Newbie needs some guidance on little things...

[ColdasJones]

Hello all,

New here coming from the subreddit. I have a short list of questions that Ive had a difficult time getting solid consistent answers on. Thought I'd throw em here, and hope that they can help others in my shoes as well. Im hoping to load for 45-70: primarily heavy grain subsonics (500-550gr, maybe 600s if I can get some load data thats safe) but id like to eventually load supersonic hunting loads for bear, elk, and smaller.


1. what hardness is acceptable for subsonic velocities not exceeding 1050fps? Whats my best source for lead alloy to get me to that hardness or higher?

2. Do i need gas checks if im powder coating? worried what a separated check would do to suppressor baffles. If i eventually want to start loading supersonic hunting loads will I need them if PCing?

3. will i be good enough off with a cheap lee mould or should I jump to NOE moulds or something right off the bat? what are reccomended moulds/profiles?

4. I plan on slugging the barrel once I get my hands on it, and buying a Lee sizer. what sizer size do i buy based on what my slugging values give me? kinda confused on this whole "bullet larger than bore" type stuff.

5. round nose vs flat nose vs hollow point moulds? Im leaning towards HP bullets as this will be a bear gun for my property in the mountains, but i can imagine theres extra casting steps for that?

Thanks for the help!

[johnsonian09]

To answer

2) powder coat is fine up to about 2000fps. I have never gas checked anything and have had good success so far. Depending on your specific rifle? Ymmv.

3) I’ve used mp, noe, lee and arsenal molds. So far the best casting ones to me are brass MP molds. My noe molds are aluminum 6 cavity and are finicky. Some days I give up entirely and wait for a new day. Some days they are fine. My lees are both 2 cavity aluminum and fill out well, but are more prone to misalign then the others. I throw back about 1 out of 7 casts due to misalignment and large parting lines.

5) balance hardness/velocity/ boolit design to effect your quarry the best.

On deer I used a huge mp hammer Hp in 357 with my softer lead I got huge expansions and still pass through.

If I was using that same alloy to hunt bear I’d use the same load/boolit but with the flat nose variant. To penetrate deeper. The bigger the beast the more penetration becomes a factor over how much of the muzzle energy you can shock into it. Same way you would select a j-word bullet. Just no fancy jacket to control fragmentation/ expansion.


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[Retumbo]

This should help

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/hardness-number-brinnell1.jpg

[ColdasJones]

Thanks for the chart, sure does!

[ColdasJones]

Appreciate the tips! ill take a look at mp, hadnt heard of those yet.

[ryanmattes]

Good advice so far.

On molds, a lot of it is mold specific, and personal.preference. I have cheap Lee molds that drop great bullets, but I also have Lee molds I can barely get any usable bullets from. I also have iron Lyman and RCBS molds and brass molds from NOE and MP, and they're all good.

Some general rules:

Brass holds heat better than aluminum, and iron holds heat better than brass. How sensitive a mold is to temperature variations is directly related to how well they hold heat; aluminum can be fidgety, iron will drop great bullets through small variations once it's up to temp.

How long it takes to get a mold up to casting temp is also directly related, but the other way around; aluminum gets up to temp fast, iron takes its sweet time.

You can clean an iron mold with a brass brush, but you have to be more careful with brass, and even *more* careful with aluminum (nothing harder than a toothbrush).

I LOVE my NOE and MP brass molds. MP makes some of the best hollow point molds I've seen. It's a bit more effort to make HP because the mold is heavier, and you have to flip the mold over to release them, but it's worth it if you want HPs. Not significantly more effort the same mold with no HP.

With Lee molds, I'll usually buy the cheap 2-cavity first, to cast some test rounds. Then, if I like it and I want to make a bunch, I'll buy a 6-cav to mass produce. Worst case they suck, and you're only out $25.

Ryan

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[Land Owner]

Switch your #3 and #4 (if that is a priority list). Boolit fit to bore is King. Generally, boolits 0.001" to 0.002" over bore diameter give better accuracy (other variables powder, primer, case prep, etc., considered). Slug the barrel then buy the right size mold(s).

Getting started, try inexpensive, but effective equipment (molds), and work yourself into expensive equipment as your hands-on experience increases. You can make excellent quality boolits with inexpensive equipment. We all do.

[ColdasJones]

So I guess another general question: If i plan on powder coating and never really plan on running exposed lead and lube, should I seek out molds without the lube grooves? Or does it matter really? I figure the same grain projectile, the non-grooved projectile will be shorter overall and leave more case capacity? useful?

[ryanmattes]

Generally that's not how they do the NLG molds. For a given profile, the NLG will be heavier, because they've simply cut out the lube groove material. Otherwise you're talking about a different bullet design.

Personally, I use the regular molds with lube grooves, because they're time-tested profiles with known load data that works, and the lube groove doesn't hurt anything.

Plus, for older cartridges like 45 Colt it leaves me the option to use bare lead and lube if I decide to.

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[lar45]

What gun are you going to be loading for? That will determine your top end loads.
Look at www.hodgdonreloading.com for published load data.

