9 mm load development

[Pirate69]

I have purchased a new Sig Sauer P320 X5 Legion in 9mm. Thought I would determine the lowest powder charge that will work the slide and at the same time look at grouping. Five loads of 5 rounds, between 3.4 grains of Unique and 4.2 grains of Unique were balance-weighed for the test. I am shooting a powder coated Lee 358-125-RF which weighs around 132 grains as sized to 0.358”. Loads shot from lowest charge to highest charge.

The loads were shot off a bench with a Case-Guard plastic pistol rest. Not the best but all I have to work with. Target distance was a measured 50 feet and a 1” target dot was used as a target.

The Legion has the heavier 14-pound slide spring installed. All loads worked the slide properly. The 3.4 grain load is about as low as I can go with the 14-pound spring. The spent cases just clear the port and lands about 1 foot from the pistol on the bench.
There does not seem to be a lot of difference in the group sizes. Will probably select the 3.6 grain load for the next loading session.

I had previously loaded some rounds using the 0.5 cc (4.6 grains?) Lee dipper. Shot eight rounds and got a center to center spread of 3 inches at 50 feet. The best 7 rounds gave me a 2-inch group. Does not look like weighing provides much improvement over dipping.

Powder Coated 132 gr Lee 358-125-RF
Unique powder
Powder Charge 5 Shot Group; Inches Best 4 of 5; Inches QuickLoad Vel.
3.4 .....................2.75 ........................2.25 ......................827
3.6 .....................2.75 ........................1.25 ......................869
3.8 .....................2.13 ........................2.13 ......................910
4.0 .....................2.25 ........................2.13 ......................950
4.2 .....................2.25 ........................1.25 ......................989

[megasupermagnum]

No, if all you are getting is 2"-3" at 50 feet, then powder weight is at the bottom of the list. It's when you get to 3"-4" at 50 yards that you will see a difference between weighed and thrown powder charges. Even then, I often find the Lee dippers to be about the most accurate way to throw powder. That's how I load my 800x loads.

[MT Gianni]

I would suggest that Unique is a medium flow through a measure. AA2 should measure the same either way as it flows like water. 800x and Ramshot Silhuette may be better dipped.

[Green Frog]

I'm using an old Pacific (rotor type) Pistol Measure. By trial and error I found a rotor that drops about 4.15 grains of HP38 which I put under some commercially swaged round nosed lead bullets that run 125 grains. Function in my S&W Model 639 is flawless, but I haven't really tested it for paper accuracy... it qualifies as minute of plinker accurate, so that is good for now. I will mention that I've come into a bunch of HP38 and W231, so I'll adjust the charge a little, but I expect to keep using it for both my 9mm autos and my 32s as well.

Froggie

[farmbif]

for 9mm I grown to like silhouette and be-86. but there are a lot of powders that work very well. ive always practiced with loads that are going to most effective if going to depend on them for self protection.

[Pirate69]

No, if all you are getting is 2"-3" at 50 feet, then powder weight is at the bottom of the list. It's when you get to 3"-4" at 50 yards that you will see a difference between weighed and thrown powder charges. Even then, I often find the Lee dippers to be about the most accurate way to throw powder. That's how I load my 800x loads.

I am not sure I am capable of achieving 3"-4" at 50 yards with open sights and a 5" barrel. But, I guess a trial is in order. My guess is 12"-15". If better, I think I would be very happy. Is anyone seeing 2"-3" at 50 yards with open sights?

[44MAG#1]

I am not sure I am capable of achieving 3"-4" at 50 yards with open sights and a 5" barrel. But, I guess a trial is in order. My guess is 12"-15". If better, I think I would be very happy. Is anyone seeing 2"-3" at 50 yards with open sights?

What can you do with the gun at 50 yards OFFHAND with good factory ammo. Then see what you can do with the same ammo from a good rest at 50 yards. Then determine if you are capable of telling minor differences in bench accuracy when shooting offhand. Only worry when you get good enough OFFHAND to tell minor differences off a benchrest in your OFFHAND shooting.

