Using GC boolits without gascheck?

[Fzr1000]

Hello together,
I’m not very experienced in casting, and sadly my English is very bad too, so I can’t read and understand much of the threads here😔.
So, sorry if this is a question you already answered thousand times already.

Could you please tell me if there would be problems in shooting GC-bullets without using a gascheck?

I would like to try the 300grs Lee .452 bullet in my Alaskan by casting with my ~20 BNH mix of Linotype and Range Lead.
If needed I could go higher with the BNH, that would be not difficult.

Or is this a bad idea and I should buy a Mold which is built for casting Plain Base bullets (like Accurate Molds offers)?
Lee Molds are really cheap here, about 40€, and the other manufacturers are three to four times more expensive.

[Froogal]

I am not nearly as experienced as others on this forum, but I really think you will get better results with a plain based bullet, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with LEE molds. That is ALL I have ever used, and I am pretty much self-taught.

[405grain]

Fzr1000: Usually you will get better accuracy using gas checks on bullets that are designed for them. You can use cast bullets without gas checks, but you will probably need to keep velocity low to prevent leading. Years ago I tried cast bullets in a 45-70 without the gas checks. At 1300 fps there's no problem, but once I got up to 1400 fps and above there was problems with bore leading. If you can try it, powder coating might help in this regard, as it may prevent this from happening.

Harder alloys don't always prevent leading. The bullet needs to expand just a little bit on firing so that it seals the bore. Leading happens when hot gases leak past the bullet because it didn't seal the bore. These hot, high velocity gases vaporize some of the lead off of the bullet. This vapor then condenses on the inside of the barrel. Once there's some lead on the inside of the barrel it will gall against the bullets that get shot through that bore and wipe more lead into the barrel. This will build up fast and leave the bullets with ragged edges and poor accuracy. Using harder and harder alloys will prevent the bullets from expanding and sealing the bore.

You need to balance the hardness of the alloy so that it will resist the pressures acting on it by the burning powder, while at the same time sealing the bore. Bullet fit is also important. The standard answer is to have the bullet about .001" above the groove diameter of the barrel. More experienced casters try to match their cast bullets with the throat of the chamber, but because your just starting out I suggest that you try sizing your bullets to just above groove diameter. Also, because you are new at this and said that your English isn't good, I used the word "bullets" so you wouldn't become confused. Lots of bullet casters refer to them as "boolits".

[GregLaROCHE]

I use powder coated GC type boolits all the time without the GCs. You may be able to modify your current mold to make it cast plain based boolits. They will just be slightly heavier.

[Daekar]

I don't have any gas check molds myself, but I have read posts from many people that get good results when they powdercoat bullets which were originally intended for use with gas checks. If you are interested in powdercoating, I would try it. If you're using traditional lube, I would say you're probably going to be frustrated.

[MT Gianni]

Lee molds have soft enough aluminum that removing the check area is not that difficult. A good machine shop should be able to ream that out. It can be done with a drill press, the problem is truing it up exactly.

[dogmower]

FWIW, most loads under 1300-1400 FPS will shoot ok with or without a GC. Above that, accuracy will deteriorate. I shoot some cast loads in the 30-06, 303 Brit, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Argentine mauser, 7 and 8mm mausers, etc. at around 2200 FPS with great accuracy and no leading, but a GC is definitely needed. Cast them hard and big and powder coat if you can. That will give you the best chance for good accuracy. 405grain's post covers most of this as well.

[Fzr1000]

Is it the speed that makes a gc necessary?
Or is it the pressure?

I use my bullets in my Ruger Alaskan with only 2,5“ barrel length, there I never will exceed 1200 fps with the heavy bullets.
With the 240grs XTP I got actually 1400 fps by using VV N105, but I will switch to Lovex DO37.2 (Acc 9 is the same I heard), so with 300 - 360 grs there 1200 fps will be the maximum I think.

[gwpercle]

Your bhn is way too hard . You will get better results with a softer boolit .
Yes you can shoot them without the gas check installed ... but they will do better if the bhn is 10 or 11 . Large caliber boolits don't need hardness , you will want to shoot them 1,000 - 1,200 fps maximum without the gas check and you want them softer so they will slug-up and fill the bore .
Even if you install the gas check , hold the velocity to about 1,200 - 1,400 fps you still will do better with a bhn of 10 or 11 .

