158 grain 38 bullet ?

[roysha]

This thread is about cast bullets in revolvers only, mainly 6" S&Ws of several models, 38 Spec. and 357 Mag.

It seems the 158 +or- grain bullet of just about any profile, is the accepted "norm" for the 38 Spec. and 357 Mag. Is this because of tradition or are there other real reasons?

My experience has shown that anything lighter than 135 grains, is rather iffy accuracy wise. On the other hand, I have shot some 180 grain bullets that seemed to be quite accurate, but I really didn't do much with them because I felt I was giving up too much velocity, especially in the 38 Spec, plus I only had a hundred or so that a fellow gave me and I really not interested in going there.

It seems to me the actual ideal weight for accuracy and terminal performance would be in the 140-145 grain range. I have had good results with several bullets in that weight range, but once again, I did not have enough bullets to really make a fair evaluation. I am referring to the various nose styles, SWC, TC, RN, RF, etc. and not the full WC style. I use the TC style in all my auto loaders with very good results so I'm wondering if the same style would give satisfactory performance in the 38-357 revolver.

What has your personal experience with bullets in the afore mentioned weight range been?

I realize there are so many variables, sized diameter, alloy, lube, GC or plain base, and so forth, that what may work for one person won't for another. However, across the board, other people's results can at least be a guide as to what to expect.

[Thumbcocker]

Very good results with the Lee 125 rnfp in .38 special, .357, and 9mm. It shoots to sights in model 10s for me. 158 grain boolits shoot about 2" above the front sight in fixed sighted guns from my hands.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Winger Ed.]

I shoot a 158 Keith style SWC in .38 because they work so well.
I also shoot a 148DEWC. It does real well also, but seems to have less range before accuracy falls off.

Rather than try to reinvent the wheel, I got and used the molds for them out of faith that a couple of
generations of shooters had already worked out the bugs and the designs were good and well proven.

[HWooldridge]

I shoot 158 Keith from my 2” snubnose S&W because it gives the most penetration of anything I’ve tried, and it’s accurate.

[MarkP]

I have shot at 1,000's of LEE 105 SWC in my 38's. S&W M64,M14,M27,M60,637,638,642. 4.6 gr of BE and the fixed sights on my 4" & 2" M64's are right on. Also have shot several of the NOE clones of the Lyman 77 gr WC.

The 105's in my 8-3/8" M14 & M27 do not shoot as well as a 148 WC or 158 FN but still decent

The LEE 125 FN also shots good for me as well.

[Hick]

My S&W 38 Special seems to shoot best with the Lyman 358-156 (about 158 grains with my alloy) and the 148 grain DEWC. My Ruger 357 seems to like something slightly heavier (RCBS 163 grain SWC).

[Ed_Shot]

For me, the Lyman 358242 (121 gr) and its NOE clone is an absolute tack driver over Promo/Red Dot 4.2 gr in a 38 Spl case or 5.0 gr. in a .357 case using a Sicurity Six, GP 100, Blackhawk, or Mod 19. That said, I also really like the Lyman 358495 (141 gr), 358477 (150 gr.), 358156 bare-bottom (158 gr.) and 358429 (170 gr.). I pretty much stick with Promo or Unique or 2400 for 38/357 and never use GC's.

[jonp]

Several thousand though a 38sp and 357. I prefer the 140-150 weight. The 125gr can be driven hard and is good for self defense in jwords.

[jonp]

For me, the Lyman 358242 (121 gr) and its NOE clone is an absolute tack driver over Promo/Red Dot 4.2 gr in a 38 Spl case or 5.0 gr. in a .357 case using a Sicurity Six, GP 100, Blackhawk, or Mod 19. That said, I also really like the Lyman 358495 (141 gr), 358477 (150 gr.), 358156 bare-bottom (158 gr.) and 358429 (170 gr.). I pretty much stick with Promo or Unique or 2400 for 38/357 and never use GC's.

