empty underground oil tank

[porthos]

my neighbor emptied his underground fuel oil tank and is switching to gas heat. is there something that can be used to fill the tank, to keep it from collapsing at some time??

[00buck]

Sand

[MUSTANG]

Given the massive amounts of regulation in our society; be prepared somewhere along the way to be FORCED to dig it up and dispose of as Hazardous Waste. If you sell the house or...... it is probable that the Realtor will tend a form on it requiring disclosure; or a "Discovery" process in House Inspection/Turnover will result in same.

[rancher1913]

tell him to fill it back up with oil, he will regret using gas down the road.

[tinsnips]

Sand an why would he regret using gas?

[BrassMagnet]

Sand an why would he regret using gas?

Ever increasing prices!

[square butte]

As of last Friday - Fuel oil $6.59/gallon in Springfield VT

[bangerjim]

I did that in MI years ago. Sand did the trick.

[la5676]

If PA is like Oklahoma, any unused or unregistered UST will have to come out. We just paid $13,000 to remove two 4,000 diesel tanks Dad had buried on the farm around 1980. He quit using them, also told Oklahoma Corporation Commission to FOAD. He had the opportunity to have them removed with Superfund money, but thought he might use them again sometime. He was always trying to be a prepper, and be ready for gas price hikes. He’d put 500 to 1000 gallons of gasoline in one, then leave it there for years. It went bad. When he passed, we paid $13,000 to have state approved people ( read, paid off people) jerk them out. We never told dad that we had convinced the OCC to wait until his ailments killed him. He always thought he beat them at their game.

This was all over hydrocarbon leaching into groundwater. We could prove no usable groundwater for miles, but OCC didn’t care. It’s policy they say.

[la5676]

Ever increasing prices!

Natural gas will ALWAYS be cheaper to heat than with fuel oil. And immensely more convenient.

[rancher1913]

Sand an why would he regret using gas?

gas can be turned off, at least fuel oil you have until it is empty to get things in order. never ever rely on piped in services if you dont want to be sol a lot.

[Alstep]

I switched to coal about 15 years ago, best thing I ever did. Price has been pretty stable all that time. Last 5 ton load I got went up a little to cover trucking. I live in SE NYS, so the coal mines of PA are not too far away.

Before that I heated with oil and had a 1000 gallon tank. Had a guy do some excavating for me, and while the machine was here, had him dig up the tank. After 38 years in the ground, it still was in good shape, but you never know when a pin hole leak might happen. Now I have piece of mind knowing that's not going to happen any more. I've heard of horror stories over leaking tanks, and when the DEC gets involved, it gets awful expensive!

[samari46]

Brothers father in law owned a gas station. Had 4 tanks of which he used 2. Very small station. When they inspected the station they told him either remove the tanks not in use or fill them with sand. While sand would have been cheaper he opted to have them removed. Proved to be a wise decision. The next gas station had leaking gas tanks. And they had to pay to have them pumped out, dug up and replace the hydrocarbon contaminated soil. Very expensive, since it was a name brand station the parent company had to foot the bill. We had one here in town that had leakers. Dug them up,replace the contaminated soil and had to put in fiberglass tanks. Frank

[imashooter2]

gas can be turned off, at least fuel oil you have until it is empty to get things in order. never ever rely on piped in services if you dont want to be sol a lot.

Well, it’s only been 48 years, but I’m still waiting for the first time here. City water and gas. Maybe a lot means something different in Colorado.

[Shawlerbrook]

Here in NYS ( no surprise to anyone) underground oil tanks are a pita. Best thing to do is remove fill pipes and forget it was ever there and pray. Soil testing and then thousands of dollars of remediation.

[bedbugbilly]

We had several smaller tanks pulled and it was a PIA. Soil samples had to be collected, sent in for testing, etc. for EPA.

If he knows someone with a backhoe who will keep mum on it - if it were mine I'd pull it and dispose of it. If the property is ever sold - even years later - the tank will have to be disclosed in the sale. If it isn't, it can come back to bite the seller or Executor/Trustee if an Estate and cost more in a lawsuit than if it was just removed and done with.

Sometimes it is better to jus shoot, shovel and shut-up if you get my drift.

[owejia]

Rented a farm from my neighbor that had two, 1000 gal. underground tanks, used for gasoline, that were at two separate farmsteads. Both were unused for several years and had rusted through. Pumped the water out of one and had a neighbor dig it out with his backhoe. The second one started to cave in and had the same neighbor dig it out. Smashed them down to fit on a trailer and hauled them to the scrap yard. Backfilled the holes. End of story.