All my shooting , handgun and 30 cal rifle is done with a bhn 8 alloy (50-50 mix of clip on wheel weights (bhn 9) and pure lead (bhn 5) ... if the velocity is under 1,000 fps I use plain base boolits .
If velocity is +1,000 fps I use a gas check boolit .
I have several moulds and do not have to shoot gas check boolits without their checks ... many do and good results can be had by adjusting : velocity , alloy hardness , lubricant or coating .

It's not hard to convert a Lee aluminum mould from gas check to plain base ... a fellow member used the small blade of his pocket knife to carefully shave and remove the gas check step out from the molds base . He said he went slow and removed tiny slivers of aluminum untill the gas check was turned into a plain base mould .
Gary

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If I were shooting 45 colt (book loads), I would save the lino and just use 100% range scrap and there would be no problems shooting without a GC.
If you are shooting 454 casull (or 45 colt with ruger only loads), then I'd add enough Lino to the range scrap so the BHN is around 15 and I would use a GC.

With all that said, Honestly, you can load them anyway you want. You might have some problems, or you might not. There is just so many other factors involved, that it's too difficult to predict specific problems. Just know that a GC will generally improve accuracy, if that's one of your desires?

[rintinglen]

I have found that most of the time, shooting a gas-check bullet without the gas check results in about a 25% increase in group size over a similar boolit that was not designed for a gas check. It will also group larger than the same bullet with gas check. However, for many uses, the additional cost and time aren't justified for the improvement in accuracy.

[45DUDE]

You can have the gas check milled off if not going over 1200fps. I did it on a Lee 310 grain 44 cal. mold and works fine. You can also get a machine shop to ream the mold down to the first lube groove. I have photos but can't load on this forum since I got a new computer. We are using the 310 in a Freedom arms revolver.

[gwpercle]

I was thinking about your post and all the different variables that enter into getting good group sizes , gas checks and boolit moulds being hard / impossible to get , what we know for a fact that does / doesn't work ... and the truth is the only way to see if something works is to try it .

Take the boolits you have , without the gas checks , use the powder you have and find a moderate or starting load , set up a 50 yard target and shoot what you got ... it just may be the best thing since cold beer !

Gary

[littlejack]

Fzr1000: Welcome to the forum Sir.
I have a LEE 452-230 tc mould I bought a few years ago. Unfortunately for me, it is a bevel base design. I DON'T LIKE BEVEL BASE BOOLITS. The biggest issue for me, is that when sizing, the bullet lube fills the void around the perimeter of the boolit base when being sized. Then upon removing the boolit, the lube sticks to the base and needs to be cleaned off before loading. So, I wound up removing the bevel base section of the mould with a "small" "very sharp" pocket knife, and a set of magnifier glasses. Of course this will only work on an aluminum mould. You could do this with your moulds as well, just takes a little patience. Another thing I have been experimenting with, is coating my commercial "bevel base" cast boolits with Lee Liquid Alox. This is definitely stopping the bore leading so far in what I have shot in my testing. Oh by the way. If you decide to remove the gc section from your mould, you might remove a little to much material. No worries, when you size the boolit, it will be sized to the proper diameter.
Regards
P.S. Yes, you should cut back on your BHN.

[Fzr1000]

Thank you so much for all your help!
First of all I reduced the hardness of my lead down to ~13 bnh.
Testing my absolutely first selfmade boolits (selfmade=boolits, buyed=bullets, correct?) yesterday out of my Ruger Alaskan, worked ok for me.

All my first-made boolits are too hard with ~22 bnh, they will go back there way to the cooking pot.

After reading the last post here (if it’s too much of cutting away from the mold the calibration tool will do the work and the boolits can be used after the calibration) I decided to test the modification of the mold.

So the Lee 452-300 RF with the double cavities is ordered, let’s have a look if it will work fine.

Sorry for my baby-like english again, hope you can understand what the meaning of my lines should be.
I try my best, but writing such special stuff in a foreign language is really hard.

[Jack Stanley]

The short answer is yes it can be done rather easy and it doesn't take a great deal of experimentation .

Jack

[Land Owner]

Q1.) Do you plan to shoot cast boolits fast?
Q2.) Are you shooting targets, hunting game, or competing for accuracy?

