The NEW Jerusalem

[augercreek]

According to John in the book of revelation he see a New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. It's dimensions are 1500 miles or what ever the term is, a cube that is where all believers will live. Is this all there is, just a place to live? Will there be parks, mountains to climb, places to fish, or anything else? I just have a hard time thinking we'll just be sitting around playing harps and singing praises.

[Ickisrulz]

The description of the new earth in Revelations is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally (much the same way Jesus' depictions of hell are symbolic).

There is no way the redeemed will spend all their time sitting around singing praises. It would be unfulfilling and a waste of our time and potential. We will have lives to live and things to do. God will not give his people an eternity of boredom. He is not like that.

[dannyd]

The New Jerusalem is going to be a real place and Hell is now a real place. You will have the mind of Christ and will not be concerned with the things you did on earth before the Rapture. I take the King James Bible literally just like any other Technical Manual. Your mileage may differ.

[1hole]

No one will be bored with the new heaven on earth.

The present "heaven" (Paradise) is a spiritual place where the disembodied spirits/souls of God's people are enjoying a spiritual life but it is not our final literal heaven on earth. The present "hell" (Hades) is a spiritual place where the disembodied spirits/souls of the lost are not enjoying any part of their existence but it is not the literal Lake of Fire hell. Both the saved and lost will eventually have eternal living bodies either on the heaven of a remade earth or the of Lake of Fire hell. Neither group will be bored.

God gave me a love for music and a very musical wife mate. But he did not give me any talent for playing music and I don't believe he will jam being a musician on me in the afterlife. The childish paintings we see of sweet adult female angels and little child angels flitting around on clouds while playing harps comes from Roman Catholic myths starting around 1000 AD; those paintings are pretty but they have no foundation in scripture.

I don't know if the eternal Jerusalem will be a 1,500 hundred mile square block or a pyramid. Either way, it will certainly make for a big city but I'm a country boy and I hope I won't have to spend a lot of eternal time in a city that big.

We are of earth, Jesus made spiritual angels in a spiritual heaven and made men from the dust of the earth. Thus, earth is our home. This is where we belong, not standing on the wispy edges of clouds; how angels live is meaningless to us. We are human, we are not and never will be angels. I believe our eternity with God in the final heaven on earth will fulfil every desire of our (adjusted) hearts. Biblically, we don't/can't know much about what we or our life in heaven will be like but we will be like Jesus the son-of-man, i.e., we'll be like the physical Lamb of God, aka, Jesus. (1 Jn 3:2)


Come quickly Lord Jesus!

[Ickisrulz]

If "heaven" is anything like a church service, prolonged singing sessions and being held captive while a preacher drones on, you can count me out. I'll take the alternative which I firmly believe the Bible teaches to be annihilation.

[Alasgun]

This is serious stuff folks, not to be looked at like an SAT test; where you pencil whip it then put your head on your desk for a 45 min nap! You need to have the right answers. Scripture tells us “faith comes from hearing the word of God” and faith is going to get you a long way down the road of accepting what you cant see.

I’d be a little Leary of anyone’s teaching who basis they’re whole opinion of Heaven on what they see or like here on earth.
You still have the liberty to pick up a bible and read it. And the liberty to seek out Christian believers to fellowship with who can help you and provide some understanding.

You can always pray as well; that the Lord will open your understanding and provide you with these resources. Going back to the beginning, “this ain’t no SAT, get it right”!

[Dieselhorses]

Many good answers here! "Eternity" in Heaven will be perceived as Christ perceives- (thousand years like a day and day is like a thousand years). We will forever be fulfilled and educated. As DannyD said, we won't be concerned with anything we were concerned with on this Earth, nor will we have any memories of it. In Revelations it clearly describes the details of Heaven and how the Earth will be cleansed with fire to make a place for the New Jerusalem. I often ponder on trying to work on "detaching" myself from worldly things and practices, and try to hone my "spiritual" concepts. Of course the only way to do that is to stay in touch with the "Big guy", read the scriptures and hang out with other believers.

