80,000 PSI new ARMY .277_Fury round

[Oldfeller]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.277_FURY

GREATLY OUTPERFORMS the 6.5 Creedmore by running 80,000 psi in a steel headed, brass sided 3 part composite case that weighs much less than a solid brass case and is FAR CHEAPER to make. This sounds like where guns are headed ---- much much higher pressures contained in stainless steel composite cases.

Looks sorta like a .270-08 don't it? Note the option exists to stamp the body sides out of "soft" stainless with the steel head still being a harder material. Such composite rounds can run on up to 100,000 psi if the gun's action and splines/lugs can take it. A point of reference here, a .223 proof round runs at 82,250 psi in a SAMMI spec chamber so this isn't completely unknown territory ..... and the Stoner designed AR action can indeed take it.

This is a presentation of both the round and the sniper rifle from Sig Sauer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GvZth5ALw4


And this is a SAMMI style drawing of the case outer dimensions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:.277_Fury_SAAMI_diagram.png

[Jeff Michel]

We needed something to kill stuff deader..........

[AlaskaMike]

I can't imagine barrels would last long on a steady diet of 80kpsi ammo.

[Oldfeller]

Ammo that shoots further, hits faster and harder with a heavier bullet, also means completed ammo weighs a lot less so a trooper can carry more of it.

It means guns and ammo will be different in the future.

Powders will be faster, the charges will be less weight and have a smaller bulk intending to burn and boost inside a 16" barrel.

Most throat erosion we are familiar with came from magnum charges of still burning powder choking down the throat constriction to get to the bore while still burning furiously.

This stuff will be mostly done burning while still in the case ...... which is fine for jacketed bullets which is what it was built for.

But it doesn't sound very cast friendly, does it? Perhaps more of a powder coat friendly rather than grease/bees wax friendly, but still likely way too intense in full loads for old style grease lube normal techniques to give good accuracy.

But you can easily back the loadings down for cast use in bolt action rifles.

:p

AR-15 gas driven piston actions will likely suffer from "low gas pressure symptoms" when using low-for-accuracy cast bullets loads.

[elmacgyver0]

They will be able to miss more stuff at greater ranges.

[farmbif]

135grains at 3000 fps,
hmm maybe just me but good old fashioned 2520 with 150 grain bullets will shoot at 2900-to just about 3000fps in the 308 win/7.62 all day long without exceeding 62,000psi
I dont understand what's the benefit, ammo weight reduction? could be that much . sounds like a pretty complex process to make a pretty complex cartridge
or is this whole program just corporate socialism. like food stamps for sig sauer just a big money contract to try out something new.

[TNsailorman]

I don't know about the case. I was told it cannot be reloaded. Is this true, if so, I would not be the slightest interested in it. If I can't reload it, I ain't interested. my .02 anyway, james

[Oldfeller]

James, do please quote your sources, please. It is very helpful to those who care to look for themselves.

This is not caseless ammo, which resulted in the same stuff about no reloading that you are perhaps referring to.

[todd9.3x57]

they have the round already. they are experimenting on the rifle and the round, thats all. the Special Forces already have the 6.8 SPC, they done that years ago

Experimental Model = XM

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/277-sig-fury-demystified/ notice the date.

and


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3UWfJNiktI&t=4s

[376Steyr]

Is there some different primer technology associated with running at 80,000 PSI? I think current primers would crater and blow at that pressure. Are they just using extra-thick and tough primer cups?

[Mal Paso]

With all the ammo and gun manufacturers idle it's good give them something to do even if it's busy work.

[derek45]

pour me a big ol cup of NEVER GONNA HAPPEN

[TNsailorman]

The question I poised came as a result of an article sent to me by my brother and included a couple of short videos made by SIG to promote both the military version of the new Army contract rifle and a civilian version of the German Army rifle. One of the comments made was that the case for the cartridge was made of a "new" type of plastic and therefore would not be reloadable. I don't have the email now as since I could not reload the new cartridge, I had no interest in the rifle or ammo. As I said, if it is not reloadable, I am not interested in rifle or cartridge. james

[Oldfeller]

James,

What they are touting now has brass side walls and a steel head. And yes, we all remember other experimental rounds that were plastic walled that in essence allowed handling and belt feeding of something similar to a case-less load.

So yes, you remember correctly.

Reality ruled though, so a marginally reloadable brass sided round design was chosen as a finalist.

Why? Because us gun guys do vote in every election.

:-?

[MrHarmless]

... we all remember other experimental rounds that were plastic walled that in essence allowed handling and belt feeding of something similar to a case-less load.


Reality ruled though, so a marginally reloadable brass sided round design was chosen as a finalist.

Why? Because us gun guys do vote in every election.

:-?

It has less less to do about reloaders voting, and more to do with plastic cases not acting as an effective heat sink compared to brass. As a result, barrels heat up faster. It's a problem that will be solved eventually, but too radical a step for Big Green.

[charlie b]

This reminds me of the FN 'experiment' with the 5.7 and the P90.

[Texas by God]

Several years back Brian Pierce had a short article about Dick Casull's experiments with steel head/brass body cartridges and his deep recessed bolt face bolt action rifles that he designed for them. It was very interesting reading and the ballistics were above the normal for sure.

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[todd9.3x57]

i remember in the 90s Remmy came out with an electrically fired rifle and "Elmer's glued" cartridges (the cartridge was some sorta glue and powder, no brass. i couldn't reload it, so a pass for me.

[charlie b]

And remember the caseless ammo experiments? The three lobe shaped thing with the bullet buried in the charge. And various case material, from plastic to various 'papers'.

