Old Model Flattop 44…

[Dave Dill]

I’ve had an Old Model Flattop 44 Mag with a serial # under 6000 for over ten years now, and it’s the big iron I cut my teeth on reloading and especially casting. Yes, it’s a Blackhawk. Yes, it’s in very good condition. But I sometimes loose sleep loading 44 Mag loads under H&G 503 bullets filled with copious amounts H110 and 2400 being it’s 66 years old.

As these guns age, should we start backing off heavy loads? Is it time to run specials through this old model and purchase a newer/ new super Blackhawk, or will these Old Models take 21 grains of 2400 under 250!grain cast bullets for a century?

[Martin Luber]

I don't think anyone can legally or physically answer that for you since there are so many other factors to consider. Some revolvers crack their frame at the barrel for example. For one, l just don't enjoy that kind of punch. 11 gr of Herco and a 240 lead makes me go Oooff!. 4.0 Bullseye is more my speed...

[Dave Dill]

Hi Martin,

The nature of my question wasn’t looking for an “answer” per se, as much as I was seeking general wisdom or rules of thumb regarding heavy duty, but vintage Rugers like mine and maybe some metallurgy knowledge. It’s in great shape and shoots excellent still, I just… wonder if backing off it is something done by those who know as they get near 3/4 a Century old.

[Bazoo]

I personally don’t know of any reason it wouldn’t continue with a diet of full house loads. It may be old now, but it was still made the new way with new metals back then. The fact that it’s this old and still going strong is a testament to its metallurgical and design strengths. I think if it was going to give up in some way it would have done so already. If it were mine, I’d not slow down with it any.

[Dom]

I see absolutely no reason why your Blackhawk 44 isn't just as strong now as when made. Only way I could see a reduction in strength would be if it went thru a fire. My pre 64 Winchesters model 70's are as good as ever. Shoot with confidence. If you still are skeptical , contact Ruger.

[Dave Dill]

Awesome, thanks everyone.

I don’t think I was skeptical as much as I’m just another victim of a “throw away” generation and time. Anything, let alone high pressure eating revolvers that are closing 70 years old and as good and strong as it was in 1956 doesn’t go with the spirit of this age. But I like it :)

[contender1]

Well, I'm a serious Ruger fan,, and I'll try & shed a little more info here.

If you have a "Blackhawk" & not the Super Blackhawk,, as you've stated,, then it's on the smaller main frame design of that era. After the Super Blackhawk came out,, with a larger frame,, it kinda set the stage for more serious shooting. Then, in 1963,,, Ruger transitioned all it's Blackhawks & super Blackhawks into the larger main frame. The Flattop OM was dropped.
Some people believe that the FT frames are a bit less structurally solid than that of the later guns.

Metallurgy is a bit of a confusing thing. Metal can hold together for a while,, then suddenly have problems. Your gun has been fine for decades,, and may still be just fine. But,, metal fatigue over time can SLOWLY degenerate the integrity to a breaking point. Think of how drag racers build an engine,, and run it for a race or two,, and then rebuild it or replace it completely. And we've all seen funny cars blow their engines. Yes,, it's not a true direct comparison,, as they build these engines JUST to run once or twice, while a firearm was built to withstand long term use.
But,, ammo has changed,, as have loads. So,, it may be just fine,, or maybe a case of "maybe the next time I shoot it,, it'll blow up."

As a collector,, the OM FT's are desirable,, and even as shooters.

I tend to be a bit cautious when I look at the fine old guns. I prefer to feed a gun a diet it can easily withstand,, AND still have the gun outlive me.

To be able to give you a detailed, knowledgeable, metallurgical answer,, I can't I can only say I PERSONALLY have backed off my .44 FT's hot loads long ago,, because I wanted the gun to outlast me,, AND my grandkids.

[sixshot]

I've taken many, many deer with 21.0 grs of 2400 in my old model 44 magnum but in later years I've also taken a bunch with 10.0 grs of Unique with that same Keith bullet & have found that all of them were just as dead as those shot with the hotter load, just not quite as far away.

Dick

[smkummer]

I've taken many, many deer with 21.0 grs of 2400 in my old model 44 magnum but in later years I've also taken a bunch with 10.0 grs of Unique with that same Keith bullet & have found that all of them were just as dead as those shot with the hotter load, just not quite as far away.

