12.7x44R Swede Rolling Block

[lar45]

Well, the wonderful brown truck delivered my new toy yesterday.
It's a Carl Gustaf Rolling Block in 12.7x44R.
I'm wondering what kind of wood they used in these rifles?
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-06.jpg

The pattern on the wood reminds me of a Muzzle loader scratch build show I watched awhile back where they used iron filings and linseed oil to coat the stock, then put a hot iron next to the wood to burn a pattern into it.

Anybody know what the proof marks are on it?
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-01.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-02.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-03.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-04.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-05.jpg

I'll try to get some good pics of the entire rifle tomorrow.
Hopefully get to test fire it tomorrow also if it doesn't rain the whole day.

[samari46]

Crown over C would be for Swedish rolling blocks and the various initials would be for the inspectors. I have one with the same markings as made in 1875 but was reworked in 1892 for the 8x58 cartridge. Think they used either birch or beech for the wood. Looks like yours has been refinished. Mine does not have the sheen on the wood. Frank

[pworley1]

Congratulations on your addition to the collection. Enjoy.

[sharps4590]

Good for you!! That's a cartridge I've wanted to play with for quite a while.

Kudo's to your picture taking ability. Mine is amazingly consistent, it sucks.

[lar45]

299289

[lar45]

299290

[lar45]

Sorry, the pictures aren't as learning this morning.

[MOA]

Easiest way to do brass if you can find is 50 Alaskan.
Just trim to 44mm. An keep trimming until it chambers easily

[lar45]

Got a short break in the rain today and shot it 10 times.
50 AK brass cut to 1.725", 26gn of IMR 4198 and a .501-420 from Hunter's Supply.
25 yards just to get on target.
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-11.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-10.jpg
The breach block has a huge firing pin that hits off center.
Would a breach block from a no.5 fit?
Or is this a gunsmith job?
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/50swede/swede-12.jpg

[elk hunter]

Looks like the block was originally rimfire. If it were me I'd thread and plug the hole relocate the firing pin hole and make a new pin.

[lar45]

Maybe the 50 AK brass is undersized and was sitting on the bottom of the chamber, so the firing pin hit high?
Tomorrow, I'll try wrapping tape around the base until it's snug and shoot it again.

[marlinman93]

Maybe the 50 AK brass is undersized and was sitting on the bottom of the chamber, so the firing pin hit high?
Tomorrow, I'll try wrapping tape around the base until it's snug and shoot it again.

I doubt it's an off centered case. As you can see from the breech block, these were originally a rimfire cartridge, and the lower RF hole was plugged, and a new hole was drilled to convert it to CF. It's likely that it may have been done by an amateur gunsmith, and he got the hole off center. Most gunsmiths would not only get it centered, but would also have not made the hole and firing pin tip that large.
The proper fix is to plug the hole and drill it smaller diameter like a modern firing pin should be. Then make up a new pin fitted to the smaller size hole. It will not only work better, but a small firing pin is much safer also.

[lar45]

My next question is about the trigger.
The trigger pull is very heavy. I haven't measured it, but I'd guess 10#ish.
Is there anything I should be on the lookout for?

[lar45]

I got out the trigger gauge and tried to measure it. Mine only goes to 6#, I pulled it to the stops and the trigger still didn't break.

[marlinman93]

My next question is about the trigger.
The trigger pull is very heavy. I haven't measured it, but I'd guess 10#ish.
Is there anything I should be on the lookout for?

If you go to Wommack's Rolling Block Parts Ken sells a piano wire trigger return spring that will usually drop the trigger weight down to under 5 lbs. Or buy some .045" piano wire and bend one up yourself.
I make my own and put them in every military Rolling Block action I use for a rifle build. Some are down as low as 2 lbs. after cleaning, installing the piano wire spring, and oiling things up with Kroil.
Military rifles have very heavy return springs so novice soldiers wont accidentally trip the triggers.

[Whole Bunches]

Mine also hits primer off center.

[Dutchman]

The crown/C is for the Carl Gustaf factory. The stock is arctic birch.