[405grain]

Just another in the endless series of whizz-bang ammo inventions that will be "researched" but never adopted by the military. Honestly, do you really believe that all the countries in NATO are going to change over their ammunition production facilities and adopt something like this? That would require replacing all of their armaments, their ammunition stock piles, their supply streams, their training methods, etc. Doing all this for an increase in complexity with only a marginal increase in performance? Not going to happen. The future will more likely be magnetic rail guns or energetic beam weapons. It would have to be something that makes conventional ammunition as obsolete as a black powder muzzleloader.

[Kevinakaq]

Deleted

[Daekar]

So... it's basically a necked down 308. Why do they need such high pressure? Surely standard 7.62 NATO pressures are sufficient to push those little bullets fast enough to do the job.

[dave roelle]

Follow the money to find answers

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Huh? What did you say?

As if there wasn’t enough hearing damage in our vets as it is…

[ebb]

A bunch of long range elk hunters that were shooting elk at over 2000 yds back years ago were using this type of case. They lathe turned bases and threaded the brass body of the case onto the steel bases.

[Texas by God]

Voere was the company with the caseless ammo and rifle to shoot it. Finn Aagaard reviewed the .224 version and took a deer with it near his place in Llano.
Remington had the Etronix version of the m700 that came in 22-250, .220 Swift, and .243. The primer was the only variant on the conventional brass cartridge.
It was only cataloged for 2-3 years starting in 2000.
I think that the long range requirements for the military are already covered by the 7.62 Nato, .300 Winchester magnum, and .50 BMG- but I'm just a dumb old country boy.

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[M-Tecs]

U.S. Army Selects SIG SAUER Next Generation Squad Weapons System

https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/us-army-selects-sig-sauer-next-generation-squad-weapons-system

.277 SIG Fury Cartridge: Everything You Need to Know - Guns and Ammo
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/277-sig-fury-cartridge/457153

[Omega]

Last I read, the round was like $8 each, hopefully this will change with the SAAMI and military adopting it.

Ok, looked and it's down to $3.98 each.
https://www.sigsauer.com/accubond-277-sig-fury-hybrid.html
https://www.sigsauer.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2f7933e2ff16f0ec074a16ab6b6195f2/h/2/h277sfab150-20-web.jpg

[JSnover]

Huh? What did you say?

As if there wasn’t enough hearing damage in our vets as it is…

Uncle Sam has finally accepted the concept of suppressors for infantry rifles. They're not just for Spec Ops anymore.

[JSnover]

Last I read, the round was like $8 each, hopefully this will change with the SAAMI and military adopting it.

Ok, looked and it's down to $3.98 each.
https://www.sigsauer.com/accubond-277-sig-fury-hybrid.html
https://www.sigsauer.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2f7933e2ff16f0ec074a16ab6b6195f2/h/2/h277sfab150-20-web.jpg

OUCH! I'd guess that two-piece case adds a lot to the production cost.

[DonHowe]

I have heard the "lighter ammunition so troops can carry more of it" story before. Combine carrying a lot more ammo with a rock-n-roll switch and you get what Major Lones Wigger discovered whenstudying the state of marksmanship in Vietnam. Winger wrote that an estimated 300,000+ rounds were fired per casualty inflicted.
I see a similar situation every time I am surrounded by ARs at the range.

One thing that strikes me when I read of these new toys the military wants is the staggering cost to the taxpayers. In recent years there was what ammounted to a gussied-up AR-based rifle the Marines wanted at demeaning like $5500 a pop.
And to think the young men of the "Greatest Generation" only had 8 rounds of boring old caliber .30 M1 in a rifle that kicked harder than a modern weightlifting athlete can stand.

[Rickf1985]

I have heard the "lighter ammunition so troops can carry more of it" story before. Combine carrying a lot more ammo with a rock-n-roll switch and you get what Major Lones Wigger discovered whenstudying the state of marksmanship in Vietnam. Winger wrote that an estimated 300,000+ rounds were fired per casualty inflicted.
I see a similar situation every time I am surrounded by ARs at the range.

One thing that strikes me when I read of these new toys the military wants is the staggering cost to the taxpayers. In recent years there was what ammounted to a gussied-up AR-based rifle the Marines wanted at demeaning like $5500 a pop.
And to think the young men of the "Greatest Generation" only had 8 rounds of boring old caliber .30 M1 in a rifle that kicked harder than a modern weightlifting athlete can stand.


In Semi auto form at that! No full auto on a Garand.
I got in trouble more than once for refusing to fire full auto for no reason in Vietnam. I was brought up on "one shot, one kill". And I lived by that creed. If full auto is needed for cover fire to move troops then that is fine but not just to waste the precious 200 rounds they "said" you were only supposed to carry out in the field. How many of you vets actually carried the 200 round limit?

[farmbif]

only the pentagon can afford things like those $8 rounds and $640 toilet seats. hey guys and guess who pays the bill.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-story.html

if John browning were born 20 years ago wonder what would be created.

[Blood Trail]

I don’t give a darn if the cases can withstand 80k psi. What about the receiver?

I’ll do som digging, but I bet it could take a while for this to hit the army.

Gotta get NATO’s approval as well.


Seems to be little gain for a caliber stretching that chamber at 80k psi

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[M-Tecs]

I don’t give a darn if the cases can withstand 80k psi. What about the receiver?

I’ll do som digging, but I bet it could take a while for this to hit the army.

Gotta get NATO’s approval as well.


Seems to be little gain for a caliber stretching that chamber at 80k psi

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Per the reports I have read they will start fielding them next year.

80k receivers are not a problem. Some of the custom action makers have offered them for a couple of years for the extreme long range competitors. Even the standard AR bolts and extensions survived the AMU's V-8 loads. They tested at 77k or 78k.

As to NATO approval not required.