Knowing what you are trying to accomplish might help us help you.

Self defense - no human on Earth can run 900 fps. A fast boolit is not necessary, but accuracy is.
Hunting - dead is dead. It does not matter to the animal if the boolit was fast or slow. Accuracy counts.
Targets/competing - accuracy wins, not speed of the boolit.

Practice, practice, practice, makes perfect. A big hole in the right place beats a lot of holes in the wrong places.

Speed doesn't kill. It is the sudden stop at the end.

[charlie b]

And don't worry about your English. You are doing far better than some who are natives. :)

[Fzr1000]

Q1.) Do you plan to shoot cast boolits fast?
Q2.) Are you shooting targets, hunting game, or competing for accuracy?

Knowing what you are trying to accomplish might help us help you.

Self defense - no human on Earth can run 900 fps. A fast boolit is not necessary, but accuracy is.
Hunting - dead is dead. It does not matter to the animal if the boolit was fast or slow. Accuracy counts.
Targets/competing - accuracy wins, not speed of the boolit.

Practice, practice, practice, makes perfect. A big hole in the right place beats a lot of holes in the wrong places.

Speed doesn't kill. It is the sudden stop at the end.

Poorly here where I life self Defence I absolutely prohibited and you will go to jail for long years if you would have a gun on your belt outside of a shooting hall.
I’m really sad not to live in a free country like the USA.
The laws are such strange, they go harder and harder every year, our politicians must be in fear of their citizens as hell.
Only bad and corrupt politicians try to take away the guns from their citizens because they are in fear that the people will defend themselves against the politic the „big ones“ do.
It’s a really big dream to go to the USA to work and live there, believe me.
But I’m sure there‘s no place for me to work, so it will stay a dream forever.

But back to topic:
No self defence.
Maybe sometimes hunting (only „finishing shots“ are allowed with handguns, normal hunting is only allowed with long rifles longer than 60cm)
Mostly it’s target shooting for fun.
My Alaskan is only my „fun gun“ to get a real heavy hit onto the wrist, distance to target is maximum 25 meters.

My selfmade 255grs PowderCoating HardCast Boolit (Lee) I loaded in front of 28 grs Lovex DO37.2 witch is the same as Accurate No.9.
There it travels to target with 450m/s, that’s about 1475 fps.
That’s my absolute maximum load, with this loading I have sticky cases that must be pushed out of the gun one after one.
With 26,5grs I can use the extractor for all six cases together.

[PAndy]

If you are going to push bullets fast, most folks will suggest the gas checks. We have had some good luck with checks off but our loads are under 1500 fps and powder coated.current load development is two very heavy cast bullets in a .357 rifle. One bullet shows a good improvement with GC, the other has not. So try and see .

[charlie b]

I think you will like the Lee bullet. But, since your velocity will be higher, I would suggest gas checks and/or powder coat.

If you can find someone capable, the Lee molds can be machined to make them a plain base. But, I would still suggest powder coating for higher velocities.

Something else to think about. "In the old days" we used polyethylene wads behind magnum bullets without gas checks. They were about 2mm thick and cut to a bit larger than bore, a tight fit in the case. The wad was placed in the mouth of the case and the bullet pushed it the rest of the way. The wads protected the base from powder gases.

[Land Owner]

Gathering facts:
Ruger Alaskan with 2.5" barrel
255gr Boolit
28 grs Lovex DO37.2 with hard case extraction
26.5 grs, same powder, no hard case extraction

Is your caliber 454 Casull???? Please confirm.


https://explosia.cz/app/uploads/2016/11/reloading_Lovex_EN.pdf suggests similar "burn rate" to Accurate #9 but provides NO LOADS for 454 Casull.

From where did you take your powder charge recommendations?

[Fzr1000]

I confirm.

Ruger Alaskan
2,5“ Barrel
.454 Casull

Have looked after loading datas in Forums and in the Lee Handbook.

What’s wrong with my loading?

[Fzr1000]

Btw., QuickLoad, which I’m using since about 10 years also told me that I’m ok with the pressure.
QL shows 3400 bar, that’s fine in .454.
No pressure signs at all.
QL shows about a little under 32grs of DO37.2 as a max load, but I don’t want to go Full House with the light 255grs.