[farmbif]

I got one of those Burris fast fires. although there are all kinds of sights and lasers these days for handguns. my eyes are not what they used to be.
there is an FBI training film where the firearms instructor demonstrates shooting semi auto handgun into bullseye at 100 yards. that is worth watching if you can find it. I believe it was available on YouTube at some point.

[megasupermagnum]

I am not sure I am capable of achieving 3"-4" at 50 yards with open sights and a 5" barrel. But, I guess a trial is in order. My guess is 12"-15". If better, I think I would be very happy. Is anyone seeing 2"-3" at 50 yards with open sights?

Yes, I can get to 3" at 50 yards, but that has been about my limit. It takes a lot of different things to make that happen, and I do not go through all that trouble for practice ammo. I'm not saying you have to do it, or that you shouldn't work up loads, but if all you are shooting is 50 feet, load development will not help you. Every bullet, and every load will work at 50 feet.

[Pirate69]

Yes, I can get to 3" at 50 yards, but that has been about my limit. It takes a lot of different things to make that happen, and I do not go through all that trouble for practice ammo. I'm not saying you have to do it, or that you shouldn't work up loads, but if all you are shooting is 50 feet, load development will not help you. Every bullet, and every load will work at 50 feet.

Awesome!!!!!!!!!

[dverna]

Yes, I can get to 3" at 50 yards, but that has been about my limit. It takes a lot of different things to make that happen, and I do not go through all that trouble for practice ammo. I'm not saying you have to do it, or that you shouldn't work up loads, but if all you are shooting is 50 feet, load development will not help you. Every bullet, and every load will work at 50 feet.

I pretty honest post IMO. Most CF semiauto pistols will not shoot consistent 3" groups at 50 yards regardless of how good the ammunition or shooter are.

And at 50' nearly any bullet/load will work for most people.

The only "load development" I have ever done for pistol calibers is for Bullseye and for pistol caliber carbines. both at 50 yards. I do not hunt with a pistol so no need to have a super accurate load past 25 yards.

I keep things simple. For example, I use the .38 Spl to plink in seven guns. I find a load that is the most accurate in the scoped carbine and use the same load in everything else. Even if a different load would be more accurate in a couple of the pistols I would not care. A 1" difference in group size at 25 yards is not material for my needs.

I got a couple of 9mm carbines this winter and will do the same thing. What ever works best in the carbines will become my 9mm pistol practice load.

Other people will use different powders and different bullets in each gun to get the best possible accuracy for each of them. That is the "best" way to develop loads but a waste of time for me. I am not good enough to take advantage of the performance difference. I load in bulk and do not want multiple loads for each caliber. It is nice to pick up a few boxes of ammunition and know it will work in everything.

Most people overthink stuff like this. Even a Master Class shooter cannot hit a 3" target at 50 yards every shot. And the bulk of pistol rounds are fired at 25 yards or less.


If I had a scoped handgun and needed accuracy to 100 yards, I would treat it like a rifle load.

[Green Frog]

I pretty honest post IMO. Most CF semiauto pistols will not shoot consistent 3" groups at 50 yards regardless of how good the ammunition or shooter are.

And at 50' nearly any bullet/load will work for most people.

The only "load development" I have ever done for pistol calibers is for Bullseye and for pistol caliber carbines. both at 50 yards. I do not hunt with a pistol so no need to have a super accurate load past 25 yards.

I keep things simple. For example, I use the .38 Spl to plink in seven guns. I find a load that is the most accurate in the scoped carbine and use the same load in everything else. Even if a different load would be more accurate in a couple of the pistols I would not care. A 1" difference in group size at 25 yards is not material for my needs.

I got a couple of 9mm carbines this winter and will do the same thing. What ever works best in the carbines will become my 9mm pistol practice load.

Other people will use different powders and different bullets in each gun to get the best possible accuracy for each of them. That is the "best" way to develop loads but a waste of time for me. I am not good enough to take advantage of the performance difference. I load in bulk and do not want multiple loads for each caliber. It is nice to pick up a few boxes of ammunition and know it will work in everything.

