Erratic ignition with 296 in .44 magnum

[Thumbcocker]

I have shot H110/296 for decades in .44 magnum. Recently I got a mold for a 300 grain boolit that looked like a dandy. It is unique in that it has about the same amount of boolit in the case as a Keith.

I worked up to a load 1/2 to 1 grain above the manuals but less than what many reccomend for a 300 grain boolit. I got inconsistent ignition. Including 2 stuck boolits. There was no boolit movement under recoil and the charge is what it was set at.

I may not be crimping hard enough. Attached are pics of the boolit along with Keith, Ranch Dog, and a Lee 310. They are lined up by crimp groove. Also a pic of a loaded round is attached.

Input welcome. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220506/2dd506255619ed967f8a8b1e16280667.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220506/a4ed682028c1b373bd4442a46827d1ca.jpg

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[Cosmic_Charlie]

Bad primers?

[Outpost75]

What powder charge are you using and what was your source of data? 296 does not tolerate free airspace in the case at loading density less than about 85% of the available case capacity. Charges should not be reduced below published data. You also want to use a primer designed for spherical powders, such as Winchester Large Pistol. Heavy crimp is also needed to prevent inertial dislodgement under recoil and to hold bullet firmly against primer blast during initial ignition.

[Thumbcocker]

Powder charge is 20.0 grains. Manuals listed 19 or 19.5 for 300 grain boolits. Primers are Wolf. Use same primers with other boolits and 296 with very consistent chronograph velocity.

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[DougGuy]

My modded Lee collet crimp really helped my full house loads, brought the ES down to under 20, and groups showed the change. Lee C430-310RF. WLP primers. 17.0gr 2400, velocity from 1180 to 1200fps.

Modded collet crimp on left, hard roll crimp on the right.

299921

Crimped rounds compared to fired cases with the same crimp as the first pic:

299922

Here is a thread documenting the mods to the collet crimp die: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

[littlejack]

Sounds like you have quite a bit of expierience with the H-110/296 powders. Don't know what handgun you're shooting the loads in. Maybe bump up the charge .5 grain at a time, and see what happens. I wouldn't go so far as to compress the powder much though. I'm using the 296 in my heavy .41 magnum loads. My Ranch Dog 411-255 gc, sets just on top of a 20 grain powder charge. Fired cases slide out easily. I do get some soot on the cases though. Im shooting my loads in a Ruger SBH Hunter. I may try bumping it up just a little. No problems so far though. All the best in your endevor. Keep us updated.

[Outpost75]

Am not familiar with the chemistry of primer mix used by Wolf. Winchester uses powdered aluminum as metallic fuel to aid ignition by scattering hot incandescent particles through charge, without having to increase explosive force. More efficient mechanism.

[Thumbcocker]

Same gun with Ranch Dog boolit. 22 of 296.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220506/6cb7810bcf31035fb83cc649878db202.jpg

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[HWooldridge]

I have also shot a lot of 296 in 44 mag - it likes a heavy crimp and LP magnum primers. Only thing I don’t like about 296 is that massive muzzle flash - looks like a 5” naval gun firing on a moonless night…

[44MAG#1]

I will relate an experiment I did in the 44 Mag with Hornady 300 grain XTP seated normal using 19.5 grain W296, WLP Remington cases in a SBH. Also with the bullets seated long at 22.5 grains of the same powder.
Chronoed the two loads back to back. All lots of components the same. I forget the velocities but the 22.5 grain load had the same velocity as the 19.5 grain load within 5 or 6 fps. This means something Im sure.

[nannyhammer]

Most likely the Wolf primers aren't hot enough. Always used magnum primers with 296 and never had any issues.

[megasupermagnum]

Your Wolf primers are not adequate for the job. It's as simple as that. Your load, bullet, and crimp are fine.

[NSB]

I’ve shot many, many pounds of 296 over the years. I don’t even crimp much in my single shot rifles with it and it ALWAYS goes off. I use only LP magnum primers with it. I say you have a primer problem.