[Kosh75287]

And don't worry about your English. You are doing far better than some who are natives. :)

I agree with this. You write English far better than some people who learned it as a child.

[Land Owner]

What’s wrong with my loading?

I am no Casull guy and I do not have any specific data, but I do have a Safety concern. The Explosia CZ Mfg's link above shows no loads for 454 Casull, though it does state that it can be used in 454 Casull.


D037.2
High density, double base, ball propellant similar to Accurate No. 9 is most suitable for .44 Magnum. This propellant gives excellent velocities for the pressures generated and with less flash than other comparable powders. It is intended for use in large capacity handgun cartridges (.357, .41, .44 Magnum and .454 Casull).
What the link does show is 45 Colt and 44 Mag, which got me to thinking and trying to compare those to the capability of 454 Casull handguns.

HANDGUN LOADS

45 Colt
250 gr. L (FN) boolit
DO 37.2 (grains)
Min........Max
15.4-----18.5

44 Mag.
240 gr. SP [jacketed] bullet
DO 37.2 (grains)
Min........Max
18.5-----20.1

When I compare those loads to one of several JACKETED BULLET manuals, I see the following:

Hornady 7th Ed.

45 Colt
250 gr. Jacketed HP
AA No. 9 (grains)
Min........Max
7.7-------10.4

[about twice the load of DO37.2 for cast]

44 Mag.
240 gr. Jacketed HP
AA No. 9 (grains)
Min........Max
16.3-----21.3

[which includes the DO 37.2 jacketed bullet load above]

454 Casull
240 gr. Jacketed HP
AA No. 9 (grains)
Min........Max
29.4-----32.6

People a lot smarter than me developed QuickLoad and you have already experienced "hard to extract" cases at an AA No. 9 load of 28 gr. for a 255 gr. cast boolit, which approaches the range of jacketed bullets per Hornady. I point to the less than convincing published data and ask whether you were above the Max. threshold for AA No. 9 and a 255 gr. cast boolit?

If wrong, I'll take my "beating" and shut up.

[cobia]

I may be pushing a Lee C452-300-RF gas checked and powder coated a bit fast. I use wheel weight quenched from mold and quenched from oven, Add GC when sizing (same day as cast) as they get harder to size if you wait a couple days with .452 Lee push through die with a touch of imperial lube. A little higher BHN on my part may be better. No sticky fired cases. All is well after a few hundred at 1,550fps out of Ruger SRH 454 casull 9.5". Much has been written about (caution) of reduced loads if using H-110 or W 296 powders and primer choice! Trim length is important, as well as proper tight roll crimp, to prevent boolit jump from cartridges remaining in cylinder. If using Hornady XTP's go with the 240gr (Mag) or 300gr (Mag), non Mag's are not recommended, thinner jackets. XTP's Is all I have used so far other than my cast. Hornady 240's are brutal at top end...

[Fzr1000]

Hello @Land Owner,

you have the same load data I found for .454 Casull, which tells 32grs as maximum weight of DO37.2 /ACC No.9
So, from the data sheet I’m wide under the minimum load.
And, DO37.2 isn’t known as critical at reduced loads like H110, so I don’t understand why the 28grs-Ammo is so hard to extract after shooting.

Btw., the same powder i use for .357 Mag, there I use fullhouse loads (14grs to 180grs at 390m/s and 11,3grs to 230grs BowlingPinBullets at 330m/s) without any problems in the S&W 627-0.
So I’m really sure the powder is ok and not a much to fast charge.

[BLAHUT]

You can use. You can go softer lead. Keep fps down around 1200. You may find loss of accercy, a little, or with lower fps may tighten up groups. You target results will show you the way.

[cobia]

Fzr, MD Smith was my go to guy in the past for 454 info. He has since passed away and his web site is now being carried on by another fellow under another name/link.
You might want to check his data which is now at reloadammo.com For some reason the link can take a while to load..
Just about every load you can imagine... https://reloadammo.com/reloading-the-454-casull/

[downzero]

Thank you so much for all your help!
First of all I reduced the hardness of my lead down to ~13 bnh.
Testing my absolutely first selfmade boolits (selfmade=boolits, buyed=bullets, correct?) yesterday out of my Ruger Alaskan, worked ok for me.