In my GP100, Blackhawk and Mod 19, 15 and 14 I will agree with the Promo load of about 4gr or so of Promo. Never use GC's either

[Thumbcocker]

For full power .357 loads the Lee 158 rnfp and 2400 are hard to beat.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

The great majority of fixed sight .38 Special service revolvers were targeted at the factory with158- grain lead ammo. A modern SWC or ogival flatnosed having a meplat larger than half of the bullet diameter gives better terminal performance than the LRN. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye is a good approximation for standard pressure loads and 4.2 grains for +P.

[Mk42gunner]

It seems the 158 +or- grain bullet of just about any profile, is the accepted "norm" for the 38 Spec. and 357 Mag. Is this because of tradition or are there other real reasons?

Yes and Yes.

158 grains is the traditional weight for the .38 Special and by default for the .357 Magnum. Fixed sight guns until very recently were regulated for that weight projectile at the nominal velocity of the round. If your gun shoots to the sights with any significant difference in loading, you are extremely lucky.

I'm not sure about S&W, but I do remember reading that Taurus regulates their .38 Special snubbies for the 125 +P JHP now. True or not, I can't say.

Robert

[MOA]

When I went looking for my "one-an-only" cast boolit mold to be used for my 38 special and 357, I settled for one of NOE's molds. Works great on either caliber, and I can play with my alloy if I want to be moving the grain weight up or down a bit if needed.

https://i.postimg.cc/J7ZsDDmh/20220429-180554.jpg (https://postimg.cc/c61xPJvq)

https://i.postimg.cc/5t5JVQFH/20220405-123705.jpg (https://postimg.cc/qt7ScRw0)

https://i.postimg.cc/sg9NwSsV/20220511-162126-1-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/dh360hhX)

https://i.postimg.cc/brQrh8zm/20220413-152128-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/D4wnr94G)

https://i.postimg.cc/0jC4ddYY/20220422-114128-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/sGvK3W0x)

[oldsalt444]

Proven loads from bullseye competition shooters who demand accuracy:
148 HBWC over 2.7 WST or 2.8 BE. Usually a 25 yd. load, but can work at 50 in some guns.
158 LRN or SWC over 4.3 Unique or 3.0-3.3 WST. Good 50 yd. load depending on bullet quality and gun.

[243winxb]

The lswc cuts a nice hole in the target for scoring. All depends what weight/ velocity the fixed sights are regulated for.

[racepres]

Several thousand though a 38sp and 357. I prefer the 140-150 weight. The 125gr can be driven hard and is good for self defense in jwords.

The 140 gr Lee SWC is Outstanding in my 5" (not 6") S&W M&P loaded to typical 4.~ Unique.. same bullet performs exceptionally well in a DW PorkChop 357.
No Other 38/357 on the Farm seems to prefer them...Preferring 158's

[contender1]

The OP has asked a question of WHY the 158 grn is the "norm" when discussing bullet weight. And many excellent posts show how well many things perform.
But to try & answer the question of why,,, we must delve into history a bit. As many calibers were being developed,, the rifling twist played a part in stabilizing a bullet. So,, once an accurate load was developed (the the standards of that time period,) and mass manufacturing followed,, many "standard" weight bullets became THE one to build guns for. I've often studied this a bit,, with a thought of "Why not rounding off the weight to 160 grns?"
Sadly,, all the answers to our questions are lost to history,, because the designers & developers are long dead.

But,, you can experiment with different weights,, to determine which bullet weight is the most accurate in your gun,, at the velocities you load,, and at the distances you shoot. Quite often,, I've experienced many firearms give superb accuracy,, at longer ranges,, with a "heavier than standard" bullet.

Isn't handgunning fun?

[lotech]

I've had very good results for years with the H&G #51 SWC at about 160 grs. in ww alloy when used in both the .38 Special and the .357, though I no longer load the latter. I never could get the lighter H&G #12B SWC, about 140 grs. or so in ww alloy to shoot as well as the #51. I have an LBT 358-180 FN mould, about 182 grs, in ww alloy. While okay in the .357, it's too much bullet for the .38 Special if you want a decent velocity. 160 gr. bullets often shoot very close to point of aim in most fixed sighted revolvers.

[oldhenry]

I like the looks of that NOE boolit that MOA shows: it looks similar to the MP" Hammer".