Most people overthink stuff like this. Even a Master Class shooter cannot hit a 3" target at 50 yards every shot. And the bulk of pistol rounds are fired at 25 yards or less.


If I had a scoped handgun and needed accuracy to 100 yards, I would treat it like a rifle load.

Master cClass in what discipline? If a Bullseye shooter can’t stay in 3” at 50 yds Slowfire he won’t make Master Class, and if his shooting falls off to where he no longer can stay in 3”, he won’t be very competitive.

Froggie

[gwpercle]

I agree 100% with your statement about Unique and dipping charges vs weighing ...
Unique being rather flaky lends itself well to dipped charges ... lets rephrase that ... You can dip Unique as well or better than metered charges ... who wants to weigh every handgun charge !!!
I shoot a lot of Unique and have gone more to using dippers . They are just as accurate as my Lyman 55 and weighing them all is slow with no big advantage .
When loading in batchs of 50 to 200 ... the dipper gets the used to dispense the powder .
I also like the fact I can see the powder go in the case and can visually inspect them all before seating a boolit ... makes me feel safer seeing the powder go in .
Gary

[MT Gianni]

Comparing load accuracy from anything other than a rest is pointless, IMO.

[44MAG#1]

Comparing load accuracy from anything other than a rest is pointless, IMO.

That is because 90 percent can't shoot well enough OFFHAND to tell small differences in accuracy. It is nice to tell ones self that but deep down most know they can't

[Pirate69]

Well, I had to try a 50-yard group. I had some rounds that were loaded for another pistol available. I have shot-up everything I had loaded to play with the Sig. From the plastic rest, I shot ten rounds. First of all, I was surprised that they hit high on the target. The spread for the ten rounds was 10 inches. But, 7 of the rounds gave a slightly less than a 5-inch spread. Potential, better than I expected. I want to see if some carefully sorted boolets and balance-weighed charges can get me in a 10-round, 5-inch group at 50-yards. Something to play with anyway.

[Pirate69]

That is because 90 percent can't shoot well enough to tell small differences in accuracy. It is nice to tell ones self that but deep down most know they can't

That would be me. LOL

[44MAG#1]

That would be me. LOL

It is not only you but most of us. I have learned through observation most handgun shooter just aren't as good as they think. This is what I have determined over years of membership at ranges plus shooting on indoor ranges.
I shot with an ex shooting partner of mine that was a High Master Class NRA Bullseye shooter and he was good. Very, very, very good. It didn't matter how much recoil he could handle it. He is now over 80 and doesn't shoot handguns anymore
He was the best I have seen personally. I have heard the "talkers" and "wallet group" guys talk a big game but that is what it mostly is.

[GONRA]

GONRA's 85 and recently gifted all my .44 mag, 44 AUTOMAG, 45 Win Mag semiauto pistols,
ammo, dies, moulds, etc. and reloading components to my Youngest Son.
Gettin Olde's Bad New, but gotta face the facts!!!

[dverna]

It is not only you but most of us. I have learned through observation most handgun shooter just aren't as good as they think. This is what I have determined over years of membership at ranges plus shooting on indoor ranges.
I shot with an ex shooting partner of mine that was a High Master Class NRA Bullseye shooter and he was good. Very, very, very good. It didn't matter how much recoil he could handle it. He is now over 80 and doesn't shoot handguns anymore
He was the best I have seen personally. I have heard the "talkers" and "wallet group" guys talk a big game but that is what it mostly is.

True words. I have been shooting a long time and at different venues. Was captain of the university rifle team and member of the university pistol team. Have shot NRA Bullseye, Smallbore, IPSC, ISU pistol including free pistol, competitive trap etc etc. I have shot with great shooters.

