310 cadet mystery.....

[trails4u]

So long story short, I'm attempting to form 310 cadet brass (thin rimmed) from 7.62 nagant brass. Easy enough right? Well... I've acquired a set of 310 dies, originally made by NDFS (North Devon Firearm Service) in the UK. They look great....BUT, after disassembling and cleaning, etc. the sizing/depriming die has a .250dia neck sizing button in it?? Obviously that isn't right...so I removed it (didn't matter, it didn't touch the brass anyway) and sized a couple cases just to see what I actually have.

Ended up with:

.388 rim diameter
.042 rim thickness
.352 base dimeter
.314 neck od
.285 neck id

length, as I trimmed to, is 1.120.

So....my questions are: Do I have some weird wildcat 310 cadet dies? Do I have the correct die body with the incorrect neck sizing button? <obviously the button is wrong, but is the die body correct?>. And...any suggestions where I might find a correct neck sizing button?

Unfortunately don't have the rifle in hand yet....but trying to get ahead of brass supply, and maybe even be able to supply brass for others at a reasonable price.

Any advice welcome and appreciated!

Trails..

[skeettx]

They might work and as for the expander, You might have Morris Short dies or rook dies

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/my-latest-4-gun-bsa-martini-rifle-project-297-230-morris-297-250-rook.1127253/

[trails4u]

It's definitely not bottlenecked, so rules out the rook or the morris...I'll try to get some photos up tomorrow. The seating die is an interesting bird as well....hard to describe but has a spring loaded rod that runs the length of it, protruding from the bottom of the seating stem all the way through the top of the die. Never seen anything like it.... ????

And FWIW...all three dies are stamped 310 c k. I do wonder what the 'k' represents...but don't seem to find much info out there on the NDFS dies....

[john.k]

Simplest plan is to alter the dies to suit what you want.......may be able to be reamed with solid carbide,or maybe need to be softened ,and rehardened after alteration......I just use 32/20 cases and some old Lee dies altered to suit my method.........the Lee dies were so soft ,I dont think they ever had any hardening....anyway,I just use them soft ,and no wear is apparent all these years

[kenton]

Perhaps when they were last used before being sold the person using them was expanding the neck on something like a 22 hornet for reasons we can only guess at.

[barrabruce]

25-20 dies maybe? 25-310 kilbounre. Dunno

No use doing anything till you get your rifle then do a chamber cast.

That should tell you what you need to end up with.
Make brass to suit chamber and bullet to suit case inside diameter and throat
Brass rims will only need to thinned depending how deep the reamer was put into the chamber and breach to that measurement + a couple of thou clearance.
As far as I know.

Or just waste time and money and commodities.
They do vary quite a bit.
Shoot excellent with a good bore and ammo that fit’s.

After you are done the Ultimate is to cast ,re prime brass and finger seat bullets into the used brass.
You only need some way of getting a primer in and out.
And finger lube bullets.And drop a few grains of powder in it.


More than likely need a whole workshop to do it thou.

[trails4u]

Thanks for the replies guys.... It is indeed a mystery, although I'm leaning toward the die body being correct to the 310 cadet, but with simply a misplaced neck expander button on it.

The brass, as formed with no expander, looks like this:

299221

So not much off being close to 310 cadet, just with the wrong inside neck diameter. (.286, as opposed to something closer to .312 or so, depending on the mold being used). Interestingly, the expander die appears correct, with a step around .315, so maybe working OK for a heeled bullet.

299222

The real mystery to me is what I assume to be the seating die.

299223

It's obviously been modified (threads turned off the stem) but what's up with the spring-loaded rod running internally the length of the die?? Anyone seen something like this before??

299224

I know the rifle is original to 310 cadet (thin rimmed) so not so much worried about being able to load for it. It will come with a good supply of brass, so no worries with being able to shoot. My question is more about what these dies might have been modified for....as much for my curiosity as anything else. If they are useful for forming 310 cadet from 7.62 nagant, that's great..I can make brass pretty cheap. If not...I'd just like to figure out what they are!

Thanks! Trails...

[1Hawkeye]

Isn't .310 ck the .310 cattle killer made by Greener? But I thought it was a .310 bullet used in it?

[trails4u]

Hawkeye....... Ya might be onto something buddy. Doesn't explain the .250 neck expander button, but might explain why the sizing die is sizing too small at the neck as the standard 310 brass would be way too long. Hhhmmm....