[Brassmonkey]

i remember in the 90s Remmy came out with an electrically fired rifle and "Elmer's glued" cartridges (the cartridge was some sorta glue and powder, no brass. i couldn't reload it, so a pass for me.


If we can cast boolits why can't we cast a powder charge onto it?

Durability was a big problem though. I was shown a drawing of a "bullet" jacketed partitioned with multiple chambers for the propellant. A long skirt to it so that the propellant was protected. Just different ways of accomplishing the task. Just wait till railguns improve

[TNsailorman]

I understand that there is a rail gun on a Navy ship right now. Maybe for long range tests but it is operational so far. Rail guns are a now weapon, not a future weapon. It takes a lot of power to operate one so I don't see the Army or Marines using them in the foreseeable future. The Power units needed to operate them are just to big to tote around the battlefield. my .02 anyway, james

[Blood Trail]

Per the reports I have read they will start fielding them next year.

80k receivers are not a problem. Some of the custom action makers have offered them for a couple of years for the extreme long range competitors. Even the standard AR bolts and extensions survived the AMU's V-8 loads. They tested at 77k or 78k.

As to NATO approval not required.

NATO approval not required? You sure about that?

https://www.queensu.ca/cidp/sites/cidpwww/files/uploaded_files/4-3%20Sum2018_PB_Zhou_web.pdf


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[M-Tecs]

NATO approval not required? You sure about that?

https://www.queensu.ca/cidp/sites/cidpwww/files/uploaded_files/4-3%20Sum2018_PB_Zhou_web.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, very sure.

NATO does not “approve ammunition."

When NATO agrees to a specification for common rounds that will safely function in weapons of that caliber used by other NATO forces it then becomes a Standard NATO Round. Nothing more.

NATO rounds will have defined dimensions and pressures so they will safely function in firearms with NATO chamberings.

Militaries are free to use weapons that do not use NATO standard rounds.

You confused NATO Standard ammunition as NATO Approved. There is no such thing as “NATO Approved” ammunition. NATO Standard ammunition is exactly that: ammunition manufactured to the agreed-upon NATO standard.

As a matter of, well, standardization, NATO armies guarantee their various weapons that have a NATO Standard ammunition be able to accept and use that ammunition. But no NATO military is required to use such if they choose.

[MrHarmless]

So... it's basically a necked down 308. Why do they need such high pressure? Surely standard 7.62 NATO pressures are sufficient to push those little bullets fast enough to do the job.

Because they needed to reach a specific level of terminal performance at a specific range. .277 caliber was the best compromise between ballistic coefficients and getting to the required velocity at a reasonable pressure. 7mm-08 is similar (albeit a .284 bullet vs .277), and a 130 grain bullet in that caliber maxes out around 2900 feet per second, but with a 24 inch barrel. The army needed 3000 out of a 16 inch barrel. That's where the extra pressure comes from.

[JSnover]

Regarding the service life of the platform, I believe all of that is specified before prototypes are submitted for the trials. Apparently Sig figured out a way to meet the spec.

[Oldfeller]

7mm08 if fed that case construction and 82,000 psi worth of faster powder could pick up a few hundred fps velocity.

I know because I have done it before, yes, back in my balls to the walls days. Back when 7.65 NATO brass was dirt cheap and you could afford to load it up to case stretch levels and then throw it away.

Cases always fail before actions do.

Your gun was proofed at 82,000 psi so you know the action is good at that level of pressure. Normal working pressure of 7mm-08 is 62,000 psi.

[243winxb]

Firing a 80,000 PSI proof round every time should work well. :shock:

[Larry Gibson]

7mm08 if fed that case construction and 82,000 psi worth of faster powder could pick up a few hundred fps velocity.

I know because I have done it before, yes, back in my balls to the walls days. Back when 7.65 NATO brass was dirt cheap and you could afford to load it up to case stretch levels and then throw it away.

Cases always fail before actions do.

Your gun was proofed at 82,000 psi so you know the action is good at that level of pressure. Normal working pressure of 7mm-08 is 62,000 psi.

That 62,500 psi is the SAAMI MAP for the 7-08. "Normal" psi of factory ammunition will be 2 - 5,000 psi lower. However, "premium" factory ammunition or LR ammunition can approach or be at the SAAMI MAP.

"Service life", these days, of a rifle action has a different meaning to the military than to civilians.

[Blood Trail]

Yes, very sure.

NATO does not “approve ammunition."

When NATO agrees to a specification for common rounds that will safely function in weapons of that caliber used by other NATO forces it then becomes a Standard NATO Round. Nothing more.

NATO rounds will have defined dimensions and pressures so they will safely function in firearms with NATO chamberings.

Militaries are free to use weapons that do not use NATO standard rounds.

You confused NATO Standard ammunition as NATO Approved. There is no such thing as “NATO Approved” ammunition. NATO Standard ammunition is exactly that: ammunition manufactured to the agreed-upon NATO standard.

As a matter of, well, standardization, NATO armies guarantee their various weapons that have a NATO Standard ammunition be able to accept and use that ammunition. But no NATO military is required to use such if they choose.

I was referring to the caliber. YOU brought up ammo (which is govern by The Hague Accords of 1899). I never said anything about ammo.


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[M-Tecs]

I don’t give a darn if the cases can withstand 80k psi. What about the receiver?

I’ll do som digging, but I bet it could take a while for this to hit the army.

Gotta get NATO’s approval as well.


Seems to be little gain for a caliber stretching that chamber at 80k psi

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NATO approval not required? You sure about that?

https://www.queensu.ca/cidp/sites/cidpwww/files/uploaded_files/4-3%20Sum2018_PB_Zhou_web.pdf


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I was referring to the caliber. YOU brought up ammo (which is govern by The Hague Accords of 1899). I never said anything about ammo.


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When you are in a hole it's best to stop digging.

