Part 2, Is Black Powder Hard on Guns?

[Castaway]

In my previous post I described how I’d had problems with a pair Uberti El Patron’s in 45 Colt. The first was sent back to the Benelli repair facility because the point of impact was 10” off at 35 feet. When received, the armorer called me stating the pistol exhibited the worst case of gas cutting he’d ever seen and asked the type of loads I’d shot through it. I replied 2 boxes of “Cowboy” loads and the rest were black powder. Uberti/ Benelli sent me a replacement in 2018. Back in March of this year, I sent that replacement pistol back because the recoil plate was peened from the primer and consequently the cylinder required hand turning because the primer would flow into the recess and bind. The Benelli armorer called today and didn’t leave a message so I called Customer Service. The lady couldn’t connect me with the individual that called, but read his analysis. He stated the problem was caused by firing high pressure loads, but to their credit were replacing this pistol also. I thanked her profusely and then reminded the lady of our previous call that I’d never fired anything but black powder through it and I suspected a metallurgy problem. Surprisingly, she said they were imported and not made by Benelli and couldn’t do anything about that. Bottom line, I’m getting a new pistol but it’s on back order. I wish the armorer would contact me as I’d like to let him know only black powder loads had ever been used and I’m also sure there’s a method to report systemic problems back to Uberti.

[414gates]

I once looked down the bore of a competition black powder rifle that set the 500 meter record here. I forget the actual round count, but it was a few tens of thousands. Picture below.

Your issue is not black powder, it's manufacturing quality control.

https:///ysterhout.net/images/mike-neumann/bore.jpg

[Dave T]

I once looked down the bore of a competition black powder rifle that set the 500 meter record here. I forget the actual round count, but it was a few tens of thousands. Picture below.

Your issue is not black powder, it's manufacturing quality control.

https:///ysterhout.net/images/mike-neumann/bore.jpg

414gates has struck the nail upon the flat part!

Dave

[45-110]

Had a new .45 Ruger Bisley a few years ago that would not hit target at 25 yds. Could easily see that the barrel was not co axial with frame/cylinder centerline. Ruger did fix it by sending a new gun. Shoots like a dream now.
kw

[Gunlaker]

I'd sell that off that replacement gun and buy another brand. I'd also check with the cowboy action crowd to get their thoughts. I'm sure some of them have put thousands of rounds of BP down a revolver. I didn't shoot BP a whole lot when I owned a couple of Ruger Vaqueros, but they functioned well, other than getting the cylinder tied up with fouling sometimes.

I do shoot a lot of BP in Sharps and other single shot rifles. I've burned quite a few cases of BP in my rifles and they still work great, just like the day they were made.

Chris.

[centershot]

Compared to smokeless powder, black powder pressures are very low. Think about it, you would fire BP loads in a fine Damascus-barreled SxS, but not smokeless loads, right? Yes, I know some people fire smokeless in Damascus barrels but if you do, you do so at your own risk. The only part of shooting BP that is hazardous to your gun is not thoroughly cleaning it when done shooting!

[Winger Ed.]

I've always thought if you didn't clean them, there'd could be some left over sulfur molecules in the bore that could react with
the humidity in the air to make acid molecules that would chew on it.

[indian joe]

In my previous post I described how I’d had problems with a pair Uberti El Patron’s in 45 Colt. The first was sent back to the Benelli repair facility because the point of impact was 10” off at 35 feet. When received, the armorer called me stating the pistol exhibited the worst case of gas cutting he’d ever seen and asked the type of loads I’d shot through it. I replied 2 boxes of “Cowboy” loads and the rest were black powder. Uberti/ Benelli sent me a replacement in 2018. Back in March of this year, I sent that replacement pistol back because the recoil plate was peened from the primer and consequently the cylinder required hand turning because the primer would flow into the recess and bind. The Benelli armorer called today and didn’t leave a message so I called Customer Service. The lady couldn’t connect me with the individual that called, but read his analysis. He stated the problem was caused by firing high pressure loads, but to their credit were replacing this pistol also. I thanked her profusely and then reminded the lady of our previous call that I’d never fired anything but black powder through it and I suspected a metallurgy problem. Surprisingly, she said they were imported and not made by Benelli and couldn’t do anything about that. Bottom line, I’m getting a new pistol but it’s on back order. I wish the armorer would contact me as I’d like to let him know only black powder loads had ever been used and I’m also sure there’s a method to report systemic problems back to Uberti.

We currently have four blackpowder cap guns - from simple observation I would say gas cutting of the cylinder pin is a fact of life with these guns - how that compares to a smokeless revolver I have no idea. All four guns have some miles on them, all have a clearly defined gas cut groove on the top of the cylinder pin, no noticeable signs of erosion across the face of the cylinder, nor the barrel face. They all came to us well used (made between 1978 and 1992) Since we had them we have kept the cylinder gap under 6 thou - I bet excess cylinder gap hastens the erosion / cutting on the pin. Other than that issue I dont believe black powder is hard on guns (the opposite I reckon)

I tattooed myself once trying to shoot an army colt two handed off a rest, got my lefty up alongside the cylinder gap - three little black spots of BP residue embedded just under the skin from about 4 inches distance - took a month or so for them to disappear - after doing something like that (dumb for sure) not hard to figure out whats going on here.