All my first-made boolits are too hard with ~22 bnh, they will go back there way to the cooking pot.

After reading the last post here (if it’s too much of cutting away from the mold the calibration tool will do the work and the boolits can be used after the calibration) I decided to test the modification of the mold.

So the Lee 452-300 RF with the double cavities is ordered, let’s have a look if it will work fine.

Sorry for my baby-like english again, hope you can understand what the meaning of my lines should be.
I try my best, but writing such special stuff in a foreign language is really hard.

I shoot the Lee 300 without a gas check (powder coated) all the time.

Your English is fine. I'm not sure what you're worried about. We're not like the French--perfection is not even expected. Plenty of Americans speak much more broken English than anything you are saying here.

[Fzr1000]

Fzr, MD Smith was my go to guy in the past for 454 info. He has since passed away and his web site is now being carried on by another fellow under another name/link.
You might want to check his data which is now at reloadammo.com For some reason the link can take a while to load..
Just about every load you can imagine... https://reloadammo.com/reloading-the-454-casull/

Thanks a lot for this page.
On reloadammo.com there’s 24,0grs the maximum with ACC No.9 with a 255grs Lead SWC!
There I’m wide overloaded!

But, for an 315grs Lead Bullet there are 26,8grs the max for ACC 9 too…
Like that I’m very well with my weight.

I think till the ammo is pressure checked by the Beschussamt I have strictly slow down.

[Land Owner]

Good and Very Good. Safety first. Fun second.

I had an itch. I scratched and "missed it by 'that' much" (no 'smoking gun' data) but the point was made. I'll shut up now...

[Fzr1000]

Good and Very Good. Safety first. Fun second.

I had an itch. I scratched and "missed it by 'that' much" (no 'smoking gun' data) but the point was made. I'll shut up now...

Sorry Mr. Land Owner,

but now I’m not able to understand what the meaning of your line is ��.
I don’t understand „sarcasm“ or „humorous lines“, I only can translate words by their „real meaning“.

The first line with security and fun is understandable.
Sorry, but could you (or anyone) please reply?
Reloading and casting is too difficult to gamble with half understood informations.

[Land Owner]

I found no specific data, in either my manuals or the Explosia Mfg's data, to prove to you that I believed you were over the maximum load of DO 37.2 for a 255 grain cast boolit [which equals "I had an itch."].

I posted the data I found, [which equals "I scratched"].

The data I posted was not convincing, [which equals "missed it by 'that' much" (no 'smoking gun' data)].

My concern, my posted data, and the M.D.Smith link by cobia, got you to look at 454 Casull loads with safety as the goal. You concluded you were overloaded [which equals "the point was made."].

The remainder, "I'll shut up now", is self-explanatory and bears no ill will toward you.

[cobia]

Frz, BTW, you seem to be a good dude, I would welcome you here verses the thousands of bumbs walking across the Texas boarder! Our current administration is essentially paying people to be non working low life *** and just want their liberal votes. There are plenty of business's begging for people who want to work!

[softpoint]

I have removed the gascheck step in a Lee mold, and removed a bevel base from a Lee mold with an exacto knife. Both molds cast and made perfect bullets afterwards. Just use care, and any tiny imperfection will be ironed out by the sizer.

[mto7464]

Lee molds have soft enough aluminum that removing the check area is not that difficult. A good machine shop should be able to ream that out. It can be done with a drill press, the problem is truing it up exactly.

Yup tried drill one myself. Did not come out great. Never tested them to see if it made a difference in accuracy. Humm I smell a project I need to do.

[Land Owner]

Yup tried drill one myself. Did not come out great.
The lube sizer die will "smooth out" and "put back" some concentricity.

[Rapier]

If you test cast with and without GCs, hard cast. Load at least 5 with and 5 without GCs. Mix them all together and shoot 50 or 100 meter groups, 3 or 5 shots each group, with a scope. Tell me what you get…… I got all the bullets into the groups, with and without, and no fliers.
So the GCs are ok for longer distance or your confidence in a match, but not really crucial for accuracy.
Today, with powder coating, I use plain base moulds and PC without any gas checks. I run 2,600-2,700 feet per second without leading. And 3/10 inch at 100 meters with a 358 rifle.