You claimed NATO approval was required for the US military to adopt a new cartridge. That is 100% BS.

At some point this cartridge may become a NATO standard but at this point only the Army is adopting it. The contact is for up to 225,000 over the next ten years. Other branches may or may not get on board.

https://www.govconwire.com/2022/04/sig-sauer-awarded-army-next-generation-squad-weapon-production-contract/

Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 eliminate the use of easily expanding projectiles by its signotors.

[Oldfeller]

You guys enjoy this back and forth sort of disagreement. So agree to disagree, already.

Yes, we have all watched the US military trying to get a better cartridge for our military's carry rifle for over a decade now, and now they have finalized on one and put out a purchase contract.

Is it the ultimate very best one? Likely not, but it is what they have picked. The ARM field trials start now using this one, so let's see how it shakes out in the hands of troops.

Like the .308 Nato round did to the 30-06, it indicates a wind shift is coming for the US arms industry.

I find that once fired brass has gotten RIGHT EXPENSIVE lately, mostly due to the brass price. I see commercial plastic walled cases being sold publicaly today, with some steel walled cases being available as well.

With the cost of copper and brass being so high, I look to see some more steel and plastic walled cases become more common.

There is no law saying they have to be Berdan primed either .......

:p

[Rapidrob]

It is interesting that a new cartridge comes out and military's start looking at it to see if it is applicable to be used in their countries armed forces.
Look how long the 6.5 Grendel has been out and now Serbia is adapting it in their AK series of rifles. A great cartridge to be sure and one of my favorites for long range shooting.
So we,the USA, for more monitory reasons forgo the 6.5 Grendel and look at the 6.8 cartridge for awhile. Now the .277 Fury is going to be used?
In the past the Britt "7 m/m" cartridge for the FAL / L1A1 rifle was tested and had very good attributes but the " not-made-here" mentality kicked in and we went with the 7.62x51mm.
Now were back to a similar cartridge that the Wildcatters have been playing with for a long time now with stronger case components. Got to love it.
Follow the money trail.

[Blood Trail]

When you are in a hole it's best to stop digging.

You claimed NATO approval was required for the US military to adopt a new cartridge. That is 100% BS.

At some point this cartridge may become a NATO standard but at this point only the Army is adopting it. The contact is for up to 225,000 over the next ten years. Other branches may or may not get on board.

https://www.govconwire.com/2022/04/sig-sauer-awarded-army-next-generation-squad-weapon-production-contract/

Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 eliminate the use of easily expanding projectiles by its signotors.

You got it, super nato ammo guy. [emoji1474][emoji1478]


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[DonHowe]

Per the reports I have read they will start fielding them next year.

80k receivers are not a problem. Some of the custom action makers have offered them for a couple of years for the extreme long range competitors. Even the standard AR bolts and extensions survived the AMU's V-8 loads. They tested at 77k or 78k.

As to NATO approval not required.

If by "tested at" you are referring to proof loads are you suggesting something like an AR is suitable for a constant diet of proof loads? If so I'll watch while you shoot it!

[missionary5155]

Well as I roll over in the early morning by the campfire my flintlock will still be there.
But Bully for SIG !

[M-Tecs]

If by "tested at" you are referring to proof loads are you suggesting something like an AR is suitable for a constant diet of proof loads? If so I'll watch while you shoot it!

In the days when the 80 grain Seirra was the only option for 5.56 for 600 and 1,000 yard competition the Army Marksmanship Unit developed a load they called the V-8 load. They had to use harder virgin LC brass and (if I remember correctly) it need to be crimped and sealed primers also. Actual pressure testing showed the load was in the 77K to 78K pressure range. And yes they shot it repeatedly and in competition in the M16's. Per the AMU guys that shot it a lot they would just swamp out bolts when they broke a lug. I was not a AMU member but I did compete with them. I did inspect the brass after they fired it and the primer pockets were toast after the first firing. I was given a small quantity of loaded ammo that I did shoot.

In one of Glen Zediker AR books he goes into more detail about the load and it's actual tested pressure.

Once better bullets hit the seen the V-8 load was no longer used.

I am not suggesting the average person use anything outside of SAAMI specs but that does not change the fact that the AMU did opt to use a very high pressures load that required brass not available to the public and they deemed breaking lugs an acceptable cost of doing business.

With the advent of the 80K cartridges and firearms designed to handle these pressures we should see a technological jump. We already have seen the two-piece cases with harder heads. What I am most interested in is barrel material. Pressure equals heat. Heat/pressure shortens barrel life. My guess is barrels are being made from something other than the standard barrel material since they are full auto. Same for the suppressors.

The 460 S&W is a 65K round. Thirty years ago stating that 65K pressures in a revolver would become reality would have made you the laughing stock of the gun world. The 460 has been around since 2005.

Interesting read here https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/reloading-myths-for-rifle-cartridges/371443

So-Called Pressure Signs
Another common belief involves so-called pressure signs, where fired cases (or the rifle) show indications of distress with increasing powder charges. The signs include stiff bolt lift, loose primer pockets, “excessively” flattened primers, and ejector-hole marks on the case head. If none of these signs appear, the load is supposedly safe in the rifle. Unfortunately, they can all occur long before pressures reach normal levels and sometimes fail to appear even when pressures are way over normal.

Before examining each pressure sign, let’s define normal pressures. SAAMI establishes pressures for commercial cartridges made in the United States along with case and chamber dimensions. The maximum average pressure (MAP) allowed by SAAMI for any rifle cartridge is 65,000 psi, yet many handloads won’t show any pressure signs at 70,000 psi and occasionally 75,000 psi. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........In the 1990s a major ammunition company decided to commercially legitimize a popular wildcat. Like most wildcats, the cartridge had been developed by using traditional pressure signs and had been around long enough for several popular handloads to be widely publicized. When the ammo company tested those handloads, however, they averaged around 70,000 psi and a few hit 75,000 psi. That’s why factory ammo for the round averaged over 200 fps slower than its popular handloads.