Dick
Exactly. I am 61 and I don’t know how you do it shooting that plowhandle grip with that kind load. I am shooting that Kieth bullet at 950-1000 fps in my colt new frontier 44 special on steel targets and feel it would clean shoot through a deer.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm leaning more toward the opinion that it's no less strong today than when it left the factory, but what's wrong with just backing off the top loads a bit to preserve it and provide yourself with a little peace of mind? Where does a .44 Mag. load begin to be a magnum load (?) and at what point does it become abusive? Something in the middle is still a potent round, fun to shoot, and the gun remains useful. Give the old girl a break.

DG

[Nueces]

Point of order. The original flat top Blackhawk 44s were built on the large frame - I have three of them. Beefy revolvers, they are about the same age as the early Smith 44 Magnums, but, I think, hardier as are most single actions over same size swing out double actions. The Super Blackhawk was built on the same frame, but with a new design rear adjustable sight. I prefer the early XR3 grip frame to the longer Super frame.

Elmer Keith has written that Ruger brought out the original 44 on the 357 frame, but blew it up in testing. Thus the big frame came into existence.

[Larry Gibson]

Dave Dill

"will these Old Models take 21 grains of 2400 under 250!grain cast bullets for a century?"

Yes, they will and probably longer than a century.

Modern steels, of which your Ruger is made of, do not weaken or get tired with age. They weaken when loads are used that are at or exceed the "yield strength" of the steel given the design of the firearm.

The SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum cartridge is 36,000 psi. Even 66 years ago when your Ruger FT was made it was designed and made of steels to contain that w/o that psi being at or exceeding the yield strength. I have pressure tested [M43 PBL w/Contender test barrel] 21 gr of Alliant 2400 under a 253 gr RCBS 44-250-KT bullet in Winchester cases. The measured psi runs 34,800. That is under the SAAMI MAP and is well under the yield strength of your Ruger FT. If you enjoy shooting that load continue to do so w/o losing any more sleep.

[DougGuy]

As mentioned the steel doesn't get old and weak, and will last and last and last with full house 44m loads. You won't hurt that one with published loads, and loaded within published and tested load data, neither will any of your descendants in generations to come.

[Char-Gar]

There two kinds of revolvers, good ones and bad ones. If yours was a bad one, you would have known about it long before now.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I had an original 44 Mag Flat top built on the same frame as the .357 but I never tried what you would call a hot load. Wish I still had it. I have seen the same size Flat Top 44mag in gun shops missing the top half of the cylinder.

[gwpercle]

In a 66 year old flat top Blackhawk in 44 Magnum ... I would be more than happy , at my age , with 44 Special +P loads and standard 44 Special loads .
Not because of the wear and tear on the blackhawk ...
...but because of the wear and tear on ME !!!

My favorite Magnum is the 41 magnum with cast boolit loads and truth be told ...
the 38 Special gets the most range time !
Gary

[sixshot]

When I used the hotter load of 21.0 grs of 2400 I had a nice set of Herrett's stocks that fit my hand much better than the small factory stocks that come on the Ruger six guns. Also there are 2 different kinds of 2400, the older Hercules that is a tick slower than the newer Alliant 2400. I still have several lbs of the old Hercules 2400. Brian Pearce had an article a few years back where he tested the 2 powders side by side & there was a slight difference in burning rate with Alliant being a little faster burning.
If you have seen a Ruger single action with a blown top strap, and we all have, then you've seen a gun that's been loaded beyond a proof load, most likely with a double charge of a fast burning powder, Unique comes to mind.
Several years back a friend stopped by the house with what used to be a very nice Ruger 44 magnum that his neighbor was going to take to Africa as a second gun. The top strap was blown/bulged as they are designed to do & the top 3 chambers were blown, as they usually do.
There were 3 different people involved in the blow up, the shooter, the owner & the guy that loaded the ammo! None wanted to take credit for the ruined gun & wanted me to explain what happened, yikes! I said.....double charge!! I didn't really know & still don't because there were a lot of excuses being floated around right then! I do know that the shooter was sitting at bench #1 at our shooting range & a piece of that cylinder went through the metal wall past bench #6!!!!!!!!!!!
The gun was sent back to Ruger & the return letter stated " The gun had been fired with a load beyond the design limits of the gun" They did offer to replace it for a very reasonable amount, don't remember. The gun had been to a revolver smith & had a lot of custom work done to it, all ruined!
https://i.imgur.com/wU1wGLkh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ry8sErbh.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/ko95tgAh.jpg
Dick

[Dave Dill]

Wow... I would put on sack cloth and throw ashes over my head if that ever happened to my Flattop.... major OOOOF..

