Old Belgian Double

[Wolfdog91]

Went with my friend over to her granddads yesterday to visit for Easter. Me and him always end up talking guns for a hour or so and today he asked it I'd oil his guns for him ,him being 90 it's a little hard for him to do it properly. Well he has this old double barrel 12ga that caught my eye and after he gave a little story on it ( apparently it was found in a briar thick and was brought back and had a hand made stock put on it, supposed to have killed many a deer out to 80yd with 00buck shot). Well I cleaned it up best I could and after my freind mentioned I might be able to, he said he'd really appreciate it if I could mabye try and find some info about this gun. I tried looking up the various markings but wasn't super successful. Kept getting stuff made in the 1890's but that's about it. No real values or anything. Aaannny how wanted to see if any of y'all might know something.
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[Dutchman]

Greetings Wolfdog91...

https://images49.fotki.com/v1679/photos/4/28344/9895637/91fxx-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/91fxx.html)

Patent Decb 20, 1892----- https://patents.google.com/patent/US488366?oq=pieper
Its in the US Patent Office database submitted by Henri Pieper of Belgium.

Says: Enterprise.... something.... The fact that its in English plus the other writing on it are English tells me this was an export shotgun. The name Enterprise [something] is a "model". What bothers me is the "twist finish". That suggests Damascus steel barrels, though I can't tell from the photos. If the barrels are Damascus twist then this shotgun should be retired as not safe to shoot with modern ammo. Its not just an issue of the twist barrels but considering the AGE of the shotgun and the physical deterioration BETWEEN the Damascus layers of steel. Corrosion = weakness = blown up barrels. Hang this ratty old shotgun over the fireplace and leave it there. Modern value nil due to very poor condition.

The other markings on each barrel are Belgian proofs for each barrel showing the chamber lenghth and gauge and choke.

http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20henri%20gb.htm

https://images46.fotki.com/v1671/photos/4/28344/9895637/7a394xx-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/7a394xx.html)

Dutch

[Wayne Smith]

I agree with Dutch with one exception - it can be re-proofed. In looking for information for my Damascus gun a European gunsmith told me of his experience getting an old gun re-proofed for 20ga 3inch chambering. It passed fine. When they were cleaning up the barrels they discovered that it was Damascus - both barrels. Given the condition of that gun I would agree with Dutch that even if proofed it would probably not pass.

[Tripplebeards]

A lot of work to be done before I’d even consider loading light loads for it. I went through my 10 gauge the winter before last and used it turkey hunting last spring to take a nice double bearded gobbler. I used FG black powder lower pressure hand loads. I have some pretty deep pitting in my Damascus barrels. I had it looked at by a Smith and was told it was still OK to shoot. I just would never push the envelope on a neat old gun. Season opens Wednesday and it’s going to rain so it won’t be getting used first season. Maybe in the later seasons. I went through and disassembled every part and piece on the shotgun. Repaired and refinished the wood furniture. I also re blued the whole gun and tried to give a vintage and “not perfect” updated job to it. If yours is Damascus is a different type then mine. I believe they refer to it as twist rolled which is marked on the barrels. My style of Damascus is easily seen. Mine was also missing a hammer. I bought a pair from Dixie gun works and had a Smith install them. From the release lever in the forearm I was told it is either an 1873 or 1874 model if I remember. Shot mine last week with 1 5/8oz #5’s and FG. It’s a hoot to shoot.

My Charles Daly 10 gauge was almost as ruff as yours before I spent a week or two restoring it after the new hammers were installed. I had huge gouges of wood removed around the side plates and looked like someone scribed on the side plates with a screw driver. I filled in the cracks and gouges I couldn’t lift with acraglass and sawdust. Some real budda owned it before me. I bought it at a garage sale in the 90’s for $45. It was rusted solid…but not anymore. It got a vinigar bath for days and then Oxpho blued. No where near perfect but it’s now a shooter with light loads that were intended for it back in the day. My dream was always to restore it and take a gobbler with it. Bucket list completed. It came along way from the wall hanger, or lamp, I was going to originally use it for.


https://i.imgur.com/vk9Wj8u.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FGlNS3R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tGXcXs0.jpg

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First time at the range with it last year testing black powder turkey loads…


https://i.imgur.com/xKGCDrZ.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/3bWSZll.jpg

Your gun barrel looks a lot more modern then mine. I have nothing stamped on my gun and barrels accept for “396” and “65” on one of the barrels. You have stamping all over the thing. I’m sure with research you can narrow the year and origin down.

Some of black powder hand loads I tested last week.

https://i.imgur.com/9mF5RiR.jpg

They sure don’t pattern anywhere close to modern choke guns. My right barrel is worthless. The left I would not want to rely on past 40 yards with my best patterning turkey loads I worked up.

[john.k]

One hammer welded on to the square would worry me as to the condition of the rest of the gun......the old rabbit ear guns are inherently dangerous for the hammers getting caught and firing the gun accidentally.

