Redding's new policy - Make junk

[cbrick]

This thread also posted in "Casting Equipment".

Redding products in the toilet? They doubled their prices on most everything and out-sourced quality off-shore.

Well, are they in the toilet? . . . I bought their micrometer adjustable case trimmer. The cutter head was so far off a straight wall case (357) couldn't be cut any closer than .007" to square. Sent it back 5 or 6 weeks ago, haven't received it back yet.

Bought their case neck thickness gauge, between .002" and .003" off center so there is no way to know within .002" and .003" just how thick your necks are. It's now in the junk drawer, didn't bother sending it back yet just because the letter I would send with it wouldn’t be very polite.

Bought their T-7 turret press and three additional die plates (four total plates). The ram and thus the shell holder and the cartridge case are not centered (aligned) on the die. Run a case into a sizer die and watch your case tip over to the side by up to .015"+. Took it back to the store, they replaced the three extra die plates and there was no improvement. Took the whole thing back to the store and they replaced the press and all four die plates. Neither press with any of the 8 die plates is aligned. I have three days swapping dies in the die plates, changing the plates and screwing in countless dies and several hundred dollars invested and the entire thing is junk. I called Redding customer service and was told that “at least I didn’t have to call China or India”. Really? Well great! Now I fully believe in buying American but what good is it when the product is crap.

Bought SAECO #446 four cavity mould. All four bullets that drop from it are a different length to the extent that seated bullets vary considerably. Four different diameters and none are round, not even close to round. Four different bullet weights by 8 grains.

Bought SAECO # 441 four cavity, special order from Midway and waited 60 days for it (it arrived today) and it’s worse than #446. One cavity has a center band that mikes .4245”; all four base bands vary from .4268” to .432”. My Ruger has .431” throats.

Neither mould is useable, $132.00 plus $10.00 shipping for each and I have nearly $300.00 worth of paper weights. Add this $300.00 to the $350.00 for a junk press and extra plates plus the trimmer and the case neck gauge and I have about $900.00 invested in pure Redding Crapola. All five of these Redding Products were purchased new in the past 6 months.

Any company can mess up and let something slip past quality control but it's not a mistake when five straight products are all junk, it's intentional. Redding used to be the premiere reloading tool . . . No longer; they now specialize in manufacturing extremely expensive and useless junk. I shudder thinking about recent Redding die purchases.

Rick

[Three44s]

I would opt for the Lee Classic Turret ...... a lot less money and it will be RIGHT!

AND for molds ....... try LBT

Three 44s

[cbrick]

hhmmm . . . LBT? Yep, I have them, and NEI, Lyman, Hotch, RCBS, Lachmiller and more. About 60+ moulds in all. I've got 20 or more SAECO's from before Redding bought SAECO to the present. I have two bad SAECO's . . . The last two.

Rick

[azrednek]

That is terrible news to say the least. Pardon the colloquialism but please say "it ain't so"!! I don't have allot of Redding tools but those I do have are absolutely some of the best.

The two Saeco moulds I have are top notch, quality on par with 1960's Lyman. I've cranked out tens if not hundreds of thousands of powder charges from my Redding measurer. I wouldn't trade it for a brand new measurer of any brand. My very old Redding scale, so old it is oil and not magnetic dampened but it what I use to verify the accuracy of other scales.

I would like to believe your experiences are a fluke but after several items I can surmise somebody is bleeding the assets out of the Redding name. Reminiscent of Winchester in the 70's when they turned out some of the biggest pieces of junk I've ever handled. Hopefully Redding, like Winchester after becoming USRA, brought back the quality synonymous with their name. Might take an "under new management" approach to get Redding back on track.

[Geraldo]

Sounds like they made (or had made) a bad run of turrets. I bought a T-7 last summer and everything is true. I've been looking for a spare turret and they're are none to be found. I thought it was part of the post-election frenzy, but now I'm wondering if they were recalled.

[monadnock#5]

I think the term boycott should be discussed in this matter. I know, impossible to enforce amongst the membership, and for some, Redding is the only name on the shelves. However, 7000 voices have to count for something.

The Redding products I own are some of the best, but I won't buy more until cb has $900.00 worth of Redding products that he's proud to call his own. What say ye all, aye or nae?

[Bret4207]

I posted a reply in another forum Rick posted this in. My Mom is friends with the owner of Redding, says he's an above reproach kinda guy. I think before we go too far Rick needs to make a phone call and talk to a supervisor there. Could be a problem they aren't aware of or something they will correct ASAP.

[flutedchamber]

I have used Redding products years ago with great results, but that has absolutely no bearing on your horrible experience. I would just like to say that what happened to you sounds like an experience that I had with RCBS dies about 25 years ago. Their handling sounds like what you got from Redding, and needless to say I have bought NOTHING from RCBS since, nor will I ever buy their products again.

You have done more than you should have had to. Return the part and follow up with a phone call. If I may, I would like to recommend some steps that have helped me in similar situations in the past.

1. Keep a log of all events. Sales slips, shipping receipts.

2. Phone calls. Number called. Date and time. Who talked to. 99.999% of the time you have to ask for a name. If it's a common first name, I ask for their last name. If they are reluctant to give the whole last name, get the first 3 letters.

3. If you are promised an answer in 3 days, ask for a time to call back and who to talk to. Apply step #2.

4. If you get no satisfaction from phone communication, follow up your calls with a letter to the head of the company concerning the treatment you are getting. Supply names, dates, time and all info gathered. I HAVE FOUND THAT GETTING SOMEONE HIGH UP ON THE LADDER INVOLVED GETS THINGS SOLVED FAST.

To make things easier I have taken to recording my phone calls in such instances. Not only do you get the information that you need, but it gives an accurate depiction of the persons attitude. Just remember it also records your attitude, so be polite and courteous.

The taped conversation came in handy when I had to get a furnace part replaced under warranty. To say that the people I encountered on the phone were ignorant would be an understatement. Two weeks and 6 phone calls later I sent a letter to the head of the company along with a tape of all of my conversations with the personnel.

The part was shipped to me next day air, along with a check for $50 for my aggravation and an apology from the company head along with a note stating that 3 people were fired for their actions, or lack thereof.

If you go thru all of this and get no satisfaction, don't hesitate to lodge a complaint with the BBB in the hometown of the business that you are dealing with.

I wish you luck in your adventure. Hopefully you will not need it.

[Leadforbrains]

I have been seriously eyeballin the saeco molds in anticipation of my tax refund check. I am going to wait and see how Redding adresses this problem. If it were me having this problem I would take Brets advice to contact them straight away and tell them whats wrong to give them a chance to make it right. All the manufacturers of gun and reloading equipment are feeling the crunch of the increased demand due the Obamapanic buying. No excuse to let bad stuff out the door, but it seems like it is happening all over.

[BD]

I'm sorry to here of this. All of the cartridges I use on a regular basis are built on Reading dies. I'm glad I bought them when I did.

They did the custom sizer for my high power service rifle and it is as near perfect as any die I've ever used. The sizer that came with their set of .223 competition bushing dies wouldn't touch the shoulder on the cases from my DCM. I sent it back with 5 fired cases and $25 and they made me a die that would do the job.

In my opinion the past good work by the company should at least earn them a call to the owner prior to any group action. However, If it's true that they've gone to Chi-com manufacturing then I'm done dealing with them.

BD

[Geraldo]

To make things easier I have taken to recording my phone calls in such instances. Not only do you get the information that you need, but it gives an accurate depiction of the persons attitude. Just remember it also records your attitude, so be polite and courteous.


Some states require that both parties consent to taping a telephone conversation. Even if you live is a state that requires only one party consent, I would be careful if you're calling a company in a state that requires both parties to consent.

I think a call for a boycott is uncalled for at this time. First, we've heard only one side of the story, and it may yet be cleared up by Redding. Second, it's hard to boycott what is already backordered into eternity.

[flutedchamber]

[QUOTE=Geraldo;477107]Some states require that both parties consent to taping a telephone conversation. Even if you live is a state that requires only one party consent, I would be careful if you're calling a company in a state that requires both parties to consent.


When I looked into taping a phone call I was told (at least in NJ) that it is legal if you are part of the conversation and it is on your own phone, ie not wiretapping.

[cbrick]

I have called them once already and will again at 5 AM Monday west coast time. I spent most of yesterday trying to get a good bullet from my latest piece of Redding cast iron crap and they were closed (2 PM here is 5 PM east coast time) or I would have called then. When I talked with them a couple of weeks ago I got a canned speech about how everything is American made and I didn't have to call India and besides, they only have a 1 tenth of 1 percent return rate. The store at the range where I bought the press has called them 2 or 3 times already plus it cost me $40.00 to ship a useless lump of cast iron to the opposite coast.

If they really have a 1 tenth of one percent return rate can you imagine how bad my luck would have to be to get 5 straight (6 if you count it as both presses) bad products? Redding is peddling junk on what was their good name.

This is a bit depressing to me, I have been a huge fan of Redding in the past. Their stuff did cost a bit more (2X now) but you had the very best tool you could get. I have over 20 SAECO moulds, many different calibers of dies that all say Redding on them. All top notch tools and this is why these last five purchases were all Redding.

Rick

[cbrick]

Bret, I'd like to make a suggestion if you don't mind, call your Mom and ask her to call her friend and ask him to read these threads. If she would do this and he reads this perhaps something would change.

6 straight bad products is not an accident. One bad product is an "oops" sorry bout that. 6 straight with 5 different tools is peddling junk.

Rick

[Recluse]

I'll second the suggestion that the owner or higher-up(s) at Redding read this thread. They would be absolute fools not to. There is no faster or cheaper way to gleam customer and consumer opinion, feedback and experience than by scanning internet forums such as this one.

In fairness, you can often take a lot of what you read with a grain of salt. But it would only take someone from Redding or Dillon or Lee or RCBS less than ten minutes to realize the caliber (yes, it is an intentional pun [smilie=1:) of shooter and reloader that hangs around here.

THESE are the customers that Redding, Dillon, Lee, et al need to do whatever possible and/or necessary to keep happy because THESE are the shooters/reloaders that others in the hobby/sport look to for opinion and guidance. As such, the influence such groups have is almost immeasurable



However, If it's true that they've gone to Chi-com manufacturing then I'm done dealing with them.

BD

Agreed, and I include India/Pakistan in there as well. People can laugh, but Made in USA is a big selling point for me and it is why I continue to gravitate more and more to solely buying Lee and Dillon products.

Maybe a Sticky on "Made in the USA" with updated information?

:coffeecom

[mtgrs737]

I have been telling folks that the Redding Boss is the way to go on a reloading press ever since I heard that RCBS when chi-com. Talk about being mis-informed! When will Americans stand up for themselves? I always look for the made in America products, however it is increasingly hard to find if not impossible. In my opinion manufacturing = prosperity and strength for a nation, do we really want to hand it to the Chi-com's.

Keep calling, writing Redding about your products, they should make it right with you. They may be working out the dimensional problems with the manufacturer now. I have been considering some Saeco mould purchases, but I have heard that they most always cast on the small side but it seems that may be only part of their problems. Thanks for posting, I wish you luck with your product problems.

[flutedchamber]

Agreed, and I include India/Pakistan in there as well. People can laugh, but Made in USA is a big selling point for me and it is why I continue to gravitate more and more to solely buying Lee and Dillon products.

Maybe a Sticky on "Made in the USA" with updated information?

:coffeecom

"Made in USA should mean only one thing...made in the United States of America by United States citizens. Anything sold in the US shoud have to be tagged with a country of origin. Let the buyer decide.

As of late it seems to be more common for companies to drop quality and trade on the good name that they made for themselves 20 or more years ago. As soon as they lose enough sales they will wise up...or not.

[hemiallen]

My FIL is going to Oroville to get some OLD RCBS dies replaced, they are 1985 44 mag carbides that is splitting cases. He never reloaded with them until last fall, and we measured the sized brass and it is 0.010" undersized over his and my old non carbide dies. RCBS verified they had a bad batch, but couldn't get ALL of them off the shelves, obviously.

Here is a reply on another thread from 2007
Subject: RE: rcbs.com - Ask RCBS Form

Thank you for contacting RCBS with your concern. Most of our products
are still produced right here in our factory in Oroville CA. However,
we do purchase some items from China or other countries around the
world. Any items we source outside of our operation are closely
monitored to insure they meet our quality expectations. The only reason
we choose certain items to be produced over seas is to provide our
customers with the best possible products for the lowest possible cost,
or in other words, to give you the best value for your hard earned
dollars.

It is important for us to here from our customers and we appreciate you
taking the time to provide us with your input.

Allen

[ddeaton]

Nothing from Lee is outsourced is it?

[Buckshot]

...............I'm going to say they have nothing made overseas, but have not called and asked. I know they made a point of making sure folks knew the Classic Cast Press was made here.

..............Buckshot

[booboo1000]

Contact Dillon Reloading, their products are guaranteed for life. No questions.

[MtGun44]

Hope your problems were a fluke, but it sounds hard to believe it was.

All my Redding stuff, including my T-7 turret press have been wonderful tools
and very well made. I hope this continues and your problems are solved
soon.

Bill

[Wayne S]

Contact Dillon Reloading, their products are guaranteed for life. No questions.
DILLON should get into the mold making business

[Willbird]

DILLON should get into the mold making business


I DO like Dillon products, I own an RL550B. But not ALL their products are no BS lifetime warranty. Also they are quite pig headed about some things like expander plugs. many of us use larger than factory dia bullets, for example .432 in 44 magnum. Dillon told me I have "no need" for a .432 expander because 44 magnum uses .429 bullets.

Bill

[dromia]

I DO like Dillon products, I own an RL550B. But not ALL their products are no BS lifetime warranty. Also they are quite pig headed about some things like expander plugs. many of us use larger than factory dia bullets, for example .432 in 44 magnum. Dillon told me I have "no need" for a .432 expander because 44 magnum uses .429 bullets.

Bill

Wow Dillon are just amazing, right even when they are wrong.

Thats the attitude I got of them when I tried to buy one of their presses.

They never got my money and I got just as good if not better at less cost from somewhere else, thank you Dillon. :-D

[flutedchamber]

Not to hijack the thread, but while I will agree that Dillon is a good company, their "guarantee" now seems to be at the whim of the person who receives the call. I, and others, have had bad experiences with Dillon not standing behind their guarantee.

[Wayne S]

BACK ON TRACK GENTLEMEN lets wait to see in the problem with Redding/Saeco plays out

[omgb]

My T7 and my Redding Comp dies are all top notch, no complaints. Most of my RCBS stuff is the same way and likewise my Hornady. Now, a good bunch of my Lee stuff is very good but top notch......ehhh, not so much. Great value but not top notch. I've got SAECO moulds that are great, no complaints. I've got some Lyman and Ideal moulds like that too and a couple of RCBS. LBT is near perfect and I have many of those. My guess is Redding will read this and take note.

[shotman]

Dillon make molds? They would want $500 and the blue would burn off. I have a set of Redding dies and a set of RCBS in same cal both dont match the listed specs.

