38-55 Low Pressure Loads

[CoryT]

Hi all, I am looking for some information regarding safe pressure loads for smokeless in an old Marlin 1893 (1908-1910) marked “For Black Powder”. Specifically using the Lee .379-250 or Lyman 375248 molds in soft cast with IMR4198. Cases are Winchester at 2.085” and WLR or Fed 210M primers. My research on this site is indicating that things should be safe at 18.5-22.0gr but am wondering if anyone with far more knowledge can tell me otherwise. I’ve no intention of stressing this old girl.
To date I’ve only shot black through it.
Thanks

[50target]

I don't have it handy but I seem to remember Ken Water's Pet Loads showed 21.0 grains of IMR 4198 with your Lyman bullet Level 1 guns like Stevens 44 the weakest action so should be OK for your gun.


I've shot that load in my Stevens 44 with no ill effect.

Bob

[Pereira]

I shoot a 260 gr. cast over 21 grs. IMR4198 in my Marlin Cowboy.
The previous owner said that was his best long range load.
It is pretty mild.

RP

[MarkP]

I shoot 18.0 gr IMR 4198 in my M94 Chief Crazy Horse with the LEE 379-250. It is 1,400 ish out of the 24" bbl.

[CoryT]

Thanks guys. I’m gonna load some up and do accuracy testing. I trust that 18.0-21.0 will all stay within the pressure limits of this old black powder girl.
Cory

[pworley1]

Lyman Cast #3 gives starting load for the Lyman 375248 as 25g for 4198.

[TGM]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists loads for the 375248 bullets, using different powders which are Red Dot 6.0 to 8.5 gr., 700X 6.0 to 8.5 gr, Green Dot 6.5 to 9.0 Gr., PB 6.5 to 9.5 Gr, and Unique 7.0 to 9.5 Gr. . When I wanted a mild load in my 38-55 I would use Unique.

TGM

[CoryT]

I have the Lyman 49th as well as the Cast Bullet #4. I realize the starting load listed in both is 24.0 of 4198, however this is for modern rifles, not a 113 year old Marlin stamped “For Black Powder”. I guess what I’m asking is if anybody has the ability or software to run the numbers and see if the pressure curves are within original BP loadings.

[CoryT]

Also, Unique has not been seen around here in a long time.
Cory

[Kraschenbirn]

Thanks guys. I’m gonna load some up and do accuracy testing. I trust that 18.0-21.0 will all stay within the pressure limits of this old black powder girl.
Cory

IMHO you're on the right track. Not a lever action but FYI: 20.6 gr. IMR4198 (literally!) duplicates the ballistics...velocity and POI...of 52 gr. of Old Eynsford FFg in my Taylor & Co. Highwall.

Bill

[CoryT]

Excellent information. Exactly the type of information I am seeking. Thank you very much.
Cory

[CoryT]

Also for thought, I’ve just had a buddy locate some Universal powder in an “out of the way” store. In a couple weeks I’ll have it in my hands and will try working up some low pressure loads with it as well. Thinking 8.0-9.5gr range with the Lee 379-250 mold as dropped (.3805”).
Thoughts anyone? Please remember this 1893 model is a black powder barrel.

[1006]

10.0 grain of Universal Clays gave me 1142fps with a 260 grain gas checked lead bullet in my 375Winchester. It should be the same in a 38-55. I used a standard pistol primer.

Someone mentioned in another thread/post that Universal Clays is “position sensitive”. I did not notice any problems, but it made me wonder.

[CoryT]

Ya, I’ve seen mention of it being position sensitive as well. Will have to check on that at some point myself.

[CoryT]

I’ve recently started loading my .375W (m94BB) with .38-55 Winchester brass at 3.08” using soft cast (9-10bhn) Lyman 375248 and IMR4198 powder. Still working on best load for accuracy with velocity as I’ll be hunting with thissun. Lol

[CoryT]

Well I think I got a load. Volumetric measure of Lee 2.8cc dipper with Pyrodex RS Select in a WW case (2.08”), F210M primer and Lyman 375248 as cast (.377”) produced a sub 1” 5-shot group at 25yds. All shots touching. Was quite happy. Next trip is 100yds (no 50yd range available). Not sure on speed but I suspect around 1275/1300fps. Boolit hardness is around 8bhn or so.

[Texas by God]

What lube did you use with the Pyrodex RS?

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[CoryT]

Lube was a homemade concoction of beeswax, rendered bear fat, toilet ring wax, JPW, 2-stroke mix oil and a few blue crayons. It worked great with absolutely no leading. I made up about a gallon so I wont have to do it again in this lifetime. I’m not a fan of heat and JPW. Lol

[yeahbub]

If you're using Pyrodex, make sure to clean, clean, clean assiduously and check it again few days after. My experience with it and 777 are that it is oxidizer rich and will cause rust. My small-bore muzzle-loader was a rusty water pipe after some hours, set aside for cleaning later that day. The patches were torn to shreds as I attempted to clean the barrel. Astonishing to me, as BP never did anything like this. I got the rust out and the barrel shoots okay, but the surface shows numerous tiny pits which fortunately are of little consequence accuracy-wise but cause more rapid fouling/more frequent cleanings. This from a "sulfur-free" propellant (and it is), thus intimating that it is less corrosive than real BP. Hogwash. Never using that stuff again.

There is another BP substitute which works well in cartridges which shows no inclination to corrosion, which is American Pioneer Powder in 2f and 3f. Granulation is pretty coarse and APP 3f looks like BP 1f, but it works well and I favor it for C&B revolvers. Cleans with water and benefits from a little compression. No idea if it's available to you there, but it's a thought.

Right now, one of my favorites is AA5744 for approximating BP ballistics in BP cartridges with cast boolits. Bulky and not very position sensitive, I get good results on target. I haven't personally used 4198, but on the Shooter's World burn rate chart, IMR4198, H4198 are on the same line with AA5744 shown as a touch faster. Either should serve well.

[dogmower]

The rule of thumb I've been taught is that if you load IMR4198 at 0.3 times the weight of the original blackpowder load, you should be safe and in the same ballpark, pressure wise.
So, if the original load was say, 85 grains of BP, the smokeless load would be 0.3x85, or 25.5 grains. FWIW, this formula has worked well for me in the 577/450 martini and the snider enfield, as well as the Dutch Beaumont and the 71/84 mauser.

[jgstrug]

The rule of thumb I've been taught is that if you load IMR4198 at 0.3 times the weight of the original blackpowder load, you should be safe and in the same ballpark, pressure wise.
So, if the original load was say, 85 grains of BP, the smokeless load would be 0.3x85, or 25.5 grains. FWIW, this formula has worked well for me in the 577/450 martini and the snider enfield, as well as the Dutch Beaumont and the 71/84 mauser.If that is correct that comes to 16.5 gr; you are saying this should be safe on pressure and about the same velocity as the original black powder load?

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