[john.k]

Incidentally,I read somewhere that a big steelworks in Liege made a number of different kinds of damascus ,and also made exclusive types for individual gun makers .........I had assumed damascus to be a sort of cottage industry thing,but the works made thousands of tons a year.......The description of the steelworks wasnt by someone gun savvy,and was a little incorrect IMHO,was more of a historical review.......I should have saved it.

[sigep1764]

Google "Enterpise Arms double barrel shotgun". Lots of info comes up matching the markings on your barrel. They were made in the 1890's with twist or Damascus barrels. Value about $200 in good condition.

[toot]

THAT IS A NICE ROLL CRIMP! what did you use / how did you do it?

[HWooldridge]

150 years ago, pretty much everyone owned a double barrel shotgun if they lived where they had to hunt for food. That being said, there were untold numbers imported from Europe prior to WW1. As with everything, some were better than others so it's probably best not to shoot any of them without a really sound inspection.

My dad had a single barrel 10 gauge come apart in his hands back in the mid 1950's - he was shooting black powder and assumed a seam in the barrel split. He carried little pieces of shrapnel in his left arm for the rest of his life. Have no idea who the maker was, only saw some of the pieces later when I was old enough to know what I was looking at; it was a very old gun - probably dated to the 1880's or thereabouts.

[Tripplebeards]

THAT IS A NICE ROLL CRIMP! what did you use / how did you do it?


Bought and used this one…

https://www.thereloadersnetwork.com/product/roll-crimper-quad-pin-10-gauge/

Thought I paid $39 for it last year? Maybe it was $49? I use it in a drill press. Tried it in a cordless drill once and it was almost impossible to get a nice even crimp. I drill press takes approx 3 seconds a hull. A cordless drill takes about 5 minutes each and a sore hand to boot.

[Eddie Southgate]

A lot of cheap Belgian guns had twist steel barrels , they were not Damascus . Twist was a thin steel tube wrapped in wire to make it look kinda like a form of Damascus. They were used on the cheapest guns they made. Most Belgian companies made good quality guns and very cheap guns . This one looks to be one of the cheap ones . I would not trust it . I owned a piper with good Damascus Chopper Lump barrels that had been cut short and used on a still . I was intending to re-tube it but someone stole it before I got around to it.


PS : I misstated the barrel construction type of the Pieper I owned , it was monobloc . The lump was made as a single piece rather than each tube having half a lump machined as part of the barrel.

[shortlegs]

Looking up twist finish belgium shot gun. " I have been told this means it not actually laminated steel made barrels but they put a finish on them to look like twist because the buyers did not trust the new stronger metals".
ieper was the largest Belgium, and possibly the world, gun manufacturer for a time. They were known to the first European mfg that used modern steels and machining methods. They weren't known to make fancy guns that had lots of engraving and expensive woods. I expect this is the reason they aren't known as a 'best' gun maker to collectors but, in my opinion they were safe serviceable guns. One of their best known guns was the 'Diana' model. It had the breech end of the barrels and the under lugs machined from one piece of steel, that should be stronger than brazing or soldering the parts together.

"Imitation Damascus Finishes were common at the time. I expect people were willing to pay a small extra for an imitation finish that looked like the more expensive Damascus barrels. If it was Steel that looked like Damascus, reputable dealers had a qualifier on them; something like 'Finish'.I've never seen the term 'Finish' on true Damascus, so it's probably steel".
I copied this from Shotgun World forum.

[Eddie Southgate]

One of their best known guns was the 'Diana' model. It had the breech end of the barrels and the under lugs machined from one piece of steel, that should be stronger than brazing or soldering the parts together.

This is what is referred to as monobloc Lump barrels . The lump was machined for the tubes that were silver soldered in. Most Piepers use a demi-block construction developed by Henri Pieper. The lump was machined as part of the barrels but unlike English lump barrels his slid together with a dovetail and were pinned and soldered. Monobloc isn't stronger that I have ever heard but it does make replacing a defective tube much easier and much much more affordable. Beretta claims to have invented the monobloc system so I guess they might would say it's stronger but I've not seen that in print.

Good Damascus was as strong as steel tubes when new and in good condition but can become unsafe with time and lack of care. If this gun is in shooting condition other than the barrel question and they really want to shoot it buy a set of sub gauge tubes . 20 gauge tubes would work , not cheap but it would be safe to shoot.

[pietro]

.

If guns could only talk - being found in some brush could very well mean it was discarded after some sort of illegal action was performed by it's owner.

It's typical of the inexpensive ($7 USD, +/- ca. 1900) Belgian-made shotguns made for the US hardware store trade around the early 1900's.

That gun appears to be well worn and the barrels may be off face (unsafe).

While it may be safely fired with special low-powered ammo after being checked for safety by a gunsmith familiar with double shotguns, your GF might want to have it as a memento of her grandpa, and his use of it.

.

[Wolfdog91]

Very interesting. Thank you everyone. I'll let him know about all of this !