That mirrors personal experience. I load for a lot of cartridges that are per SAAMI are 65K. I have no accurate method to measure pressure so I mostly use primer pocket life. If the primer pocket is loose after a couple loads my guess is the pressure is well above 65K. Generally I like to get a minimum of 10 loadings but when pushing 155's hard in a 308 for Palma one of my best loads would only last 3 loadings.

On a side note lots of the Palma actions don't have ejectors to limit brass flow into the ejector cutout and yes these loads are well over SAAMI. For Palma I used Barnard and RPA action and none of them have an ejector.

The standard 270 Winchester is a 65K cartridge introduced in 1925. A 15K pressure increase in just under 100 years is very slow progress.

The extreme long-range shooters and action builders are playing at well above 65K in a lot of configurations. Those pressures are not as new or as radical as some seem to believe. My only real surprise is that it took almost a hundred years for higher pressure class of cartridge to be introduced.

Some have claimed it will never happen but the contract with Sig indicates it will. The contract is for 10 years. Sauer has won a potential 10-year, $4.5 billion contract from the U.S. Army to produce two Next Generation Squad Weapon variants with a common 6.8 millimeter ammunition and fire control system. And yes this is all without the approval from NATO........

https://www.govconwire.com/2022/04/sig-sauer-awarded-army-next-generation-squad-weapon-production-contract/

https://www.army.mil/article/255827/army_awards_next_generation_squad_weapon_contract

[243winxb]

Will take some learning on the shooters part, i think.
The XM5 and XM250 will be paired with the XM157 Fire Control, a ruggedized advanced fire control system that increases accuracy and lethality for the close combat force. The XM157 integrates a number of advanced technologies, including a variable magnification optic (1X8), backup etched reticle, laser rangefinder, ballistic calculator, atmospheric sensor suite, compass, Intra-Soldier Wireless, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and a digital display overlay. It is produced by Sheltered Wings Inc. d/b/a Vortex Optics, Barneveld, Wisconsin.

[M-Tecs]

Will take some learning on the shooters part, i think.

Once learned it will be an game changing sight system. https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/xm157/

The US has owned the night due to night vision. This system should do the same during the day. It may or may not change the poke and spray close range combat actions much but for medium to long range combat the US war fighter becomes much more lethal. The Intra-Soldier Wireless, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and a digital display overlay could be a game changer for close combat? Time will tell as more details come out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qg8OvJcbqs&t=87s

[DonHowe]

Regarding NATO approval, I suspect the dog will wag the tail. At a NATO conference who is the "dog" in the room at this point?

As for AMU, I'm a fan of AMU and the Marine counterpart and their innovations and accomplishments. However, what they do does not always signify. They could compete with ammunition which would render a rifle unsafe for use after one match and justify the cost because the taxpayers are paying for it all. Because the AMU did it does not mean it is wise for us to follow suit. In fact, if they broke locking lugs they were already beyond strength capability designed into the firearm. That they didn't blow up rifles is due to the strength safety factor designed into the rifle
Anyone who wants to do that can have at it but I'll pass. There is little margin for error left at that point.

[Rich/WIS]

Wonder what throat erosion/barrel wear will be like at that pressure/heat level, particularly in SAW type weapons. Even rapid fire in a rifle will heat a barrel very quickly. The old M1 will heat the barrel to a point you will burn yourself on the exposed section of barrel after only one clip, can't imagine the heating after a 30 round magazine rapid fire. Would not want to be the guy in the ejection pattern of spent brass.

[DonHowe]

This thought occured tome while searching the web on a different tppic: what effect is a study diet of 80 kpsi rounds likely to have on throat erosion/barrel life? Not that that matters to the military funded by our wallets.

I am reminded of the huge Krupp railway guns of WWII. Projectiles were made progressively larger to compensate for barrel wear and were fired in order.
I know I know! That is extreme in relation to this discussion but some current cartridges loaded to "normal" pressures with the best barrel steels have barrel-life round counts in the hundreds. What happens when pressure is increased by nearly a third? In the 7.62 M60 era "A" spare barrel was carried due to relatively short barrel life. How long will a m240 barrel last at 80 kpsi and how many spares will be needed or do I just have an over-active imagination? I do know that contrary to what movies show automayic weapon barrel life is pretty short in sustained-fire situtations.

[M-Tecs]

This thought occured tome while searching the web on a different tppic: what effect is a study diet of 80 kpsi rounds likely to have on throat erosion/barrel life? Not that that matters to the military funded by our wallets.

I am reminded of the huge Krupp railway guns of WWII. Projectiles were made progressively larger to compensate for barrel wear and were fired in order.
I know I know! That is extreme in relation to this discussion but some current cartridges loaded to "normal" pressures with the best barrel steels have barrel-life round counts in the hundreds. What happens when pressure is increased by nearly a third? In the 7.62 M60 era "A" spare barrel was carried due to relatively short barrel life. How long will a m240 barrel last at 80 kpsi and how many spares will be needed or do I just have an over-active imagination? I do know that contrary to what movies show automayic weapon barrel life is pretty short in sustained-fire situtations.

Normally technology improves over time. I expect the same here. 65K cartridges have been around for close to a hundred years. This is from another site and I don't know how accurate it is. That being said I did speak to a Sig Rep that did state barrel life would be more than double of conventional barrels on the CROSS Rifles with the 277 Fury chambering. That was about 6 months ago.

