600 Yard 308 Winchester

[Johnch]

As a fun project
I want to work on seeing how well I can get my Savage 110 in 308 Winchester to shoot
I am betting I will be the limiting factor

I have a OLDER Savage single shot 110 action ( small thread dia. ) that right now I have a 243 Winchester varmint barrel on it
This action never had a cut out for a magazine
15 or so years back I bought a almost new 22" Douglas Match barrel in 308 Winchester cut and treaded for the small thread Savage used
I never got around to using it and figure I need to as the great plans I had then didn't happen
I also have a Timney trigger on the rifle set to 12 oz ( I think )
Leupold 6.5 - 20 x 40 scope , again the scope is at least 15 years old , but should work
The stock is a glass bedded laminated stock I got from Midway LOL again about 15 years ago

So I plan on changing barrels

As I am planning on catching the bullets in my bullet trap
I was wondering if Lino would be a good choice for the alloy ?

Also I was thinking maybe a 180 gr - 200 gr GC cast bullet ?

I have a few NOE 311-195-RF
I was thinking of trying them and if they fit the chamber well
I would either buy one of those molds or do my best and cut one for my self

Would it be a good choice ?

I have 200 pieces of Winchester 308 Match brass
Federal 210 Match primers , not sure how old they are
But a price sticker of $18.99 is on top of each of the un opened boxes of 1000 primers
I think I got the brass and primers from Camp Perry when the matches were on

Also at least to start
I was going to use IMR 4895 as there is a couple of new 8 lb jugs on the shelf

Any other suggestions ?


John

[dverna]

Find the threads by Gibson on the .30 XBC

Also IIRC a poster Bama.

Good luck.

[charlie b]

Is your barrel a 1-10 twist? Do you use conventional lube or powder coat?

[Thumbcocker]

A search for Coats Brothers firearms on YouTube will get you videos where a .308 with boolits does very well at some long ranges. Can't remember if it was 500 yards but that is the number I seem to remember. Worth a look.

[725]

This sounds like a great project. The .308 is always a good choice. 20 years ago I went to Africa with my .308, and everything I sought died with one shot! Kudu, gemsbok, impala, blesbok, & warthog. I'll be following this one. Good luck.

[charlie b]

Why 600yd? Match shooting or just for fun?

[Larry Gibson]

If you intend to use cast bullet that are lubed;

I'm going to be honest. You've got everything there to reach 600 yards accurately with cast bullets except the barrel, the alloy, the bullet and the powder. You might get to 500 yards with those, maybe.

At 22" the barrel is too short. Yes, I know the current fad is short barreled rifles and 22" is the factory 'standard" length for a 308W sporter. Barrels 22" and shorter they may be okay for short range work and/or with jacketed bullets but you are wanting to get to 600 yards with a cast bullet. Barrel length equals more velocity and velocity is needed for a bullet to remain sonic to 600 yards, especially a cast bullet with their attendant not very efficient BCs. The shorter the barrel the harder/faster the bullet must be pushed to achieve a correct velocity level. The harder/faster you accelerate a cast bullet the more it can be deformed (unbalanced). Additionally, if the barrel has a 10" twist the problem is further exasperated because you run into the RPM Threshold at a lower velocity that if the twist was 12". I found, after much actual testing at 600 yards a 26" barrel with a 10" twist is the minimal length needed to achieve enough velocity (usually around 1950 fps with a bore rider bullet such as the NOE 311-195-SF) to maintain sonic at 600 yards, maybe. My long range 30 caliber cast bullet rifles have 26 - 32" barrels with 12 - 16" twists.

If you are serious about shooting cast at 600 yards with that action, trigger, scope and stock I would look seriously at saving for a new quality barrel of 28 - 32" with a 12" twist. That will do very nicely with cast and 600 yards and would be superb with match jacketed bullets, especially the 175 - 178 gr match bullets. Yes, it can be "fun" casually plinking away at rocks or steel at 500 - 600 yards with cast [I certainly do enough of it] but from the list of equipment it appears you want to be a bit serious about it. Being able to hit a smaller target [I use a 12" steel dinger] consistently at 600 yards with cast bullets is a lot more fun. A better barrel, more appropriate barrel is suggested.

The linotype alloy is not the best for HV cast bullets contrary to popular belief. It is too rich in antimony and thus, too brittle. The best alloy to use is Lyman #2 alloy. It has a proper balance of antimony to tin. I WQ my HV bullet out of the mould. Suggest you use the linotype to make #2 alloy. for 10 lbs of #2 alloy just need mix 4.5 lbs lino with 5 lbs lead and 1/2 lb tin. If you've not used #2 alloy before you'll be amazed at the quality of bullet you get.

The bullet has several problems if you are going to push it hard. The bearing surface is too short for the bullet length. The larger lube groove carries way more lube than is needed. The large deep lube groove leaves a very small column of alloy to support the majority of bullet mass under acceleration and will/can collapse under that acceleration. The BC, listed at .269 estimated, will more than likely be around .230 - .240 when pushed above 2000 fps based on my experience actually measuring BCs. If you keep velocities down around 2000 - 2200 fps the cast bullet with the highest BC [.340 - .360 measured] is the 311299. It will hold sonic to 600 yards at that velocity level from 12" twist barrels of 26" length in .308W.

4895 powder is a great cast bullet powder in the .308W with normal cast bullet loads. However, it is not the best for pushing cast bullets to higher velocity. With cast bullets you want to keep the acceleration rate [time/pressure curve] as slow as possible to achieve the desired velocity with accuracy. Using what we have many times will not get us where we want to go. I suggest slower burning powders that give 80 - 100% load density such as IMR4350, AA4350, H4831SC, RL19.

Lastly, with cast bullets in a .308W you can get away with a lot more at 500 yards than you can at 600 yards. That difference of 100 yards doesn't seem like much but it does and can make a big difference. You must also be very particular about bullet casting quality and selection.

If you are going to PC the bullets then most of the above still applies but a bit higher velocities can be achieved with sufficient accuracy.

[charlie b]

I can verify what Larry just wrote as well. The 1-10 twist puts you at a disadvantage with cast.

I can get to 500yd if I push them hard enough (>2000fps), but, at 600 they are not doing well. That 100yd is where they go transonic and it messes with the bullets' stability. I have been trying to go a bit faster with powder coated bullets, but, it is still 'on the edge' at 600yd.

Mine is a Savage 12BVSS, 26" bbl, 1-10 twist. The bullets I use most are the XCB and Acc31-210E (Eagan MX3), powder coated. Both do really well out to 500yd. The 210gn is a long bore riding bullet and is a tight fit in the bore. IMHO, the nose fit is more important than the size of the driving bands. I have used 4198, 3031, 4895, 4166 and Varget. All do ok. Best accuracy for both is at 1800-2000fps.

I have been pushing the XCB to higher speeds to see where my real limit is. 2400fps seems to be the point where accuracy suffers with the PC bullets so will see what I can do.

FWIW, I consider 1.5MOA acceptable accuracy with cast and my goal is consistent 1MOA. Not there yet either :)


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[Johnch]

Thanks
I will do some research

John