This shows the piano wire spring. It works very nicely to reduce trigger pull.

https://images34.fotki.com/v1605/photos/4/28344/7940990/DSCF0805vb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf0805vb.html)

But don't stop there. You can also polish the mainspring on an oil stone. Make sure to polish the end of the spring where it contacts with the crotch of the hammer. I use Tetra-lube there.

https://images34.fotki.com/v1623/photos/4/28344/7940990/DSCF1568rb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf1568rb.html)

This is what the mainspring looked like before. And yes, polishing the spring improves the characteristics.

https://images14.fotki.com/v218/photos/4/28344/7940990/DSCF9759rb1-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf9759rbjpg.html)

I did a complete re-hab of my Carl Gustaf m/1867 sporter to include removing the barrel and inspecting everything. These are the "before" pictures.

https://images14.fotki.com/v1648/photos/4/28344/7940990/photo-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf9705cc-jpg.html)

I'm still working on mine. I shortened the barrel a couple inches. Cut new dovetail for a Marble's ivory bead front sight. Still working on a rear sight. Browned the barrel with Birchwood-Casey Plum Brown. Polished hammer and breechblock by hand using Buck Arkansas stone then crocus cloth & WD40.

This rifle is/was a Model 1867-74. The difference being mostly the buttstock has a high comb design as opposed to the original Remington 1867 and Swedish 1867. Much better for shooting.

https://images15.fotki.com/v1674/photos/4/28344/7937087/rb001-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/8sept09/rb001jpg.html)

https://images14.fotki.com/v1668/photos/4/28344/7937087/rb007-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/8sept09/rb007jpg.html)

I made a couple cheater pins for working on the RB.

https://images42.fotki.com/v1640/photos/4/28344/8473790/DSCF9856-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/rb/dscf9856.html)

https://images46.fotki.com/v677/photos/4/28344/7940990/DSCF9868rb2-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf9868rb2jpg.html)

[corbinace]

Thank you for the tutorial and the ideas Dutchman.

[lar45]

Thank you very much for the pics, that helps a lot. I should have an assortment of spring wire around somewhere.

[lar45]

299411

I'm trying some Lee 50-360 Minnie's and some round ball gallery loads today. I powder coated them to try and get closer to the .505" groove diameter.

[lar45]

I found some .047" spring wire.
I bent a new spring copying the original profile..
The trigger pull is at 5# now..
I also polished the hammer spring.

[marlinman93]

I found some .047" spring wire.
I bent a new spring copying the original profile..
The trigger pull is at 5# now..
I also polished the hammer spring.

Sounds great!

[Dutchman]

As long as we're on the subject of 12,7x44R rolling blocks....

12,7x44R Swedish rolling block
30" barrel sporter

Chronographed with 1867 Remington sporter
using Doudna 450 grain FN bullets .510".
All are excellent loads.
Blackpowder loads uses vegetable wad card
on top of powder (Buffalo Arms).
Cases - reformed .348 Winchester
Standard primer for Unique & XMP5744
Magnum primer for blackpowder

12.5 grs. Unique = 1074 FPS average
very accurate load

24 grs. XMP5744 = 1089 FPS average
26 grs. XMP5744 = 1151 FPS average
27 grs. XMP5744 = 1211 FPS average Do not exceed
70 grs. FFg = 1214 FPS average


350gr FN (Doudna) .510"
29 grs XMP5744 = 1337 fps average Do not exceed
44.44 extreme spread
18.02 std deviation
This is a very accurate load in my 1867 sporter

Using Accurate 5744 the cases showed no signs of excess pressure and the primers were rounded. Since I found black powder equivalent loads I went no further.

My rifle land diameter is .477" and groove diameter is .500" measured at the muzzle.

I have no idea what mold these are from. They were purchased decades ago! 350 gr & 450 gr.
https://images15.fotki.com/v1673/photos/4/28344/8473790/bullet2-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/rb/bullet2.html)

https://images14.fotki.com/v1300/photos/2/28344/1097595/74a-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/1874/74a.html)

[Dutchman]

A lesson in case length caution in the 12,7x44R rolling block.

Breechblock required just a touch of pressure to close. That SHOULD have been noticed. Two and two were not added until this happened. The case mouth had NO ROOM TO RELEASE the bullet. No matter what anybody else says about what length is ~correct~ for these rifles you must figure this out for YOUR rifle. They are not all the same. They were built in a time when quality control inspection hadn't been perfected. Your breechblock MUST FREELY CLOSE without resistance. This case shown was a black powder load.

https://images14.fotki.com/v1315/photos/4/28344/8473790/DSCF9748rb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/rb/dscf9748rb.html)

https://images14.fotki.com/v26/photos/4/28344/8473790/DSCF9777rb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/rb/dscf9777rb.html)

https://images15.fotki.com/v1624/photos/4/28344/7940990/photo-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf9733z-jpg.html)

This is why I disassembled this rifle down to the bare receiver. To inspect everything with a magnifying glass.