[kingrj]

I have never had any problems with heavy bullet WW296 loads in either the .44 mag or .45 Colt....but then again I have never used Wolf primers either...

[Sasquatch-1]

Just speculation but are you sure you are getting all cleaning media out of the flash hole.

[44MAG#1]

Just saying in my above post could it be lower load density because of the seating depth being less than the bullet the data was worked up with in the book
Is that a possibility at all. I have used standard primers with that powder with good results as long as the load density was good.
Oh well.

[Thumbcocker]

Just saying in my above post could it be lower load density because of the seating depth being less than the bullet the data was worked up with in the book
Is that a possibility at all. I have used standard primers with that powder with good results as long as the load density was good.
Oh well.That is what I am thinking.

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[bosterr]

I suspect the problem is the Wolf primers. About ten years ago I got a good deal on 5000 Wolf large pistol magnum primers. One winter when the temp was in the 30's I was getting squibs in my 12 inch .44 Contender using the Wolf primers and a near max load of WC820 powder. This is extremely fine ball powder, I'd say even more fine than H110/296. Sometimes the bullet would stick in the bore just clear of the case and some would send the boolits more forward with a solid powder plug lodged behind it. The problem went away when I switched back to CCI magnum primers. I used up the Wolf primers in my 1911 .45's and 231 powder.

[414gates]

Please describe what you are calling inconsistent ignition.

[Thumbcocker]

Unburned powder, boolit stuck in bore with unburned powder in a colum behind it, noticeable variations in report and recoil. Only with this boolit.

[44MAG#1]

Unburned powder, boolit stuck in bore with unburned powder in a colum behind it, noticeable variations in report and recoil. Only with this boolit.

That tells me too much space in the case.

[Messy bear]

Need more powder. Your 265 is longer and you are using more powder. Try going up as 296 doesn’t like to rattle around a lot. Primers are likely weak as compared to some. A cci 350 is hottest of all pistol primers. Even rivals some rifle primers. But it should even out just going up

[414gates]

Unburned powder, boolit stuck in bore with unburned powder in a colum behind it, noticeable variations in report and recoil. Only with this boolit.

This is an ignition problem, which can be

1. a blocked flash hole
2. an unsuitable primer

If you're sure the flash holes are not the issue, use a hotter primer.

[Thumbcocker]

No source of hotter primers just now.

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[shooting on a shoestring]

A kicker charge of Bullseye could help you out and let you stay with your Wolf primers.
Bullseye is my favorite for kicking slow ball powders in large revolver cases. It works well bc it has a high nitroglycerin content and burns hotter than other fast powders. It’s a gem at getting you a fast bump in temperature and also pressure. Both of which you need for ignition.

I’d start at a half grain and work up a couple of tenths at a time. Ill bet your ignition smooths out somewhere before 1.5 grains.

[Thumbcocker]

I'm going to give the Lee 310 a try

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[knifemaker]

Magnum primers are recommended for 296 powder. Standard primers may cause poor ignition of the powder.

[Thumbcocker]

Magnum primers are recommended for 296 powder. Standard primers may cause poor ignition of the powder.Haven't until I tried the one boolit.

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[44MAG#1]

Magnum primers are recommended for 296 powder. Standard primers may cause poor ignition of the powder.

I have used Standard Primers with both W296 and H110. But the loading density was near full power load. If It were me I would increase the load some. With the Hornady 300 XTP LOADED LONG 22.5 grains W296/H110 isn't to much with a WLP primer. And it got withing 5 or 6 fos the same velocity and the same bullet LOADED SHORT with 19.5 with all other component the same and chronoed back to back.
Go forth and experiment to get a satisfying answer. A Chrono is handy.

[NSB]

Haven't until I tried the one boolit.

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And that’s why they recommended them…..just for that reason.

[1006]

If it is a bullet size issue, why can’t it be seated deeper, or put some cornmeal filler on top of the powder to compress the powder?

