Too much chamber fouling on a Swiss Vetterli.

[Dhall_37]

Howdy folks, I’m loading for a friends Swiss Vetterli we got converted to center fire. I’m loading with goex, a waxed wad behind some Matt’s Bullets .430 315gr flat nosed bullets.

After firing about 5 shots the chamber will not allow another round to chamber, I looked in it and saw lots of lead fouling.

Is there a remedy to this solution? I have some rounds made up with my own lube on the Matt’s bullets and a grease cookie to see if they might function better.

Or should I size the bullets down a touch to say .427? I also read that the chamber on these guns have a sort of taper to them so they might prefer a round nosed bullet?

Any advice sure would help!

[tmanbuckhunter]

Are you sure it's lead fouling, or just BP fouling? What lubricant are you using? If you're using a petroleum based lubricant, it's just going to turn into cement when mixed with BP fouling as well. Fouling control? Alloy? Have you made a chamber cast to see what the throat diameter is and sized accordingly?

[Dhall_37]

I was using the lube that came with the bullets, it’s a red color so I think it’s petroleum based. I don’t know the alloy off my head, but these bullets are for heavy 44 magnum loads so I think it’s on the harder side.

My new cartridges I haven’t shot are made with a bees wax and olive oil lube I made.

I assumed the fouling was lead as it was grey in color, however it could have been a sludge as you said.

Haven’t done a chamber cast yet, I want to take it to the gun smith to do that, However he’s out sick for a while.

[tmanbuckhunter]

If you were using a petroleum based lubricant, then even if you were acquiring lead fouling, that was probably a major part of the issue. Petroleum products and black powder do not mix, and should not mix. Hard alloy likely isn't doing you any favors either. You'll want at minimum a 40:1, 16:1 is better. I personally use 25:1 for almost everything but that's because I got a large supply of it for free and my wife would kill me if I ordered 300lbs of 16:1 right now. Sizing with BPC's is still important, and you need to make sure you fill up the throat to cut down on gas cutting. A good wad, vegetable or poly, will also help immensely.

You'll likely see better results with your beeswax/olive oil lubricant you made, but it's not likely to fix every issue you're having. As to chamber casting, that is incredibly easy and doesn't require a gunsmith. Just need a propane torch, a ladle, and a cleaning rod with some patches.

[Dhall_37]

Thanks for the great advice, I have a lee 44 310gr mould, just no lead or a pot to melt it in, that’s why I have to buy them.

I’ll also use your advice on my Russian Berdan 2

[Castaway]

And wipe between shots

[Dhall_37]

I can’t really wipe between shots, the bolt is a real pain to remove and is an involved process, and I don’t like sticking a cleaning rod down the muzzle and getting gunk in the action.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Build yourself a blowtube and use that instead. I like wiping, but it can be a finnicky thing to get down when shooting grease groove bullets. Believe it or not, too clean can be an issue and it cost me a win... hell, it cost me a match period.

[MichaelR]

The vetterli is a military cartridge and should be able to fire many shots before fouling out. Your bullet is too hard to start. Try 20/1 and a black powder lube such as DGL.

[Dhall_37]

I’ve thought about the idea of a blow tube, I guess I’ll have to do it. I’m also still getting geared up to cast my own, once I can do that things will be a lot easier.

[tmanbuckhunter]

The vetterli is a military cartridge and should be able to fire many shots before fouling out. Your bullet is too hard to start. Try 20/1 and a black powder lube such as DGL.


I’ve thought about the idea of a blow tube, I guess I’ll have to do it. I’m also still getting geared up to cast my own, once I can do that things will be a lot easier.

What Michael said up there. My trapdoor with SPG and a government bullet can get up to about 20-25 shots before accuracy drops off, and about 60 before chambering gets difficult. Right alloy, right lube, it will continue to work. Blowtube will just help you keep accuracy there thru out the entire string of shots.

[pworley1]

I shoot smokeless in mine and have never had any issues.

[Dhall_37]

Gotcha, I’d like to stick with black powder for now, it’s quite fun and I like the smoke.

[MichaelR]

I just measured an original cartridge. The paper patched bullet measures .423” over the patch. The bullet it’s self is .415”. The paper is .002” thick. The Vetterli is loaded with the bullet and then the bullet and neck are patched. You probably can use a .423” GG bullet and open the neck up to hold it and the rifle should not notice the difference. I strongly suggest using PP bullets because they work much better for shooting “dirty”. Use 20/1 alloy and a mixture of one part bees wax and 2 parts jojoba oil for the lube. This lube works exceptionally well.

[Dhall_37]

Had some success the other day, grease cookie load keep the fouling soft and I got through 16 rounds. The last 11 were loads with no grease cookie!! Only issue was a little bit of wax or olive oil from the grease cookie blew out into my glasses. Me thinks I need to make the cookie a little harder.