[Ickisrulz]

Many good answers here! "Eternity" in Heaven will be perceived as Christ perceives- (thousand years like a day and day is like a thousand years). We will forever be fulfilled and educated. As DannyD said, we won't be concerned with anything we were concerned with on this Earth, nor will we have any memories of it. In Revelations it clearly describes the details of Heaven and how the Earth will be cleansed with fire to make a place for the New Jerusalem. I often ponder on trying to work on "detaching" myself from worldly things and practices, and try to hone my "spiritual" concepts. Of course the only way to do that is to stay in touch with the "Big guy", read the scriptures and hang out with other believers.

Where in the world did you get the idea we will have no memory of our time on earth? Our time on earth shows us the consequences of sin and its memory will keep us from repeating the same mistakes.

Our concerns in heaven may not be the same as they are here on earth, but we will have concerns, responsibilities and challenges in our lives. God will not do everything for us. He never has and he never will.

[farmbif]

I look at it this way. the Bible was written by men years or decades or even hundreds of years after events happened in some cases and stories in the different written bibles.
many of these stories and prophecies passed down verbally for generations before written down.
so as humans we will will only truly know gods plan as it happens and we witness the events and for now can only just have faith that what is written will come to pass in gods plan and the time for that plan as god desires we are only just here as his will has granted us. we are only just little humans on this little planet in gods infinite universe.

[a danl]

According to John in the book of revelation he see a New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. It's dimensions are 1500 miles or what ever the term is, a cube that is where all believers will live. Is this all there is, just a place to live? Will there be parks, mountains to climb, places to fish, or anything else? I just have a hard time thinking we'll just be sitting around playing harps and singing praises.

doesn't matter what it is or looks like, if the Lord is there that's where we would want to be. noone would chose hell over that

[a danl]

I look at it this way. the Bible was written by men years or decades or even hundreds of years after events happened in some cases and stories in the different written bibles.
many of these stories and prophecies passed down verbally for generations before written down.
so as humans we will will only truly know gods plan as it happens and we witness the events and for now can only just have faith that what is written will come to pass in gods plan and the time for that plan as god desires we are only just here as his will has granted us. we are only just little humans on this little planet in gods infinite universe.

of course it was written by men, but they were inspired by God. some actually were there and witnessed first hand what they wrote. be thankful for what we have and having it preserved all these years for us to be able to know and understand who God is.

[dannyd]

That's why being a old sailor is great, and yes if you met me in person you would definitely know I was a sailor. That being said one day I happened to stumble on Psalm 107 in the KJB and it describes the traveling on the boat perfectly. So that's when I started taking it literally because whoever wrote that Psalm did it before people started crossing the great oceans a lot and taking into account that even if it was just wrote by man in 1611. The good news is we will all find out one day and if it's is three score and ten them I am getting close.

[RickinTN]

To put things in perspective: The scriptures were written by man but inspired by God. Sheds a little different light on things.
Rick

[wv109323]

Revelation tells us that a new heaven and a new earth will come down. The present eath will melt in feverent heat.
There is no Bible for this but I believe the new earth will be much like the Garden of Eden. One where there was no sin and God enjoyed walking in the cool of the evening with man.
I believe the Bible is literal.
Hell is a place of eternal torment.

[Dieselhorses]

Where in the world did you get the idea we will have no memory of our time on earth? Our time on earth shows us the consequences of sin and its memory will keep us from repeating the same mistakes.

Our concerns in heaven may not be the same as they are here on earth, but we will have concerns, responsibilities and challenges in our lives. God will not do everything for us. He never has and he never will.

I think I'd want to build new memories, and "Heaven" is not just another 9-5 job, 5 days a week and play golf on the weekends.

[Thundarstick]

Does the Bible begin and end the same way? God with man in a garden with the tree of life?

[1hole]

Does the Bible begin and end the same way? God with man in a garden with the tree of life?

Yes! But I'd never thought of it that way.

We are free men, for now. We can choose to believe what scripture says or believe what some other man says or believe what we say but if we choose to believe wrongly about God's salvation the repercussions will be a living hell.

Heaven will last for eternity and hell's Lake of Fire will burn for eternity; the Bible says that and it doesn't even hint that the lost will be peacefully destroyed.

There will come a time when sad memories of this mortal life will grow dim and fade but I doubt they'll ever go away completely. If we could get to heaven but not remember anything about this life we'd have no idea who that nice guy with scarred hands, feet and back is and what he has done for us; I firmly believe that's something we'll never forget!

