Downloading Magnum Pistol Powder

[justindad]

I once made a light load of 9mm using True Blue powder. My load data was from Gordon’s Reloading Tool, so I wanted to start somewhere safe. My first round rolled out of the slide and landed at my toes. No boolits got stuck in the barrel.
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That was a fast powder, but now I’m looking at Ramshot Enforcer in a .357 Mag. I noticed that the flash hole is always buried in powder, even when shooting down hill. So the powder must be burning from one end to the other, like a cigarette. True Blue does not burry a flash hole, so the primer spark passes along the full length of the cartridge basically lighting all powder at once. Now if I had Enforcer fill about half the case, the primer spark would pass over the powder and it would not burn like a cigarette - kaboom?
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I have an NOE-360-160-WFN mold. The lead WFN, is a tad shorter than the 158 grain jacketed hollow point used in the load manual. I got the length of the bullet from GRT, and calculated a 4% decrease in case fill (~10% less powder over the flash hole. I think this is a safe starting point, but I don’t want to go any lower. I won’t be shooting downhill, so that’ll give me some safety factor, a CCI500 SPP to discourage a long spark, and a light roll crimp.
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What do you guys think? Maybe I just need a Lyman mold for their load data on this one.
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[JimB..]

You’ve looked at the online load data at ramshot.com?

Your concern is if a reduced load of a slower powder will cause a kaboom, and you theorize that this could be caused by the percentage coverage of the flash hole? I think you’re way way way overthinking this. If the manual doesn’t say anything it should be safe at -10%, so adjust for bullet length vs the manual to get the same loaded case capacity as the manual and fire away.

[farmerjim]

Bullseye works great in reduced loads.

[derek45]

win231
unique
universal
HS-6
CFE-P

[justindad]

Is a squib load the only practical risk of undercharging a round?

[JimB..]

Is a squib load the only practical risk of undercharging a round?

With some slow powders there is a belief that things can get squirrelly and maybe kaboom with light charges. The bigger issue I think is a squib followed by a second, third, etc round. The gun may spontaneously disassemble on the second round, or you may stack a bunch of bullets in the barrel, no way to know.

Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier question, as others have noted, much easier to get consistent lower power performance from faster powders than from slow.

[justindad]

Thanks Jim. I have some True Blue for a fast powder that works. This is my first stride into slow powders, and I’m being extra careful in understanding what I am doing since my bullet isn’t a perfect match for anything in my three load manuals.
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Does the use of fillers have any relevance here? I don’t want to add a filler, but I wonder if knowing why fillers are used would help me understand my situation better.

[AlaskaMike]

Fillers tend to be used in larger capacity rifle cases when using fast pistol powders and cast bullets. Not so much in handgun cartridges, although I'm certain that at some point someone has tried it.

If you have the faster powder, then by all means use that for .357 mag loads that are less than full power. Too many people try to take powders out of their intended ranges, instead of choosing a powder that's appropriate (the old 296 vs 2400 debate). There's something to be said for experimentation, but only within limits.

Save your slower magnum powder for full magnum loads, and use the faster powder for the midrange ones.

[justindad]

I read through the fillers sticky and as a result believe the following are true:
1) Fillers hold power against the primer, ensuring consistent ignition.
2) When the powder is not held against the primer, ignition is reduced. It seems that placing powder at an increased distance away from the primer does more to reduce ignition than an increased surface area of powder being exposed to the primer spark could ever increase ignition. So my concern of powder not covering the flash hole was misplaced.
3) Light powder charges won’t lead directly to a KB. However, if you only observe the cartridges with poor ignition, as you work a load up, you could be surprised when you eventually come across a round that experiences full ignition.
4) The faster the powder, the less of variance in ignition there will be resulting from powder position.
5) One person noted never using fillers with powder faster than 2400. Enforcer is about the same as 2400 in burn rate. If Enforcer is relatively fast when considering if a filler will be helpful, then ignition variances will be relatively small.
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Therefore, I do not believe there is a safety hazard with the load & bullet I mentioned in my first post.

[MT Gianni]

Western Handloading Guidel is $4.99 at Hogdon.com. Shipping will run you another $4. Manual is 488 pages and if you shoot Accurate or Ramshot powders you should own it. It was $35 before Hogdon bought Western.

It lists the Hornaday 158 XTP start loads at 12.5 gr, max at 14. gr. Your bullet should be fine at the start loads.

[justindad]

Ramshot has data for the XTP in their free online load manual. I also have the standard Lyman manual and the Lyman cast bullet manual. Manuals do not always agree, and Ramshot data makes me wonder sometimes. I have identified errors in the Lyman manual (starting charge of Enforcer in .357SIG does not fit in the case with bullet) and the Ramshot manual (corrected now, but had a charge of True Blue in .357Mag that was greater for the 158 grain bullet than it was for the 125 grain version). I like to have a very conservative starting point when loading with a bullet that does not exist in any manual.

