Seating Die Advice Needed

[tangsight]

My 45-70 blackpowder handloads for a 74 Sharps suffer from excessive runout. So I upgraded to a Redding micrometer adjustable competition bullet seating die for 45-70 U.S Gov't, part number 55209). The die body is stamped just above the threads with "Redding 45-70 Govt Comp ST Q". There's a picture of what I have on page 69 of Robert Ballowe's book, "Preparation of Match Ammunition for Black Powder Cartridge Rifles", my primary source document.

The instructions that came with the die, which are for a "competition handgun bullet seating die", confused me. I succeeded in crushing the neck of an empty test case, so I went looking for a "How To Use" video on Youtube, and came up empty. Called the Redding Tech Help line, and, per their request, sent them a picture of what I had destroyed, but I haven't heard back from them (It's only been a week).

I wonder how this instrument works? I don't see how I can seat a 1.322" boolit 0.54" deep in a 2.152" case after I have mounted the die body such that it contacts the shell holder when the press is fully raised. Also, some of the threads here at Castboolits leave me with the impression that these dies are designed to seat jacketed bullets, which are designed to be bore diameter, not groove diameter like a cast boolit?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[M-Tecs]

Both jacketed and cast are sized for groove diameter. In the case of cast the bullets are generally sized to the throat or at least a .001 or .002 over groove diameter. Both should work fine in your die.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/images/stories/PDFfiles/seaterquickstart.pdf#:~:text=Competition%20Bullet% 20Seating%20Die%20Quick%20Start%20Set-up%201%29,cartridge%20name%29%20compresses%20fully %20into%20the%20die%20body.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/168-working-with-your-competition-seating-die

[indian joe]

Both jacketed and cast are sized for groove diameter. In the case of cast the bullets are generally sized to the throat or at least a .001 or .002 over groove diameter. Both should work fine in your die.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/images/stories/PDFfiles/seaterquickstart.pdf#:~:text=Competition%20Bullet% 20Seating%20Die%20Quick%20Start%20Set-up%201%29,cartridge%20name%29%20compresses%20fully %20into%20the%20die%20body.

Just an old codger from the bush here - read their instructions - studied the diagram - none the wiser as to how this is going to have any useful effect on runout in your blackpowder reloads?

should get you precise seating depth (until some excess lube grease gets mixed up in the works)

excess runout is more likely to have its cause in excess necksizing and re expanding of the brass

Will your rifle rechamber a fired case ? (it should)
some of the gurus will cut an orientation notch in the rim so it always loads in the chamber the same way up
try that
then try loading some fired cases without using a resize die at all - (if they will chamber)

[Winger Ed.]

I have mounted the die body such that it contacts the shell holder when the press is fully raised.

My first guess is that's your problem, at least one of them assuming you have all equal case lengths,
and a nice, minimal case flare so boolits will start into the case facing straight up.

You may know all this already, but here's how I approach seating and crimping on separate steps.

Raise the ram with a empty case.
Screw the die down until it touches the mouth of the case.
Back the die out a 1/8th or 1/4 turn and lock it down.

Back the seating stem way up.
Put a charged case in with a boolit on it.
Raise the ram, and start screwing the seating stem down until it hits the boolit.
Lower the ram, lower the stem (a little at a time when you get close)
until it seats the boolit where you want it to, then lock it down.

Double check a few to be sure the seating is right before you go into mass production.

For crimping:
Raise up the seating stem, then lower the die body down a little at a time until the crimp is right, but not bulged.
Lock the die back down and crimp 'em.

[Gunlaker]

I use the Redding Competition Seater for .45-70 black powder rifles quite often. There is no need to run the die deep enough to touch the shell holder. Thread the die in only as deeply as necessary. I start with the micrometer stem at 0.2". Then I thread the die downward until it's deep enough to start the bullet into the case and get it to within 0.1" or so of desired seating depth. Then I use the micrometer adjustment to get the seating depth perfect.