" Military set a spec for barrel life of twice the “useful life” of a current M4 barrel. (Which basically means how many rounds sent downrange before the weapon will not shot 4MOA or less.) For an M4, this is ~6,000 rounds. 6.8x51 military barrels use a nitriding process instead of the M4s chrome lining (and some other changes) and have gone ~14,000 rounds before accuracy falls out of required spec. What that means for aftermarket civilian barrels in terms of useful accuracy life is anyone’s guess. That said, SIG has stated that all barrels it produces for this round, including for the Cross rifle, are built to the military standard."

From what I have read that 14K includes FA fire? Some claims are with slow fire that doubles to 28,000 rounds???? Time will tell.

I don't know what the real numbers are but I do know barrel life was a design and contract requirement. Same for the suppressors. The claims are the 4.5 billion dollar contract is firm but it has yearly renewals that can switch to other venders than Sig if they don't make good on the requirements.

[crackers]

All out of a 16 inch barrel? The US will drown in the hearing-loss claims.

[Mal Paso]

Anyone going to the Sig Shoot the weekend after next?

[yovinny]

China, Russia and Vietnam produce over 90% of the Tungston used now.
If the US is changing to a new caliber with a Tungston penetrator, I have one question.
Which of our previously mentioned buddies are we planning on hooking our small arms ammo wagon to ?

[ofitg]

A 135-gr projectile at 3000 ft/sec sounds very close to the recoil momentum of a 147-gr projectile at 2800 ft/sec (ie, 7.62 NATO ball ammo).

I haven't seen it spelled out anywhere, but I imagine that the XM5 selector switch will provide a full-auto option? That thing will be a lot less controllable than the M4......

[M-Tecs]

All out of a 16 inch barrel? The US will drown in the hearing-loss claims.

They come with suppressors. To me building a suppressor that will handle FA heat is much more of a challenge than getting reasonable barrel life.

Ultimately the civilian shooters tend to benefit from military technology advancements. That should be the case here. I am just glad that it doesn't use a caseless design. That would have very limited, if any benefit, to the civilian shooter.

[WRideout]

And remember the caseless ammo experiments? The three lobe shaped thing with the bullet buried in the charge. And various case material, from plastic to various 'papers'.

Sounds like a Dardick "tround."
Wayne

[dverna]

Interesting but of no consequence. I cannot even embrace the 6.5 CreedLess, so I have no need for the latest whiz-bang money magnet.

The young crowd can go ga-ga over new technology. Killing critters and, God forbid, men is not difficult or complex. I will make do with what has worked for decades.

[megasupermagnum]

They come with suppressors. To me building a suppressor that will handle FA heat is much more of a challenge than getting reasonable barrel life.

Ultimately the civilian shooters tend to benefit from military technology advancements. That should be the case here. I am just glad that it doesn't use a caseless design. That would have very limited, if any benefit, to the civilian shooter.

The other thing I'm thinking is to get to these higher pressures, a faster powder is needed. I played around a bit on Quickloads, and it looks like a powder around IMR 3031 burn rate is going to be what they use for a cartridge like this. According to QL, with a 6.8 Rem SPC that I increased case capacity to 56 gr water (guessing), 42 gr IMR 3031, 140gr bullet, 77,000 psi, and at 16" I'm seeing a muzzle pressure of around 15,000 psi, which really isn't that much different than any existing rifle. Now I am assuming there are more progressive burning powders that will be higher at the muzzle, but nothing is going to blow your ears out that a 223 wont.

Or as you point out, a suppressor solves everything.

I know we had a back and forth a few weeks back on the AR10. I love the 308, but I'll admit if I could get this 277 Fury in an AR10, I'd be a buyer. I have no idea if this will become a reality in the future or not.

[414gates]

I been thinking about why they would make disposable cases like this.

They are much more expensive to manufacture. [ which is not a problem for the government because the taxpayer foots the bill ]

The performance increase is offset by increased wear and tear of the firearm. Again not a problem for government, taxpayer money is endless.

There are normal pressure cartridges with the same performance, but they are reloadable.

This brass is not reloadable. This is a good reason for government enforcement to use these cartridges.

1. they can control the supply of ammunition
2. if the guns fall into civilian hands, civilians can't make ammo for them

This scenario applies especially when military personnel are deployed to police large civilian areas. If there is conflict with the locals, and they lose come guns, the civilians can't pick them up with a bunch of brass casings and re-use them.

But first, they would need to get rid of the existing guns in the civilian population.

And just by chance, gun ownership is a hateful, white supremacist ideology, which the Disinformation Governance Board was created to deal with. Being part of Homeland Security, they will be issued with these new weapons.

[barnabus]

just another gimmick caliber for those so called men in hair buns that drive Subaru's. and another gun you cant get ammo for..smh

[M-Tecs]

Per Sig the round is potentially reloadable. That is in the first video the OP posted and it's below.

For the civilian shooter in competition or hunting the performance can be equaled or surpassed by larger conventional cases in longer barrels so I see limited civilian benefit from the cartridge itself. The technology used to increase barrel/suppressor life can be used on all firearms and that may be a huge benefit. The 277 Fury was designed for a military contact. Again, that is per Sig in the OP's video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GvZth5ALw4

As a combat rifle system, it appears to me, to be the most lethal and effective combat rifle system the world ever has seen.

Am I going to purchase the civilian version? Not in the foreseeable future.

On the other hand if I was the pointy end of the spear going into combat this rifle system would be what I want to be using bar none. The lack of stopping power of the M4 with 62 Grain green tip M855 well documented.

I for one am very happy that the US Army is adopting this system. For a military system it appears to address most of the shortcomings of the current M4 platform and all other current military rifles.

[megasupermagnum]

3000 fps with a 140gr bullet from a 16" barrel. That's crazy! I'm trying to find something comparable, but I can't. A 270 weatherby mag might come close, but I'm only seeing 2800 fps on Quickloads.