[hammerhead357]

Guys, if you are wanting moulds made in the USA what about Ballisticast. They have the old H & G equipment and are making the same designs and moulds from what I understand and the same quality. So why not use these. I know they cost more but you get what you pay for generally.....Wes

[cbrick]

I just spent 23 minutes on the phone with Redding. Redding's best advice, nothing wrong with their products . . . it's all me and I should buy RCBS products.

NO . . . that's not a joke, that's what Redding told me. Several times in fact.

The first T-7 press went back to Redding with the original die plate and 3 additional plates. Redding said one of the plates was indeed off but the other 3 were fine therefore the second press and 4 total die plates that I have are also fine. They suggested that I return everything to the store and buy RCBS from now on.

As for the two SAECO moulds, 441 and 446, that also is all me. Little of the conversation was devoted to the moulds, all he said was alloy and casting temp, couldn't be their moulds and no they don't want them back under warranty.

As for the neck thickness gauge they wouldn't even discuss it when I mentioned it.

Great customer service huh?

As for me, after 45+ years of handloading and 25+ years of shooting exclusively my own cast boolits (my handloads loaded with my cast bullets have won me both national and state championships in long range handgun) I'm off to learn how to raise the press ram so the cartridge case goes straight into the die and not at an angle. Perhaps I can take lessons because after all it must be me, Redding says so.

They did confirm (as their web site states) that everything Redding is indeed American made with the exception of the dial indicator.

Rick

[Bret4207]

Sheesh! I will forward this to Mom for whatever good it will do.

[flutedchamber]

Rich,

I am very sorry to hear that you were treated this way by such a good company, at least one that was good. I hope that you got the name of the person who you spoke to.

Perhaps a letter to their local BBB and company head may help. It is treatment that was a duplicate of yours that made me an ex RCBS customer. Dillon's treatment concerning warranty part replacement is of questionable quality. Whether it gets better or worse is up to them.

[EMC45]

That is some sorry customer service!! I have a bunch of RCBS and Lee. RCBS are more than cordial on the phone whenever I have called. But there RockChucker is made in China and that is unforgivable! I have a Lee Classic Cast and it is a heck of a machine!!!

[Willbird]

OK it depends on exactly HOW mad you are, if you are good an mad, take the tape recording of what the guy on the phone said to you (you DID tape it didn't you?) then mail that and some sample bullets and pictures to Redding, ALSO mail the same to any gun writer you can find an address for. And TELL Redding you did this too.

A. they now suck....or
B. Somebody is going to get fired and some butts are gonna get kicked.

Bill

[monadnock#5]

I think Redding's response needs to be taken in context with current political trends. A year ago, Redding's policies were geared towards making products and profits for many years to come. Today, having been targeted for extinction, why bother? I expect that they are working overtime making hay while the sun shines, with the expectation that the sun will be going down soon. Customer returns? Nope, don't bother with them!! Maximise profits for the short term.

I stick by my previous post. If this is what Rick gets for all his years as a loyal customer, then the only thing the Redding name is good for is writing in the snow.

[rmb721]

Right now, three of the moulds I have are Saeco. There will be no more.

monadnock#5: For the writing in the snow, you did mean in yellow, didn't you?

[monadnock#5]

rmb721, you read me 5X5.

[Ian Robertson]

In this day and age you better be aware that MANY gun parts are made in China. It's kind of like saying that the burger is really 100% beef, not! China can make good stuff but like anywhere you get what you pay for. From what I hear a lot of parts sent to China are coming back to North America because China ia getting too expensive. You might be very surprise what "Made in USA" percentage comes from China.

[Willbird]

I did take time to write Redding from their page and express my dismay over how the OP was treated on this deal, I put a link to this thread right in the email.

Bill

[TAWILDCATT]

could it be the quality of the american youth??to many have lived the good life maybe we need areal disaster.
I also believe it is partialy the fault of gov controls.clean air is fine but when it drives companies out of business or out of the country,then it is ruiness.
The Lee products are made on state of the art machines,and by using alluminum
in the molds and die castings where posible he can produce at less cost.and he does not have to grind reamers.the old way of doing things make it harder to keep up.I like Lee products but I do have most others.having been a machinist I understand how things are done.there are to many jerks at the low level,and there are some very good lads here that can make you molds as good or better than the big boys.you might try them.:coffee: [smilie=1:

[cbrick]

I did take time to write Redding from their page and express my dismay over how the OP was treated on this deal, I put a link to this thread right in the email. Bill

I gave Redding this info when on the phone with them. Also informed them that my web site gets about 1 million page views a year and I'm thinking of devoting an entire page to Redding quality/customer service and gave them the URL http://www.lasc.us. They thanked me for the info and said their lawyers would look it over. I hope they do, I posted nothing that was even exaggerated much less false.

Rick

[cbrick]

I forgot to mention in post #31 that after my phone conversation with Redding the micrometer case trimmer (see post #1) came back in that afternoon's mail. Haven't trimmed any brass with it yet but at least the cutting head doesn't bob up and down while turning the micrometer drum in like it did. The micrometer drum bobs up and down but not the cutting head, at least from a visual inspection, I haven't put a dial indicator on it yet just because i have lost so much enthusiasm for what was supposed to be premium tools.

Rick

[RSOJim]

Lee's classic cast press will be my next single stage. I have used their old aluminum one for 25 years and its getting wobbly in the ram area. Its been thru he@@. I still load all my rifle ammo with it though. Jim

[nicholst55]

Personally I find it very discouraging to hear this about Redding's quality and customer service. Well, maybe not surprising about their customer service - a friend of mine had a Redding shell holder fail a while back and called them about it. It was for a .30-378 Wby, if memory serves me, and the part of the SH that holds the case just pulled off.

The person that he spoke to essentially said 'tough; buy a new one.' He replied that he would, but that it would say RCBS on it.

Anyhow, I sent Redding a very polite letter containing a link to this thread, and explained that I was hugely disappointed in them. I explained that I will no longer patronize or recommend them unless this matter is resolved to cbrick's satisfaction.

Will they care? I dunno. One can hope. :roll:

Guess I'll be buying my relaoding gear from someone else in the future, though.

[VintageRifle]

The sad part is all they had to do was make it right. If they did that, no negative press about it. Make it right and keep your customers happy. They don't even want to check to make sure the product is correct and not faulty.

I have gotten 2 bad products from Lee. One a incorrectly cut bullet mould, and the other a 7.62x39 sizing die. The die would scratch cases heavily on the neck. The die was corrected within a 2 week turnaround (shipping both ways included) and the bullet mould was replaced.

[Willbird]

I got a reply to the email I sent to Redding, if anybody would like a copy you can PM me and I will send it to you. I am satisfied they did make an effort to remedy the situation. The person who emailed me said he asked to see the bullet mold in question and has not received it yet.

Bill

[anachronism]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, but it sounds like they still handled it better than Hornady or Lyman might have.

[pjh421]

My first reloading press was a Lyman Spar-T. Under the turret was a collar with a set scew that you could adjust to align the die with the shell holder. It was good to go from the factory so I never had to touch it.

Does the Redding have this feature? It looks like a great press from the pictures.

Paul

[Wayne S]

Sheesh! I will forward this to Mom for whatever good it will do.
Bret,
Did you ever hear back from here ?

[cbrick]

No, the T-7 doesn't have that feature but I'm fairly certain the problem I've had with two different presses is that the hole in the rear of the press isn't quite in the right place and there is no adjustment for it. Redding flat denied that this was even possible.

Redding answered emails in response to this thread and the main drift of a rather lengthy paragraph was to discredit me. The person that forwarded this email to me asked not to post it so I won't but a few of Redding's highlights,

1> He said I am hiding behind a "handle" in this forum, not true, many here know exactly who and where I am. For any that don't they simply need to click on cbrick to look at my profile then click on my web page, lots of info about me there. I am not hiding from or behind anything.

2> Redding (Robin Sharpless, Director of Sales & Marketing, Redding Reloading Equipment) said that I explained how much I like my Rockchucker. That is a blatant lie and he knows it. I mentioned the Rockchucker only to say that I put the same shell holder, the same cartridge case and the same Redding carbide die in the Rockchucker to test if the brass or shell holder where the problem. It wasn't. I never told him if I liked or hated it, simply that I did this test and the alignment was perfect where it's not in either the first or the second T-7.

3> He said the alignment of the first T-7 returned to the factory was perfect (but he did admit one of the four die plates was off) and therefore the second one (press and four die plates) that I still have is also perfect and no, he doesn't want it back because there is nothing wrong with it. He said in his email that the store paid shipping to return the press and he knows full well that I paid $40.00 up front for shipping before the store would consider returning it.

4> He said that he offered me a full refund. That is a blatant lie, he did not, he offered nothing from Redding. His best offer was "Take it back and buy RCBS".

5> He said that in my posts here "there have been a host of truths which were electively omitted". Another blatant lie. I didn't even exagerate anything.

6> He said that he asked for the SAECO moulds to be returned. A blatant lie. Very little of our 23 minute phone call (my dime) was about the moulds but rather than ask for their return he specifically said he didn't want them back because like the presses, there is nothing wrong with them.

There is much more in his lengthy email and the majority of it is directed solely at discrediting me.

Hiding behind "cbrick"

[Recluse]

Seems to be a substantial difference between Redding & Dillon. . .

First off, I'm not all that big of a Dillon fan. When I was younger, the Moonies kinda scared me. I'm funny that way about cults, and too many Dillon owners remind me of Moonies. "So, why did you buy a Dillon?"

Answer from Dillon Moonie, "Why, everyone says buy Dillon."

"Any particular reason?"

Answer from Dillon Moonie, "Who needs a reason, man. Don't be blasphemous."

But, and this is a huge BUT . . . when there was a related issue here regarding a questionable tactic employed by a Dillon salesperson, a rep from Dillon not only showed up here, but threw down the Welcome mat. He did professionally and with great credibility.

He did it so well, in fact, that I'm feeling a little Moonish myself.

Redding comes under the gun, and what happens? Redding customer gets called an SOB, a liar, cheat and other bad names. Redding is all that is Holy, Cbrick is all that is unholy. Several folks from here, (present hermit and anti-society Recluse included) e-mailed and/or called Redding for THEIR side of the story and some, (present company included) included a link to this issue.

Seems Redding is too busy manufacturing crap to be bothered with us lowlife, low-class, hillybilly, cousin-marrying, redneck LEAD BOOLIT shooters.

Least, that's the way I take it when snubbed.

So let's review: Member here gets upset at Dillon, and Dillon comes to Cast Boolits. Talks, chats, friendly, informative. Class act from a class cult, er, uh, COMPANY. :-D

Another member here gets upset at Redding and Redding proceeds to discredit said member based upon a forum moniker rather than addressing their CUSTOMER'S problem with his purchase.

On thing is for danged certain--I'd rather dip my butt in honey butter and squat in a fireant bed than buy any (more) Redding equipment.

Reckon I need to sign up for The Blue Press. At least Dillon stands behind their products.

:coffeecom

[cbrick]

Now come on Recluse, I don't believe for a second that you married your cousin. Well, second cousin maybe but not the first. [smilie=1:

Rick

[Ron B.]

This is kind of off topic; but not.

Recently, 3 weeks ago I ordered a Dillon Terminator Digital scale. Misinformed, I thought "all" Dillon products were made in the good ole USA. I knew, paying $140 for Dillon's digital scale seemed a tad high; but ordered over the Internet just the same. Days prior to ordering, I had to return two "brand new" RCBS's ChargeMaster 1500s. One quit working two days after receiving it from Natchez Supply. The other, a new replacement for my older machine would not work"out of the box!" I've now made up my mind to sell two new CHargeMasters, once I receive one more back from RCBS. One was delivered yesterday by UPS. I'm not even going to unwrap it. According to RCBS, as of yesterday they have no idea when they will be receiving more. Had I not called, I would not even be in line for "my" second one. Somehow, they (RCBS) had misplaced my paperwork. Yeah, right.

Anyway, I did receive my Dillon Terminator. I'd never seen one "in person". Right off the bat, "MADE IN CHINA" greeted my eyes. Not only that, the top dust cover was cracked. And, the protective case I paid extra for had been backordered without my knowing it. I called Dillon; speaking with Tim. After listening to my complaint, regarding the protective case Tim told me "It's on a slow boat from China! I don't know when we will get them!" Now, remember I've already paid for this item. And, when I mentioned the cracked dust cover, he did say he would find one "lying" around the shop; and send it to me. When I asked about the scale, having been made in China, Tim replied rather tartly, "Well Sir, would you pay $400 for the same scale made in the USA!" I don't know, this guy needs a lesson in Customer Etiquette IMO.

CBRick, I hope you get your moulds straightened out. Question, would you like to buy a slightly used RCBS 2 cavity .452 mould, purchased two weeks ago from Midway? The two halves align in the handles properly; but the two halves comprising the bullet don't match. RCBS says "Return it, at your expense and we'll send you a new set!" I think it's time for me to reevaluate where I spend my money. :)

GRB

[flutedchamber]

I bought a gem scale that is accurate to 1/100 of a grain with more total capacity and sensitivity for under $100 shipped. Regular price is just $140 plus shipping. Oh...LIFETIME GUARANTEE , but made in China

My China made Dillon scale died after being used twice (the second time was two years after I bought it). I called Dillon and got the "out of warranty" line..ok, they have me there..but they would rebuild mine for something linke $80 plus shipping both ways and then no guarantee on the new unit.

Dillon is slipping fast. Check out www.myweigh.com the GemPro500. I have had the scale for 3 months and love it. The Dillon doesn't come near this scale in any way at all.

[Ron B.]

Oh, I failed to mention; I just this moment decided my "Dillon's" going back. :)

GRB

[Leadforbrains]

Well color me disapointed. I was hoping for a forum response from a Redding representative.
I own Redding products as well as reloading equipment from other manufacturers. While I have no complaints I was curious to see how Redding would respond to this problem.
That Dillon took the time to respond to the other thread to help correct a customer service problem speaks volumes to me.

[Willbird]

I always took the Dillon stuff with a grain of salt. But finally I wanted a progressive that I could readily buy caliber conversions for, etc., etc. so I bought one.

I have not needed their factory service for anything so I cannot speak good or bad about it.

The only Redding products I have bought are dies, and they are indeed excellent dies.

I would recommend that anybody that feels the OP was wronged by redding take the time to go to their webpage and send them an email.

Bill

[Ron B.]

Hey FlutedChamber!
Thank you for the link to myweigh.com.!! I ordered one of their scales, model GemPro 500 yesterday from:

http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-gempro-500.aspx

It's already shipped! I'll have my new scale tomorrow! I'll let the board know what I think; once I have a chance to actually use it.

GRB

[flutedchamber]

Hey FlutedChamber!
Thank you for the link to myweigh.com.!! I ordered one of their scales, model GemPro 500 yesterday from:

http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-gempro-500.aspx

It's already shipped! I'll have my new scale tomorrow! I'll let the board know what I think; once I have a chance to actually use it.