The die is pretty decent but if you are using a Shiloh, the Shiloh inline seater will produce less runout generally.

Chris.

[country gent]

My first thought is that the expander may be on the small size for your bullets, creating the need for more force to seat. In the big single shots there is no real need for heavy neck tension or crimps.

With true Black Powder loads that are compressed and no air space most use a neck tension that allows the bullet to be hand seated.

concentric ammo is a combination of each step in the loading process. sized case that isnt straight ( banana shaped) isnt going to be concentric when loaded. An expanded belled case that the expander pulls to one side also isnt going to be concentric when loaded. Loaded round run out starts with the sizing die and continues thru the process.

[tangsight]

Thanks to all for the helpful replies. My responses to them will be in the order they have arrived so far.

M-Tecs:Thank you for the two links. Unfortunately, both of them refer to a sliding sleeve, which my die does not have. Good of you to clarify the diff between cast and jacketed, though. A relief to hear it.

Indian Joe: 1) I anneal each case after each shot, then full length re-size, expand the necks, and slightly bell the mouths. I hope the annealing process mitigates overworking the brass. 2) Yes, my rifle will rechamber a fired case, before and after I re-work it. 3) I do not cut an orientation notch, I index by orienting the headstamp. Same same. 4) I will try reloading some fired cases without resizing, and see what happens. The process I describe in #1 above is what the Ballowe book recommends.

Winger Ed: The process you describe is the way I was taught. The RCBS seating die I have been using has a seating stem with threads, but not so the Redding. The Redding stem is held in place with a spring. And, right or wrong, I don't crimp my cases. My justification for that is I am going for light neck tension.

Gunlaker: 1) I suspected it might be OK to mount the die body higher than normal, but it is nonetheless a relief to see someone else write it down. This will allow me to incorporate the Redding die with a minimum of distress. I haven't looked at the Shiloh inline seater (73 years old and not the most computer literate), but I certainly shall.

Country Gent: I had fair success a few years ago with boolits that were a slip fit. Perhaps I need to re-examine that concept.

[indian joe]

Thanks to all for the helpful replies. My responses to them will be in the order they have arrived so far.

M-Tecs:Thank you for the two links. Unfortunately, both of them refer to a sliding sleeve, which my die does not have. Good of you to clarify the diff between cast and jacketed, though. A relief to hear it.

Indian Joe: 1) I anneal each case after each shot, then full length re-size, expand the necks, and slightly bell the mouths. I hope the annealing process mitigates overworking the brass. 2) Yes, my rifle will rechamber a fired case, before and after I re-work it. 3) I do not cut an orientation notch, I index by orienting the headstamp. Same same. 4) I will try reloading some fired cases without resizing, and see what happens. The process I describe in #1 above is what the Ballowe book recommends.

I view use of a sizing die as something to be avoided as much as possible - only use it when a case will no longer chamber - that varies with loads and calibre of course - a 30/30 or 348w running smokeless - it was every shot - my 45/75 running blackpowder I do not resize the necks - and made a body die that just kisses the swelled part of the case in front of the solid head (about every six reloads - but still just a touch until the case chambers ok) - Everybody will do this different - my pet peeve is that commercial dies being a one size fits all deal are way harsh particularly in the neck size/resize part of the operation.

Winger Ed: The process you describe is the way I was taught. The RCBS seating die I have been using has a seating stem with threads, but not so the Redding. The Redding stem is held in place with a spring. And, right or wrong, I don't crimp my cases. My justification for that is I am going for light neck tension.

Gunlaker: 1) I suspected it might be OK to mount the die body higher than normal, but it is nonetheless a relief to see someone else write it down. This will allow me to incorporate the Redding die with a minimum of distress. I haven't looked at the Shiloh inline seater (73 years old and not the most computer literate), but I certainly shall.

Country Gent: I had fair success a few years ago with boolits that were a slip fit. Perhaps I need to re-examine that concept.
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