Which boolit will be more accurate?

[Idaho45guy]

Will be interesting to find out.

These are 500 grain spitzer-style and with 65 grains of Goex FFG, were horrible...

299716

Went back to the drawing board tonight and cast 25 each of these molds that my dad gave me and told me to try.

299717

The one on the left is a 520 grain spitzer-style.

299718

The one on the right is a 575 grain.

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Going to load both with 70 grains of Swiss FFG.

[Winger Ed.]

I normally lean towards a spitzer style, However;
It might take some tinkering around, but either one should do real well afterwards.

[GhostHawk]

I put my money on the 575. Could be wrong though.

[Castaway]

How long is the 575 grainer?

[Don McDowell]

In your 45-70 that 520 gr money bullet will out preform that 575 grain bullet, especially considering if your barrel has an 18 twist in it.

[Gunlaker]

I'd definitely expect the same as Don. In all of my .45 cal rifles, nothing has shot as consistently well as the 535gr version of that BACO Money bullet. If I only had one .45 cal black powder mold it'd be the 458535M1. And I have a lot of molds :-)

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

That money bullet will also do much better cast from 16-1.
I suspect aside from the problems already pointed out in the comments on your video, the powder charge with that 65 grains of the Goex was a big factor in your accuracy woes. Jump that charge up to 70 or 72 grains and with a good fouling control regime things will come together much better than your first go round.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Anyone that thinks the 575 gr bullet is better, well obviously they have zero long range experience. There are too many past keyboard commandos on this forum, the 520 money design with 68 grs of Goex 2F or Swiss 1.5 in a 45-70 is serious. Until you learn how to use proper fouling control methods you can’t really evaluate any loads potential. And you’re basing the load’s inaccuracy, with a lousy wiping regime. Per your video.

KW

[Gunlaker]

I think all of my .45-70's have been happy with a Money bullet and a charge of 68gr Swiss 1.5 or OE 1.5. That's the powder charge I'd start with.

With respect to fouling control, remember, the greater the distance to the target, the more important it gets. You'll know if you've got it wrong when you get unexpected flyers in the middle of a string, or suddenly the shots start to hit lower. Or you make corrections on the sights and something different happens on the target ( that's also what you might see at long range with that 575gr bullet due to instability).

That 520gr Money bullet is a proven silhouette performer, and it'll shoot a fair bit further, but the further you shoot the more important it is to have all of the little details sorted out.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Oh, one more thing. The rifle you are shooting looks like a C. Sharps 1885. How snug is the fit of one of your cast bullets in a fired case? I had a C. Sharps highwall that didn't shoot well until I realized that the inside diameter of a fired case was way bigger than my .458" bullets. You could slip fit a 0.461" bullet into a fired case easily. Dan Theodore designed a larger diameter bullet for me, one that fit the throat better too. That helped a great deal. I know that there is some variation in their chambers as I had one built at a later date and the chamber was as tight as my Shilohs.

I generally like to start with a bullet that is a reasonably close match to the fired case inside diameter.

Chris.

[Idaho45guy]

Oh, one more thing. The rifle you are shooting looks like a C. Sharps 1885. How snug is the fit of one of your cast bullets in a fired case? I had a C. Sharps highwall that didn't shoot well until I realized that the inside diameter of a fired case was way bigger than my .458" bullets. You could slip fit a 0.461" bullet into a fired case easily. Dan Theodore designed a larger diameter bullet for me, one that fit the throat better too. That helped a great deal. I know that there is some variation in their chambers as I had one built at a later date and the chamber was as tight as my Shilohs.

I generally like to start with a bullet that is a reasonably close match to the fired case inside diameter.

Chris.

Rifle is an Uberti high wall and the barrel is one made by JK Cloward. I hear he's pretty good.

[Idaho45guy]

Got my rounds created tonight. Went with 70 grains of Swiss FFg for both boolits.

Also worked on the trigger. When I put on the Creedmoor sights, I didn't fine tune the forward screw length, which affects the trigger function and pull.

I thought the trigger felt a little heavy at the range, so I tested it tonight and it was shockingly high at 7 lbs. Filed the screw a few times until I got the pull down to 3 lbs, then added some Loctite and got everything locked down.

Hopefully that will help things a bit as well.

The match that I was doing all this for got moved up a week to this Saturday. Weather forecast is for rain and 25 mph winds. Plus, I had knee surgery a week ago, so going prone and getting up off the shooting mat will be painful. Decided to skip this month's match and will go to the next one.

[tmanbuckhunter]

I agree the money bullet will shoot much better, at least from an overall length/twist rate wise. There are a lot more factors in BPC accuracy/precision than with smokeless though. Annealing cases, neck tension, alloy, size, wad etc... gotta get all those details down. What wad are you using? Are you annealing? What is your neck tension, if any? Alloy?

[Don McDowell]

The front screw on a tang sight should not affect the trigger pull in any way shape form or fashion.