GRB

You are quite welcome my good man. I ordered mine from Jewelry Television (of all places:confused:) but they had the best price as I wrote before. They buy in such volume that they sell it at a little above their cost as a loss leader. I checked before I wrote about the scale to you and Jewelry Television no longer lists the scale on it's website.

The scale is a little smaller in size than the Dillon, but is better constructed and has many more (useful) features than the Dillon ever had.

Enjoy

Roy

[monadnock#5]

Some time ago, in another thread, I posted the opinion that buying a press was a crap shoot, as it is impossible for a manufacturer to make a press plumb, square and perpendicular to exact tolerances, at a price we would be willing to pay. Those that took me to task for that opinion used the Redding T-7 as a shining example of manufacturing art. "Superb" was the adjective used. Well, I'm glad you got what you paid for. Rick didn't, and has no recourse apparently, as in, "tough luck".

I had hoped that a Redding rep would come on Board, Viking Berserker style, a la Freedom Arms, and maybe explain some of their tolerance specs. In which case I was prepared to fold like a cheap suit. No such luck. If it goes out the door with the Co name on it, it has to be good.

Some years ago a coworker processed a batch of parts that were later found to be out of tolerance. While waiting for the axe to fall he asked a long timer what he might expect. His reply, "It's a funny thing, if they don't need the parts for a while you're in big trouble. If they needed the parts out the door yesterday, you've got nothing to worry about." As it turned out, he had nothing to worry about.

[flutedchamber]

Redding isn't the only company that puts out crap presses. I owned one of the early Hornady Pro-jectors that had one die station bored .015 off both in rotation and from centerline as compared to the other stations. Sending it back to Hornady got me nothing but the cost of shipping it to them and a letter stating that the press was "well within manufacturing tolerances."

You're right...they were highly in demand at the time and was shipped out to fill the demand.

[Geraldo]

I have a T-7 I've had no problems with, and I finally got notice that spare turrets were in stock (I'm still amazed Rick found at least eight of them). So I'll get to see soon enough if there is any difference between it and my other turret.

[Harpman]

found this thread and got to checking my lyman turret press , sure thing out of alignment a tad....Have any of you found a press thats perfectly aligned ?....seems to me the bullet seating station for competition shooting needs to be perfect alignment.

[flutedchamber]

My Forster Co-ax is dead on, as is my older RCBS Rockchucker.

[cbrick]

found this thread and got to checking my lyman turret press , sure thing out of alignment a tad.... Have any of you found a press thats perfectly aligned ?.... seems to me the bullet seating station for competition shooting needs to be perfect alignment.

Absolutely, the only two presses that I've ever worked with that weren't properly aligned were these two Redding T-7's.

Yes but not only the seating station, for concentric (spelled accurate) ammo every station "MUST" be aligned. If the press ram doesn't need to align with the die why bother spending $200.00 on a 3 die set of Redding Competition dies? NOTHING is aligned anyway! What good is a competition seating die going to do in a cartridge case that is bent on an angle? What possible good could the Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizing Die ($88.00 plus shipping at Midway) be if all you’re going to do is push the case off center to one side? If the press is just a few thousands off center you can kiss the money you spent on that match chamber goodbye. Off any more than that and it wouldn't even make decent plinking ammo and both of these T-7’s are off by more than that.

According to Redding that's all just fine and if you don't like it don't tell them, all they have to say about it is buy RCBS if you don’t like it. That's what you get for paying the highest prices in the industry!

Rick

[cbrick]

I have a T-7 I've had no problems with, and I finally got notice that spare turrets were in stock (I'm still amazed Rick found at least eight of them). So I'll get to see soon enough if there is any difference between it and my other turret.

Geraldo, Two of the die plates came with the two presses of coarse, when I bought the first press the store had two additional plates and I bought them giving me three. A week later they got more in stock and I bought one more, hadn't used the press yet but this gave me four. When I discovered the alignment problem I returned the press and the additional three plates and the store swapped another new press and three plates. There was no difference in the alignment between either press and any of the plates. The first press and the first three plates went back to Redding and they said "one" of the plates was off center.

I have examined and swapped enough plates, dies and cartridge cases to believe the plates are not the problem. The rear of the T-7 has a hole bored to hold a spring loaded detent ball that a detent in the plate corresponds to; this is what aligns the plate and thus the die with the ram. Even though Redding said the die holes were off center on one plate I think the problem is a bad run of presses that have the detent ball improperly located and thus every plate used on that press will not align the die and the ram. Redding says this is not a possibility. It's not? Why not? Much better for Redding to slander me by calling me a liar and an idiot than to admit the possibility of an error on Redding's part.

Anyway, when you get your new plate(s) I’d like to hear if it works out correctly.

Rick

[Geraldo]

Rick,

I just got my spare plate yesterday, but haven't loaded any ammo on it yet.

That's a great explanation in your last post. My theory was a bad run of turrets, but a bad run of presses/detent holes would be another explanation. I'm also wondering if it has nothing to do with any of that, but with the ram/turret being out of square with each other.

When I get a chance to load on it I'll post back.

[ELFEGO BACA]

I purchased a used Redding T-7 over a year ago and have been using it to load 45/70 black powder cartridge rounds - it works fine:)

I recently purchased another used Redding T-7. It is still sitting on my lazy boy. I need to find room on my bench:(

I have a Dillon 550B that I purchased new in 86. A few years ago I bought a used reconditioned Dillon Square Deal. I was having problems with the priming system. I sent it to Dillon for repairs and now it works fine:)

Of course my Rockchucker was purchased in the 70s - no problems.

[cbrick]

Some time ago, in another thread, I posted the opinion that buying a press was a crap shoot, as it is impossible for a manufacturer to make a press plumb, square and perpendicular to exact tolerances, at a price we would be willing to pay. Those that took me to task for that opinion used the Redding T-7 as a shining example of manufacturing art. "Superb" was the adjective used. Well, I'm glad you got what you paid for. Rick didn't, and has no recourse apparently, as in, "tough luck".

I've been asking around to see if others are using the T-7 and their experience with it. So far I've found two but they are both at least 1 1/2 - 2 years old and they say no problems at all. I haven't found anyone that has recently purchased one.

I still think it is a case of a bad run of presses. Such things can happen, well, not with Redding, according to Redding that is not a possibility with Redding products. The biggest problem isn't that IT DID HAPPEN but Redding's total and complete lack of customer service and then as proof that the most expensive reloading products on the market are fine . . . they slander me.

Rick

[shdwlkr]

Rick
I have several Redding products because they where located close to where I used to live and have bought some through the mail over the years and have never had an issue with the quality.
Now from all you have said something is wrong somewhere and I wished I could light a fire at the company and get to the bottom of the issue. They will most likely just write you off as a disgruntled customer and be done with it unless they get thousands of complaints then they will look into the matter and may or may not notify all who bought such and such item(s)
it is done all the time anymore. One or even sometimes a hundred complaints don't mean a thing it has to be thousands and doesn't hurt to have a few lawyers talking to there lawyers to get the water to boil so to speak.
Me if I made reloading stuff I would be on a few sites to see how my stuff was being viewed by the public but that is just me because I am a pain in the butt when it comes to keeping people happy. Yes I was that way when I worked on construction also the people who's homes we went by had every right to us being kind and understanding.

Now I guess I had better find a new source since Redding seems to have fallen into the trap that who gives crap quality mode. Sad when a good company is more interested in profits then taking care of business. Well we can hope that the recession will help them out of business so that we don't have to wonder about them anymore. This might be a good thing yet.

[shdwlkr]

Cbrick
didn't know until this that your website was http://www.lasc.us but glad to have found out.
I enjoy it alot and get some good info too.
never needed to know but I do know that I can pm you anytime by just going to your info beside your posts really had but then I only have a Master's degree from a college and those folks at Redding might only have a bachelor's degree. They do say education is a great thing if you don't waste it.

[omgb]

I have a T7. I bought it back in 2003 or so. Works fine. I've got many and I mean more than 4 Hornady presses (4 366s, 2 155s, and 2 L-N-Ls with case feeders and and old Projector) Service has been outstanding on all. I have an RCBS Rockchucker from my early days of relaoding (1975) still works great, no problems. I have two Dillon 550Bs again, no problems and I have lots of old Lyman gear and again, no problems. RCBS has been rel good about parts. They drew the limit though at helping me fix my Green Machine. They suggested I buy a better press. I did, the L-N-Ls. I don't know what to think about the Redding issue. I somehow can't believe either party is 100% correct.

[flutedchamber]

I have a T7. I bought it back in 2003 or so. Works fine. I've got many and I mean more than 4 Hornady presses (4 366s, 2 155s, and 2 L-N-Ls with case feeders and and old Projector) Service has been outstanding on all. I have an RCBS Rockchucker from my early days of relaoding (1975) still works great, no problems. I have two Dillon 550Bs again, no problems and I have lots of old Lyman gear and again, no problems. RCBS has been rel good about parts. They drew the limit though at helping me fix my Green Machine. They suggested I buy a better press. I did, the L-N-Ls. I don't know what to think about the Redding issue. I somehow can't believe either party is 100% correct.

I think the point is that companies (and Redding is not alone in this mess) are beginning to or have been selling goods on their PAST good name/reputation, IE products made more recently have been found to be of a lesser quality than older products. But, at least in at least my experience that statement isn't 100% accurate.

Case in point. I bought a Hornady Pro-jector when it first came out. After setting the press up I noticed that the cases were showing a slight banana shape on one side, something that would occur if the case and the die weren't concentric. After measuring all of the stations I discovered that one station was off both in relationship from the center of the press (the diameter that the die station holes create on their centerline) and in the center to center measurement from one die station to the next. I don't recall at this time the exact amount but it was in excess of .010

I called Hornady and got a return authorization. Sent the press back on my dime with a letter of explanation and waited. About a month or five weeks later my press comes back with a letter enclosed that stated that "the press is well within manufacturing tolerances." One station off by more than .010 is within manufacturing tolerances?

I noticed that you bought a Pro-jector and apparently had no trouble with it. See the difference? Needless to say it's not because Hornady made a bad press that I have never bought another product from them, it's because they made a bad press and didn't correct a problem that they knew existed.

Why didn't RCBS stand behind their Green Machine...a product that they claimed would revolutionize reloading? That wasn't a cheap press, but I guess they didn't care...they already had your money.

[omgb]

RCBS tried to support the Green Machine for many years. However, the design had flaws that were just too difficult to over come. The priming station in point was prone to misfeed. Adjustment was tricky and the factory was loosing its shirt on an admittedly flawed design. The machine was designed to be set up and dialed in and then never changed. I think they had police and competative teams in mind at design time. IIRC, it came on the market atabout the same time PPC shooting was getting hot. When guys bought it and tried to swap dies, change calibers etc the whole thing became a nightmare. So, they dropped it and came up with their own turret design after studying Lee, Hornady, and Star. Dillon is a rehash of the Star machine on several levels. Not a put down, just an observation. At any rate, I don't hold RCBS too accountable for not supporting the machine after it's 10th year out of production. Just my $.02

[golddigger]

I would like to offer something. I have only RCBS on my bench. Why youmight ask.

Well the skinny of it is that I have stuff that was my dads when he was in law enforcement and was handed down to me. Some of this is old stuff but do you know that it still carries the same warenty now as when it was bought in ths 60's.

I have called even when it was my own stupid fault and they still replace or repair at no cost to me. That is also with no proof that i even bought it. That being said
I think maybe more people should buy RCBS.

If you look at lee they only carry a 2 year warrenty. Never owned lee but they do make quality stuff. Dont get me wrong but if you make a quality product why not stand behind it for life. I will always have green on my bench.

[flutedchamber]

OMGB,

It is unfortunate that RCBS didn't take a few more weeks or months to test the Green Machine rather than put something out on the market that they KNEW was faulty. RCBS is an excellent company that does stand behind it's products MOST of the time. Do you still have the Green Machine?

As golddigger wrote, RCBS doesn't even ask for a part to be returned, call and they replace the faulty or broken part. My ONLY beef with RCBS, and until that day my bench was ALL green, was with one RCBS carbide die in 45acp. I used it for a few rounds, less than two hundred and the insert fell out. OK, it didn't fall out, it withdrew itself on the case that was being resized. I called RCBS and told them what happened and was told to send the die back for replacement. The die was sent back to RCBS with the case still in it (it was a Remington case, not military) and a note asking for a replacement. Two weeks later the die came back with the case removed from the insert and a letter stating that I abused the die. Except for a fingerprint on the knurling from a sweaty thumb there wasn't a mark on the die. How could this be abuse?? Please bear in mind that this was when a carbide die set sold for more than $50 plus shipping. I needed the die to finish a large run of 45acp and ended up buying of all things a Lee carbide set locally for $19. Now granted the cost of the Lee dies was high but I needed the dies NOW.

Those Lee dies are now over 30 years old. The insert is still intact and not worn "egg shaped" like I was told by people who didn't like Lee products. I own 4 RCBS presses and one tumbler. However, since that day I received my "abused" die back from RCBS I have never bought another RCBS die of any type. I don't think my lack of buying RCBS products will seriously affect their bottom line, I am positive it will never add to it again.

[omgb]

I off-loaded that GM years ago. It was fun to look at and when it worked it was cool to use but sheesh, what a headache when it was out of sorts.....and that was frequently. I bought a Lee Progressive 1000 way back in 1987 or 88. Talk about a ***....man that was a stinker. it jammed, mis-fed primers, got out of time and basically was a PITA to use. I ditched that back in 91 and never looked back. To be fair, I have two Lee priming tools and love them. I like most of their dies too but the Dillon universal decapper is a whole lot stronger than any of the Lee decappers including the one you use a hammer with. I know this for sure after decapping more than 4,000 of Korean surplus 06.

[flutedchamber]

Out of curiosity, what did the Green Machine go for new?

[omgb]

It was over $375 IIRC. That was a lot of money in those days. It may even have been more. I know I got $200 for it when I sold it. BTW, my Projector is a boat anchor. I bought it for parts only. the priming system is trash but the holes line up with the base plate OK

[flutedchamber]

I got rid of my Pro-Jector about a month after I got it back from Hornady. I sold it to a friend (and he still is a friend!!) for parts. Yes, the priming system left a lot to be desired, but was workable for the short time that mine fed primers.

Hornady makes great projectiles but I don't care for their dies and presses. No experience with their powder measures or other goodies.

[monadnock#5]

IIRC, it was in the 80's that Richard Lee got into it with RCBS on the subject of press strength. RCBS advertised the strongest, toughest presses. Mr. Lee's response was "who cares?". It was Mr. Lee's assertion that Lee presses were every bit as capable of producing loaded rounds as RCBS, even if not as powerfully built. Now gentlemen, this was a brilliant marketing strategy beneficial to both parties. Brilliant because it deflected the consumer's attention from the real question. "Who makes the best press on the market in terms of bullet/ boolit to case concentricity and on target accuracy?"

Does anyone know? I don't. By the way, if you haven't actually measured the concentricity of your loaded ammo, you're not qualified to have an opinion. Sorry. Please don't be offended, but opinion doesn't count here, only the numbers.