Thanks again for everyone's wisdom. I do often shoot 44 Special "Skeeter Loads" in the Blackhawk with my casted H&G 503's, but I like setting up steel out at my spot between 200-400 yards too and play against my friends "Ruger Blackhawk vs AR 15s". That's when full house loads of H110 and 2400 come in "hot".

And yes, it is an old Old Model Flattop 44 :) I "reconverted" it too a year or so ago. 4-clicks, load one skip one; it's the real deal. 300072

[HWooldridge]

Forty years ago, I bought an early Super Blackhawk and picked up a M29 a couple years later. I settled on a SAECO 250 Keith design early on, in front of 15.0 gr Blue Dot - which became my standard load for both revolvers. Friend of mine bought the Ruger off me but I still have the Smith, and use the same load. I never ran it over a chronograph but it thumps my hand pretty good.

[Jtarm]

I've taken many, many deer with 21.0 grs of 2400 in my old model 44 magnum but in later years I've also taken a bunch with 10.0 grs of Unique with that same Keith bullet & have found that all of them were just as dead as those shot with the hotter load, just not quite as far away.

Dick

^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^

I dropped down to 18.5 2400 and found the deer dropped just as fast and I enjoyed shooting a lot more.

[contender1]

"Point of order. The original flat top Blackhawk 44s were built on the large frame - I have three of them. Beefy revolvers, they are about the same age as the early Smith 44 Magnums, but, I think, hardier as are most single actions over same size swing out double actions. The Super Blackhawk was built on the same frame, but with a new design rear adjustable sight. I prefer the early XR3 grip frame to the longer Super frame.

Elmer Keith has written that Ruger brought out the original 44 on the 357 frame, but blew it up in testing. Thus the big frame came into existence. "

I apologize for my errors. I was thinking about the early test guns & such,, and typed before really thinking things through. I made a mistake & Neuses is correct. The only frame dimensions that changed from the FT 44's to the Super Blackhawks was the rear sight area,, which the Super got the protected ears.

I should have slowed down & thought before I typed my earlier response.

Like the picture sixshot has shared,, I have a .44 blown up frame. I use it as a teaching tool. (No,, I didn't blow it up,,, I purchased the scrap frame as a tool)

That said,, no matter how good it's built,, metal can get stressed if worked harder than it's designed. And while I own a few FT 44's as well as a few OM 44 Supers,, I generally use medium to milder loads in all of them.
Why?
I've found the sweet spot for accuracy for each gun, and use that as my guide. I tend to shy away from "loudenkickinboomer" max loads. As I mentioned in my earlier post,, I want the guns to outlast me & my grandkids. I experiment with different loads & such to find accurate loads. Accuracy trumps everything else. And if I find a hotter load to be the most accurate,, I study it,, and try & find a different powder & bullet combo that produces the same (or better) accuracy without going to to tier loads.

[Char-Gar]

I have owned and shot one 44 Magnum revolver or another (DA and SA) since about 1964. I have two right now, a 5" Smith 629 and an OM Ruger SBH. I like the round allot feeling it be superior, at least for my uses, to any other big bore revolver.

In all these years, I have not shot more than 200 full house loads though the lot of them. I use loads in the 850-950 fps range. I get easy shooting loads that will kill anything I need to kill, give long revolver life and is easy on my hand and wrist to boot.

[sixshot]

Char-Gar, I was 2 years behind you in 1966 in Sherman, Texas. But my first one was a 4" model 57 S&W, the 44 magnum came a few months later. Being a young guy in the military I had to shoot everything hot, at least at first, it took me a few years to realize those big bullets didn't have to outrun the jets I was working on to get the job done.

Dick

[Thumbcocker]

I used to load .44 magnum around 900-1000 fps but when Ruger made the new flat top. 44 specials I found midpower nirvana.

Now it is a simple rule magnum guns get magnum loads; special guns get special loads. Thumbcocker gets more guns. I love the symmetry if it.