[Land Owner]

Superfund created the "legacy" owner's nightmare through the
Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation and Liability Act (CERCLA)...enacted in 1980...gave the federal government the ability to respond to releases or threatened releases of hazardous substances, and to pursue polluters ("responsible parties") or potential polluters ("potentially responsible parties") for the cleanup of contaminated sites.Every record owner of a piece of property became responsible for its cleanup, solely and collectively, everybody goes to the courthouse. This includes every FUTURE owner. "Due Diligence" is required when purchasing property, particularly Commercial property. The EPA forced creation of the Environmental Site Assessment market.

[MrWolf]

We removed an oil tank (NJ) and had to have it inspected for leaks before we were supposed to cut I up and remove (I kinda cut it before the inspector got there and blamed him for telling me to do it - got away with it - wink nod). They cut real easy with a Sawzall. If your neighbor is sure it does not leak and he will use it in the future, then leave it empty. Otherwise I would pull it before anyone can question it.

[Bmi48219]

If the OP’s neighbor doesn’t plan to use the tank it would be best to remove it now. A steel tank sooner or later will develop a leak. Then, even a few gallons of residual fuel oil can contaminate a lot of soil. The EPA requires that contaminated soil be removed and placed in an expensive, certified, hazardous landfill or decontaminated by another approved method.
If he can dig it up on the QT and scrap it, all the better. If not, he may as well bite the bullet now and have it legally removed. The EPA sure isn’t going to make the procedure any easier or less expensive in the future, it will only get worse.

[45DUDE]

It cost my dad $5000 to have one removed in the 80's. It had rusted and full of water.

[Char-Gar]

I have know large empty underground tanks to float to the surface when the soil get water saturated.

[Bmi48219]

We purchased a 25 year old rural home that was heated with fuel oil and had a 250 gallon underground tank. Back then I could fill it in June for 75 cents a gallon but we used around 650 gallons each heating season. Filling it up in the winter was always more than double the price.
Replaced the furnace when the heat exchanger started leaking and I was gifted a recent 1,000 gallon in ground tank. After pressure testing it, sand blasting and re-coating, I dug up the old tank and installed the replacement. Because of the larger diameter of the new tank I couldn’t get it buried deep enough to get 4 feet of fill over it. That doesn’t help with controlling the condensation that is a fact of life with underground storage.
I kept the oil supply pickup nozzle 3.5 inches above the tank bottom and added a second longer pickup line in the tank so I could pump out any water that settled to the bottom. Periodically I’d check for water and pump it out if any showed on the stick. Even pumping slowly some oil would come up too. I found if it set for a day the water would settle to the bottom of my bucket and I could siphon it off.
Just for the heck of it I pressure tested the old tank. It held pressure but at six pounds it started to bulge in spots. Wouldn’t have lasted much longer. I had to crush the old tank and take it to a scrap yard in a mixed load to get rid of it.
The price of oil kept going up over the years but we still used the same amount annually and save enough money by filling the tank when fuel prices were down to cut our annual heating cost over 60%.

[Bmi48219]

I have know large empty underground tanks to float to the surface when the soil get water saturated.

Empty in ground pools can do the same.

[beezapilot]

Yep, been down that road before. If you have a buddy with a backhoe and can get away with it, get the tank out of the ground, back fill, cut it up, bring it to the scrap yard (see if they have any lead while you are there) don't get anyone with any form of government associations involved...if you can get away with it.... if it is in the ground, it will haunt you.

[Martin Luber]

Keep an eye on inhouse tanks too, the front may look ok but the backside against the wall may be rusted out. I got my 62 yo tank out just in time, the back looked like a scaley tin can fron an outdoor dump.

You, the homeowner, can dig up, remove, and scrap out fuel tanks but it's a nightmare for a business where they need licenses and certifications ...read very expensive ang heavily regulated.

[Wayne Smith]

As others have said it is way less expensive to remove it now than waiting until it leaks - you cannot get all the oil out - and have to remediate the soil. LOML's profession was to identify the source of oil leaks and make sure they were remediated. Once they leak you are looking at mega bucks. Oil will run down the underground gradient and come out somewhere, if there is enough of it.

LOML worked for the Virginia Department of Environmental Quality - but part of her salary was paid by the EPA's LUST program - yes the Federal Government has a LUST program, and she used to go to regional LUST conferences. LUST = Leaking Underground Storage Tanks - whoever named that program back in the early '70's had a great sense of humor.

[MrWolf]

An additional comment: A house we looked at before moving down to Southern Jersey had an in ground oil tank. House was to small for us anyway but the tank was an immediate turn off. About 5-6 years later, we were looking at investment property to flip. That house had finally come back on the market after all those years as they had an oil leak that was discovered during the home inspection. It took that long for remediation and the book with all the info was almost three inches thick. Ended up buying that house. 1,000 year flood took a lot of my profits but that is a other story. Remediation can be a nightmare if authorities find a leak.

[porthos]

how do you fill undrground tank with sand thru the small (2 in.) fill up hole?