[Bent Ramrod]

It does on a Highwall. The sear spring is right underneath the front tang sight base screw hole. Varying the spring tension by pressing the spring down with the forward tang screw will increase the trigger pull weight.

Is there any particular reason the OP is picking a single powder weight, loading 50 cartridges, and coming back from the range disappointed? You would be better served loading a sequence of weights, say from 60 to 70 grains, increasing a grain at a time, five cartridges per weight, compressing to the same depth that allows the boolit to touch the rifling, and firing your 50 rounds in five-shot groups with the same powder weight. Somewhere in there should be your optimum.

[Don McDowell]

If the sear spring is set up properly in the first place and the front tang screw is the proper length, neither should ever come in contact with each other. At least that's what Kilby and co at Wyoming armory will tell you.
Sometimes over tightening of the rear tang screw/bolt can cause a bind on the trigger's and give you fits. Per Steve Baldwin...

[Gunlaker]

Don I hadn't heard that about the rear tang screw. Thanks.

I know what Bent Ramrod is saying. That C. Sharps I was talking about had that problem with the too long front screw. I never noticed it to be honest, but the guy I sold the rifle to noticed it right away. Apparently he found marks on the sear spring from the screw, which can't be too good.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

This CSA lowall I had them build has been a pain in the butt. After a lot of conversation with 85 builders I think maybe the kinks are coming out. Will know more about it Friday when the 22 match at Alliance gets done.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah, I like the CSA 1885's quite a bit, but they do vary in quality. Mine are all sorted out except for one, which is a PP .45-90 with Dan Theodore's PP chamber. It shoots well, but has way too much excess headspace. I'd like to get the barrel set back and have it re-chambered but there is no one around here that I trust to do the job. I just modify the rim thickness to solve the headspace problem. I wish they'd have taken more care putting it together.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I have 2 that Pete oversaw the build on for Carol and they are as fine a rifle as could be
This 22 of mine never should of left the shop

[Gunlaker]

Yeah, my .32-40 & .38-55 are really nice. The .38-55 was a surprise, I ordered it with extra fancy wood, which is usually about what Shiloh would call semi-fancy. It came ( no extra charge ) with exhibition grade wood, a silver inlay on the fore end tip, and something I've never ever seen on a CSA highwall, a round receiver ring instead of octagonal like they normally provide.

Is Pete still there? He was the one I dealt with for those two rifles. The one with the excessive headspace was bought before he was there.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

No Pete’s been gone for a few years now


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[Deadeye Bly]

If that 575 grain bullet was 535 or 540 grains it would be more of a toss up. It is probably too long for the twist.

[Idaho45guy]

If that 575 grain bullet was 535 or 540 grains it would be more of a toss up. It is probably too long for the twist.

Good insight. My dad said the 520 "money" boolit will likely be better. Still waiting on the weather to break to find out.

Supposed to be April showers bring May flowers. This year, it was April snow storms bring May rainstorms.

[Idaho45guy]

Finally got a break in the weather and headed out to an outdoor range today. There was construction going on at my normal range, and didn't want to do my dad's range since it was sunny and kept getting blinded from the sun on the targets.

So, headed out to a friend's range. Actually, it's county land and is gated off, but he's got permission to do paintball tournaments there, and to hunt and shoot. He got the OK for me to be there so I have the combination to the gate as well.

It's only a mile out of town and is secluded enough that nobody can see you shooting from the highway.

So, I got there and get set up, and my knee is hurting from just walking to set up the targets and back.

So I shoot the 520's first and run three wet patches through and then a dry patch. Shot three times and get a much improved group of 3 1/4".

Went for a second group and the first two shots are an inch apart. Then I hear a vehicle approach and it's my friend. He and his wife and son have been in quarantine the past week due to having a bad case of Covid. He tells me this is the first time he's left the house and is feeling better but still weak. His son wants to try some new .450 Bushmaster loads.

So, I tell them I'll finish up and get out of their way. I fire the third shot and it opened up the group to 1 7/8". Dang.

I fired one 3-shot group with the 573 grain boolits, but I used a black target, and my front sight disappeared on it. First two were nice and tight at 1 1/4", but the third went high and left and opened it up to 4 1/2".

Really wanted to fire a bunch more groups, but didn't want to hang around with people infected with Covid.

Supposed to be nice tomorrow as well, and my chronograph is supposed to be here, so will try my old gravel pit again.

But, I am much happier with the results. I think the better fouling control, Swiss powder, and heavier boolit all helped quite a bit, as did the much lighter trigger.

300073

300074

[Idaho45guy]

Ended up going back to my dad's since he needed help with something.

Another sunny day and had a heck of a time not being blinded by the targets.

Used my new rangefinder and it said his 100 yard target was actually 110 yards and his 50 yard target was actually 60 yards.

I shot a few more groups, despite there being a 15 mph wind and confirmed that the rifle likes the 520 grain money boolit better. But, the groups were still awful with the smallest ones at 5 1/2" and 6".