[Sasquatch-1]

Try a filler to keep the powder against the flash hole. I have loaded as low as 19 grns. of 296 (W/O a filler) and using CCI standard primers with a 240 grain bullet and never had a problem.

I have heard that the Wolf primers have the hardest cup on the market. Just hearsay. I don't know if that would be the cause or not.

[Larry Gibson]

No source of hotter primers just now.

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If that's the conundrum I wouldn't waste any further primers, 296 or the bullets trying to make it work. It's very apparent you have an ignition problem simply because the primers you have aren't capable with 296. I'd shift to a powder more suitable to the primers you have [2400, 4227 readily come to mind]. May not get the performance 296 would give but you'll be shooting instead of being frustrated. Just saying what I would do.

[414gates]

If it is a bullet size issue...

Bullet size has nothing to do with powder ignition.

Even if you had no bullet, just a wad to hold the powder, powder should burn.

[Thumbcocker]

Loaded Lee 310 in bottom crimp groove over 21 of 296. Good results. Added bonus is that the gun reminds me, through the trigger guard and my middle finger, to use a proper grip.

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[Tripplebeards]

I had a couple of stuck cases with a seized bolt handle in my 77/44 using a max load of W296 a few years ago. When I got home I tested my digital RCBS scale I bought new in 2000’ it was jumping the weight up and down like a Yo Yo. Ordered a charge master lite and have had no stuck casings after that. My group with that load opened up with the new scale. What ever mystery charge I had in it shot great till I couldn’t lift my bolt handle.

I had inconsistent ignition also. My guess is it was from not cleaning out the hole on my shell holder. I found a greasy build up in it. My guess is it was from my done away practice of spraying WD-40 on my cases before FL sizing. I’m guessing it left residue in the shell holder and when I seated primers it soaked into them. I had a few fail to fires with primers not igniting.

[ShooterAZ]

I use 21.5 grains of W296 with the 44 Cal Lee 310 in my Super Blackhawk. I use Federal F150 (non-magnum) primers and put a really good crimp on them. I have never had any ignition problems, and the load is quite accurate and powerful. And yeah, you need to have a good grip on your gun with it! It will get your attention for sure, and I would not recommend this load for S&W model 29's.

[1006]

Bullet size has nothing to do with powder ignition.

Even if you had no bullet, just a wad to hold the powder, powder should burn.

Sorry, I was speaking of size in reference to its length (seating depth), not diameter.

[Rick B]

Use a Winchester Large Pistol Primer. Your issue will go away. About 15 years ago I bought a case of Wolf Large Rifle Primers. Had the same issue in 308, 30-06 case capacity sized cartridges. Using medium to slow rifle powders. Never stuck a bullet. A large number of hang fires and different sounding reports though. Relegated those to cast loads with fast burning pistol powders. Their Small Rifle Magnum primers produce the smallest groups I ever shot in a 223. Go figure.
Rick

[Castaway]

Had similar problem in my 45 Colt Blackhawk. Magnum primer fixed it

[DougGuy]

I tested my digital RCBS scale I bought new in 2000’ it was jumping the weight up and down like a Yo Yo.

If your AC or heat was running, open window or a fan causing a draft OR you breathing on the scale? It will do exactly what you describe.

[derek45]

w296 / H110 need a FIRM ROLL CRIMP and Magnum primers

…or like Larry stated,….get some good old 2400

[Tripplebeards]

If your AC or heat was running, open window or a fan causing a draft OR you breathing on the scale? It will do exactly what you describe.


It use to do that until the heat shut off. What a pain. It did it in still and calm room with no heat or air running when I came back the day my bolt seized. That charger was jumping up and down a 30 plus grains difference flashing nonstop…not the normal up and down by 2/10ths of a grain. I had 21 grains of powder in it ( that I verified from another scale)and it went from 47 to 12 grains and every number up and down in between non stop like a digital slot machine. RCBS told it me it was defective. I use to wipe it down with dryer sheets. As well. All the little tricks to milk it out through the years. I remember having to turn the AC or heater off when metering. If a truck drove down the street it jumped up and down. I got rid of that scale and don’t miss it. The charge lite is spot on on doesn’t fluctuate at all. Modern technology at its finest. Wish I had thst scale 20 years ago. Use to take an hour to meter 20 rounds with the old scale. It takes about 3 to 5 seconds per round now and more accurate IMO.