I guess my only question is how do primers do at 80,000 psi?

[414gates]

Per Sig the round is potentially reloadable.

Potentially anything is reloadable.

With current equipment and components for hobby reloaders, this is not.

Dies to handle steel cases. Presses to handle the pressure of working with steel case dies. And the primers , powder and priming system are not what we are used to, we can see this by virtue of the operating pressure.

[M-Tecs]

Potentially anything is reloadable.

With current equipment and components for hobby reloaders, this is not.

Dies to handle steel cases. Presses to handle the pressure of working with steel case dies. And the primers , powder and priming system are not what we are used to, we can see this by virtue of the operating pressure.

This is just a guess but I would be very surprised if the SS case head expands. Time will tell if its reloadable but this is a military case designed for military applications.

I've been in 4 different combat zones on three different continents. I was on the receiving end of rockets and mortars several times. I've never fired a weapon in combat but I do know I if I was this is the rifles system I would have wanted.

It appears the Army has learned from past mistakes and got this one right.

[jonp]

i remember in the 90s Remmy came out with an electrically fired rifle and "Elmer's glued" cartridges (the cartridge was some sorta glue and powder, no brass. i couldn't reload it, so a pass for me.

Yup and how much are boxes of those Etronix going for now? Seemed like a silly idea to me to save a few milliseconds in lock time.

[jonp]

Someone mentioned the primers which would be a question for me and also the barrel life. That pressure seems awful hot and what powder are we jamming into the 223 to get to that?

[M-Tecs]

Yup and how much are boxes of those Etronix going for now? Seemed like a silly idea to me to save a few milliseconds in lock time.

They did have almost zero lock time for the flow of electrons but the primer was basically a glow plug. It was not instantaneous and under some conditions it was slower. A friend had/has one. He has switched it over to a conventional firing system.

http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/ask-uncle-nick/etronx-the-electronic-marvel-that-bombed

[M-Tecs]

3000 fps with a 140gr bullet from a 16" barrel. That's crazy! I'm trying to find something comparable, but I can't. A 270 weatherby mag might come close, but I'm only seeing 2800 fps on Quickloads.


Yes it is. Coupled with the optics and electronics this will give the US Army the most capable combat rifle system the world has ever seen. Who doesn't want that for the US soldiers? Judging from some of the comments apparently some don't. The 4.5 billon that will be spent on this over the next 10 years will be worth every penny.

[Kevinakaq]

Yes it is. Coupled with the optics and electronics this will give the US Army the most capable combat rifle system the world has ever seen. Who doesn't want that for the US soldiers? Judging from some of the comments apparently some don't. The 4.5 billon that will be spent on this over the next 10 years will be worth every penny.

Agreed. Sig was onsite last week at our facility concerning this project. If you do your research the round/rifle has great potential. We also are doing business with True Velocity and I was not a fan of their plastic case solution. Lighter yes, but no ballistic advantage over traditional brass. Sig ‘claims’ extended barrel life because of increased powder burn within case, less drop (6-9 ft. less at 1000 yds) and more energy (20-25%) than 6.5 creedmoor, better penetration on modern body armor which can defeat 5.56 (significant driver of the 6.8 spec requirement), and 20% lighter than a traditional brass cased round. They claim it can be reloaded which excites me but should have zero consideration when it comes to military applications. Let’s see if it get’s through extended field trials, and I would expect excess pressure blowing up receivers would rate a fail, but if it delivers as Sig advertises, and the military tests to date, than good for our soldiers in the field. I don’t need a solution for the range or while hunting as I am not being shot at, but IF it makes those putting their lives on the line for us more effective it is a good thing.

My two overpriced cents…

[dverna]

I am guilty of looking at this from my perspective and not from that of a soldier. If it became a commercial cartridge, I would have no interest as it offers nothing I need over my old .308's....of which I have three.

I have read reports of soldiers frustrated with the 5.56 when ranges get much past 250-300 yards. That is a legitimate concern.

I am an old man, and there is little incentive to jump on another "new improved" bandwagon. I have seen the story before. But should this be adopted by the military it is something to ponder. Especially for people looking to standardize on a caliber that will be effective on game and as a "battle rifle" for SHTF. For that to happen, it will need to be reloadable.

[WRideout]

just another gimmick caliber for those so called men in hair buns that drive Subaru's. and another gun you cant get ammo for..smh

Ouch!

[M-Tecs]

just another gimmick caliber for those so called men in hair buns that drive Subaru's. and another gun you cant get ammo for..smh

This cartridge was designed per the Army's request. It will be fielded in the XM5 Rifles And XM250 Automatic Rifles. That is about as far from a gimmick caliber for those so called men in hair buns that drive Subaru's as you can get.

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/04/game-changer-the-us-army-picks-sig-sauers-xm5-rifle-and-xm250-rifle/

The Army Chooses Sig Sauer for the New Rifle, SAW For Close Combat Troops – The US Army has ended a 65-year history with the M16/M4 rifle and the 5.56mm rifle cartridge with the selection of Sig Sauer’s XM5 rifle and XM250 Automatic Rifle as the next weapons for troops beginning in late 2023.

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/277-sig-fury-cartridge/457153

277 SIG Fury Cartridge: Everything You Need to Know
SAAMI approved a maximum chamber pressure of 80,000psi for the new .277 SIG Fury. First unveiled in late 2019, the cartridge is the result of SIG Sauer's participation in the Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW) military procurement solicitations.