[rintinglen]

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

I got my first 44 in 79 or 80, and immediately set to producing the hottest loads that Lyman recommended. And immediately, I learned that those things KICK. But I was young and sturdy, and I shot up several hundred Speer and Sierra 240 grain JSP's, before I got a mold and started casting 44-250 KT boolits. At the same time, I dropped the load to Keith's recommended level, and it was a little better, but leaded. Skeeter Skelton came to my rescue. In one of his articles, he recommended 8.5 grains of Unique with the 429-421 in magnum brass. That has been my primary load ever since. I have shot at least 10 of those for every full bore magnum load and now that I am creeping--my wife says galloping-into my dotage. I applaud those who are wiser than I was whose wrists are not aching every time they wake up.

[Char-Gar]

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

I got my first 44 in 79 or 80, and immediately set to producing the hottest loads that Lyman recommended. And immediately, I learned that those things KICK. But I was young and sturdy, and I shot up several hundred Speer and Sierra 240 grain JSP's, before I got a mold and started casting 44-250 KT boolits. At the same time, I dropped the load to Keith's recommended level, and it was a little better, but leaded. Skeeter Skelton came to my rescue. In one of his articles, he recommended 8.5 grains of Unique with the 429-421 in magnum brass. That has been my primary load ever since. I have shot at least 10 of those for every full bore magnum load and now that I am creeping--my wife says galloping-into my dotage. I applaud those who are wiser than I was whose wrists are not aching every time they wake up.

I have seen John Taffin's X-Rays of his hands and wrists. That will make a believer out you. He will also warn younger shooters away from shooting the big boomers for kicks and giggles. However people seldom listen and learn. By the time, they learn for themselves, the damage is done. I also know quite a few runners, who now have had to replace both knees and both hips. The human body does have it's design limitations. Adrenaline can be a dangerous drug, just like the kind you snort or shoot into the veins.

[murf205]

sixshot is right about the critters being just as dead and I liked 'em hot myself up until the time "Authur" found is way into my hands and wrist. Will your Ruger stand the pressure? Sure, enjoy the ride while you are able to handle it. Here is what I like about loading 44's down a bit. These are from my 4" 629 that I opened the cylinder throats to .431 form a tight .429. It is just as accurate with a 310 ge Lee GC boolit and 20.5 grs of H110 for 1230 fps--but it hurts.300136300137300138

[yeahbub]

Thank you, Larry, for your clarification of the issue and having run the load in your test equipment. I commonly run that 21gr of 2400 under the lyman 429215 (220gr lubed w/GC cast of 1:1 WW:lead from my mold) and many deer have been taken over the years with that load. These days I have switched to faster powders and backed off to 1000 - 1200fps with that boolit, not for the sake of the revolver strength, rather because my hands have taken a dislike to the pounding. Even with the reduction, I never successfully recovered one from a deer - they all went through. Still, though, the occasional cylinder-full of "heavy duty" brings smiles of remembrance.

I remember the old box of REM-UMC factory 240gr lead SWC that I got with it when I bought the Ruger SBH. Fierce! I was at an indoor range in OKC on my first outing and wasn't prepared for the dropped ceiling tiles to jump around so much when I cracked off a round. Neither were the other shooters who were looking on in wonderment approaching my own. Those things spanked my hands to the point where I had to take a break between shots for the tingling to go away and that square-backed trigger guard wasn't helping either. The fellow I bought it from told me it was the only box of ammo he'd bought and I remember wondering why only eight rounds had been fired. Mystery solved - he couldn't stand it either. Probably why I got such a good price on it. Handloads fixed all that.

[Larry Gibson]

yeahbub

Back in '70 when I got a Hawes Western marshal 44 magnum I got 2 boxes of ammo with it, a box of those same Rem-UMC 240 gr and a box of Norma 240 Jacketed 44 magnums. Wow, is about all I can say too. Didn't have a chronograph then but I loaded those 100 cases shortly with Keith's 22 gr 2400 under a Lyman 250 gr 429421. Keith's load seemed very mild mannered and comfortable......

[murf205]

Those factory loads were advertised at 1500+ fps and for once, I believe the factory was not fuging on the numbers. I still have a box of Super Vel 240 gr in my ammo collection and THAT'S where they are going to stay.

[yeahbub]

I remember being grateful that the SBH is amply strong and I had confidence that delicacy was not an issue. That REM-UMC ammo must have made a lasting impression to be so well-remembered after so many years. Had I not had handloading experience and believed the .44 Mag was always going to be like this, I too might have thought "Gun for sale." If some were still available, it would be interesting to do a pressure and velocity test to see what pressures they actually develop. I had read that early magnum loadings didn't "spare the ponies" and were run flat out, some developing pressures north of 40kpsi.