[hawkenhunter50]

You mention not wanting to run a cleaning rod down the muzzle and getting fouling in your action. Here's a trick you can use. Leave the fired case in the chamber when you clean it. I do my trapdoor springfield this way.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m a fan of grease cookies.

[Dhall_37]

To be honest I don’t even know how to make a proper grease cookie. I just placed a wad over the powder, filled the rest with dried but moist panlube and compressed a bullet on top. Some squished out the sides, but not all of it I think.

[GregLaROCHE]

To be honest I don’t even know how to make a proper grease cookie. I just placed a wad over the powder, filled the rest with dried but moist panlube and compressed a bullet on top. Some squished out the sides, but not all of it I think.

First start with what you use to lube your boolits. Melt it and pour it into a shallow container until it’s an eighth of an inch thick or so thick. After you have added BP and compressed it with a card on top, you can normally turn the case over without anything falling out. Stick the neck of the case into the now solidified boolit lube. It will act like a cutter and fill the mouth of the case. Then put a card on top and push it gently down onto the BP and card. Now seat the boolit on top.
This is a very simplified way to start. There are many more nuances, especially the thickness and hardness of the cookie. You don’t want the lube used for the cookie to be squishing out. That risks the chance of some of it getting forced into the powder.

[FrankJD]

Grease cookies and wad stacks are great ways to decrease the powder charge.

I think some, maybe most of the military rifle cartridges of the 19th century had grease cookies. I'd seen images of some of the cartridges opened up and there was a grease cookie. Now, that makes sense for the military where the need for fouling control is not such a good thing in the heat of a fire fight. And it might make good sense for a hunter, too.

For competition where overall accuracy versus rate of fire sorta wins out, a full case charge of black powder under a wad and bullet or PPB makes more sense. With a .45-70, a PPB can sit in the case about 1/10" and that makes the rifle into a kinda virtual 45-90, sorta, maybe, cause I can easily charge that brass with at least 80 grains of 1-1/2f. Since a PPB is a bore rider, there's no concern for cartridge OAL, so if the gun likes it, seating the slick deeper into the case will reduce powder charge. I just did that with a real 19th century Remington rolling block rifle, charged it with 70 grains of Swiss 1-1/2f and stuck in a 416 grain slick. The old gun printed well at 25 and 50 yards (considering I have trouble with "V" sights and prefer peeps) and it got close to a mark on a mound 190 yards down range. Fouling control was just a pair of Moose Milk wet patches and then a dry patch. After shooting, rifle cleanup was a slow three minutes, too. :)

[MichaelR]

To make grease wads, 2 parts jojoba oil and 1 part bees wax by weight. I use 1/4” plexiglass strips for spacers and roll the lube out on a sheet of glass with a piece of waxed paper over the lube. Chill it in the refrigerator for easier handling. I use a wad punched from fiber milk cartons under and over the lube wad. Use the case mouth to cut the lube wad. The lube needs to be soft so it smears onto the bore. If it’s firm, it will just blow out the muzzle. The proper consistency is a lot like butter at room temperature. I’ve considered using unsalted butter, but the shelf life of the ammunition would be short because butter gets rancid.

[FrankJD]

I'll add that typically a first problem encountered with firing black powder cartridges is fouling at the end of the chamber, which will not allow a new cartridge to seat. Once cleaned out, it's good to go. Way back when I had that problem when using a blow tube (even though I loaded the lubed bullet cartridge with a grease cookie) that got me to start wiping, which lead to going the bore wiper route.

[hpbear101]

I shoot mostly smokeless in all of mine and it works great. I like BP cartridges and have tried it in the Vetterli and didn't have a lot of luck, my bullet doesn't have big enough grease grooves and my neck is too short for grease cookies. I have the same issue with a 50-95 Express and recently started using H777 FFG in that cartridge, and have also tried it in the Swiss and 11mm Mauser to good effect. The H777 behaves like BP just not supposed to compress it. It also has 15% more energy than equivalent volume of BP so at least in my 50-95 I am getting similar velocities as the original BP loaded in balloon head cases. This

[FrankJD]

I can’t really wipe between shots, the bolt is a real pain to remove and is an involved process, and I don’t like sticking a cleaning rod down the muzzle and getting gunk in the action.

Use a patch worm. As long a length of weed wacker line for bbl in question plus another 6-8", blob one end with lighter flame, slip down a cleaning head in the size that appears good for the gun's bore plus a patch, slip down the line 'til it touches the cleaning head a patch that's wet or dry, open the gun's breech and snake down the patch worm line, grab it at the muzzle end and pull it out of the bbl.

Patch worm cleaning heads are a buck each and come in sizes from .22 to 12ga.

http://patchworm.com/accessories.html

[FrankJD]

I find it hard to beat going the paper patched bullet route. The hardest part, which really ain't all that hard, is figuring out a proper slick diameter for a specific gun bbl bore, then what thickness paper to use for the patching. No cartridge OAL since it's a bore rider. No lubes. No bbl leading. Super fast cleanup after a shooting session. You sure can add in a grease cookie if need be, but wiping for fouling control will be easier and make for a faster and less complicated cartridge build.