There is a lot of BS flung around. Always wonder why so few great internet shooters do not compete. I would have won a lot fewer trinkets if the internet shooters had shown up and shot for score....or maybe not...LOL

[Pirate69]

This a great conversation and I started to think about how much pistol sight control a person would need to shot a 3" group at 50 yards. That would mean the person was always hitting plus or minus 1.5" of the POA on each shot. If you convert this to a line graph, it would have a slope of 0.00083 inches (+or-) per inch of travel. What does that mean for allowable variation in the height of the front sight to maintain a 3" group at 50 yards? I measured the distance from the leading edge of my Sig back sight to the leading edge of the front sight. It was 6.625". That means that the front sight must not vary from the perfect alignment by more than 0.006" at the time of firing. People that can shoot a 3" group at 50 yards must have almost perfect eyesight. Not saying it can not be done; but the eyes much be capable of refining the sight alignment within that tolerance. Do not think my 71 year old eyes can do it. But I will have fun trying.

[Green Frog]

I STAND CORRECTED. 44Mag1 reminded me that the ten ring of a fifty yard Bullseye target is a little over 3” so according to my statement Master Class shooters would need to shoot perfect scores to qualify as Master Class. This is incorrect. I was confusing the indoor, reduced size target for slow fire, which is about an inch and a half, but which is shot at just 25 yards. Mea Culpa!

Green Frog

[44MAG#1]

I STAND CORRECTED. 44Mag1 reminded me that the ten ring of a fifty yard Bullseye target is a little over 3” so according to my statement Master Class shooters would need to shoot perfect scores to qualify as Master Class. This is incorrect. I was confusing the indoor, reduced size target for slow fire, which is about an inch and a half, but which is shot at just 25 yards. Mea Culpa!

Green Frog

I have some OFFICIAL NRA 50 yards Bullseye targets. As close as I can measure the 10 ring inside the white circle is 3.315 inches. From ouyside to outside of the white ring is 3.355 inches.
To consistently keep all offhand shots in that area OFFHAND, well let's just say I want to meet that person and watch him/her do it. I would say I won't have to worry about coming up with gas money for the trip.

[ChuckS1]

To consistently keep all offhand shots in that area OFFHAND, well let's just say I want to meet that person and watch him/her do it. I would say I won't have to worry about coming up with gas money for the trip.

Are you saying you don’t think it can be done?

[44MAG#1]

Are you saying you don’t think it can be done?

It can be done. And has be done but not anywhere near consistently enough to say one can do it far more than not. Shooting a 3.00 or 3.25 inch group once in awhile doesn't meant one has arrived. It just means it can be done
I have shot 7.5 inch groups offhand standing two hand hold at 100 yards more than a couple times. But that is not consistently.
To me consistently is 75 percent plus of the time. Not 2 or 3 percent of the time. I used to shoot with a Master Class NRA Bullseye shooter and have seen others. My buddy has shot 100 point 50 yard targets before. But not consistently.
A hole in one in golf doesn't make one a professional.

[Pirate69]

I saw on the internet that a PFC had shot a 3.34" group, one handed, at fifty yards during a competition. He was using a 45. That is some shooting. It was a 10-shot group.

[ChuckS1]

It can be done. And has be done but not anywhere near consistently enough to say one can do it far more than not. Shooting a 3.00 or 3.25 inch group once in awhile doesn't meant one has arrived. It just means it can be done
I have shot 7.5 inch groups offhand standing two hand hold at 100 yards more than a couple times. But that is not consistently.
To me consistently is 75 percent plus of the time. Not 2 or 3 percent of the time. I used to shoot with a Master Class NRA Bullseye shooter and have seen others. My buddy has shot 100 point 50 yard targets before. But not consistently.
A hole in one in golf doesn't make one a professional.