I get good results with the Lyman 358477, 358429 & 358432 and the MP "Hammer". Surprisingly the SAECO 158RN is very accurate. When PB was available I use 3.5 to 4.5 grains with all of them. Now I use HP-38 & WST.

Overall the 358432 is the best (for me).

[JoeJames]

The great majority of fixed sight .38 Special service revolvers were targeted at the factory with158- grain lead ammo. A modern SWC or ogival flatnosed having a meplat larger than half of the bullet diameter gives better terminal performance than the LRN. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye is a good approximation for standard pressure loads and 4.2 grains for +P.I have worked some with fixed sight revolvers - 38S&W Victory Model and the 38 Special Victory, and various S&W Hand Ejectors in 32S&W Long. I defer to Outpost75, but with a fixed rear sight and wishing to hit to point of aim you are a bit restricted. Elevation with the same weight bullet can be adjusted to a point; if the bullet is shooting too high, and increase in velocity will lower the point of impact. But at some point you can only increase the velocity by so much. So you need to measure the velocity with a good chronograph to make sure of where you are at.

[lotech]

When I went looking for my "one-an-only" cast boolit mold to be used for my 38 special and 357, I settled for one of NOE's molds. Works great on either caliber, and I can play with my alloy if I want to be moving the grain weight up or down a bit if needed.

https://i.postimg.cc/J7ZsDDmh/20220429-180554.jpg (https://postimg.cc/c61xPJvq)

https://i.postimg.cc/brQrh8zm/20220413-152128-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/D4wnr94G)

https://i.postimg.cc/0jC4ddYY/20220422-114128-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/sGvK3W0x)

I've experimented with many .38 moulds, but am unfamiliar with NOE. The bullets depicted in the photo appear to be copies of an LBT design. I've not used an LBT design of that weight, probably the ideal weight for the .38 Special or .357. Have you compared these bullets from an accuracy perspective with other .38 designs of approximately the same weight?

[MOA]

I've experimented with many .38 moulds, but am unfamiliar with NOE. The bullets depicted in the photo appear to be copies of an LBT design. I've not used an LBT design of that weight, probably the ideal weight for the .38 Special or .357. Have you compared these bullets from an accuracy perspective with other .38 designs of approximately the same weight?

Here's some info on the mold.

https://i.postimg.cc/J7XLBFDT/Screenshot-2022-02-16-09-30-20-1.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/6qCxJ7xs/Screenshot-2022-02-14-11-28-43.png (https://postimg.cc/XBNz9Yvx)

It is a plain base mold so your not going to get gas check velocities. I'm not shooting at any great distance. S&W model 13 at 25 feet. I'm using Winchester 231 in both the special and the magnum. I've not tried this boolit in a long gun but I'm thinking it would be sweet in a trapper model with a 20" or shorter barrel.

[ddixie884]

Damn good lookin bullet..........

[hc18flyer]

I have the same NOE mold for my 15-5. How much 2400 are you using in .38 Special? I just had 'DougGuy' ream my cylinder, so the boolet would chamber for me. Was planning to work up a load using CFE Pistol? Thanks, hc18flyer

[MOA]

I have the same NOE mold for my 15-5. How much 2400 are you using in .38 Special? I just had 'DougGuy' ream my cylinder, so the boolet would chamber for me. Was planning to work up a load using CFE Pistol? Thanks, hc18flyer

Flyer, I just edited the post after re-reading it and realized I had used Winchester 231 for powder, an NOT 2400. I've been loading 45acp, 38 special, 380 auto, 9mm, and 41 magnum over the past 3 weeks or so. The 2400 was used on the 41 mag. On this 38 special I've gone with a starting load of 3.6 of Win 231, partly because I'm a bit thin on small pistol primers, and I'm using Winchester small rifle instead.

What where you sizing your boolit to that would not fit your cylinder??

[hc18flyer]

I size to .358. The NOE 158 wfn has a full width section above the crimp groove, before the taper to the fp starts. My cylinder wouldn't allow that .358 full width area to chamber, it will now. I have yet to shoot them, loaded with 3.1 Clays. I have Win231/ HP 38 to use as well. hc18flyer

[MOA]

You should be in good shape then. This model 13 is a seventies vintage, maybe they were more generous with the throats back then.