[RJM52]

Just saying in my above post could it be lower load density because of the seating depth being less than the bullet the data was worked up with in the book
Is that a possibility at all. I have used standard primers with that powder with good results as long as the load density was good.
Oh well.

When I read your bullet description that was my first thought. I try and load H110/296 to 100% density. Not compressed, just so the bullet base is sitting on top of the powder so there is no air space.

I use a dowel that is almost the inside diameter of the case and the put a mark on the dowel at the height of the crimp groove. Then I fill the case with powder (only 296/H110) so that when the dowel is put in the case the mark for the crimp groove is at the case mouth. Then measure that to know what 100% is.. Then back off 10% and slowly work up... I also CrimpTheCr@@ out of the loads... I also use Winchester LP primers for all H110/296 loads when possible...

[Tripplebeards]

Still thinking about your issue…

I also had about a 400 fps variance in my Ruger 77/44 and Lyman devastators using trail boss, H110, and W296. It was my firearm I ever started loading cast for. With the help here from some members…and especially Doug’s helpful old posts…I bought a lee collet factory crimp die for the 44 mag. It gave me a firm, even, crimp. My velocity variance dropped down from a 400 fps spread to under 20 fps and my accuracy went from pie plate groups at 100 yards to sub MOA. The lee FCCD crimp reminds me of an even lip loc bag seal vs a factory roll crimp.

Here are examples of my crimp with the lee collect factory crimp die. I didn’t modify my die like Doug did. Just kept lowering it till I had a nice even crimp that folded down over my lube groove. I haven’t shot this load or rifle for years but took it out last fall before season to see if my scope was still on. First shot I missed dead center at 100 yards by a few tenths if an inch. I then tried about a 5/6” gong at 200 yards. I hit it three for three times in a row! I put it away and called it good. Never did take out in the woods. That crimp style turned my gun into a tack driver. With a roll crimp from my RCBS factory die with the exact same load I had inconsistent 4” to 6” plus groups at 100 yards.

https://i.imgur.com/efJJnQe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QpXlm8S.jpg

I use the lee CFC die on ALL my cast boolit loads accept for Colt 45 and straight wall auto pistols.

Here is a less aggressive crimp using a lee collet factory crimp die on my 35 Rem loads.

https://i.imgur.com/YlFwUe5.jpg


I use these loads to shoot the group in my avatar. A good consistent crimp is the KEY to accuracy and consistent pressures with cast boolit I have found out. I went from horrible, giant groups to consistent velocities and sub MOA,tight groups with the exact same loads just with changing my crimp style. If I wouldn’t have picked up the lee factory crimp collet die I would have quit using cast boolits along time ago. That crimp style makes my cast boolit loads shoot tighter groups than jacketed ammo in the same guns. IMO every cast boolit reloaded should keep a Lee FCCD die in hand. I have other groups posted in my photos on my home page for reference.

I would start with picking up Lee collet factory crimp die first if you already don’t have one. If you still have inconsistent velocities change your primers. If you still have inconsistent velocities after that you could have a bad batch or old powder. Good luck! Keep us posted.