Take a look at the 2021 .45 ACP slow fire scores at this link. Sixty six shooters out 78 scored at least 150 out of a possible 200 (that’s your 75% threshold), one hand hold, at 50 yards. The number next to the aggregate score is the number of hits in the X ring, which is a little bigger than 1.5 inches. So yeah, it can be done by folks who can do do it consistently.

https://www.nrahq.org/compete/natpdf/cp143-21.pdf

[44MAG#1]

Take a look at the 2021 .45 ACP slow fire scores at this link. Thirty nine shooters out 78 scored at least 175 out of a possible 200 (that’s your 75% threshold), one hand hold, at 50 yards. The number next to the aggregate score is the number of hits in the X ring, which is a little bigger than 1.5 inches. So yeah, it can be done by folks who can do do it consistently.

https://www.nrahq.org/compete/natpdf/cp143-21.pdf

All of their shots did not stay in the 10 ring. One or more must have been a 9 or may be even an 8. One can shoot nine tens and pop a seven and still shoot a 97 point target.
We are talking group size. 10 shot make a group. One can shoot nine tens and pop a 6 and still shoot a 96. One can shoot seven tens and pop 3 nines and still score a 97.
Group man, group.

[44MAG#1]

All too many time shooters will "cherry pick" what they can do. As an extreme example. Someone shoots 10 rounds offhand standing at 100 yards and the put 9 out of the 10 in 1 inch but one flies out to 12 inches that group of 10 shots did not go into 1 inch. 9 did but not the 10. so did you shoot a 9 shot group or a 10 shot group? What if the bad shot was in the middle of the string of shots in the group? What if it was the first shot?

[MT Gianni]

This a great conversation and I started to think about how much pistol sight control a person would need to shot a 3" group at 50 yards. That would mean the person was always hitting plus or minus 1.5" of the POA on each shot. If you convert this to a line graph, it would have a slope of 0.00083 inches (+or-) per inch of travel. What does that mean for allowable variation in the height of the front sight to maintain a 3" group at 50 yards? I measured the distance from the leading edge of my Sig back sight to the leading edge of the front sight. It was 6.625". That means that the front sight must not vary from the perfect alignment by more than 0.006" at the time of firing. People that can shoot a 3" group at 50 yards must have almost perfect eyesight. Not saying it can not be done; but the eyes much be capable of refining the sight alignment within that tolerance. Do not think my 71 year old eyes can do it. But I will have fun trying.

It is nearly impossible to hold a handgun without some wobble. The trick is to train yourself to have a circular wobble, or transcend that to a circular motion to the bullseye. The size of the circle is unimportant. Only press the trigger as the gun approaches the target in the last 1/4 arc of it's movement. Do not increase pressure as it hits the target or when it passes. Improve until you are pressing only in the last 335-340 degrees of the circle. As you train you shorten your circle.

[44MAG#1]

It is nearly impossible to hold a handgun without some wobble. The trick is to train yourself to have a circular wobble, or transcend that to a circular motion to the bullseye. The size of the circle is unimportant. Only press the trigger as the gun approaches the target in the last 1/4 arc of it's movement. Do not increase pressure as it hits the target or when it passes. Improve until you are pressing only in the last 335-340 degrees of the circle. As you train you shorten your circle.

I have heard of your technique. The problem with it is unless the shooter has near perfect control of himself the exercise turns into the shooter picking his shot (jerking the trigger) as the sights swing through the Bull. That is something one DOES NOT want to happen but it quite frequently does without super mind control. Can it be learned, yes it can but can be quite difficult unless the shooter is someone that is wwwaaaayyy on top of things. This is another thing that is easily said but hard to convince oneself to do without strict, very strict discipline.

[fredj338]

The bullet weight sounds like the bullets are soft. You night get better accuracy with a bit harder bullet. I water drop my coated out of the oven. THough I would be fine with 2" groups @ 15y, shoot them at 25y & see what they look like. Agree, you wont get much help weighing vs throwing charges imo. Diff case volume form brand to brand will make that moot.

[alfadan]

I used to take an 8lb weight and hold out at arms length, hold it, and relax as an exercise for my one-handed shooting.

[eveready]

You have to remember that in bullseye shooting the bullet only has to touch the scoring ring. The bullet does not have to be fully inside of the scoring ring. This increases the scoring area, by nearly half the diameter of the bullet.