[Kimber1911]

Yeah, its really not that big a deal, any excavation contractor can yank it out, ours used to cut a big hole in it and start a fire in it to burn any leftover oil, then scrap it.

[farmbif]

hope you dont live in a place were you call the govt to ask about it and people in white suits with gloves and gas masks show up you might have to get a second mortgage to pay to get things straightened out.
if possible and if you dont have nosey neighbors that have love interest with the EPA policies you might go to equipment rental place and get an excavator and dump truck for a long holiday weekend and pull that thing out of the ground, fill in the hole and put some sod on top.
I used to live in a place where at one time I would have to appear at city hall and pay fines if I had a pickup truck parked in the driveway or the grass was too tall or for any number of stupid reasons if a nosey neighbor called.

[cwtebay]

What has been eluded to by other posters - contact the county sanitation for advice. It may cost a bit, but you won't regret it.
I purchased an old Ford dealership that was deemed "clean" of underground storage tanks (in writing in the contract). I discovered 2 tanks that had been filled with sand, the DEQ elected to allow me to hire a contractor to remove them - and surrounding "contaminated" soil. It cost $73,000 +/- for the previous owners to pay.

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[Winger Ed.]

I'd dig it out, and remove it.
That will eliminate any future problems.

[imashooter2]

how do you fill undrground tank with sand thru the small (2 in.) fill up hole?

A shovelful at a time.

[Wayne Smith]

how do you fill undrground tank with sand thru the small (2 in.) fill up hole?

You would have to blow it in to truly fill the tank.

[.429&H110]

I worked for a place that had six 12k single wall 20 year old fuel oil tanks. Every year a man would come and leak check them, one year one leaked. When the tanks were new, they had tank insurance against this day.

The inside of an oil tank is coated with stinking black oatmealy sludge. My tank cleaning machine would scrape the loose stuff and pump the sump, the steel is still slimy black. Going to need a new double wall tank, transfer the oil, pump the old tank dry, call the optimistic contractor. His bid was optimistic, and he made it.

He cleaned off the dirt to expose the top half of the tank, mashed 100 pounds of dry ice to fit through the four inch hole. Next day, the optimist cut the top off with an abrasive wheel, made a long strip of steel 4'x16', dumped a half ton of sawdust into the tank. Squeegeed the black oatmeal into the sawdust. Wet a line of sawdust and torch the ends off the tank, burn the tank into eight foot pieces. I would not have thought of sawdust. The wet sawdust kept the steel cool, soaked up the slime. Tank made a neat pile on the flatbed, sawdusty scrap steel.

The old tank was on clay, was maybe 2 yards of contaminated muck, State sniffed clean so bury it.
Then we dug up five more. It's an easier permit if it isn't leaking.

[shooterg]

Isn't some research ongoing into oil eating bacteria ?
And there was a govt. program that paid for old tanks (household) to be dug up and replaced I saw advertised somewhere - unless it was a dream !

[MUSTANG]

Isn't some research ongoing into oil eating bacteria ?
And there was a govt. program that paid for old tanks (household) to be dug up and replaced I saw advertised somewhere - unless it was a dream !

There was a science fiction 1 hour or so movie about Oil Eating "bugs" back in the late 1970's if I remember correctly. Basis was that they succeeded in lab creating an oil eating bug to clean up oil spills. The bug "Got Loose" (Reminds me of an asian country) and spread until all the oil industry globally was destroyed and vehicles stopped moving. The Protagonist in the movie drove a horse pulled wagon around the country "Selling Peanut Oil" that was immune to the "Bug".

[Wayne Smith]

Yes, oil eating bacteria exist naturally. The trick has been to 'breed' enough of them to be effective. They are being used, I'm not sure of effectiveness. They will work much better in a liquid environment than in a solid one.

[WRideout]

I have 20+ years experience as an environmental scientist, and a degree in microbiology. In almost every case, secure landfill disposal is the cheapest way to go. However, it is true that some bacteria eat oil, or petroleum-based substances. Pseudomonas will grow on any kind of plastic or organic material that stays wet. The problem with treatment by biological methods is that you have to create a good environment for the bacteria to grow. Also, bacteria grow best in an aerobic environment; even those that can exist without air. Trying to treat oil-contaminated soil in the ground could possibly be done, but might require years of treatment and groundwater monitoring during that time.

Wayne

[JSnover]

There are oil eating microbes, we use them in a solvent tank where I work. I don't know if they're practical for something as large as an underground tank.

[.429&H110]

Sawdust soaks up sludge, chicken poop supplies every microbe on earth.
Soon it's dirt.
There's going to be background mercury in it, so I made sod.
The solution to pollution is dilution. So we said in the good old days.

[ascast]

Natural gas will ALWAYS be cheaper to heat than with fuel oil. And immensely more convenient.

not if you dont have natural gas at your house. pipelines are pricy