[derek45]

roll crimp

https://i.imgur.com/Vn0RzSE.jpg

[Tripplebeards]

roll crimp

https://i.imgur.com/Vn0RzSE.jpg


Great example. PLEASE DO NOT FEEL IM PICKING ON YOU or YOUR CRIMP in an way but that photo is a perfect example IMO why I had inconsistent velocities. Thst boolit clearly shows, once again IMO, why I had inconsistent velocity issues. IMO You don’t have an, even, consistent SEAL all the way around your boolit. Im sure your load shoots great at close range, for 25 yard pistol shooting. But for ringing out the best possible accuracy at 100 yards and beyond not for me or any of my rifles. IMO You have a an even pulled in case neck on the outer edges but not in front where the case lip is bent over and over laps. I recovered some of boolits and had black powder burns showing leaking on them with crimps like this. When I changed crimp styles that stopped happening and I went from minute of pie plate to shooting tacks. IMO that lip looks like it could have been caused by not trimming your brass and/or a crookedly seated boolit. The roll crimp on yours and my loads looks like a round “air bubble” around the crimp bend VS a lee collet factory crimp die which as you can clearly see looks like a sharp even angle (seal) around my lube groove. Once again not trying to start a fight..just one man’s opinion.

https://i.imgur.com/GFm4quh.jpg

[Thumbcocker]

FWIW my loads are done with Hornaday dies. I also have Dillon dies that crimp similarly to the pics above.

[RJM52]

I'm also a 100% believer in the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp dies...

[Tripplebeards]

Imo that roll type of crimp above “IF” crimped to heavy loosens the neck tension causing velocity and pressure variances. It’s what happened to me anyways. That’s why I like the lee Collet style crimp because no matter how heavy i crimp it still seals with an even seal.

Sorry, finally went back and read every post here. Never tried or heard of wolf primers. Its easy enough to test with another primer if you have any laying around. I do use magnum primers with H110/W296 in my 44 mag loads. I even use magnum primers for my Colt 45 new vaquero with 5.2 grains of trail boss loads loaded long to the bottom lube groove with a lee 250 grain boolit. It’s average velocity it 585 fps and is tac driver…and I do roll crimp the Colt 45’s.

[414gates]

Thst boolit clearly shows, once again IMO, why I had inconsistent velocity issues. IMO You don’t have an, even, consistent SEAL all the way around your boolit.

The reload in this picture may not have a perfect case mouth but it's very well sealed below the crimp groove to the base of the bullet.

Your inconsistent velocity is most likely due to poor case fill causing velocity spikes. Too low on the powder blows things up.

[littlejack]

IMO, I see nothing wrong with the role crimp photographed. What "I" think is being seen, is the light reflected by the overhead light, or the camera/phone flash.
That is the exact way I crimp my .41 magnum heavy bullet loads w/ W296, with no issues at all.

[littlejack]

Oh, and another thing. As far as my loads being accurate at 25 yards and not longer ranges? I sight my revolver at 9" high at 50 yards. My main shooting target at the gun club, is a 16" gong at 200 yards. The revolver will hit the gong 6x6 if I do my part.

[DougGuy]

I'm also a 100% believer in the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp dies...

That's a totally different die than the collet style factory crimp die (which is the die in discussion here). Let's NOT fork the thread into a dual conversation about two different dies.

[Tripplebeards]

That's great shooting!!!...Once again not trying to start a fight. I know Its not apple to Apples because im shooting my load in a rifle
But my crimped load will shoot just a hair over moa at 200 yards...off a bench of course. Same with my marlin 336i. 35 rem with cast. Did some old posts here and you'll see the results. I am sure I wouldn't shoot that tight with a pistol at the same distance. But I bet your accuracy would improve by changing crimps. It's at least worth a try IMO for a $15 lee crimp die. If it's not the issue I will bet money that it will improve the OP's groups.

[littlejack]

I must apologize. After rereading my last post (#53) it sounded a little "snarky".That is not the way I intended for it to sound. Tripplebeards, I know you're not trying to start a fight. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's sir.

[DougGuy]

I am sure I wouldn't shoot that tight with a pistol at the same distance. But I bet your accuracy would improve by changing crimps. It's at least worth a try IMO for a $15 lee crimp die. If it's not the issue I will bet money that it will improve the OP's groups.