One would naturally assume that since "you get what you pay for" as a general rule, that a top of the line press would produce top of the line cartridges. In this example however, all Rick got for the money was headaches and insults.

So, the real question, I guess would be, would you be willing to pay double the price for a press GAURANTEED to produce cartridges with concentricity in the +/- .002 (to a side, .004 top to bottom) range. A bigger question to be answered would be, could the press manufacturers produce a press to those tolerances even at that price?

[flutedchamber]

If I owned a press that was off by .002 I would trash it. My older Rockchucker is out by .00025 center of die hole to center of ram. The ram is dead nut as far as being parallel to the die. My other RCBS presses are similar, tho my A4 is almost perfect in all planes. The winning vote goes to my Forster Co-ax. Barely a movement on the .0001 indicator no matter how you measure it. Being out by .002 is far too much for any press.

[Meatco1]

Ok, enough! I'm done with Redding also.

When they start slandering customers instead of repairing the problem, I have no need to buy their products.

Richard

[Buckshot]

..............Yup the Green Machine was somewhat of a sensation when it came out. I do believe it was the first truly PROGRESSIVE reloading press available to hobby reloaders (us) vs manufacturers. Oh sure there were other multi station presses out there. The CH companies "H" types come to mind, but you needed like 4 shellholders and had to manually move the case from station to station.

I also recall the Green Machine as being somewhat extravagant pricewise. I don't recall if it was me simply seeing the price or having the magazine article's author saying so. Most likely both. The was a gunshop close to where I was working in the late 70's and they had a Green Machine setup behind the counter that the owner's son used for loading 45ACP. He thought it was a great machine, so apparently had no issues or possibly was embarassed to say so if he did.

I kind of think that RCBS had a good idea but went with the engineer's (if he was an engineer) concept, instead of maybe having some oversight or attempts at re-design simplification. I know that sometimes in a series of proceedures the person working them out figures he has it done. He's made every effort to remove every unecessary movement or toolchange and is happy with the result. Then along comes the guy sweeping the floor. He watches the operation for a moment then says, "How come ya didn't do so and so instead of that"? The engineer then does the age old forehead thump with the palm of his hand after hearing the suggestion.

It's happened to me several times in trying to figure out how to accomplish something. Someone pops up with such a simple and easy approch you don't know whether to profusely thank them or choke'em :-)

..............Buckshot

[quasi]

I don't think trashing Redding over one customers complaint is fair or smart. I have a lot of Redding equipment, and it is all first class.

Trashing RCBS over making products outside of the US is unreasonable also. If you only bought products made in the US, YOU WOULD NOT BE READING THIS BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT AFFORD A COMPUTER!

Do you think all of Lee's machines and the parts they contain are made in the US? How about all of the aluminum and plastic they use in their products?

Where does the lead from your wheel weights come from, the powder you burn, the walnut in your stocks, the gasoline in your vehicle...... ???

Give your head a shake.

[wizzbang]

I just received their catalog because I wrote to ask about their Lubri-sizer. I have had for a couple of years reloading equipment including the big boss press. No problems, however today may be another story.

[flutedchamber]

I don't think trashing Redding over one customers complaint is fair or smart. I have a lot of Redding equipment, and it is all first class.

Trashing RCBS over making products outside of the US is unreasonable also. If you only bought products made in the US, YOU WOULD NOT BE READING THIS BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT AFFORD A COMPUTER!

Do you think all of Lee's machines and the parts they contain are made in the US? How about all of the aluminum and plastic they use in their products?

Where does the lead from your wheel weights come from, the powder you burn, the walnut in your stocks, the gasoline in your vehicle...... ???

Give your head a shake.

So are you saying that inferior crap, whether made in the USA or abroad should be accepted? I realize that Canada imports many things that are made in the USA, but I still think that anyone in any country expects a reasonable level of quality and customer service. The whole thing has nothing to do with where a product is made or sold, rather the quality of a product and if a mistake takes place how the manufacturer handles the problem. Look for the union label.

[Steve E]

A couple of years ago I had a problem with a 257 Robt AI dies from them (no problem with my 280 Rem AI or 250 Sav AI dies). The dies were scratching my brass, I could clean and lube some fired brass and run them into the sizing die and it would come out with scratches on them. I took some brass and polished it up and made sure no scratches were on it then lubed and ran into the sizing die and out it came with scratches. Even brass fired in another gun would produce the same result, scratch pattern was the same on all thebrass. Sent it back to Redding and they sent me a nice letter saying the die was in perfect shape and that any problem was with my gun. I called them and the gentleman I spoke to was rather short with me and said the same thing after looking up my info.
Oh well since I have perfect dies I guess I'll have to learn to live with a bad rifle.

Steve E...........

[ntodawind]

Hi,
I am new here,
I was looking for information on an A4 press and have been looking for a strong single stage press for magnum rifle calibers. I have looked at the lyman Crush, Hornady lock & load, Reddding Big Boss as these Have 4 - 4 1/2" of work area and Just happened onto Your site which (am glad I did ). From Looking at all of these problems with the companies that manufactures the presses I really do not know which one press would be the best. I am and have since used my dillon XL650 since the mid 80's I have nothing but good things to say for dillon products. But i am now in the market for a single stage press. Any help would be fasinating!
Thanks,
Tim

[flutedchamber]

What a shame...you just missed a deal on a RCBS A4 on Ebay last week or the week before. I bought one that was still in the original box (new old stock) for less than $200 delivered about four years ago. They are an excellent press with plenty of throw for magnum cases.

Don't let what you read here discourage you. If you buy new and are not satisfied with the performance of a press or whatever the dealer that you bought it from will usually stand behind the product. If not and you purchased it with your credit card you can always complain to them.

Anyway...have you looked at the Forster Co-ax press?? It should have plenty of throw for the long cartridges and I have never heard anyone say anything bad about a Co-ax.

[ntodawind]

Hi,
Thanks for your reply I have found one for sale and I dont know what the spects. are on this press, do you know what the work space measurement is on this press? I have been casting my own bullets for about 6 months and need some tips on leading of the barrel on my .45 acp

[flutedchamber]

The press opening on the Co-ax is 4 1/4, which should be large enough to handle all but the African calibers in nitro express. I would not be without my Co-ax.

Leading in your pistol can be from a lot of things. Start with a clean bore...a VERY clean bore. Then try your loads. If it still leads, reduce the powder charge if you are running max charges. Other causes can be a rough bore (does it foul fast with jacketed bullets??) soft bullets, undersize bullets and bad or no lube.

What mix are you using for your bullets??

[cbrick]

Leading in your pistol can be from a lot of things. Start with a clean bore...a VERY clean bore. Then try your loads. If it still leads, reduce the powder charge if you are running max charges. Other causes can be a rough bore (does it foul fast with jacketed bullets??) soft bullets, undersize bullets and bad or no lube.

A bit off topic but . . . Pouring your own for a 45 ACP isn't nearly enough info to do much but guess at a cause but . . .

It's much more likely the bullets are too HARD rather than too soft.

Size about .0015" tp .002" over a "measured" groove dia., not a guess at what the groove dia. might be.

Most any decent lube will prevent leading at normal 45 ACP pressures and velocities "IF" the bullet fits properly.

Rick

[ntodawind]

flutedchamber,
Yes on the clean barrel, I used cerrosafe to cast the chamber and about 1' of the barrel to get a mesurement on the barrel which was .452 and that is the size of the sizer for the luber/sizer and it is a magma star unit. The mix is 19lbs ww and 1 lb of 50/50 solder and they measure around 6.5 - 7 on the seaco scale. I have played with the powder charge which changed the amount of leading but did not eliminate it. I am useing some lube I bought off the ebay called ( Jake's Ceresin Purple Lube)This is flustrating!
Thank You for any help,
Tim

[cbrick]

I have about 35 Star sizer dies and except for the last three they all size WW .0002" to .0003" under marked die diameter. The last three I got from magma size .0012" under marked diameter "with the same alloy". If this is the case with yours and your using a .452" die your sizing your bullets over .001" under your stated .452" groove diameter.

Do you have a good micrometer? Not calipers, a micrmeter.

Rick

[ntodawind]

I do have a good micrometer, So your telling me that my bullets are too small?
Thanks,
Tim

[flutedchamber]

Sounds like they are a bit small and perhaps too hard as he stated earlier.

[cbrick]

Tim, it sounds like small bullets, in addition to a larger size die you can also measure your die sets expander button to see what it is. If it's a little undersize (they all vary some) your not expanding the brass enough and seating the bullet can actually size down your bullets a bit more. Undersize bullets are guaranteed leading, they need to be .0015" to .002" "over" groove diameter.

Clip-on WW+ tin shouldn't be too hard unless he's shooting wuss loads.

Rick

[flutedchamber]

Although you don't hear about it much, I like the Lee hardness tester. It reads what the bullet strength is rated in pounds per square inch. I have used it a lot and never had it fail me.

[alamogunr]

If I owned a press that was off by .002 I would trash it. My older Rockchucker is out by .00025 center of die hole to center of ram. The ram is dead nut as far as being parallel to the die. My other RCBS presses are similar, tho my A4 is almost perfect in all planes. The winning vote goes to my Forster Co-ax. Barely a movement on the .0001 indicator no matter how you measure it. Being out by .002 is far too much for any press.

How do you make these measurements? I have not had a problem with my Rockchucker but what I have read in this thread makes me curious.

[flutedchamber]

I clamped my press on the table of a vertical milling machine and leveled in both planes (X and Y) and took the readings for the die hole ID and the ram OD. I clamped my dial indicator in the quill of the mill. For the sake of argument, they were dead on. You must allow a small amount of clearance between the ram and the hole in the press in which it rides. In my press this was almost .0013, much more than the indicated offset...so if you divide the clearance by two, it is still more than what the ram was off (eccentric) with the die hole.

The vertical travel of the ram was checked by holding the indicator in the quill of the mill and running it from top of the ram (ram in up position) to the bottom of the ram. There should be zero or near zero runout. It was.

Since the die hole and the bearing hole for the ram are drilled and reamed at the same time they SHOULD be concentric...but not always. Dull tooling, a loose fixture holding the press in place or a worn machine will result in a bad press. I am sure most if not all of these operations are done by a CNC controlled machine, leaving human error mainly out of the equation.

[alamogunr]

Well! I did ask. Seriously, I don't have access to facilities to do this. Before I retired, I could have had one of the machinists do it for me. Since I don't have a problem with my present equipment, I'll pass. I understand machining but I am not a machinist. We used a lot of CNC equipment and all the reasons for out of tolerance production don't hold water if operator checks critical dimensions. Granted, these dimensions can drift from acceptable to unacceptable over time but when they do, parts should be checked and corrected or scrapped back to the point where they went out of tolerance.

The bad product that cbrick described was serious, but more than that was the arrogant and unacceptable attitude exhibited by Redding. I am not in the market for a press or dies at present but when I am, I will remember this thread.

John
W.TN

[omgb]

I like the LBT hardness testor myself. It reads directly in harrdness

[monadnock#5]

How do you make these measurements? I have not had a problem with my Rockchucker but what I have read in this thread makes me curious.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=310955#enlarge

This is what you need to check the accuracy of your press. There are other run out gages on the market, or you could have a machinist make one up for you. You lay the cartridge in the cradle, place the indicator on the nose of the bullet and then rotate the case. If your reading was .002 in one complete revolution, you'd divide that number by two for a Total Indicated Run out (TIR) of .001. Chances are what you'll find is that your press makes a range of TIR with a certain number of outliers. Say a range of .006. By segregating your rounds, you save those in the .003 and under range for matches, .003 to .006 for practise and anything over .006 for plinking.

This is an easy test. I think the fact that more shooters don't do it is because if you should find a problem, you have very limited options, as in, sell the press on ebay and roll the dice on a new press. My qualifications aren't as stringent as flutedchamber's, for me, a press that can't maintain the majority of cartridges in the .004 range and under is a boat anchor.

[alamogunr]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=310955#enlarge

This is what you need to check the accuracy of your press. There are other run out gages on the market, or you could have a machinist make one up for you. You lay the cartridge in the cradle, place the indicator on the nose of the bullet and then rotate the case. If your reading was .002 in one complete revolution, you'd divide that number by two for a Total Indicated Run out (TIR) of .001. Chances are what you'll find is that your press makes a range of TIR with a certain number of outliers. Say a range of .006. By segregating your rounds, you save those in the .003 and under range for matches, .003 to .006 for practise and anything over .006 for plinking.

This is an easy test. I think the fact that more shooters don't do it is because if you should find a problem, you have very limited options, as in, sell the press on ebay and roll the dice on a new press. My qualifications aren't as stringent as flutedchamber's, for me, a press that can't maintain the majority of cartridges in the .004 range and under is a boat anchor.

While reading your post, I remembered that I have the extra stuff with the Cabine Tree hardness tester to make runout measurements. I got it all when I ordered the hardness tester just in case. This is a good opportunity to try it out. Thanks.

John

[flutedchamber]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=310955#enlarge

This is what you need to check the accuracy of your press. There are other run out gages on the market, or you could have a machinist make one up for you. You lay the cartridge in the cradle, place the indicator on the nose of the bullet and then rotate the case. If your reading was .002 in one complete revolution, you'd divide that number by two for a Total Indicated Run out (TIR) of .001. Chances are what you'll find is that your press makes a range of TIR with a certain number of outliers. Say a range of .006. By segregating your rounds, you save those in the .003 and under range for matches, .003 to .006 for practise and anything over .006 for plinking.

This is an easy test. I think the fact that more shooters don't do it is because if you should find a problem, you have very limited options, as in, sell the press on ebay and roll the dice on a new press. My qualifications aren't as stringent as flutedchamber's, for me, a press that can't maintain the majority of cartridges in the .004 range and under is a boat anchor.

I believe you misunderstood what I wrote. When I wrote that the press should be out much less than .002, I meant the press itself, not the cartridges loaded on it. If they are out more than .0015 something is very wrong, at least relating to my own presses. That is the bad thing about a checking how concentric a cartridge is. While that IS important, it doesn't tell you what is causing the problem. Is it a the ram and die out of alignment, a bad die, all three, a bad shellholder, a bad lot of brass with crooked bases (I have had this on 7mm Remington mag with new brass) or perhaps even eccentric bullets seated straight?? I'm not trying to be a nitpicking jerk about this and I am not making light of what anyone said. It's just finding that you have eccentric cartridges gives you no idea of what is causing them. If you like the unit that Midway sells, look at the one that Sinclair sells. No comparison at all and well worth the money.

About ten years ago I bought an Internal Concentricity Comparator from Verne Juenke at The Accuracy Den. The best $500 (the price then) that I ever spent. It measures how concentric the jacket and core of a bullet are. Talk about an education in short order. It eliminated those mysterious "flyer" shots and tightened groups considerably. I'm not claiming one hole groups, but much smaller more predictable groups. You can get "match" results from "regular" bullets by just checking them on the machine and keeping those with the lowest variance for the shots that count.