[Thundermaker]

Well, this is disappointing. I wonder if the pietta guns are any better.

[1Hawkeye]

It's not your ammo it uberti's soft steel. Most of the Italian stuff looks good but they don't temper steel like they should. Benelli's just like any of the Italian manufacturers and won't admit to the fact.

[indian joe]

Well, this is disappointing. I wonder if the pietta guns are any better.

Does anyone have a 44 mag thats fired a lot of heavy loads (better than 10,000) ? be interesting to see that - (as a comparison)

if this erosion of the cylinder pin bothers you - could always modify the gun ? put a thin bush in the front of the cylinder spindle hole to take the blast -- I dont think its gonna cut the pin in half or anything drastic and first bit will be/look the worst - once it gets a 1/16th in theres way more metal to displace - storm in a teacup I reckon - give the thing a good tuneup and go to work - I bet somethin else breaks (or wears out) first.

[martinibelgian]

I've always thought if you didn't clean them, there'd could be some left over sulfur molecules in the bore that could react with
the humidity in the air to make acid molecules that would chew on it.

Well, your thinking is wrong: no sulphuric acid anywhere with either BP or BP fouling. In actual fact, BP fouling is alkaline, not acid. And it takes more to make sulphuric acid than adding water to sulphur...

[indian joe]

Well, your thinking is wrong: no sulphuric acid anywhere with either BP or BP fouling. In actual fact, BP fouling is alkaline, not acid. And it takes more to make sulphuric acid than adding water to sulphur...

I've always thought if you didn't clean them, there'd could be some left over sulfur molecules in the bore that could react with
the humidity in the air to make acid molecules that would chew on it.

hes got the right idea - wrong chemistry - a lot of people dont realise that a strong alkali will "chew on things" just as viciously as a strong acid - leave your BP shooter uncleaned and the residue will react with humidity in the air and initiate a rusting process that will end its useful life if left.
Acids and alkalis do their work differently alkali to eat up protein, body parts etc acid prefers organic plant material - spill battery acid down your clothes - a woollen jumper will survive ok but next wash your favourite blue jeans are full of holes. I learnt this stuff as part of my work in wool processing many years ago - its always amused me when in the movies the bad guy puts the body in an acid bath to get rid of it - NO - caustic soda or caustic potash will do the job several times fasten than any acid. We used caustic potash to digest fish carcases for fertiliser, when its done you carefully neutralise the solution with phosphoric acid till it tests neutral pH - bingo you have a liquid fish fertiliser with a good balance of N,P,K and trace elements.

[john.k]

The corrosive effect of black powder fouling is caused by moisture (water) take up by the remaining potassium salts in the fouling.....in technical terms ,the salt is hygroscopic...........in the case of subs like Py dex.....the residue is actual chloride ,which is a notably hygroscopic and also a highly corrosive salt.

[Thundermaker]

Does anyone have a 44 mag thats fired a lot of heavy loads (better than 10,000) ? be interesting to see that - (as a comparison)

if this erosion of the cylinder pin bothers you - could always modify the gun ? put a thin bush in the front of the cylinder spindle hole to take the blast -- I dont think its gonna cut the pin in half or anything drastic and first bit will be/look the worst - once it gets a 1/16th in theres way more metal to displace - storm in a teacup I reckon - give the thing a good tuneup and go to work - I bet somethin else breaks (or wears out) first.

Erosion on the pin isn't and issue. It's peening of the recoil shield.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

I have a Ruger Bisley that I have shot thousands of Ruger/Contender only 30,000cup 45 Colt loads in. Two loads, 250gr bullets with H110 and 300gr bullets with Lil'Gun. The revolver is still tight, accurate and has no signs of gas cutting. I think that you have a soft metal problem, not a harsh powder problem.

[414gates]

Uberti makes nice looking, functional replica firearms, which you put in a glass case and admire.

[Castaway]

Davidmagnum, I know what you’re talking about. I have a Black Hawk in 45 Colt that’s had its share of spicy loads without any problem. As I stated, I'm convinced Uberti has a metallurgy issue give the history I’ve had with two pistols. The first with 100 rounds of mild smokeless loads (6.8 Unique and 255 RNFP) and probably 1,200 rounds of black powder. The second only had 1,200 - 1,500 black powder shot through it. To their credit, they’re replacing the second pistol also but I wish they’d acknowledge their problem.

[indian joe]

Erosion on the pin isn't and issue. It's peening of the recoil shield.

ooops ---- I focussed on the gas cutting thing - second part didnt register at first read
ours are capguns ---uberti, navy arms, cva, asm (one of each)
from working on these - yeah the metal is soft - but not near as soft as an original 73 winchester

[indian joe]

Uberti makes nice looking, functional replica firearms, which you put in a glass case and admire.

we been happily shooting their rifles for over thirty years - I think they are taking it better than the originals they replicate (or at least as well as anyway)

[john.k]

I made a replica falling block all mild steel ,and even though pressures couldnt be over 10k psi,I notice the firing pin hole is peening smaller......Which is very surprising,as primers look no different to primers fired with no charge......so something that happens is hitting the block face ,and it can only be primers........and ,yes,obviously the parts need to be case hardened.