[uscra112]

Does this round use a heeled bullet?

[trails4u]

Yes, it does use a heeled bullet....

[uscra112]

Just in the last couple of weeks I made a seater/crimper for a Lyman tong tool for the old .32 Long Colt. Another heeled bullet round. Rather than being fixed, the seater stem is spring-loaded, to keep the bullet firmly in place while the die crimps the brass around it. A side benefit is that the spring pushes the finished round back out of the die, rather than depending solely on the hook to pull it out.

Maybe what you've got there is something similar?

[1Hawkeye]

Yep it's a 120gr heeled bullet. Hey maybe somebody was trying to convert the dies to a .25 wildcat or .25-20 ss or something?

[trails4u]

Just in the last couple of weeks I made a seater/crimper for a Lyman tong tool for the old .32 Long Colt. Another heeled bullet round. Rather than being fixed, the seater stem is spring-loaded, to keep the bullet firmly in place while the die crimps the brass around it. A side benefit is that the spring pushes the finished round back out of the die, rather than depending solely on the hook to pull it out.

Maybe what you've got there is something similar?

This seems to have merit.... The springloaded rod is adjustable for length from the top, so perhaps adjustable for tension as well... But Holy Cow, what a bunch of really good machine work to create it, if that's what it is. And the rod is quite narrow (maybe .150 at best) so do wonder about that...

[uscra112]

Well, mine took a solid hour on my (old, slow) lathe, but it's a key part of my field reloading kit for the .32 Colt.

Does the seater squeeze the case mouth down any? Like a neck sizer would?

[trails4u]

Well, mine took a solid hour on my (old, slow) lathe, but it's a key part of my field reloading kit for the .32 Colt.

Does the seater squeeze the case mouth down any? Like a neck sizer would?

Don't know yet.... I don't have a rifle, nor bullets in hand yet. I was just trying to get ahead of the curve and create
'standard' 310 cadet brass from 7.62 nagant brass. So found these dies on ASSRA site and made a deal for them.

I'm starting to think they may have at least originally been 310 cattle killer dies, but maybe modified again from that.

[6string]

Nice to see somebody in upstate SC doing something cool like this!
I was beginning to think everyone here just shoots ARs, AKs, and polymer!

I can't wait to see what you come up with once all the pieces come together.

[Bent Ramrod]

I found a box of Bertram .310 “Cattle Killer” brass. It’s quite a bit shorter than the regular empty shells I have, from Bertram and Eley.

I don’t know the exact setup for the .310 caliber, but the usual cattle killing setup in this country used a blank cartridge to drive a captive rod or prong into the animal’s forehead. You loaded a blank, held the device between the cow’s eyes, hit the rear end with a hammer, and down she went. Nobody wanted accidentally discharged or ricocheting bullets flying around the slaughterhouse.

Your die with the constriction and plunger might crimp a wad over the powder for such a blank. Removing the bushing and replacing those spring loaded parts with a regular seating stem might be all you need to do.

I have an old C-H three-die set for the .310. I rarely need to use the sizer or expander. The fired cases generally come out of the chamber expanded very little and the heels of the boolits from my Group Buy Lee mould and an anonymous single-cavity mould I found somewhere seat very securely into the fired cases.

[cedarshaft]

trails4u congrats on the Cadet,,,hope it is all original like min. I only have 20 rounds thru mine so far--this is what I did and works GREAT--Arsenal bullet mold for cadet with heel base. I trimmed Nagant case down to 1.126 thats longest to fit in chamber. I got larger sizing buttons from Redding and turned/sanded down to .312 --used a Redding die for 7.5 Swiss without deprime pin to run .312 sizer button into nagant case. Any Redding sizer die in around .308--30-06 will work ( you are only using the sizer button in die to move brass),,Redding dies have button on bottom of decap rod where you need it. You should reduce size of tighting nut in front of button tho. To get the correct O.D. on outside of case I use a Lee push through cast bullet sizer .324 -8mm I will bump loaded round into that bullet sizer just far enough to go over length of bullet inside. I know it sounds strange but it all works perfect for me. Just loaded 50 with 4.3 Unique wating for nice range weather.

[cedarshaft]

The Arsenal brand heeled bullet mold runs .313 heeled area dia. -- .324 on driving bands---.319 in front of driving bands ,, then tapers to bullet tip.