TIR means TOTAL indicator runout, that is if you zero the indicator and in 360 degrees of rotation it drops to -.002 and later rises to + .003 your TIR is .005

[flutedchamber]

I like the LBT hardness testor myself. It reads directly in harrdness

But then don't you still have to compare "X" hardness works with "Y" velocity? The nice thing about the Lee tester is the results are in PSI, then you match the PSI capability of the bullet to a load that has 80% of that pressure. No leading and excellent accuracy.

[flutedchamber]

Well! I did ask. Seriously, I don't have access to facilities to do this. Before I retired, I could have had one of the machinists do it for me. Since I don't have a problem with my present equipment, I'll pass. I understand machining but I am not a machinist. We used a lot of CNC equipment and all the reasons for out of tolerance production don't hold water if operator checks critical dimensions. Granted, these dimensions can drift from acceptable to unacceptable over time but when they do, parts should be checked and corrected or scrapped back to the point where they went out of tolerance.

The bad product that cbrick described was serious, but more than that was the arrogant and unacceptable attitude exhibited by Redding. I am not in the market for a press or dies at present but when I am, I will remember this thread.

John
W.TN

John, that is very true. Mistakes happen and it's just human error. However the companies should have a QC department that will catch these mistakes and stop them before they go on or are shipped out. In the off chance that something bad ends up being sold to the public the manufacturer should make good on it with no questions asked, provided the part is returned for inspection. Then I think the manufacturer should give you a refund plus the return shipping or a new item plus the shipping you paid to return the part. It is THEIR mistake, not the consumers.

[omgb]

But then don't you still have to compare "X" hardness works with "Y" velocity? The nice thing about the Lee tester is the results are in PSI, then you match the PSI capability of the bullet to a load that has 80% of that pressure. No leading and excellent accuracy.


For what I do, (BPCR) all I really need is to know that my lead falls into the 1/20 or 1/30 tin/lead category. Knowing the Bhn # does that for me where as psi would require conversion. I like the quality and price of the device too. The Lee unit is good, very good in fact but I think the LBT process is less prone to subjective interpretation.

[flutedchamber]

I understand what you mean. I was looking at it in relation to smokeless loads, a totally different animal. What you said is exactly true.

[ntodawind]

Hi,
I want to thank you fella's for the tip on barrel leading on my .45ACP, I checked the sized bullits with my mic. and it is about .001 too small. That explains why it only leaded the first 1" of the barrel. It had to be stripping off lead before it actually started to turn with the rifling in the barrel.
Thanks.
Tim

[cbrick]

I don't think trashing Redding over one customers complaint is fair or smart. I have a lot of Redding equipment, and it is all first class.

And no doubt whatsoever that had you spent over $900.00 on five different products from the same company that were useless that YOU would feel all tingly all over right?


Trashing RCBS over making products outside of the US is unreasonable also. If you only bought products made in the US, YOU WOULD NOT BE READING THIS BECAUSE YOU COULD NOT AFFORD A COMPUTER!

Thanks for informing me what I can afford. Thanks also for letting me know that I should have that warm tingly feeling as I buy a cheap Chinese knock-off while putting an American out of work.


Do you think all of Lee's machines and the parts they contain are made in the US? How about all of the aluminum and plastic they use in their products?

Where does the lead from your wheel weights come from, the powder you burn, the walnut in your stocks, the gasoline in your vehicle......???

Lead? Missouri. Walnut? Mostly from the south eastern U.S... Powder? Sadly a lot of it from Canada.

Re-read this post, it's about Redding, Redding's recent poor quality and 100% lack of customer service and Redding is supposedly U.S. made. Then as proof that Redding products are fine they slander me.

Now take $900.00 out of your pocket and flush it down the commode and say "it's ok, it's imported. Now do you have that warm tingly feeling?

Give your head a shake.

Rick

[felix]

Walnut? I am a 1/10 participant in 120 acres of black walnut around Advance MO, called Superior Walnut Plantation. We planted them in rows interspaced with white pine in 1981. The pine has since been cut after doing their job in helping the walnuts prune themselves for 2 boles each (16 feet). There are about 50 walnut trees per acre. We are now in the stage of playing roulette. Do we harvest some? Do we take a chance of storms? Trees over 14 DBH (14 inch diameter at breast height) are marketable. ... felix

[cbrick]

hhmmm . . . your figures and my calculator says you own about 600 Walnut trees, now to figure out how many stock blanks in 600 trees?? Interesting problem.

Rick

[kernal_panic]

My FIL is going to Oroville to get some OLD RCBS dies replaced, they are 1985 44 mag carbides that is splitting cases. He never reloaded with them until last fall, and we measured the sized brass and it is 0.010" undersized over his and my old non carbide dies. RCBS verified they had a bad batch, but couldn't get ALL of them off the shelves, obviously.

Here is a reply on another thread from 2007
Subject: RE: rcbs.com - Ask RCBS Form

Thank you for contacting RCBS with your concern. Most of our products
are still produced right here in our factory in Oroville CA. However,
we do purchase some items from China or other countries around the
world. Any items we source outside of our operation are closely
monitored to insure they meet our quality expectations. The only reason
we choose certain items to be produced over seas is to provide our
customers with the best possible products for the lowest possible cost,
or in other words, to give you the best value for your hard earned
dollars.

It is important for us to here from our customers and we appreciate you
taking the time to provide us with your input.

Allen


WHAT? Lowest possible cost? RCBS and Lowest possible cost do not go in the same sentence. EVER.

Lee yes RCBS no. looks like RCBS is trying to inflate their profits at the expense of their fellow Americans.

[kernal_panic]

Wow Dillon are just amazing, right even when they are wrong.

Thats the attitude I got of them when I tried to buy one of their presses.

They never got my money and I got just as good if not better at less cost from somewhere else, thank you Dillon. :-D

it will sicken you guys to hear this..... but i have 550B I paid about $100 for........

5 years ago I bought a SDB from a gun shop that was being sold for $100 cash.... it was in 9mm.... I sold off the 9mm parts and converted it to .38 special for a new cost of about $40 more......

I used it for 5 years and sold it on ebay for $250 netting $110. and i used it for 5 years....

I bought a 550B from a guy and all of his gear for $500. I sold off the redding competion seating die for $81, the dillon die set for $60, the tumbler, scale, and bullet puller for $75, an rcbs die set for $30, and a lee auto prime 2 for $10.

so 250+81+60+30+75+10 = 581 - the 140 I had in the SDB to begin with = $441

thats what I netted so far. so basically I have $59 in the RL550B

but i still have a couple of other things to sell off. I just bought 2 caliber conversions off of ebay for $95 shipped. right now the machine is setup for .308 and .30-06.... I'm going to order a powder funnel for 45 acp from dillon.

[felix]

I guy just gave me his 550B, and his entire loading stuff, all delivered in boxes properly, so why did YOU go through all the hassles to get yours for a net result of 100 bucks? Moral: There is always a faster gun in town. ... felix

[cbrick]

WHAT? Lowest possible cost? RCBS and Lowest possible cost do not go in the same sentence. EVER.

Lee yes RCBS no. looks like RCBS is trying to inflate their profits at the expense of their fellow Americans.

Huh? Say what?

Actually RCBS is far from the most expensive reloading tool mfg company, that distinction goes to Redding! RCBS customer service is top notch while Redding for all practicle purposes has NO customer service. Redding won't even honor their own written warranty. Redding replaced their customer service with telling their customers to buy RCBS and then sending emails slandering their customers.

Rick

[cbrick]

I'm thinking of buying a digital video camera just for this useless Redding turret press, the one that Redding says is fine without ever looking at it and since they refuse to honor their own warranty they don't want it back. I haven't yet talked myself into or out of spending the money for this, I don't need a video camera but it would show very clearly how far out of alignment this thing really is. No fancy measuring equipment needed, its so far out of alignment it is easily seen just looking at it.

Rick

[monadnock#5]

Now that would make an interesting You Tube video, and attract the attention of a much wider audience.

[omgb]

Rick, how about a swap. I have a Mec 9000 that needs a refurbishment. I got it from a lady whose husband passed away. I'll send you the Mec at no cost if you send me the Redding. I'll look at the Redding, agree or dissagree with you by PM. You can then post the results. I'll use the Reding for spare parts. What do you say?

[cbrick]

Well RJ, that’s an interesting offer but first I need to figure out what I would do with the MEC, for the tens of thousands of rounds of ammo I've loaded nary a one of them were a shotgun shell . . . No shotgun. [smilie=1:

Redding's proof that their products are still top notch was calling me a liar. I have been looking around at video cameras and also at renting them. I may still do this because this press is so far out of alignment that its easily seen with the naked eye and its exactly the same as the first press that went back to Redding, the one Redding said was fine so the one I still have is also fine.

Am I mad? I’m out over $900.00 on useless junk and Redding refuses to honor their warranty, instead of doing the right thing they chose to call me an idiot and a liar. Mad? Gee, say it ain’t so. With the people here that are reading about what Redding has become plus the other boards where I’ve seen this picked up on and the page on my web site that’s getting good traffic if even 10% of these people think about this when making their next reloading tool purchase (much less for years down the road) . . . well. It’s a video that should get good traffic on u-tube also so I think I’ll hang on to the cast iron paper weight for awhile. All this and Redding doesn’t seem to care, I suppose there are plenty of unsuspecting victims for Redding to prey on.

Thanks for thinking about it though.

Rick

[monadnock#5]

As you're in sunny California, you must have rubbed elbows with a few people in the movie industry. While there's no need to go "HOLLYWOOD" on this new project, I still think you need to get those camera angles and the lighting just right.

[omgb]

Fair enough. You and I are neighbors though, I live in Santa Clarita and teach Hunter Ed at Angeles. If you decide that you're through with this thing, let me know. We can work out a deal of some kind and I can use the press for spare parts. If you want to part with any turrets, PM me and lets talk. i could use a spare turret.

[omgb]

I just had another genius idea. PM me. I know a number of guys who would shoot the video stuff for you for free. i teach at a high school with a real top-notch media focus program. I've got a 21 year old in mind who could do it and get it up to Youtube for free.

[cbrick]

omgb, now there's an offer I'll take you up on. I can get this on YouTube (and here) and not have to add the cost of a camera to the cost of the Redding cast iron paper weight. I'll get a PM off to you.

Video (hopefully) coming soon folks. Perhaps Robin Sharpless at Redding will attempt to convince folks that the camera is also a liar. :drinks:

Rick

[shdwlkr]

cbrick
I have several Redding items but after following your post here and a few other places I am looking at Foster and Wilson from now on. Might even look at LEE as they all still thing the customer should be treated fairly.
I am also upset that you have been talked down to. Wish I still was in NY for this one and would love to walk in for a face to face and have them tell me to my face that everything is fine and have them show me just how good it works. It would be so nice to see the expression on their face when they couldn't get it to work either.
Oh well maybe it will be sold to someone who cares about customers then we can go back to them if there are any customers left.

[cbrick]

Got a PM from ombg, looks like we'll be able to do the video of Redding's cast iron paper weight. Can't be this coming weekend, neither of us will available, hopefully the 21 or 22 of this month.

shdwlkr, don't forget RCBS and Hornady. RCBS customer service is still first rate, I had a problem with my RCBS Charge Master Combo. RCBS customer service said no problem, we'll send you a new one with a shipping label for the return of the old one, when you get the new one just use the shipping label and box to return the old one to us. That is customer service, compare this with the treatment Redding dishes out to their victims.

Rick

[klw]

I've never seen Redding make a bad product. The last four cavity mould I bought from them came within the last month and it is, as always, perfect.

I've been thinking a lot about this and I just don't believe it. Redding is about as good at customer service as anyone gets. Everyone can have a bad day, of course, but if you did get a bad product from Redding there is absolutely no question in my mind that they would make it right.

There is CLEARLY a problem here but it isn't Redding!

[cbrick]

Well klw ya got me, just as Redding says . . . I am a liar. I must be, both Redding and now you have said so. Your post as you edited it is extremely insulting and based on NOTHING but your own assumptions.

Might I suggest you wait for the video before you make another attempt at sounding like you know what your talking about and see if you change your tune.

Rick

[klw]

Well klw ya got me, just as Redding says . . . I am a liar. I must be, both Redding and now you have said so. Your post as you edited it is extremely insulting and based on NOTHING but your own assumptions.

Might I suggest you wait for the video before you make another attempt at sounding like you know what your talking about and see if you change your tune.

Rick

You clearly have an anger management problem.

Redding, incidentally, offered a full refund here and that offer was rejected.

[cbrick]

I'm out over $900.00 on products that don't work and all the mfg will do is send emails to other people calling me a liar and I'm mad. Please say it ain't so.

As for klw, there you go again, making assumptions and flapping your gums on a subject that you clearly know absolutely nothing.

Rick

[waksupi]

Cool it down, guys.

[Boomer Mikey]

I know that cbrick knows his stuff... his Redding T7 press issues reminded me about my own problems with bullet run-out.

I purchased one of those excellent run-out gages from Sinclair International about 10 years ago and found my RCBS Rockchucker produced ammo with way too much run-out so I sent my press to RCBS along with a note about excessive run-out in my ammo. I couldn't live without a press at the time so I ordered a new Rockchucker and put it to use while the 15 year old one was being looked at. My ammo loaded with the new Rockchucker had excessive run-out. The old Rockchucker came back a couple of weeks later with a note that it was well within specifications... I finally got around to investigating the issue about 5 years and many thousands of reloads later.

The following information about bullet run-out got me on the right track to solving my run-out issues with my Redding RCBS and Dillon presses. It's one thing to be able to measure run-out but how to resolve run-out issues was another problem for me until I found this info.

"There are several ways to help limit your bullet run out. First thing you need to understand is what is causing your bullet run out from the beginning and in most cases its not when you seat your bullets.

Need to go back to the beginning. First off, virgin brass in general is not the best for getting very low, consistent bullet run outs. You need good brass and you need to fire form it in most cases.

After you fire a case, be careful when you eject the case by controlling it as it’s pulled out of the chamber by your off hand. Take that case; run the fired case your concentricity gauge. It should run very true, less then 1/2 thou run out or you have some issues with your chamber.

Once you prove that your chamber is good concentricity wise, now its time to start the process of loading your case.

What I do to check my FL die, if that is what you’re using, is to pull the expander stem out of the die. Screw the die into the press down to the point you want. Now DO NOT tighten the lock ring down on the die. Again, DO NOT lock the die in place. Will explain why in a bit…

Lube your case, run it up into the die to resize it and then clean it off and check for neck run out. There should really be no neck run out if your dies are in good shape and generally they are.

This tells you your dies are true. So why not lock the lock ring down? Well, your press and your dies are mass produced items, as such there are variables in the machining that will result in a non concentric condition if the die is locked down into the press. This is because all those imperfections in the machining will then be transposed into your case and you will see more neck run outs.

Leaving the die loose will allow the die to self center if you will as you run the case up into the die and generally the neck run outs will be MUCH less using this method. If your worried about the case changing position in the press, take a black marker and make a reference mark on the die and press and you can visually watch to make sure the die does not rotate in the press as you size your cases.