[reddog81]

I have the NOE 160 WFN and have used load data for a 158 RN. There's basically the same amount of bullet in the case.

I've never heard of anyone do the analysis regarding the amount of powder covering the flash hole. Primers contain little pieces of metal (like Lead styphnate) that ignite and go shooting through the powder column upon ignition. Gun powder covering the the flash hole isn't going to make the difference you think it will. If you shoot a primer only load you will realize quickly that those little suckers are more powerful than you'd think.

[DougGuy]

Looking to reduce loads with slow burning magnum powder will definitely take it outside the intended parameters as specified and tested by the mfgr. Like downloading H110 we all know that is a no no, don't go there. When something DOES go wrong, I mean really wrong, two things are readily apparent.

1, the gun and brass are damaged to the point where trying to reconstruct the chain of events leading to the unintended end results in several schools of speculation but no real factual data from the mangled pieces.

2, if you had stayed within the mfgr's published data, you wouldn't be trying to solve the riddle outlined in number 1.

[GaryM]

There are some who believe a low volume load of a slow powder can lead to kabooms. The theory is when the powder lays flat the primers shoots a spark over the top igniting most of the powder at once instead of burning from one end to the other kinda like a cigarette. I do not know how valid this is but I don't do light loads of slow powders for this reason. Fast powders are fine.

[.429&H110]

Everybody wants a .44 to go KA-BLAMMO!! Makes your fingers bleed and teaches you to flinch. The four powders listed above work very well for plinking, my favorite is Unique because I have some. I have H-110, 240 gr Keith boolits, and primers enough for my retirement. My usual load of H-110 is the Speer starting load. It just goes bang and is more accurate than I am, makes no bloody fingers.

Of course I had to try downloading H-110 before I found this forum, found that 10% under book minimum left unburned powder. One theory of SEE is this unburned powder might burn later, no more fingers. That's why I looked it up, and found this forum, where people been there, done that.

On the other paw, IF you wanted to, you can scoop H-110 into mag brass full to the top, pound in a 180 grain j-word, book calls that a "compressed load", and it won't penetrate an old kevlar vest. Probly bounce off a bear. No fun. Makes a great picture in the dark though.

You cannot double charge H-110, it won't fit.
You can easily double charge Unique, and split any Ruger.

All I know is what I learned here. Is that scary or what?
But the advice all worked out, thank you all.

[justindad]

I have purchased load manuals (standard Lyman and cast Lyman), and free online manuals. I’ve got faster powders for light loads in .357 (True Blue, Unique). I’ve got other guns I can shoot Enforcer through (.44 Mag barrel on a T/C Encore). I recently picked up a Lyman 358439 mold, and the Enforcer load data in the Lyman manuals for the 358429 is directly applicable. I’m still curious about the potential hazards of downloading medium powders used in magnum pistols.
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There seems to be some disagreement on whether or not downloading medium powders in magnum pistol loads truly has the potential to create any hazards. I know a few guys pushing 70 years who have been downloading 296 with 180 grain j-word bullets in .357 cases to 950 fps for decades. That being said, I do not shoot their hand loads for real reasons.
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Are their any real world examples where downloading H110 caused a KB?
Is there any meaningful chance that something else was the root cause in those instances?
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Is there any way to know if a particular powder is unsafe to download?
An absence of such a database would imply the concern is theoretical only. It’s common practice to use starting loads for a heavier bullet j-word bullet when published data is not available for a particular boolit. Perhaps a powder that is commonly compressed is always loaded densely, which would provide resistance to primer particles from bursting though the powder… leading to a cigarette burn - maybe reality does not agree with such a theory.

[justindad]

Food for thought…
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Let’s suppose that the “Ruger only” .45 Colt loads were all that existed, kind of like the cartridge was invented in 1985. I could go to the Ramshot load manual and find the starting load for a 255 grain LSWC with 5744 powder to be 23.8 grains. If I were to then load some rounds with 22 grains of powder, someone might say I was dangerously undercharging the cartridge. However, the 14ksi .45 Colt load data has a starting charge of 17.6 grains with the same powder. So, for the stronger Ruger models, the .45 Colt can actually be loaded anywhere between 17.6 grains and 28.0 grains of 5744 when this 255 grain Laser Cast SWC bullet is used (unless I was absurd and said that since the 14ksi max load is 19.5 grains, it is unsafe to use charges between 19.6 & 23.7 grains).
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Enforcer is not shown in the 14ksi load data, but it is shown in the 30ksi .45 Colt load data. Perhaps this means Enforcer goes wild when there’s too much airspace. Or, maybe it burns too dirty at 14ksi and Ramshot cares about their reputation.
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This Hodgdon burn rate chart shows 5744 as being slower than H110, but it also shows a gap between A4100 & Enforcer so it’s not perfect.
http://www.lasc.us/BurnRatePrint.htm

[414gates]

... the primer spark passes along the full length of the cartridge basically lighting all powder at once. Now if I had Enforcer fill about half the case, the primer spark would pass over the powder and it would not burn like a cigarette - kaboom?