https://images46.fotki.com/v101/photos/4/28344/7940990/DSCF9817rb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf9817rbjpg.html)

https://images46.fotki.com/v297/photos/4/28344/8473790/DSCF9827rb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/rb/dscf9827rb.html)

https://images12.fotki.com/v1580/photos/4/28344/7940990/DSCF9825rb-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/12-7rb/dscf9825rbjpg.html)

https://images51.fotki.com/v733/photos/4/28344/8473790/DSCF9949-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/rb/dscf9949-jpg.html)

https://images14.fotki.com/v1241/photos/2/28344/413241/85a-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/1885_swedish_artill/85a.html)

[lar45]

I can't get mine to chamber a round with .512 bullets. So I sized the top of the case in a 500S&W sizer and tried some .501" bullets to have something to shoot. My bore is .477x.505" . I have some 50-360 hb Minnie's loaded to try, but life got in the way yesterday. Hopefully it won't rain all day today.
I guess I could Beagle a .500 mold and try those.
It was shooting very high, so I put a new front sight on. I'll have to get it tweaked in today and see if I guessed close enough on the height.

[lar45]

299456

I got a little shooting in today.
I tried some powder coated .502 round balls with 9 gn of unique. The rb shot okay for 25yds, left target.
Next was a powder coated 50-360 hollow base Minnie. I tried 33gn on IMR4198 , from pet loads, it gave 1507fps. Middle target. Probably going too fast. I'll try less powder and shoot again.
Last was a .501-420. 28gn of 4198 gave 1315fps and stacked 5 shots fairly tight, right target.
I guessed too high on the front sight and had to place a target above these to aim at.
I guess I should have just ordered an assortment...

The 5# trigger was soooo much better to use.

[lar45]

https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/src/Primary/354/354276.jpg

The stock sights are not really the best on this rifle. My eyes are getting older and can't focus as clearly as they used to also...
What would you think about this set of sights?
I'm wondering if the rear would fit the dovetail slot in the rifle? - I checked and it's a 1/2" slot for the rear.
What I probably really need is a good vernier tang peep sight.

[lar45]

https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/src/Primary/135/135512.jpg

This looks a little better, except I'd have to drill and tap a hole for it.

[vagrantviking]

Hopefully you can find one like that with enough height. Some have extended stem pieces.
I'd look at MVA or something similar myself

[Dutchman]

On the m/1867 rifles the date of mfg is on the bottom of the barrel under the forearm.

https://images15.fotki.com/v1664/photos/4/28344/9869940/DSCF9918-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/rolling-block/dscf9918.html)

[lar45]

299553

Midway sure has quick shipping.
Now I need to get a new tang screw.
I'm guessing it's metric. Anybody know off hand the correct size, or a source?
I've got an Ace hardware up the road, I might have to build one.
It measures .246x27tpi

[Red River Rick]

....I'm guessing it's metric. Anybody know off hand the correct size, or a source?
I've got an Ace hardware up the road, I might have to build one.
It measures .246x27tpi

M6 x 1MM

[lar45]

Thanks Rick

I Beagled the Lee C501-440rf with 2 layers of aluminum tape, and cast a bunch with pure lead. Then pan lubed with the new BAC, no gas check. Loaded with 28gn IMR4198 for 1211 fps. Shot a couple of targets tweaking in the new peep sight.
299555
75 yds.

[marlinman93]

I can't get mine to chamber a round with .512 bullets. So I sized the top of the case in a 500S&W sizer and tried some .501" bullets to have something to shoot. My bore is .477x.505" . I have some 50-360 hb Minnie's loaded to try, but life got in the way yesterday. Hopefully it won't rain all day today.
I guess I could Beagle a .500 mold and try those.
It was shooting very high, so I put a new front sight on. I'll have to get it tweaked in today and see if I guessed close enough on the height.

If I had a .505" groove I wouldn't even want to shoot a .512" bullet down the bore if it could chamber it. That's way too large. I'd buy a sizing die for .505" and size them to fit the groove.

[lar45]

I ordered a push through sizer from NOE. The biggest they had was .504", so I'll just lap it out.

[lar45]

I lapped the die out to .507", cast some 500gn bullets, pan lubed with new BAC and sized them. Just tried 5 rounds and they tumbled. So it looks like the 42" twist isn't happy with 500s.

299679

[lar45]

Made a new tang screw to fit the Marbles peep sight.
301153

301154

I picked up a M6x1 cap screw at Home Depot, turned it down with a drill and file. Cut the slot with a hack saw. Then flame blued.

[RustyReel]

Made a new tang screw to fit the Marbles peep sight.
301153

301154

I picked up a M6x1 cap screw at Home Depot, turned it down with a drill and file. Cut the slot with a hack saw. Then flame blued.

Wow, that's some pretty nice work with a drill and a file.