So now you know your chamber is true and your die body is true. Next step and the one that generally causes the most problems with bullet run out in finished ammo is the expander stem.

If you now reinstall your expander stem into your set up die and run one of your sized cases through the die again, you will, about 80% of the time you’ll see that the neck run out increases with the expander stem in the press, why?

Well, it’s because the case is unsupported when the expander button is passing though the case neck and it can be allowed to move in whatever direction it wants. This can range from just a bit of run out to as much as 7 to 8 thou in run out in the worst cases I have seen. So how do we fix this?

This will add a couple steps to your loading process using conventional dies but it will be worth it in the end as far as consistent ammo.

First thing you need to do is deprime your cases. You can either do this using a piece of steel spring wire and your shell holder on the work bench with a small mallet to tap out the primer or you can get a smaller diameter expander button so it will not touch your case neck when you pull the case out. You can also use one of the universal depriming dies as well.

Once you have all your cases deprimed however you choose to do it, There is a rather simple way to set up your die, WITH the expander button to produce much lower neck run outs in your sized case.

Take a fired case, clean and lube it. With your FL die in the location you want, un-tightened, and the expander stem in the die at its conventional location, run your case up into the die. Leave the ram at its top position with the case in the die body. Now back out your expander stem as far as possible. If your using RCBS dies, this will work very well, if your using Redding or others with a different design, it will not work AS well.

Anyway, back off your expander until you feel it stop against the bottom if your case neck inside the case, then turn it back down a 1/2 turn so that there is some clearance between the case and neck with the case is in its top position in the die. Leave the expander loose!!!

Now, lower the case out of the die and you will nearly instantly feel the expander engage the neck of the case, before it has even been released by the neck of the die.

So what does this do for us? Well, we have proven that the die body is true already. AS such, we use that die body to control the case neck as we expand the case. As the expander passes through the case neck, the die is controlling the case neck for nearly all the length that it is being expanded. This will generally GREATLY reduce your neck run outs.

Neck run out is critical because whatever neck run out you have, this will be transposed into bullet run out in finished ammo. If you’re using a conventional seating die, generally you will see the neck run out often double when bullet run out is measured. This means if you are running 1 thou in neck run out, it’s not uncommon to see 2 thou in bullet run out in finished ammo.

My goal is to get all my sized cases ready to load with neck run outs of less then 1 thou. They’re not all to this level using conventional loading dies but using the system described above, most are.

When seating bullets, there is no real way to make a conventional seating die perform better.

In my opinion, it’s much better to get an in-line bullet seating die such as those from Forster or Redding. These dies have a sliding sleeve that controls the case as the bullet is being seated into the case neck. This greatly decreases bullet run out in finished ammo. I again leave these dies loose in the press.

With an in-line die, in most cases, the bullet run out will be basically the same as neck run out in the sized cases you started with. In some cases, it will actually be less then the neck run out, WHY?

Well, if the case necks are inconsistent in thickness, when you expand them with an expander button, the inside of the case mouth may be concentric but the variation in the neck thickness will be transposed to the OD of the case so your neck run outs will read higher then the ID neck run out. This is a good thing! That is why the bullet run out is often less.

If you want to correct this, take a very light neck turning cut to true up the case neck thickness or get better quality brass to start with.

These are the steps I use when using conventional FL die to size cases to get the best neck run out possible. For best bullet run outs, you really need a quality seating die. The Forster dies are not terribly expensive and well worth the cost. The Redding Comp dies are much more spendy, very good but spendy.

If you’re using a Redding FL die, the steps described above will not work AS well but generally, Redding dies produce lower neck run out numbers anyway compared to other FL dies.

If you’re using Hornady dies, at least the newer ones, these methods will not work because they use an expander stem design that needs to be rigid to work.

Many will say using a neck bushing die will solve the problem. My answer to this is yes and no. If you’re using an S-type die, you can still get high neck run outs because the case is not controlled by the die as the neck is sized. You do not have the expander stem issues but you can still get neck run out issues.

I have also had customers spend $200 on a full set of Redding Comp dies only to complain their bullet run outs are higher then they expected them to be. Why?

Well, with a neck bushing die, any imperfection in neck thickness is transposed from the OD of the case neck to the ID of the case neck. When you seat a bullet, the bullet will be guided by the ID of the case neck and as such, will result in higher bullet run outs.

If your using a neck bushing die, it is always recommended to either use the a brand of brass with consistent neck thicknesses or to take a very light truing pass with a neck turner to even up the case neck. That way, the OD and ID of the case neck are running the same run out value and your finished ammo will be much better quality.

If your sized neck run outs are good, less then 1 thou, and your getting bullet run out, there are a couple things to look at, first you need an in-line seater die no questions.

Also, uneven necks can also do this; to that end, uneven inside case mouth chamfering can also do this. Remember that if the bullet can, it will follow the neck and also the chamber on that neck. If the case mouth is uneven or the chamfer uneven, you’ll get increased neck run-out… especially with conventional seating dies.

If you’re looking to get consistent bullet run-outs, you NEED an inline bullet seater, it’s that simple.

A lot of die makers make them, some are better then others. I believe the ones with the full length sliding sleeve are best."

Some of you may find this information as useful as I have.

Have fun,

Boomer :Fire:

[alamogunr]

Now my head hurts. I have saved Boomer's post so I can study it at my leisure. Not often you get the full explanation on how to fix a problem or a perceived problem. Right now I have no way to determine if I have a problem.

By the way, I don't blame cbrick for being upset. I suspect that he talked to a smart a$$ at Redding and if management is aware of the problem it caused, they are not acting responsibly by not resolving the problem. I don't doubt that others who have posted their good experiences are relating things as they know them.

Let's all remember what we are here for.

John
W.TN

[cbrick]

WOW, Mikey, that's quite the post, valid info and very well said.

I don't want to burst your bubble or step on what had to be a lot of time and work but . . . bullet run-out is not the problem with this T-7. Someone else earlier in this thread started talking about bullet run-out and using bullet run-out to check the press but it wasn't me.

The problem with it is the ram and the dies do not align. Put a shell-holder in the ram, screw a die into the press, place a cartridge case in the shell-holder and it doesn't matter if its virgin brass, fire formed brass, straight wall brass or bottle neck brass, raise the ram slowly and when the case mouth gets to the die it is not aligned, it is not in the center of the die, the case is well off to the left side of the die. If you continue to raise the ram you get to watch the case tip to the right as the case mouth hits the chamfered edge of the die so the case mouth can enter the die, you don’t need to measure anything, it’s so far off just watch it happen. My first thought (with the first press) was that the case wasn't straight so I rotated the brass 180 degrees and it did it again with exactly the same result, the left side of the case hits the left side of the die and tips to the right. This was once fired WW brass from my FA and a Redding Carbide sizer. I spent three afternoons swapping dies (calibers) and die plates on the press and nothing changed, every cartridge case in every caliber with each of four die plates did exactly the same thing, in exactly the same way.

If the brass were the problem by rotating it 180 degrees the right side of the case mouth would hit on the right side of the die. It doesn’t, it still hits on the left. I placed the same die, same shell-holder and same piece of brass in the Rockchucker and the brass entered the die perfectly straight. The shell-holder was an RCBS so I borrowed a Redding shell-holder and tried that and nothing changed, straight into the Rockchucker and hitting on the left and tipping to the right in the T-7.

The manager of the reloading store is an NRA certified handloading instructor and before he agreed to send the press and 3 extra plates back to Redding he had me set up the press in the store and demonstrate the problem. He agreed with me completely and instantly agreed to ship it back (my $40.00). He also swapped the press and three additional die plates for me with a brand new in the box T-7. I thought the problem was over at this point but the new press is exactly the same as the first.

I don’t think there is a problem with the die plates; the problem seems to be with the ball detent in the rear of the press that locks up the die plate being located slightly off, because its not located in the correct spot every die plate put on the press is exactly the same amount out of alignment with the ram. That is exactly what two presses with a combined 8 die plates have done. With two presses in a row and both exactly the same there can’t be much doubt it’s a bad run of presses but Redding refuses to admit that’s even a possibility, according to Redding I’m just an idiot and of coarse a liar. Just buy RCBS from now was their advice to me on the phone.

So here I sit with a very expensive piece of Redding cast iron junk and the best I get from Redding is being slandered in emails to other people. And some people can't understand why I would be upset.

Wait for the video.

Rick

[Boomer Mikey]

Hang on there Rick,

The post wasn't even hinting that my problem was the same problem you're experiencing.

At the time I had run-out issues I didn't know anything about dial test indicators and such and I can't take credit for figuring out how to check and correct for run-out. The information is posted for those of us that may find it useful.

I know you well enough to know that you know what you're doing and respect your years of experience and knowledge of reloading quality ammunition.

I have a T7 press and extra turrets; I haven't experienced problems but I don't use it very much. I've also had a bad experience with Redding customer service concerning a Saeco lubricator sizer and a bad 357 mold; however, I've also had bad experiences with Lee Precision and other manufacturers.

I understand why you're upset and sympathise with you about the whole situation. Where do you go from here?

There are plenty of talented guys that can correct your press alignment issues (Dewey comes to mind). I know it shouldn't come to this but it's better than an otherwise useless ***.

Have fun,

Boomer :Fire:

[Creedmoor]

Well, this was an eye opener "for sure and for certain".

I just left Cabelas after nearly plunking down about $250 for a new T-7. I decided I would sleep on it for a night before committing. Glad I did! I won't be buying Redding any time soon, if ever.

I had always been told that Redding was the best, so that's what I wanted. Not sure where to go now. I have had hit and miss quality experiences with RCBS and Lyman. RCBS was as good as gold when it came to making it right. I didn't even have to pay shipping to return a defective product. Lyman on the other hand gave me the "It's within specs so live with it." line.

For peace of mind's sake I guess I'll remain a loyal RCBS customer. After all, isn't that what Redding is advising? Probably good advice.

[#2Alloy]

This thread is terribly disgusting. May I ask at what point did you lose the whole concept of having a hobby? Have you actually looked at factory ammo and checked the concentricity of it?

Why can't you just have fun? There are tolerences in everything made, whether it is manufactured here or overseas.

I think many are hiding behind a .001 tolerence issue as simply an excuse for some other shortcoming.

Customer Service representatives rarely get the appreciation they deserve. They are expected to know every detail of every item and every possible thing someone could dream of to use the item, usually greated with a nasty reply from the customer.

For Heaven's Sake - get over yourselves and get out and shoot the gun, not your mouths.

Remember why you reload, have fun! Isn't that why you do it?

[Boomer Mikey]

This thread is terribly disgusting. May I ask at what point did you lose the whole concept of having a hobby? Have you actually looked at factory ammo and checked the concentricity of it?

Why can't you just have fun? There are tolerences in everything made, whether it is manufactured here or overseas.

I think many are hiding behind a .001 tolerence issue as simply an excuse for some other shortcoming.

Customer Service representatives rarely get the appreciation they deserve. They are expected to know every detail of every item and every possible thing someone could dream of to use the item, usually greated with a nasty reply from the customer.

For Heaven's Sake - get over yourselves and get out and shoot the gun, not your mouths.

Remember why you reload, have fun! Isn't that why you do it?

Excuse me sir,

Everyone is entitled to enjoy their hobbies the way they want to.

Rick has a valid issue and has been treated poorly by any remote standard of customer service. I for one was insulted by the customer service staff at Redding a couple of years ago and discussed the issue with Richard Bebee, the owner of Redding Products at the SHOT show in Las Vegas. Apparently the low quality of the staff at Redding wasn't and still isn't an important issue. I still purchase Redding and Lee products; however, I will only purchase them from a supplier that has a money back policy If I return an item.

Competitive shooters use precision reloading practices to produce handloads that are superior to factory ammo for their needs. If you don't know the difference or care that's fine with me but it's disgusting to me that you would badmouth someone for wanting to get what they paid for. Redding plays the theme of making "the" products you need to be competitive and Redding's prices reflect it.

I find it odd that Redding doesn't offer a no questions asked, money back guarantee with proof of purchase for at least 90 days. With that kind of policy even poor customer service is covered.

Boomer

[Echo]

Yeah, #2, but someone a lot smarter than I once said 'Only accurate rifles are interesting' - I think his name was Whelen, or Hatcher, or something. And accuracy is a subjective thing. I have seen targets posted that I would have burned before allowing anyone else to see them, and if cbrick wants perfection, that is his perogative (and perfection is subjective, too). If his experiments show that his equipment is faulty, and the company's tests do not agree, then the company needs to check their QC effort.

I'm a hobbyist, too (not competitive any more - old, ugly, out of condition,out of practice,out of almost everything) , but I want the results of my hobby to satisfying to me. Not necessarily world-record performance, but as good as I can reasonably make it. There's that subjective thing again. Some folks talk about using culled boolits as plinkers - WTH! If it's a cull, IT'S A CULL, and won't be as accurate as our best effort, so is less likely to hit the can, or rock, that we typically shoot plinkers at.

Hmmm... I see I'm starting to rant. Gilda said, 'Never Mind'... but . . .

Back on track - when I was a Management Consultant I would occasionally ask my client if he was running a business, or a social service agency. Hiring family members, or disadvantaged folks, may be laudable, but the bottom line is that the business comes first, and employees MUST be able to do the job. If they can't adequately perform the job they are in, then they should be allowed to move to some other venue where they might be able to excell. And when that job is Customer Service, THAT is where the rubber meets the road and they had better do it right, or ELSE! Don't know if this (social service agency) is a problem @ Redding, but CS is the second-most important function of a company (quality product is first), as Redding is finding out...

[Geraldo]

The problem with it is the ram and the dies do not align. Put a shell-holder in the ram, screw a die into the press, place a cartridge case in the shell-holder and it doesn't matter if its virgin brass, fire formed brass, straight wall brass or bottle neck brass, raise the ram slowly and when the case mouth gets to the die it is not aligned, it is not in the center of the die, the case is well off to the left side of the die. If you continue to raise the ram you get to watch the case tip to the right as the case mouth hits the chamfered edge of the die so the case mouth can enter the die, you don’t need to measure anything, it’s so far off just watch it happen. My first thought (with the first press) was that the case wasn't straight so I rotated the brass 180 degrees and it did it again with exactly the same result, the left side of the case hits the left side of the die and tips to the right.

Did you rotate the shellholders during this experiment? I ask because I tried to replicate your results on my T-7 and found that the cases almost always lean toward the opening cut in the shellholders (4 different RCBS).

[cbrick]

You clearly have an anger management problem.

Redding, incidentally, offered a full refund here and that offer was rejected.

To get back to this Mr. klw . . . that is a blatant lie by redding. NO they did not offer me a full refund or a partial refund or any other kind of refund or a new "workable" press or anything else from Redding. What they offered me was no, we don't need to see the second press, don't send it back there is nothing wrong with it, just buy RCBS from now on. They did suggest I return it to the store where I bought it but that is hardly Redding offering me any kind of refund. And if the store refuses to take it back which they did??? hhmmm? In a way the store is correct, they didn't make a bad press, Redding did and the store already shipped one back even if it was my dime. Redding offered me no recourse whatsoever.