[uscra112]

Not strange at all. That's the same last step as we use loading .32 Long Colt, save that in our case we use a hardened steel drill bushing instead of the bullet sizing die. Letter O is .316, 8.0mm is .315. Chamber in my 1915 Favorite is a bit over .317.

[Black Beard]

I have successfully used Lee 7.62 Nagant sizing dies for 310 cadet (using modified 32-20 cases). If you draw the profile of a 7.62 Nagant case and a 310 cadet case they are so close (over the bit that gets sized) it doesn't matter. They work fine with 3.5 gr of N320.

[barrabruce]

300596
Cattle killer used in ww1 with shortened 310 cases.
Used to put down the injured horses.

[marlinman93]

Making brass for a rifle you don't have in hand yet might not be the best idea. A lot of 310 Cadets have had their chambers modified, so it could be futile to make brass for it, and then discover it's not the original chamber when it arrives. Plus it's always best to test fit your brass to determine how well it chambers, extracts, etc., and then move on to making the rest the same way.
I've occasionally in distant past formed up a bunch of brass, assuming it would fit fine. Then test one, and realize I had to adjust things to make them all fit before loading.

[trails4u]

Well...perhaps to bring this to a close, or maybe, even better....generate additional discussion, I have achieved success with the 310 cadet project. Using nagant revolver brass and a heeled bullet (.323x.316, I believe) I have successfully loaded 50 and have test fired the rifle to great success. Ended up abandoning the NDFS dies.....but by the grace of a very generous member here came into a 310 tool and various dies that I was able to mix and match to get a neck ID right at .313.....works like a charm! I believe the combination was a 30-40 krag expander rod/button in a 30 carbine die body, which was necessary for the shorter die body length.

We do all love a happy ending....right!? :D

[uscra112]

Yes indeed! Show us your targets, now.

[trails4u]

USCRA.....hope to share, perhaps the entire journey, with photos....sometime over the winter when things slow down here. I just got the rifle in hand a couple weeks ago and she's a beauty! All original, great bore, great wood and unmolested in its original 310 chambering. So far I know it's 'minute of 6" plate at 60yrd' offhand...but do hope to put it to paper at some point over the winter. :) I'm a happy camper!

[trails4u]

And I'll go ahead and call him out...... Many, many thanks to kywoodwrkr here for a very creative and innovative solution to getting my inside case ID right!! He's not on the good guy list....he's on the GREAT guy list!!

[john.k]

You need to be aware there are two barrel sizes when reading online information...... the most common Cadet is the BSA with the windage adjustable rear sight......on this model bore is .310", groove dia is .321"...........on the earlier models with the ladder rear sight ,bore is .310",but groove is .316"...........so a .316 mould is going to be undersized for a second model BSA with .321 groove.

[trails4u]

You need to be aware there are two barrel sizes when reading online information...... the most common Cadet is the BSA with the windage adjustable rear sight......on this model bore is .310", groove dia is .321"...........on the earlier models with the ladder rear sight ,bore is .310",but groove is .316"...........so a .316 mould is going to be undersized for a second model BSA with .321 groove.

It is the .321 groove barrel. The .316 I quoted above was the heel diameter, which I'll have to double check. The .323 is the bullet diameter...

[pworley1]

I make my brass from 32-20 winchester and use the RCBS heeled bullet mold. The combination works well in my cadets. CH4D made my dies.

[1Hawkeye]

I make my brass from 32-20 winchester and use the RCBS heeled bullet mold. The combination works well in my cadets. CH4D made my dies.

Ditto, I did the same thing when I had mine If you shorten a .32-20 case by .20" its the same length as a .310 cadet.
I was using 4.5 grs of unique and the sights were in agreement with the load and distance. I miss that little rifle.

[trails4u]

The beauty of the nagant brass.....at least in today's environment...is that it's available and relatively cheap. The process isn't much harder. Basically trim to length, size for inside neck ID and load. Admittedly I went around my elbow to get to my backside...but not without purpose. I wanted to learn how to make/form it to 'spec' for the heeled bullet, as several in my crowd own and shoot them in original 310 configuration. Now I know I can, know how, have the tools....and brass to last us all our lifetimes! :)

[john.k]

The 310 Greener was designed as a target cartridge that was accurate with smokeless powder,which wasnt all that easy to achieve in 1900.The heel crimped bullet was to ensure even ignition of the powder.