[FrankJD]

Another consideration about chamber fouling might be about the cartridge build. Is the brass of proper spec size/length and annealed? If it's properly annealed it should be soft enough to seal at the chamber throat after detonation. If it's not sealing properly, you'll see the outside of a just fired case have some bp soot on it. If the seal is good and chamber fouling is still an issue, then it's all about fouling control and/or a cleaner burning bp such as Swiss.

[fgd135]

If you use grease cookies in bottlenecked cases, be sure that the cookie does not sit below the case neck, in the shoulder area--the cookie, expanded into the neck area when the bullet is seated, hits the neck and can cause circumferential splitting. With less than case capacity BP loads, use dacron or foam backer rod to fill the case above the powder to the neck, and place the cookie over that.
BTW, Russian BII cartridge grease cookies were of a "tallow cup" design; a shallow waxed paper cup containing the lube was inserted into the case in order to prevent contamination of the BP with lube leaking out and around the shoulder area just below it.

[FrankJD]

Pardon my ignorance about this Vetterli rifle and cartridge - the original is a bottle neck rimfire that was changed to centerfire, correct? What centerfire brass is being used now?

Other than that, and judging by a few images of a Vetterli cartridge, there ain't much of a neck down to best accommodate both grease cookie and a bullet but should be okay with a cookie and a patched slick? Images I've seen of these vintage cartridges are using PPBs sticking fairly proud of the case mouth, which yields room for a wad or cookie.

[indian joe]

First priority - get rid of the red lube - horrible stuff to use with blackpowder - result you describe (or worse) is absolutely the expected outcome
you might also benefit from annealing case mouth/neck ----but definitely ditch that lube! any mix you make with beeswax and a natural oil/fat/grease will be far superior.

[indian joe]

what did you use for brass ? I think I read 348 winchester is converted for the 41 Swiss ? If that is the case then double emphasis on the annealing - 348 brass is tough and Winchester extra tough, it hardens quickly in sizing / reforming - anneal the necks so they seal the chamber and keep soot and crud from blowing back down the sides of the case - that and decent BP lube might sort this easier than you think.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Something else that might be a contributing factor, the original 10.4x38R cartridge uses a heeled bullet. There are proper molds available to replicate the original load. I believe the military loading has a mild hollow base also. I intend to go the paper patched route with mine but also to exactly duplicate the military load. I have one old commercial rimfire cartridge but don't have the heart to pull it apart for examination. I luckily sourced a spare bolt for mine for centerfire conversion as to not touch the numbers matching original. I need to get more 8mm Lebel brass for conversion but also working on 32ga. Shotshell brass conversion.

[Dhall_37]

Wow, just wow. You guys have been super helpful I don’t think I’m able to respond to all of y’all so I’ll address y’all here. So my brass is 10.4x42 formed from 8mm lebel, I have quite of neck with the longer brass. The rifle was converted CF buy the best of the best, Norm Sutton. I’ll get a swaging die set soon from NOE and will try the paper patch route, as for the grease cookies I’ll try and put less of it in the case to prevent it from squishing out, I’ll also make sure to place a wad on top of the cookie.

You guys are way smarter than me, I’ll give updates soon, I don’t shoot the rifle much as it’s a pain to clean and take to the range because it so long.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Proper lube. Pity you can’t wipe between shots.

KW

[FrankJD]

He can easily wipe between shots using a patchworm.

[indian joe]

If the bore is ok he should be able to get decent accuracy with a grease groove boolit and a blow tube .....BUT..... starting with bought boolits and red (smokeless) lube is a major handicap to making the first step on a longish learning curve - its gonna take some time

[Dhall_37]

I definitely need to get a casting area set up! I'll be looking into that soon.

[indian joe]

I am feeling kind of left out here - there's a bucket load of "problems" on this thread and over 20 years of loading blackpowder cartridges it seems I missed out on all the fun - its been pretty straight sailing. My son had some hard barrel fouling in a 44/40 when we tried some bought boolits with RED LUBE on em - that was easy fixed - sold em off to a smokeless shooter and bought a mold. Later a problem with a spencer in 45 colt smoking the outside of the case - again easy fixed by annealing the cases.
Never loaded for anything like the vetterli either - stuck to straight forward cowboy guns.
three things
1) LUBE - proper blackpowder lube that keeps the fouling soft in the bore and plenty of it to do the job
2) BOOLIT good fit of boolit to bore and soft rather than hard
3) BRASS that fits the chamber

If ya cant chamber a following round after firing the gun then one, some, or all of these are in need of attention

[Edward]

What Indian Joe said , spot on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/Ed