Redding also slandered my name in emails to people that have no standing in this case. You of coarse are free to believe Redding over me if that makes you feel good but I suggest you do not watch the video when its completed.

Rick

[Willbird]

Redding also slandered my name in emails to people that have no standing in this case. You of coarse are free to believe Redding over me if that makes you feel good but I suggest you do not watch the video when its completed.

Rick

Actually this statement is not true.

I emailed Redding and told them that if what you said was true that they wronged you, and that as a long term redding customer I had some concerns about being a customer in the future.

So I took your side in this and complained, I DID have standing in this case. Their reply is only slander if it is untrue and was said to cause harm.

Also not that I doubt your complaint about the bullet molds, but to be fair you should say "they wanted to see them but I never bothered to send them back"

Bill

[45nut]

If at any time a company insists on volume over quality and precision then someone will get caught with a bad product, more than likely it will take someone with above average skill and knowledge in our , ahem, "hobby" to catch a QC issue in these times of "panic buying" and shortages across the spectrum of the shooting industry.
There are people buying reloading equipment now far exceeding industry standards of years past due to the shortages of ammunition across the counters of walmart and other retailers.

People are looking for options in keeping their newly acquired guns more than just paperweights and this drives people here and other forums in seeking options to the shortages and the high prices caused by those same shortages.

That is putting extreme pressure on all vendors and manufacturers in the shooting sports and in seeking to meet demand their may be some substandard equipment shipped, that is certain since all machinery is somehow dependent on humans and obviously no human is exempt from mistakes, including yours truly.

Redding is in business to make money and to make money they have to sell product, to sell product they rely on advertising and a reputation of quality since 1946.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/media/totalquality.jpg

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/totalquality.html

We the customers are part and parcel of the "Total Quality Team."

If something is wrong it is part of their mission statement to make it right, that's all Rick was after.

There is a law on the books because manufacturers were taking advantage of us called the "lemon law", primarily enforced against auto and truck makers but it applies to all consumer goods and certainly would here.
Simply because their may be personality conflicts between Redding and Rick should not exempt Redding from making good on their slogan of total quality and "Don't ship it if you wouldn't buy it!"
IF we as "consumers" of any reloading equipment have no voice and are expected to merely toss it out and try again then we are doomed.

I am not pleased their is a thread calling out Redding here, but there is an issue and if we are to merely shut up and accept lemons then there will be millions more shipped to us from every corner.

I fear volume over quality may soon be exposed industry wide. I certainly hope for the best but the experts at Bear Stearns , Lehman Bros. and AIG were the ones that crippled their industry also.

Let's not always assume the industry insiders are our allies, and we all know how much the whistle blower is despised.

The canary in our coal mine may be ill.

[Willbird]

I guess you have to decide who to believe.

I'd sure like to see proof that the press is bad. It is hard to believe with all the folks we have here that nobody has access to a CMM.

Bill

[monadnock#5]

In the Book of Job we learn that at his darkest moment of despair, having lost his health, his wives, his children, his land and all his stock, it was then that three of his peers approached him and demanded that he confess the sin(s) that had caused God to deprive him of everything he held dear on this plain of existence. That's what I saw in this thread when I first tuned in. Perhaps Rick would agree that he should have bought a Lee press at this juncture, but that hardly addresses the $900 of defective products he now owns.

Rick and I have never been buddies. I've no doubt that Rick would have preferred someone with more stature and that he liked better than me to support him. When I saw no one else step up, I did.

In the course of this thread I have injected my own hidden agenda. That's where the rants on press runout came from. Rick has been quite tolerant of my agenda pursuits. Any bump that doesn't call into question his knowledge, abilities and integrity is a good bump.

Thank you Boomer Mikey for the treatise you presented on the issue of runout. It obviously took you much time to type it up. The advise within is as well presented and clear as any advise I have seen printed on this Board. Thank you. I will put your lessons to good use in the near future.

[PineTreeGreen]

I recently bought a .300/221 bbl.(300 Whisper) from Match Grade Machine. My intent is to shoot IHMSA with this bbl.
Last week I ordered a #301 SAECO mould from Graf&Son. Today I cast about 30 boolits and dug out my calipers. When I started to look at the castings.something wasn't right. I went to Redding's printed catalog,Graf's web site and Redding's web site and sure enough they all listed the #301 as a gc'ed mould. The one I got from Graf is PLAIN base. :( We'll see what happens.
It seems like the cherry was not set up right.

[Fossil]

Hi All.
Iam new to this site, in all honesty I joined because while "Guesting" ,this thread really got my attention!
Any update on when to expect the video ?

Must admit, my only press was a Lyman All American, and I sort of lost that to a brother in law after the divorce.
It never let me down though.

[Gelandangan]

cbrick,
it has been over 6 months since the last post on this thread.

What is the conclusion?
Is there a valid problem?
Did Redding fix the problem?

[cbrick]

What is the conclusion?

Nothing has changed, I'm still out $900.00


Is there a valid problem?

Yes, of coarse there is.


Did Redding fix the problem?

No, Redding has done nothing. The recoarse from Redding is zero. The mould I had fixed (at a cost to me of about $60.00) by having the driving bands machined. The press is useless but since it doesn't throw spent primers all over like the Rockchucker I do sometimes use it to de-cap. Pretty expensive decapper huh?

Buy Redding if you must but as for me, I'll take Redding's wise advice and buy RCBS. RCBS will honor their warranty and fix any problem but even bigger than that . . . they won't send out emails slandering you . . . which Redding did to me rather than fix THEIR problems.

Rick

[JesterGrin_1]

Well Darn I was looking into some 35 Whelen Die's from Redding but now I may have to look some place else.

[quasi]

Redding makes the best full line of reloading tools. I will continue to buy their products.

[1hole]

"...it deflected the consumer's attention from the real question. "Who makes the best press on the market in terms of bullet/ boolit to case concentricity and on target accuracy?"

Ah, "best press" and .002" runout? If only it were that simple!

First, the "best" press would have to be an arbor press using hand dies; we don't do that. NONE of our threaded die bench presses can be counted on to be best, not even on a provable average!

A press is only the means of pushing a die into and withdrawing it from a die, the dies do the work so the press is not nearly as critical as some believe it to be, bullet bullet runout depends on much more than that. In fact that's likely the least influential of a long string of things; the cases themselves, the sizer and how it's used, the expander and method of use, and the seating die all contribute a lot (percentage wise) to runout. I suppose we could say whichever one was our biggest error contributor would be our own most critical. ?

At least a modest amount of 'slop' in the fit of a ram is actually a help for making concentric ammo. No press can force a case into a die straight, it will do that of its own accord unless the press interferes. Slight degrees of angular error between the ram and die can be accomidated without injury IF there's enough slack in the ram-to-body and/or shell holder-to-case fit to allow cases to self center into the die.

I have a machinest's magnetic tool base with a .001" dial indicator. I use four pressses; a cast iron Rock Chucker II, an OLD cast iron Lyman six station turret with a pretty worn, floppy ram and two of the very small Lee aluminum alloy "C" type "Reloader" presses. I've checked the die spring of each while FL sizing .30-06 using the same batch of cases, same Forster BR dies and Imperial lube. The Lyman turret was the worst of course (forget how bad but it was way over 10 thou), the RC sprung 3 thou. Surprise! Both of the small Lee presses had too little spring to measure! Not saying the Lees are the "strongest" but they were the most rigid! That seems to be true of all of Lee's alum alloy presses, they are VERY rigid within the limits of their strength and that rigidity seems to make it easier to make concentric ammo than many people believe.

I have a concentricity gauge with a .0001" dial indicator. It's tested the runout of .22-250 ammo made from the same batch of ten neck turned cases while using the same dies/shell holder in all four of my presses. With proper die adjustment and press operation to compensate for the nature of each press, I found no statistically significant runout differences in the ammo made with any of my four presses. My test series was too small to have great statistical validity but it sure proved to me that the press used to load is NOT a critical eliment in accuracy but good tecniques and methods are!

I have also gage tested significant amounts of ammo made with more than thirty sets of dies of various brands and models. I've found as much average variablity between dies of the same brand as beween most brands. Touting "brand "X" is always the best" will be hard for anyone to prove with a gauge and more than one set of dies!

The Redding Comp and Forster BR dies (only) do have a small but clear AVERAGE advantage for better average concentricity. But, if/when the manufactoring tolerances of any individual die's parts/machining adds the right way it will load as well as any die we could wish. Sadly, that perfection rarely occurs but even the worst of our dies are usually quite good. In fact, the only really poor sizer die I have found was from a company that's been out of business for decades!

Without a straight and consistant case neck to work with nothing else matters a lot, at least not for me. No matter the seating die, I get much better (average) case neck concentricity from Lee's simple and inexpensive collet neck sizers than from any other type or brand of die. It does have a moving part that some folks have difficulty learning to use well, it's not a simple "push the case in and pull the case out" thing so they would do better with a more conventional neck sizer. And a simple neck turner can do wonders for uniforming most necks before sizing.

Bottom line, don't expect to buy any press or dies and see magic things happen to concentricity. It just ain't that simple.

[Recluse]

Nothing has changed, I'm still out $900.00

No, Redding has done nothing. The recoarse from Redding is zero. The mould I had fixed (at a cost to me of about $60.00) by having the driving bands machined. The press is useless but since it doesn't throw spent primers all over like the Rockchucker I do sometimes use it to de-cap. Pretty expensive decapper huh?

Rick,

Bad as I hate lawyers and courtrooms. . . However, there is no doubt in my mind that I'd drag this thing into Small Claims Court.

The amounts of settlement/recourse/damages/etc for Small Claims Court are usually capped at $10,000--so you're well under that amount. In addition, rarely any reason you would need to retain an attorney to represent you. You have the equipment and you have the proof, and in addition, you have written statements (e-mails) from Redding themselves.

I'd simply file the claim, let a court date get set, bide your time and then get someone from Redding inside the courtroom and get everything that occurred on the record.

In addition, from your locale, you have some folks that could be extremely credible witnesses on your behalf.

I think a huge deciding factor on your behalf would be the fact that you own so many Redding products and have been so loyal to them in the past.

Have no idea what it costs to file a Small Claims Court scenario out there, but a quick phone call or google search could probably give you a quick idea. At the very least, win-lose-or draw, you'd get your pound of flesh with somebody from Redding, and after all you've been through, THAT would be worth the filing fee.


Buy Redding if you must but as for me, I'll take Redding's wise advice and buy RCBS. RCBS will honor their warranty and fix any problem but even bigger than that . . . they won't send out emails slandering you . . . which Redding did to me rather than fix THEIR problems.

Rick

I'd say the e-mails would be very good evidence in a Small Claims Court case. This is also an instance where a good gunwriter could sure have an interesting time. Nice story fodder: "Good Brand Gone Bad--Where Did Redding Go Wrong?" Your story plus the e-mail responses about you just might get some things changed so far as the way Redding does business.

I've read and re-read this entire thread the past day or so. I'm looking at some precision dies for 30-06 and was considering Redding until my memory tapped me on the noggin and reminded me of your experience. I do believe I'm going to hold off on purchasing anything Redding for a while.

And, quite honestly, the $900 you're out of is chump change to Redding in terms of what it'd take to square you up. But that $900 could easily grow to become a huge stinkin' albatross hanging around their neck.

I'd seriously consider the Small Claims Court filing. You file, you pay your fee, and then you simply wait for your date to come up. No hassles. No having to meet with lawyers. No constant one expense after another. No continuances or any other (typical) nonsense. It's pretty simple and non-stressful.

It's still an American way to "have your day in court."

:coffee:

[Rick459]

keep in mind that he is using a Forster Co-Ax press for this test. having just purchased a Forster Co-Ax i too am getting les than .001 runout using the Co-Ax and the collet die. even when using my forster bench rest dies with the Co-Ax my runout is .001 or less. but i do not use the expander ball in the die and expand the necks in another step. that's why they invented the bushing sizer dies to eliminate the runout that is created by the expander ball and presses that are mass produced and the alignment of the ram to the press just being off a hair.
Rick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg

[Willbird]

keep in mind that he is using a Forster Co-Ax press for this test. having just purchased a Forster Co-Ax i too am getting les than .001 runout using the Co-Ax and the collet die. even when using my forster bench rest dies with the Co-Ax my runout is .001 or less. but i do not use the expander ball in the die and expand the necks in another step. that's why they invented the bushing sizer dies to eliminate the runout that is created by the expander ball and presses that are mass produced and the alignment of the ram to the press just being off a hair.
Rick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg


Also the bushing neck dies let you adjust how much the neck is being sized down. In 22-250 for example many brands of brass in most normal FL dies get sized down .008" before the neck expander ball gets dragged back through the neck to open it back up .006". The drag through expander does not work bad if it just opens things up .001 to .002 to keep everything consistent, and having a neck bushing allows you to get just that.

I don't think the OP would take his money back if it was offered. He did not even send back the bullet molds he said were bad for Redding to have a look at them.

Bill

[cbrick]

I don't think the OP would take his money back if it was offered. He did not even send back the bullet molds he said were bad for Redding to have a look at them. Bill

You can keep saying that all you want, it changes nothing. It is a blatant lie so just keep saying it.

Redding may have told you that they wanted the moulds back but that sure as h*ll ain't what they told me. Redding told me "DO NOT SEND THEM BACK, WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM".

You are welcome to believe whatever you want Willbird but until you know the facts instead of what it is you would like to believe I suggest you stop calling me a liar.

Rick

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

Did you rotate the shellholders during this experiment? I ask because I tried to replicate your results on my T-7 and found that the cases almost always lean toward the opening cut in the shellholders (4 different RCBS).

Cbrick,

Did you ever do this? Geraldo posts a very valid "experiment".

[cbrick]

Many times and everything else I could think of including rotating it 180 degrees and other suggestions from others. I bought additional shellholders including a Redding and borrowed still others. The problem is not the shellholder.

Rick

[BD]

This is a simple issue to understand, and probably a difficult issue to correct. It may be that Redding has no confidence that they can address it by replacing the out of spec press as all of them are being cast and machined "out of house".

The assembly of two different parts, machined separately, which need to precisely align after assembly is tough. A couple of very small tolerances stacking in opposite directions can easily sink the ship.

I've had some real good luck with Redding products in the past, and they've stood behind them. However, after this thread I don't think I'd buy one of their turret presses without being able to try it first. Too bad.
BD

[Ozark Howler]

I wonder if Redding has an accredited Quality Manual, or subscribes to any kind of ISO standards (ISO 9001), if so, they would have to address all known problems and find a resolution

From the above problems it sounds like they are only looking at dollars instead of striving for quality, I have been seriously looking at the T7, but in light of what I hear, I will take a pass on Redding......

Thanks for the heads up.....

[Marlin Hunter]

I was never impressed with Redding products. I sold all but one Redding products that I owned. I still have their 44 spl/mag die set, and may sell it. I would rather buy Lee or Hornady products.

[JesterGrin_1]

And to think this thread is over a year old. Something has to give.