February 17, 2022
By Tom Beckstrand
The U.S. Army has been making noise about “Next Generation” weapons and ammunition for years, and it gave firearms manufacturers its design criteria in 2018. The military indicated they wanted a new cartridge for the NGSW program, and it knew the performance that it wanted. The NGSW solicitation specified that the cartridge had to fire its Picatinny Arsenal-designed 135- to 140-grain .277-caliber bullet. We know that this projectile travels more than 3,100 feet per second (fps), but the actual velocity produced by the 6.8x51mm round is currently held secret. The Army intends to make its bullet for this program at Lake City Arsenal, and it placed the burden of cartridge development to figure out how to achieve such a high velocity on the firearms industry. Oh, yes, they also had to design a rifle (NGSW-R) and automatic rifle (NGSW-AR) to fire it.

[nicholst55]

Although I am now retired from working with, on, and testing Army Small Arms, I am excited about the new cartridge and weapons. The M16-series of rifles are 1950s technology that has been upgraded as technology allows. IMHO, if the magazine well of the original Armalite rifles had been a mere .250" longer to allow a longer cartridge and heavier bullet, that would have been a game changer. As it is, I do believe that the Army has done about all that can be done with the 5.56X45mm cartridge in current weapons. The new cartridge and weapons represent what current technology allows, and is designed to meet the Army's requirements. Will the cartridge, rifle, and SAW live up to expectations? Who knows. But, it will be interesting to watch. How will this technology impact sporting arms and ammunition? Once again, who knows. I don't plan to rush out and buy a rifle chambered for the new cartridge - I've got more than enough as it is. But for the warfighter, I think this is a significant improvement over the status quo.

[GooseGestapo]

What I find interesting is that in the absence of .277Sig ammo, the owner/reloader can cobble together .277-08 cartridges from available components. He/she may not be able to match performance criteria of the Sig ammo, but will nevertheless be able to make useable ammo.
I don’t see the .308 or 5.56/.223 going away.
The Sig b/a and civilian version of s/a rifles are already available. (Per Sig)...
Whether it gets traction in the market is to be seen.
I doubt the milspec ammunition is NOT reloadable. Even steel cased ammo can be reloaded with available components (ie: Berdan primers, washed, lubricated cases, ect’.

[megasupermagnum]

Yes the Sig MXC Spear is for sale. $8000 though.

[M-Tecs]

If you want a bolt gun in 277 Fury they are about $1,700. The Cross rifle itself is nice. The butt stock is cheaply constructed. I've sold a couple.

https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/277-fury-rifles/

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/hunt365-unforgettable-elk-hunt-with-the-sig-cross-rifle-in-277-sig-fury/

[Mal Paso]

So who is going to Ben Avery this weekend to see and shoot this gun? I just couldn't do the 14 hour drive back to back. 50 spots a day to shoot full auto.

[megasupermagnum]

If you want a bolt gun in 277 Fury they are about $1,700. The Cross rifle itself is nice. The butt stock is cheaply constructed. I've sold a couple.

https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/277-fury-rifles/

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/hunt365-unforgettable-elk-hunt-with-the-sig-cross-rifle-in-277-sig-fury/

If this does become a common NATO round, what are the chances it could see use in Palma competition?

[Daekar]

I am wondering how long it's going to take folks to buy a 277 Fury rifle just for the strong action and rebarrel it in something with more case capacity. It's not like the length of the cartridge really matters that much in a bolt gun if you put in a dummy mag plate and use it single load.

[M-Tecs]

If this does become a common NATO round, what are the chances it could see use in Palma competition?

That will need to be voted on by the nations that participate in Palma. If I remember correctly that is 14 countries and many of them are not NATO. Currently the 223 and 308 are the calibers and yes they are NATO but only time will tell. My guess is that the 277 Fury will not be allowed not because of the ballistic advantage but simply because the service has optic sights.

Tradition and bias by those that have superior vision will make this change very difficult.

https://www.longriflesinc.com/pages/custom-rifles-international-palma

[megasupermagnum]

I had no idea Palma was that widespread.

[M-Tecs]

I had no idea Palma was that widespread.

https://gunsmagazine.com/discover/palma-rifle-competition/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Confederation_of_Fullbore_Rifle_Asso ciations

https://www.6mmbr.com/palmabasics.html

[Rapidrob]

The 5.56 is a good round as Mr Stoner designed it with a 55 grain bullet out of a 1:14 twist rate. A great 300 yard load. But you all know what happend after that. They made a sows ear out of a silk purse.

[Good Cheer]

The 5.56 is a good round as Mr Stoner designed it with a 55 grain bullet out of a 1:14 twist rate. A great 300 yard load. But you all know what happend after that. They made a sows ear out of a silk purse.

Anyone here ever reload with a faster twist 5.56 with the intent of creating marginal stability like the original design concept for the 14" twist?

[Rapidrob]

I think you mean "slower" twist rate IE, 1:14 over 1:7.
Yes I shoot a "Slick" AR15 with a 20" 1:14 twist barrel. It is very accurate out to about 350 meters and hitting 3,200FPS is very easy to do with no pressure signs at all.
Is it practical at 500 meters? not really. The groups really open up as the bullet becomes more and more unstable in flight. It does not tumble in flight,it wobbles and the path looks like a spiral as the bullet pulls vapor out of the air.
However, the bullet will absolutely tumble and fragment like crazy if it hits pretty much anything of substance. That is what it was designed to do.
It was originally designed to protect parked B-52 bombers. If a bullet was to hit the aircraft the damage was not too severe as a .30 bullet out of a 1:10 twist rate barrel would have done.
I shot a 18 gauge steel locker door at 15 yards with a 55 grain M196 bullet and the bullet exploded into fragments not penetrating the back side of the locker.
Do this with a 1:7 or 9 twist barrel and it will most likely go straight through both sides of the same locker.

[Good Cheer]

No, I mean loading 5.56 to shoot in the modern faster twist barrels.
And to achieve the marginal stability that made the round such a good idea to start with.