[megasupermagnum]

This a great conversation and I started to think about how much pistol sight control a person would need to shot a 3" group at 50 yards. That would mean the person was always hitting plus or minus 1.5" of the POA on each shot. If you convert this to a line graph, it would have a slope of 0.00083 inches (+or-) per inch of travel. What does that mean for allowable variation in the height of the front sight to maintain a 3" group at 50 yards? I measured the distance from the leading edge of my Sig back sight to the leading edge of the front sight. It was 6.625". That means that the front sight must not vary from the perfect alignment by more than 0.006" at the time of firing. People that can shoot a 3" group at 50 yards must have almost perfect eyesight. Not saying it can not be done; but the eyes much be capable of refining the sight alignment within that tolerance. Do not think my 71 year old eyes can do it. But I will have fun trying.

If your eyes can't do it, a red dot can save you. Honestly eyesight is not that big of a deal when shooting at 50 yards, unless you are really trying to scrape every last inch out you can. You often hear things like "the gun is more accurate than I am". While true, it's also a pointless saying. It doesn't matter how good of a shooter you are, a Keltec P32 is not mechanically capable of really good 50 yard groups. You can put one in a ransom rest, and it still won't shoot very good. On the flip side, it doesn't matter if you have a perfect S&W model 16 capable from a ransom rest of incredible groups, if you yourself have any number of bad habits.

3" at 50 yards is not something that happens over night. It's not something that happens every day (unless you are talking about some special handgun like a TC Encore). In an ideal world, we would all have access to a Ransom Rest, and we could make our handguns the most accurate as possible. We could then practice shooting with those loads that are for sure as good as can be. Since that isn't the case, most of us have to figure out a good bench method. One of the biggest factors I find in handgun accuracy is a consistent grip. Trigger pull is the most important, but everyone knows that. A consistent grip trumps a crystal clear sight picture. Even with my young eyes, I can't get the rear sight, front sight, and target clear all at the same time. It's a matter of focusing on the front sight, then finding a target that allows the crispest picture possible, while still allowing a precise aiming point. A 1" red dot at 50 yards is useless, nobody can see that. A 13" black circle NRA SR-C target is pretty big, nothing real defined. Personally I like an upside down black T with about 1 1/2" to 2" wide lines. I like the T itself around 8"x8". Plus the sights on your gun matter. I like black square rear, and square if not undercut front. I don't like ramped front sights. All black sights is probably best for targets, but my fronts are orange.

Then you have to figure out how to hold the handgun. Just slapping it on a sandbag won't do that good. You can't just stuff a bunch of bags around and under the grip, since a consistent hold is more important than sight alignment. You need to steady your arms, not the handgun. I use one front bag, then stack some foam pads under my wrists. I want my wrists steady, but not locked solid. You will need that movement to get on target without having to push on the front bag. You will also need more pads under at least one elbow. Often I like to kneel behind the bench so I can push my body against the back, but not every bench allows this. A chair works great, but you usually need taller bags all around to make that work, unless the chair is adjustable. Once you figure all that out, you need to focus on trigger pulls, and consistent grip. Often I can feel myself start to tense, or push into the bags after a while. This is fatigue, and it results in inconsistent grip, and groups open up.

I don't do this every single load this way. I usually do a first run working up loads. when I identify a good range, I then come back and shoot them off a bench like this, 25 shots minimum each load. Just about every variable has some effect on accuracy. In 9mm, I'd focus on the bullet more than anything. Make sure those bullets are cast great with no imperfections, good base fill out, it doesn't hurt to sort by weight. Then make sure your brass is not sizing them down. Just pull a bullet, and measure it. Sorting by brass headstamp definitely has an effect, especially in 9mm which can have a zillion brands and variations. Measuring every powder drop will also help. Even the lube or coating you use has some effect, but nothing earth shattering.

Yes, shooting groups to that level is tedious as can be. It's not enjoyable, but it's the best way I know how for maximizing my handguns for hunting. After you do that, then you can get back to real world shooting practice.

I'm guessing you don't need that great of accuracy for 9mm luger.