[bimus]

Loading a 530 grain cast bullet in my Ruger # 3 once I get over 1350 FPS the bullet is not as stable as 1300 FPS even at 1300 FPS it has went through two Elk front to back and the bullet was not recovered either time . Through the years 45-70 has been a great cartridge to reload for I thought it needed more speed when it did not .

[Half Dog]

If you can share your location perhaps a local member will be willing to show his methods and ideas.

[GhostHawk]

IMO nothing wrong with Lee but get the 6 cavity molds. They are built better and bullets rain from them.

I prefer a mix of roughly 50% Clip on Wheel Weights and 50% range scrap. (mostly soft lead, might have some tin or antimony in it)

I like to add 1% tin (Pewter) for pistol and 2% for faster rifle boolits.

Don't bother with HP, a good flat nose of fairly soft alloy will expand well. With less likely hood of breaking up. Called "Meplat" too small = better penitration but less expansion. Bigger = better expansion but at the cost of somewhat lowered penetration. But with .45-70 and large bullets your not going to have a penetration problem. Most likely to see through and through's unless you hit a heavy bone. And that heavy bone hit is likely to anchor an animal.

Generally speaking below 1400 fps you can be pretty soft and not use gas checks.
If your going much over that I would use better alloy, gas checks, possibly Powder coat.

Best of luck to ya!

[ColdasJones]

Ill be loading for a Marlin 1895, 16" barrel. Commonly assumed that max chamber pressure is 43000psi

[ColdasJones]

What gun are you going to be loading for? That will determine your top end loads.
Look at www.hodgdonreloading.com for published load data.

marlin 1895, 16" barrel. Using 43000 as my absolute max psi in my Gordons reloading tool tests.



If you can share your location perhaps a local member will be willing to show his methods and ideas.
Located in Phoenix AZ area.

IMO nothing wrong with Lee but get the 6 cavity molds. They are built better and bullets rain from them.

I prefer a mix of roughly 50% Clip on Wheel Weights and 50% range scrap. (mostly soft lead, might have some tin or antimony in it)

I like to add 1% tin (Pewter) for pistol and 2% for faster rifle boolits.

Don't bother with HP, a good flat nose of fairly soft alloy will expand well. With less likely hood of breaking up. Called "Meplat" too small = better penitration but less expansion. Bigger = better expansion but at the cost of somewhat lowered penetration. But with .45-70 and large bullets your not going to have a penetration problem. Most likely to see through and through's unless you hit a heavy bone. And that heavy bone hit is likely to anchor an animal.

Generally speaking below 1400 fps you can be pretty soft and not use gas checks.
If your going much over that I would use better alloy, gas checks, possibly Powder coat.

Best of luck to ya!
Thanks for the insight. If i want to lob some 550gr at 1050 or less, as well as load some 350-405gr hunting loads at higher velocities? whats my best bet for premade alloys? wanna start with something clean, then get into salvaging and alloying my own lead after. I feel like #2 or hardball is overkill for subsonics... i see rotometals has a 2-3% antimony for 2.70/lb. Can I use that, or should I buy some tin and throw it in too?

[oley55]

So I guess another general question: If i plan on powder coating and never really plan on running exposed lead and lube, should I seek out molds without the lube grooves? Or does it matter really? I figure the same grain projectile, the non-grooved projectile will be shorter overall and leave more case capacity? useful?

when you size your bullets the lead has to flow somewhere. grooved boolits provide a handy place for the displaced lead. I erred and went with an MP non-grooved. It works but pretty sure grooved would be easier to size and probably wouldn’t distort the boolit at all.

[sledgehammer001]

For a velocity of 1050fps. 20-1 lead-tin mix should give you a boolit soft enough to expand, but hard enough to fill the bore without leading the barrel. With traditional lube or powder coated. 20-1 should handle 1400fps without issue.

[Larry Gibson]

This should help

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/hardness-number-brinnell1.jpg

There is a severe problem with that chart. The formula for determining the pressure uses a constant based on pure lead. If you shoot pure lead bullets the chart is reasonably valid. However, if you use bullets cast of a binary alloy, a ternary alloy or a quadra alloy with copper in it, particularly if the ternary and quadra alloys are HT'd or WQ'd, the constant is not valid. Thus the chart is not valid. The chart and formula were also developed based on the false assumption that loss of accuracy was/is due to alloy failure at a certain pressure level. The adverse effect of barrel twist/RPM was ignored or not understood when the chart/formula was developed.

As an example, I and numerous others shoot HV cast bullets [ternary alloy] at 2400 - 3000 fps without alloy failure. The bullets have BHNs in the 20 - 25 range and the pressures [measured, not questimated] run in the 45-50,000 psi range. According to the chart the bullets should have failed at 28-36,000 psi. They did not fail.