520 grain before adjusting for the wind...

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520 grain after dialed in for wind...

300119

My dad looked at the rounds and said to stop using Alox, to use large pistol primers, and to try more ladder loads.

It's frustrating because I know he is losing his mental faculties because last week he said Alox was fine to use and never mentioned using large pistol primers. And he said 70 grains was ideal.

He was a Master class shooter who has competed all over the US and won quite a bit, so I try to defer to his advice, but it seems like it is all over the place these days and changes weekly.

So, will cast up some more 520's, use the DGL lube and pan lube them, and research the large pistol primer thing.

[Gunlaker]

I don't know anyone who uses Alox with BP, but DGL is quite good. That's what I use almost always.

Pistol primers can work quite well, but a primer change won't make the big difference that you need to see. I generally use CCI BR2's with Swiss, and Fed LR Match with Old Eynsford. Pistol primers sometimes, depending on the load. All of my paper patch rifles seem to like pistol primers or Winchester primers for whatever reason. But it's not like you'll go from 6" to 1" groups that way.

Something else is going on that is causing your accuracy problems.

The best way to think about black powder shooting is that you are shooting a soft projectile that is easily deformed during the loading process ( sizing, seating, excess neck tension ), and it'll get deformed in a bad way if the bullet doesn't fit the rifle properly. As soon as the powder charge goes off it is going to more or less instantly bump that bullet up to fit the inside of the case and the throat. If the bullet is not already a good fit, it's almost certain to be off balance before it ever gets to the muzzle. So you need an absolutely perfect bullet getting chambered, and it needs to stay perfect until it's out of the muzzle.

You've got quality powder (Swiss), a quality bullet (Buffalo Arms), good lube ( once you switch to DGL ). And your fouling control sounds better. Lots of people have won matches with that combination. If that's not working, then there is something mechanical going on with the rifle, or the bullet doesn't suit the rifle. Most bullets will shoot pretty good if they are not a sloppy fit in the cartridge case mouth, and if the nose isn't a sloppy fit in the bore.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Sagebrush bullet lube contains alox. If you're using Alox bullet lube intended for smokeless powder then yes you're going to be in for lots of problems.
i would suggest that before you blow thru any more powder, primers and lead, you do a very thorough cleaning in that barrel. The first thing i would suspect that under the carbon fouling you'll find some leading issues. Pure Gum Spirits of Turpentine is an easily attainable and inexpensive thing to use to remove built up leading in the barrel. Wet a 2 1/2 inch flannel patch with it, and push it thru the bore a couple of times with a good brass jag. Then follow with a dry patch , and repeat until the only discoloration on the patch is from the turpentine itself.
Swiss powder has a good reputation, but quite often any given rifle will not pay much attention to all the glowing reports about that powder and spray bullets hither and yon... Primers can make a difference.
After the deep cleaning, and using the DGL lube, then don't change anything but 1 component at a time.
I will add that if you're not casting those money bullets from 16-1 alloy you're not doing yourself any favors.

[indian joe]

yeah get rid of the alox - your blackpowder lubes will work ok with smokeless most of the time but smokeless lube with blackpowder is a problem all of the time .

A simple mix 50/50 beeswax and neatsfoot oil (or olive or whatever non petroleum oil or lard or mutton tallow) will beat the pants off a smokeless powder lube .

me too on the deep clean! get every skerrick of that lube out of the bore as well as check for leading and dont quit till you got it all.

It should be easy to get that combo grouping under 3inches at 100yards without flyers - THEN you start tuning it in

Something basic going haywire here !!!!?

[Chill Wills]

Would you please tell me your dad's name? I am sure I would know him. If you rather PM me, that's fine too. I understand if you don't want to at all....
Michael Rix

[Chill Wills]

Thank you. I hope for many good days ahead.

[tmanbuckhunter]

How much neck tension are you running? What wad, and how thick? I don't know of many 45/70 greaser shooters that are running charges as high as 70grs in a modern case. Most are running charges inbetween 58-67ish grs. I personally have found my best accuracy in two 45/70's at 61-63gr with various different bullets, both like about .001 of neck tension on a partially sized case. I did have a good load with Olde Eynsford 2F at 66grs with a 550gr long bore rider in a 1:18 twist douglas, but I stopped shooting it because it was not kind to me.

[indian joe]

How much neck tension are you running? What wad, and how thick? I don't know of many 45/70 greaser shooters that are running charges as high as 70grs in a modern case. Most are running charges inbetween 58-67ish grs. I personally have found my best accuracy in two 45/70's at 61-63gr with various different bullets, both like about .001 of neck tension on a partially sized case. I did have a good load with Olde Eynsford 2F at 66grs with a 550gr long bore rider in a 1:18 twist douglas, but I stopped shooting it because it was not kind to me.

mine runs 63 grains with a 40 thou wad + 535 grain boolit sized .460 ...... just enough crimp to hold the boolit in