[Kosh75287]

I'm not POSITIVE about this, but I think the .38 Special's development was partially in response to the poor penetration/stopping power of the .38 Long Colt (130 gr. LRN @ 770 f/s). The .38 Spl. held 1/6th more black powder, and it may have been decided to increase projectile weight by 22% to "cover both bases", I guess?
I was also told by a trustworthy source that the 158 gr. was worked out as the maximum bullet weight that could be safely (within SAAMI pressures) launched at 1000 f/s from a 6" barreled revolver. I was told this story as a youth, before the "+P" specification was adopted. I actually looked forward to better velocities from the +P factory fodder, but if I was getting it, I couldn't discern it.
Chronographing loads in 1988, the +P thing was illusory. None of the newer hotter +P rounds clocked appreciably faster than standard pressure loads. I could still get 1000 f/s with a 158 gr. LSWC, using 2400 and heavy crimp, but 2 lousy grains higher, and I couldn't break 950 f/s consistently.

That IS a very fine looking bullet, and I suspect that it will perform beautifully from .38 or .357 Magnum revolvers. I was just looking at it, wondering how it might work in a lever-action carbine.

[rintinglen]

The Army loading for the 38 Colt was a 148-150 grain boolit at a nominal 700-750 FPS. Based on samples I have seen, I doubt that they could get within 50 fps of that due to the generous barrel-cylinder gaps. Although I have read that it was designed to address stopping power problems in the Philippines, if true, that must have been done with a crystal ball, since the 38 Special was designed in 1898--several years before the after-action reports that lead to the re-adoption of the 45 caliber pistols were generated. As an aside, what gets glossed over is that pistols and revolvers continued to have issues stopping assailants even after the 45 was adopted. There was a fascinating historical research piece published in Peterson's Handguns back in the 80's that found instances in 1918 where pistols had failed to do what they ought.

But now, back to the 38 Special, most likely, S&W designed it to be bigger and more powerful than the Colt Cartridge while still able to use the shorter weaker cartridge as a sales ploy. The early 1899 and 1902 revolver models were marked "38 S&W Special and US Service Cartridge."

Nowadays, manufacturers use "magnum" to drum up interest. Buy a (327, 357, 44, 460 etc.) magnum and you can still shoot the lesser cartridges, but the older, shorter chambers won't shoot the "new and improved" version. Back then, the key words were "Special" and "Express", so if you wanted the greater power of the "Special", you needed to buy a S&W, at least until the Colt version hit the stands later in the early 20th century. A 5% heavier bullet at 15% more velocity, 158 grains at 855 fps nominal--such a deal. But that was the standard 38 cartridge and most of the 4.5 million odd, fixed-sight, K frames built in the 20th century were factory sighted in for that cartridge,--not to mention lord only knows how many Colt, Ruger, and countless other revolvers.

[Soundguy]

My main 38/357 load is a 158 gr swc.
I also make 158gr lrn, 158 swc hp gc, and 148g swc. I don't shoot anything in 38/357 under those weights. ( I probably still have a few leftover j-words on the shelf from pre casting days.. But I don't use them anymore. Probably should load them all up and clean up shelf space.

The only j-word I do load is for 5.7-28... And that's going to be subletting now that I have a 40gr gc mp mold.

[Char-Gar]

There are too many differenced between individual revolvers and various revolver makers. The rifling twist varies which will have an effect on the accuracy of various bullet weights. The cylinder throat dimensions will vary as well, which will have an effect on bullet sizing diameter and accuracy.

That said, I don't fight history. For range use, I go with the old standard Lyman 358311 RN. Loaded over 3.0 grains of BE it will shoot to the sights of Colt and Smith and Wesson revolvers and be easy on the older pre-war guns. For field and social purposes I load a full wadcutter over 3.5 Bullseye.

That is it....period.

[Rick R]

I size to .358. The NOE 158 wfn has a full width section above the crimp groove, before the taper to the fp starts. My cylinder wouldn't allow that .358 full width area to chamber, it will now. I have yet to shoot them, loaded with 3.1 Clays. I have Win231/ HP 38 to use as well. hc18flyer

I ran into this with the same NOE 360-158-WFN-T4 boolit sized .359” in used magnum brass in my old Security Six and new GP-100. When I used shorter new Starline brass the problem went away. Now over 2400 accuracy is great and I’m not getting any leading in either revolver.