I'm going to quote my earlier post since we are comparing crimp photos, I did the heavy roll crimp vs. the collet crimp in my own 7 1/2" SBH. The rounds crimped with the heavy roll crimp DID NOT get the ES down anywhere near where the collet crimp got them. Same brass, boolit, powder, primer, the ONLY difference is the crimp.

A number of things will open groups, but let's talk about only the ES (extreme spread) from highest to lowest FPS in a string of fire. The heavy roll crimp is adequate enough that the boolits will not pull crimp and tie the gun up, but without miking each round and then miking it again after each shot, you cannot totally eliminate boolit creep in the case (and the softer the boolit, the more this is likely to happen) causing or contributing to the ES, which as the ES number grows, so does group sizes!

The collet crimp, and especially the modified collet crimp not only holds the boolit much more firmly than any other style of crimp, it provides resistance to boolit movement at a critical time, and I can't explain how or why but it makes for much better ignition and much more consistent ignition, which would explain the low ES numbers that come with using the collet style crimp.

If you think your 2" group at 50yds is good, acceptable (I would) then stretch it out to 100yds and then to 200yds and NOW compare crimps! It is my opinion that you will see improvement that you did not know was there for taking advantage of.


My modded Lee collet crimp really helped my full house loads, brought the ES down to under 20, and groups showed the change. Lee C430-310RF. WLP primers. 17.0gr 2400, velocity from 1180 to 1200fps.

Modded collet crimp on left, hard roll crimp on the right.

299921

Crimped rounds compared to fired cases with the same crimp as the first pic:

299922

Here is a thread documenting the mods to the collet crimp die: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

An afterthought.. Mr. Tripplebeards you might like this, how about a comparison between the hard roll crimp vs. the collet crimp using ONLY primers? Yeah it might stick a boolit in the barrel but that can be gotten out easy enough, even if it jumps forward enough to stick it in the forcing cone tying up the cylinder that can be pushed back in the chamber and the round taken out normally.

The point being that the roll crimp generally is NOT stout enough to hold the boolit against the initial pressure of the primer lighting off, and so in live fire with live ammo, when the primer lights off and before the powder has developed a good flame front, the pressure from the primer pushes against the boolit some causing movement, and then when the powder lights off, you have more case volume under the boolit, which causes erratic ignition and a greatly increased ES. To my mind, THIS is where the collet crimp sets itself apart from the rest of the crimp dies, it holds that boolit a LOT harder in place than the roll crimp, and I think this is what makes the ES consistently below 20.

[littlejack]

Another thing to take into consideration. Case wall thickness. I load with most different brands of cases, and different lots of each in my.41 magnum. One thing I have noticed, and proof measured, is that the different brands and lots can and will be different. I can also distinguish whether the boolit seats easy or harder from a thinner or thicker wall case. There's even a difference in cases of the same lots. Although, it may only be .001 or .0015, that syphers out to .002 to .003 difference in the inside diameter, which results in less bullet tension. That will give a totally different amount of pull from one case to another. IMO, that alone would give erratic ignition in our reloads.
The only thing absolute in reloading is, nothing is absolute.

[Tripplebeards]

I have ran into is loose neck tension on some old 300 RUM brass that my buddy gave me when he sold his gun. The 1999' brass cases were shot and fired enough that he and I lost count of the firings. Anyways, the neck tension on almost all of them were as loose as a goose even after annealing and full length sizing. I could pull or push the seated bullets in or out with zero force. I beleive the necks were too thin. I would assume using range brass with unknown firing would have various neck tensions and could also be the culprit. New brass fixed my 300 RUM issues.

[derek45]

Great example. PLEASE DO NOT FEEL IM PICKING ON YOU or YOUR CRIMP ..... But for ringing out the best possible accuracy at 100 yards ...

uh huh

how about that load at 90 yards with a snub nose 38 special ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY3XP8Ghe1E
.
.
.
your turn, "PLEASE DO NOT FEEL IM PICKING ON YOU either"

https://i.imgur.com/DX3YwnN.gif