[gray wolf]

I will chime in--I got a redding full lenght die for my 270 win. The the thing sizes the necks so small I almost broke the bench and my press trying to get the expander ball out.

They sent me a new expander and it is still ****. In case that gets bleep out for the record it is
$$hitt. Got forester bushing bump dies and a body die with there bench rest seater and did not look back. I also use some sinclare stuf and it is very good.

[TAWILDCATT]

I have two Redding items.a scale and powder trickler,both work well I use the scall in congunction with an RCBS.
I wonder if Redding gets finished products from china or just the castings.RCBS gets castings from china.theres nothing wrong with chinese products if the importer asks for quality.the chinese have come a long way.you do know they made arms equil to any since the 1900s.
I dont think we have many foundries left in USA because of eviormental activist.

[JesterGrin_1]

What does everyone think of there Die's are they still good or is a person better off with going with another company?

You see I will be looking for some 35 Whelen Die's soon.

[TAWILDCATT]

I have two Redding items.a scale and powder trickler,both work well I use the scall in congunction with an RCBS.
I wonder if Redding gets finished products from china or just the castings.RCBS gets castings from china.theres nothing wrong with chinese products if the importer asks for quality.the chinese have come a long way.you do know they made arms equil to any since the 1900s.
I dont think we have many foundries left in USA because of eviormental activist.

[Willbird]

You can keep saying that all you want, it changes nothing. It is a blatant lie so just keep saying it.

Redding may have told you that they wanted the moulds back but that sure as h*ll ain't what they told me. Redding told me "DO NOT SEND THEM BACK, WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM".

You are welcome to believe whatever you want Willbird but until you know the facts instead of what it is you would like to believe I suggest you stop calling me a liar.

Rick

HOW did Redding tell you this ??

In the Email I got from Redding, and forwarded to you, the person who replied to me said he wanted to see those bullet molds. Maybe he is lying, however you chose not to send them back, then had somebody else alter them, so the bullet molds are now a moot point.

Heck if you wish, go ahead and post that whole email, my reasons for not allowing you to post it whatever they were are of no consequence, go ahead and post it.

Bill

[JesterGrin_1]

Yes I agree please by all means post the said letter.

[Willbird]

I no longer have it, but several others have asked for it, and I sent it to them via PM. I cleaned up my PM's awile back and must have deleted it.

[Idaho_Elk_Huntr]

I have 23 sets of Redding dies and they are the best made in my opinion. I have had problems and and have always been taken care of

[cbrick]

How did he tell me?? On the phone, that's how. He wouldn't even discuss the moulds, he flat out said there was nothing wrong with them. His words were . . . DO NOT SEND THEM BACK, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM.

Yes, I had one of the moulds repaired. Why wouldn't I? It was completely useless and Redding flat out refused to not only honor their own written warranty but to even look at the defective moulds. It was either fix it on my dime or throw it in the trash.

Since your complete knowledge of the situation is the email from Redding you need to stop calling me a liar. (The very same email where he both lied through his teeth and slandered me because Redding products that I spent $900.00 on were crappola).

Through this entire thread I have not so much as exaggerated much less lied.

Believe what you want Willbird but stop calling me a liar, you know not of what you speak.

Rick

[Shooter6br]

I have a Redding BR-30 meausure It works great. I use mainly Lee and RCBS products. RCBS has the best customer service and parts replacement policy (so far)

[cbrick]

I have 23 sets of Redding dies and they are the best made in my opinion. I have had problems and and have always been taken care of

I can't argue that Idaho Elk Hunter, before I had a problem (with 4 separate Redding products) I was their biggest supporter and promoter. For a few years before I found out what it's like to deal with Redding nearly every reloading tool I bought said Redding on it and I recommended them 100%. Not any more! Never again until I get a public apology from Redding and recourse on my $900.00. I think that's unlikely, there doesn't seem to be enough integrity at Redding based on how they slandered me rather than fix obvious problems.

I have taught many people to reload and continue to. Most everyone that knows me knows I have hand loaded all my life and I frequently am asked questions and advice including but hardly limited to forums such as this one. That advice now includes a stern warning about Redding products and the possible lack of customer service. Will I put Redding out of business? Hardly, that would be a silly thought. Will I get into their pocket? Absolutely! I know for a fact of many die sets, moulds etc that others have bought in the last year that did not say Redding on them based solely on my recommendations. All of these people and as many more as I can talk with in the future will go through life with words of caution about Redding. All of these people will talk with more people and on and on . . . All the while costing Redding more and more sales. Plus of course the various moulds and tools that I bought myself in the last year.

Yep, I used to sing the praises of Redding. All of this seems to be how Redding likes it though based on zero response from them. Yes, they have read this thread but no idea if they still do. I fully believe they simply don't care enough or have the integrity to keep or make customers happy.

Buy Redding if you wish but if there is a problem . . . You have been warned.

Rick

[felix]

Jester, for your Whelen.........

Send 3 heavy load fired cases, those with the thinnest necks, to Forester/Bonanza and be done with the die fit BS. If for lead boolits, send boolits and tell them no more than 0.002 ID necks after sizing. Use the cases with the thickest necks for condoms, because they should give more springback to hold those bullets tighter. Get sizer and seater and a fitted case holder to provide a 0.0005 bump when sizing die turned to just barely touch the holder. ... felix

[Willbird]

How did he tell me?? On the phone, that's how. He wouldn't even discuss the moulds, he flat out said there was nothing wrong with them. His words were . . . DO NOT SEND THEM BACK, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM.

Yes, I had one of the moulds repaired. Why wouldn't I? It was completely useless and Redding flat out refused to not only honor their own written warranty but to even look at the defective moulds. It was either fix it on my dime or throw it in the trash.

Since your complete knowledge of the situation is the email from Redding you need to stop calling me a liar. (The very same email where he both lied through his teeth and slandered me because Redding products that I spent $900.00 on were crappola).

Through this entire thread I have not so much as exaggerated much less lied.

Believe what you want Willbird but stop calling me a liar, you know not of what you speak.

Rick

I never called you a liar. I DO know everything I have said here is the truth as far as I know it.

Please go ahead and post up the email I PM'd to you that I got from Redding, or one of the other folks that asked for it and who received it can post it up.

When two people say two different things (you, and the guy from Redding) pointing out that there are two different stories is not calling either person a liar.


Bill

[cbrick]

I never called you a liar. I DO know everything I have said here is the truth as far as I know it.

The truth as you know it is the lies from redding in the email to you. You were not part of the phone calls with Redding and you are repeating what they wrote to you and nothing more.


Please go ahead and post up the email I PM'd to you that I got from Redding, or one of the other folks that asked for it and who received it can post it up.

I am on a new computer and have none of the emails from the old computer.


When two people say two different things (you, and the guy from Redding) pointing out that there are two different stories is not calling either person a liar. Bill

Yes, you are certainly calling me a liar when you continue to post that I refused to send the moulds back to Redding. You are repeating a lie that you choose to believe as if it were a fact. It is not! It is not even in the realm of reality and that in fact is calling me a liar.

Rick

[Willbird]

The truth as you know it is the lies from redding in the email to you. You were not part of the phone calls with Redding and you are repeating what they wrote to you and nothing more.



I am on a new computer and have none of the emails from the old computer.



Yes, you are certainly calling me a liar when you continue to post that I refused to send the moulds back to Redding. You are repeating a lie that you choose to believe as if it were a fact. It is not! It is not even in the realm of reality and that in fact is calling me a liar.

Rick

The gentleman from Redding said he wanted to "see those molds" in his email. I'm sure somebody else still has the PM. I sent it to you as a PM not an email, PM's are stored on the server here.

It amazes me that you did not save that email as important as it may be to your case.

I fail to see how you could ever recover the cost of the molds if you never sent them back for inspection, then had somebody else modify them, so the molds are a moot point, you destroyed your case there when you had them modified.

I still stand by my assertion that you would not take your money back in return for the product you claim is defective, you would lose the ax you have been grinding all along here.

Bill

[cbrick]

Here is post #31 dated 1-27-09 of this thread (page 2) that I made right after the phone call with Redding. An email by Redding a few days later that was intended to cover their own hieny and slander me to do it has no bearing on anything.

Rick


I just spent 23 minutes on the phone with Redding. Redding's best advice, nothing wrong with their products . . . it's all me and I should buy RCBS products.

NO . . . that's not a joke, that's what Redding told me. Several times in fact.

The first T-7 press went back to Redding with the original die plate and 3 additional plates. Redding said one of the plates was indeed off but the other 3 were fine therefore the second press and 4 total die plates that I have are also fine. They suggested that I return everything to the store and buy RCBS from now on.

As for the two SAECO moulds, 441 and 446, that also is all me. Little of the conversation was devoted to the moulds, all he said was alloy and casting temp, couldn't be their moulds and no they don't want them back under warranty.

As for the neck thickness gauge they wouldn't even discuss it when I mentioned it.

Great customer service huh?

As for me, after 45+ years of handloading and 25+ years of shooting exclusively my own cast boolits (my handloads loaded with my cast bullets have won me both national and state championships in long range handgun) I'm off to learn how to raise the press ram so the cartridge case goes straight into the die and not at an angle. Perhaps I can take lessons because after all it must be me, Redding says so.

They did confirm (as their web site states) that everything Redding is indeed American made with the exception of the dial indicator.

Rick

[buck1]

Thats too bad about redding! They used to be top shelf. But RCBS has been so good to me I mostly throw my $s that was anyway....Buck

[shdwlkr]

Cbrick
I was hoping this whole mess had been cleaned up and you were a happy camper. Seems that the owner just doesn't care, oh well I will take my money to rcbs and others, I don't need the hassles you have had to put up with.
I have no question that you are stating your side of the issue and what Redding has told you and that is good enough for me.
thanks for keeping us informed and I for one am done with Redding.

[cbrick]

For those interested but don't want to re-read a lengthy thread here is post #51 dated Feb 3, 09 (page 3) that concerns the email from Redding. The entire email Redding sent regarding this matter had very little to no truth in it. It was one outright lie after another and was written to slander me.

That simple fact says a great deal about the lack of integrity at Redding. Slander a customer rather than admit a problem . . . Simply amazing.

Rick


Redding answered emails in response to this thread and the main drift of a rather lengthy paragraph was to discredit me. The person that forwarded this email to me asked not to post it so I won't but a few of Redding's highlights,

1> He said I am hiding behind a "handle" in this forum, not true, many here know exactly who and where I am. For any that don't they simply need to click on cbrick to look at my profile then click on my web page, lots of info about me there. I am not hiding from or behind anything.

2> Redding (Robin Sharpless, Director of Sales & Marketing, Redding Reloading Equipment) said that I explained how much I like my Rockchucker. That is a blatant lie and he knows it. I mentioned the Rockchucker only to say that I put the same shell holder, the same cartridge case and the same Redding carbide die in the Rockchucker to test if the brass or shell holder where the problem. It wasn't. I never told him if I liked or hated it, simply that I did this test and the alignment was perfect where it's not in either the first or the second T-7.

3> He said the alignment of the first T-7 returned to the factory was perfect (but he did admit one of the four die plates was off) and therefore the second one (press and four die plates) that I still have is also perfect and no, he doesn't want it back because there is nothing wrong with it. He said in his email that the store paid shipping to return the press and he knows full well that I paid $40.00 up front for shipping before the store would consider returning it.

4> He said that he offered me a full refund. That is a blatant lie, he did not, he offered nothing from Redding. His best offer was "Take it back and buy RCBS".

5> He said that in my posts here "there have been a host of truths which were electively omitted". Another blatant lie. I didn't even exagerate anything.

6> He said that he asked for the SAECO moulds to be returned. A blatant lie. Very little of our 23 minute phone call (my dime) was about the moulds but rather than ask for their return he specifically said he didn't want them back because like the presses, there is nothing wrong with them.

There is much more in his lengthy email and the majority of it is directed solely at discrediting me.

Hiding behind "cbrick"

[tubb_ooh_lard]

first off i would like to thank cbrick after reading all 10 pages of this thread for what seems to me to be complete honesty in what is just an all around bad deal .. being new to this forum ive asked for advice on boolit molds and such and have had the saeco molds recomended quite often now i am glad i cheaped out an bought a couple lee molds for my sharps i think ill save my money to spend elswhere ... now heres something i dont understand whats this " willbird" charecters stake in this whole problem im not seeing a reason for his whole attitude towards cbricks problem his remarks make me ashamed of the fact that he lives in the same state as me .. anyway thanks to cbrick ill never make the mistake of giving redding a single penny .. thanks

[cbrick]

The gentleman from Redding said he wanted to "see those molds" in his email. I'm sure somebody else still has the PM. I sent it to you as a PM not an email, PM's are stored on the server here.

It amazes me that you did not save that email as important as it may be to your case.

I fail to see how you could ever recover the cost of the molds if you never sent them back for inspection, then had somebody else modify them, so the molds are a moot point, you destroyed your case there when you had them modified.

I still stand by my assertion that you would not take your money back in return for the product you claim is defective, you would lose the ax you have been grinding all along here. Bill

Be amazed all you like, it's very difficult to save emails or anything else from a crashed hard drive.

The %^&* from Redding is a bold faced liar, he is certainly no gentleman (gentelmen have integrity). The part of this that seems to be over your head willbird is that he told YOU (yes you, with no standing in any of this) he would give me a refund and wanted to see the moulds. He told ME the exact opposite. Think real hard, maybe you can see a difference there.

What are you smoking? Recover the cost of the moulds? How do you propose I accomplish that when Redding said do not return them? Take my money back? You are smoking something, Redding offered me nothing, no recourse whatsoever on the moulds or anything else. Everything in the email to you from Robin Sharpless that you take as gospel was an outright lie.

Your only stake in this entire thing is reading this thread and then sending Redding an email about it. Redding answered that email with a page full of lies in an attempt to slander me. That gives you no standing to call me a liar. You had zero part in lengthy phone calls with Redding and have no clue what your talking about.

To say that your posts are offensive is putting it mildly.

Ax to grind my heiny.

Rick

[Willbird]

And I sent that email to Redding in the first place because I felt that if they screwed you, they should make it right.

What I have said here might be offensive to YOU because it is not in complete agreement with everything you say. As I said the email was sent by PM, which is stored on the server HERE not on your computer. So for it to be gone you DELETED it, and if you deleted it, it was not very important to you....was it ??

Bill

[No_1]

Guys,

Is there any reason to continue beating this up? You have both had ample say and it is obvious that neither will ever agree. Can we just agree that we disagree and let it go?

Robert

[shdwlkr]

administrators
please lock this thread
thanks

[Bradley]

My experience with Redding over the decades has been very positive. I've had the occasional problem with a product but I returned them and they were replaced. I couldn't be happier. Actually I don't know of a single major manufacturer that hasn't treated me very well and, as a customer, I couldn't be less important to them. So I think that all these firms do an excellent job.

My concern isn't the manufacturers. I have a very high regard for all of them. My concern is this thread. Whatever the truth might be, I think that continuing this discussion makes us, all of us, look rather bad.

[Gary51]

This horse is long dead, lets beat it some more.