[Larry Gibson]

ColdasJones

I understand it is "so like last century" to suggest reading a book and "doing one's homework" when instant information is supposed to be available via the internet. What I suggest is you download the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3. Read and study the first half [less the data section] of the handbook. It is probably the best collective source of information which will answer all your questions and will give you a foundation of knowledge to use. The data section, Lyman's current Cast Bullet handbook #4 and other treatise on casting bullets will then make much more sense to you as will many of the answers you've gotten in this thread.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

ColdasJones

I understand it is "so like last century" to suggest reading a book and "doing one's homework" when instant information is supposed to be available via the internet. What I suggest is you download the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3. Read and study the first half [less the data section] of the handbook. It is probably the best collective source of information which will answer all your questions and will give you a foundation of knowledge to use. The data section, Lyman's current Cast Bullet handbook #4 and other treatise on casting bullets will then make much more sense to you as will many of the answers you've gotten in this thread.

This is excellent advice.
You'll be able to answer most of your questions just by reading the first half of the manual. Then you'll have a grasp of what to ask and what specifications need to be provided so others can answer your "advanced" questions.

But, I'll offer you a few quick answers for "If i want to lob some 550gr at 1050 or less".
For a marlin levergun, the alloy doesn't really matter, except softer is better, but you could use 18 Bhn hardball with no problems if you get a mold that drops a large enough boolit. You probably want something like .460" Lee molds tend to drop closer to .457 so that is a reason to swing for a NOE mold, or other brand that'll likely cast that large.

[ColdasJones]

when you size your bullets the lead has to flow somewhere. grooved boolits provide a handy place for the displaced lead. I erred and went with an MP non-grooved. It works but pretty sure grooved would be easier to size and probably wouldn’t distort the boolit at all.
Good to know, would have never thought of that, thanks.

For a velocity of 1050fps. 20-1 lead-tin mix should give you a boolit soft enough to expand, but hard enough to fill the bore without leading the barrel. With traditional lube or powder coated. 20-1 should handle 1400fps without issue.
GLad to hear that i dont need to over-concern myself with hardness... at least when it comes to subs.

ColdasJones

I understand it is "so like last century" to suggest reading a book and "doing one's homework" when instant information is supposed to be available via the internet. What I suggest is you download the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3. Read and study the first half [less the data section] of the handbook. It is probably the best collective source of information which will answer all your questions and will give you a foundation of knowledge to use. The data section, Lyman's current Cast Bullet handbook #4 and other treatise on casting bullets will then make much more sense to you as will many of the answers you've gotten in this thread.
Thanks for the recommendation. Im a pretty young guy, and so Im very accustomed to learning everything about things from online sources only. It wasnt until recently that i "rediscovered" using books and manuals for certain things, where it feels like theres no solid info online.... a great example is that i learned more about woodworking finishes from a book my grandmother gave to me last year than i have in hours and hours of internet research... it seems that online sources all have different opinions, or assume you know/understand certain things. Certain topics are far better for a book, specifically things that have been around for a while.... kinda like woodworking and bullet casting. thanks again!

This is excellent advice.
You'll be able to answer most of your questions just by reading the first half of the manual. Then you'll have a grasp of what to ask and what specifications need to be provided so others can answer your "advanced" questions.

But, I'll offer you a few quick answers for "If i want to lob some 550gr at 1050 or less".
For a marlin levergun, the alloy doesn't really matter, except softer is better, but you could use 18 Bhn hardball with no problems if you get a mold that drops a large enough boolit. You probably want something like .460" Lee molds tend to drop closer to .457 so that is a reason to swing for a NOE mold, or other brand that'll likely cast that large.
good tip. been looking a lot into accurate molds, and man is it overwhelming trying to pick one. think i May start off with a cheap 2 cavity lee mold, get the ropes and then upgrade.

[WRideout]

"think i May start off with a cheap 2 cavity lee mold, get the ropes and then upgrade."

Don't assume that inexpensive is bad. Over half of my mold collection is Lee, for various rifle and pistol calibers. Also, a Lee mold is easily enlarged by a process known as "Beagling" on this forum. If you have the ability to cast boolits on a regular basis, you will probably accumulate a collection of molds for different purposes. The fun is in the experimenting.

Wayne

[Bigslug]

My first instinct on reading your post is that you're looking at far more bullet weight than necessary for what you intend to do. You'll find that these solids cast of alloys a little harder than pure can penetrate A LOT. The 500+ grain subsonics I tend to consider more of a long range target sort of thing. Depending on what you are shooting them out of, they may end up too long for repeaters unless you shove them farther back in the cases which will reduce your charge capacity. Worth remembering are the fact that .45 caliber + 250-ish grains + about 900fps was considered an adequate handgun for ending another man's horse; and the other fact that we don't have an overpopulation of bison today is due to 400-500 grain bullets at only 1200-1400 fps.

A 400-420 grain bullet with a .34" meplat is a wonderfully destructive thing at short range, but the accuracy starts to get a little less certain past about 150 yards. A slightly narrower meplat of .27" (the RCBS 405-FN-gas check is a VERY popular do-all bullet) to about .32" would be a good compromise if you want greater distance.

Gas checks really aren't needed for a .45-70 until you start playing in the "modern action" territory of loads creeping up to 2000 fps. 400 grains at 1600 fps seems to be about the threshold where a Marlin 1895 switches from being pleasant to shoot to killing at both ends.

It's a versatile round with a lot of different ways to load it - you'll get a lot of varied input, I'm sure.