Yes, but not every time.

This is the nature of the problem, it is not predictable. It is best avoided.

The rule of thumb is do not reduce loads with fast burning ball or flake powders in pistols.

The Glock smile from 10mm is a pre-cursor to a kaboom, when there is too little fast burning powder in the case, spiking the pressure. Full power factory loads don't smile. Commercial reloads exhibit the problem, and I don't consider them factory ammo.

Allways load to the powder quantity in the book, and not only should you avoid exceeding the charge, you should absolutely never load below the minimum that the book says.

Everyone remains free to do exactly as they please, this is just advice.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Slow burning powders (relative to application, not just ball but also stick) should not be reduced.

I learned this from manuals, and repeated the lesson on a personal basis in load development of wildcats.

I had a problem once in both handgun and rifle rounds w/ too small of charge of "slow" powder, and believe that I have seen a clue as to what actually happens w/ reduced loads of slow powder and resulting possibility of overpressure rounds.
500 Linebaugh Long (aka 500 Maximum or 500 Super Mag) I had a load of WC680 behind a 435 gr bullet that when the trigger was pulled the gun went 'click' and the cylinder was tied up. Home from range, dowel was inserted into barrel, bullet tapped back into case, round was removed, bullet pulled. A large lump of powder (~50% of loaded charge) was found packed/partially fused in a ball just behind bullet. Powder was not compressed to begin with.
6mm on a 280 Rem Improved case during fireforming I had a load of H4831 behind a 80 gr bullet (just above start charge on 240 Weatherby, recommended by "expert" as being appropriate data for close cousin 6mm-06) that, when the trigger was pulled, the gun went 'click' and about a minute later the round was extracted and the only noticeable change was an indented primer. Went home and pulled the bullet carefully on a press w/ pliers. Powder had to be removed from case neck w/ a pick as it was jammed extremely tight in case neck. Powder at base of case was straw colored (no longer grey-black) and "scorched" looking.

I believe that one of the mechanisms for an"explosion effect" to happen is to have the primer firing drive the bullet into the lands, and then have the powder fully ignite after a barrel obstruction has occurred and some amount of powder being partially lit and left "smoldering", OR for the powder partially ignites and the bullet fails to move and powder gets packed into the case neck or perhaps the bullet moves into the leade where pressure required to move the bullet rises from rifling engagement, and then the powder completes ignition and the pressure rises rapidly to dangerous levels.

The Germans apparently also found out ~100 years ago that improper powder selection can create a "standing wave" due to pressure reflection, and a concentrated "ring" of pressure can be created that is far above the bulk gas pressure in the combustion chamber (case) and/or above the pressure at the measuring point (crusher anvil).

Reduced loading w/ slow powders can create unexpected hazard that can not be measured w/ hobbyist tools, and may be beyond the ability of a moderately experienced user to predict.

1000 times success of a theory proves nothing in testing, but one failure does prove the failure of a theory in testing. I spent >20 years in test engineering, and this is an often repeated truism.

[justindad]

…Powder had to be removed from case neck w/ a pick as it was jammed extremely tight in case neck. Powder at base of case was straw colored (no longer grey-black) and "scorched" looking.


Did the powder in the neck show any signs of being scorched or burnt to any degree?

[Messy bear]

In post 16-
Some are better at downloading. The ones with less deterrent will ignite easier. Number 9 is better than enforcer in this regulars
If you down load, try to use powder with less deterrent, use bullet with more shank, use as hot a primer as possible, and make sure to have good neck tension. May have to experiment with different size dies.
Then use a chronograph and test 5- or better yet 10 and look for extreme spread of 100 FPS or less.

[uscra112]

I believe that one of the mechanisms for an"explosion effect" to happen is to have the primer firing drive the bullet into the lands, and then have the powder fully ignite after a barrel obstruction has occurred and some amount of powder being partially lit and left "smoldering", OR for the powder partially ignites and the bullet fails to move and powder gets packed into the case neck or perhaps the bullet moves into the leade where pressure required to move the bullet rises from rifling engagement, and then the powder completes ignition and the pressure rises rapidly to dangerous levels.

^^ This is correct, and has been reproduced in a lab, albeit with a 6.5mm rifle cartridge.

The idea that smokeless powder can detonate is purest hogwash. The chemistry is all wrong. Blowups of light loads in revolvers are double charges, no question. Nobody likes to admit they screwed up, so it gets blamed on something - anything - else.

Finally, we shooters of old single shot rifles use light loads of magnum pistol powders routinely, at load densities of 50% and under. Blue Dot, 4100, 4227, for example. One my pet AA#9 loads for the .25-20 Stevens is just over 40% load density, and it shoots just fine. We don't crimp our bullets at all, btw.