FWIW, the Hodgdon web site has 158gr data for CFE Pistol that’s pretty impressive and my chrono shows 950+fps with this boolit from .38 brass in a 2 1/2” GP-100.

[gwpercle]

158 grains is still with us because ...it works !
actually any boolit weight from 155 grs. to 160 grs. works well . The weight allows for enough velocity and the velocity allows for decent terminal performance and penetration .
Accuracy of those bullet weights are excellent .
I bought a Keith 170 grain SWC mould thinking it would be the best thing since sliced bread ... I was disappointed in accuracy ...Too long ? Too heavy? I don't know ...
160 grain. wadcutter (358432) is the accuracy champ at 50 yds. and hits hard .
The wide flat nose design also a winner ... NOE makes both of these WC and WFN designs and if you are into 38 special / 357 magnum shooting ...you realy need to try these out .
Gary

[murf205]

That's a good looking NOE boolit and Swede does a great job making them. Here is a nearly same boolit from Accurate Molds and it drops exactly 160 grs with 20-1.300521300522
It shoots great fron my 38 S&W model 14 and my 357's as well. The Lyman 358477 SWC drops at 150 grs and is just as accurate from everything I shot it with. I never heard a complaint about the Lyman not performing well...ever.

[buckwheatpaul]

I favor the Lyman 358429 mould....4 cavity Keith style bullet. Shoots well in38 or 357!

[anothernewb]

I've lost count of how many 158 SWC Keith style bullets driven by 4.0g of 231 have gone through my revolvers. I have yet to find a revolver that doesn't shoot that accurately at 25 yards and under. I'm sure I could eek out a powder/boolit combo that might perform better for each firearm. But nothing that is perhaps so consistent across all.

Granted that's a target load. but I drive a 158 jacketed behind a charge of 6.2g HS6 (38) or 16.5g H110/296 (357) for the hot rounds and accuracy remains.

That being said. 125 grains driven by about 3gr TB remains the softest shooting load I've ever found.

[FergusonTO35]

Every .38 revolver I own will shoot a 150-164 grain boolit to the sights. The ability to use a large for caliber boolit is this cartridge's biggest strength, and pretty much any powder will work just fine. Going to lighter slugs is pretty much the same thing as a really mild 9mm. You can certainly do it if that's your thing, but I don't see much point in it.

[MT Gianni]

There was a cracking issue in the forcing cone area of some K frames. It the suspicion was that 110 and 125 gr bullets with ball powders were sandblasting the face of the cone and eroding it. The longer 158 gr bullets kept the barrel-cylinder gap filled longer until the powder burn was further along and resisted this erosion and cracking.
I always found the 158's to shoot to point of aim with fixed sights at 25 yards.

[Frosty Boolit]

I thought that the 158 in .35 diameter gave the ideal sectional density. The same way 230 does in .45

[LAH]

MOA has a great bullet there & it is standard weight. It works great in my stuff. I use it in HP form for varmints.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/NOE%20360-160-WFN-HP/.highres/20150302_092655.jpg

[derek45]

LEE 158

https://i.imgur.com/Gvb4GPP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/COk0Pdl.jpg

[MOA]

Good looking derek.

[Hi-Speed]

Personally, I’ve always liked bullets of 150-170 gr range in my 38 Specials and 357 Magnums. I like 158 gr Speer and Hornady 158 gr swaged bullets in 38 Spl +P using Power Pistol (5.6 grs) or Unique (5.2 grs). In 38-44 high velocity loadings (used only in my Ruger 357 Magnums) I like the Lyman 160 gr 358156 GC (crimped in lower groove) or Lyman 170 gr 358429, both over 11.0 grs 2400. In 357 Mag cases I like either the Lyman 150 gr 358477 (13.5 grs 2400) or the 358429 (11.0 grs 2400, crimped over front driver band (1.553” OAL) an old habit that followed me from days using SW Mod 28s with their shorter cylinders, and that is the OAL used for this bullet in Lyman cast manuals).