I also believe that in heaven we'll recognise and remember the family and other people we know and care for in this life. (I'll cite: "... we will know as we are known" [1 Cor 13:12] and "I, Jacob will be gathered to my fathers." [Gen 49:29])

[Dieselhorses]

Yes! But I'd never thought of it that way.

We are free men, for now. We can choose to believe what scripture says or believe what some other man says or believe what we say but if we choose to believe wrongly about God's salvation the repercussions will be a living hell.

Heaven will last for eternity and hell's Lake of Fire will burn for eternity; the Bible says that and it doesn't even hint that the lost will be peacefully destroyed.

There will come a time when sad memories of this mortal life will grow dim and fade but I doubt they'll ever go away completely. If we could get to heaven but not remember anything about this life we'd have no idea who that nice guy with scarred hands, feet and back is and what he has done for us; I firmly believe that's something we'll never forget!

I also believe that in heaven we'll recognise and remember the family and other people we know and care for in this life. (I'll cite: "... we will know as we are known" [1 Cor 13:12] and "I, Jacob will be gathered to my fathers." [Gen 49:29])

^^^Thanks for clarifying that!^^^

[Ickisrulz]

it doesn't even hint that the lost will be peacefully destroyed.

It most certainly does if you read it naturally without coloring the passages with what you've been taught your whole life.

[1hole]

It most certainly does if you read it naturally without coloring the passages with what you've been taught your whole life.

You presume too much; you have no idea of what I've been taught all my life. Nor do you know how old I am so you don't know how long I've been a Christian and you don't know what my personal Bible study has been like.

I can assure you that the Jehovah Witness and a few others have the idea of a temporary hell wrong. The Lake of Fire hell will be the eternal flip side of heaven. Some resurrected folk will have eternal joy in heaven so others will logically have some measure of eternal discomfort and misery in hell. There will be no purgatory, no short term annihilation, nor any other easy way out; as long as heaven lasts so will hell.

If it makes anyone feel easier, everyone should know that the Lake of Fire will not be as deep in every place as it will be in some places because the eternal punishment for things done in the flesh won't be the same for everyone there. I mean, contrary to what a lot of Biblically ignorant hell-fire preachers shout, the punishments of hell will be eternal but they will NOT not be the same for everyone! God's judgements are just and equal punishment for everyone's life would not be just.

Therefore, while all eternal sentences from the Great White Throne of judgements will still be hell, God will not punish "good" lost people the same as slimy two-legged dispensers of human misery like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lyndon B. Johnson, etc.; a LOT of people don't realise that. (See 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:12)

[augercreek]

Revelation tells us that a new heaven and a new earth will come down. The present eath will melt in feverent heat.
There is no Bible for this but I believe the new earth will be much like the Garden of Eden. One where there was no sin and God enjoyed walking in the cool of the evening with man.
I believe the Bible is literal.
Hell is a place of eternal torment.

I too tend to believe this way. I think hell would be like solitary confinement, leaving one to think i'm the only one here!!!!

[Ickisrulz]

You presume too much; you have no idea of what I've been taught all my life. Nor do you know how old I am so you don't know how long I've been a Christian and you don't know what my personal Bible study has been like.

I can assure you that the Jehovah Witness and a few others have the idea of a temporary hell wrong. The Lake of Fire hell will be the eternal flip side of heaven. Some resurrected folk will have eternal joy in heaven so others will logically have some measure of eternal discomfort and misery in hell. There will be no purgatory, no short term annihilation, nor any other easy way out; as long as heaven lasts so will hell.

If it makes anyone feel easier, everyone should know that the Lake of Fire will not be as deep in every place as it will be in some places because the eternal punishment for things done in the flesh won't be the same for everyone there. I mean, contrary to what a lot of Biblically ignorant hell-fire preachers shout, the punishments of hell will be eternal but they will NOT not be the same for everyone! God's judgements are just and equal punishment for everyone's life would not be just.

Therefore, while all eternal sentences from the Great White Throne of judgements will still be hell, God will not punish "good" lost people the same as slimy two-legged dispensers of human misery like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lyndon B. Johnson, etc.; a LOT of people don't realise that. (See 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:12)

Eternal torment (even if merely psychological) for a limited amount of sins is unjust and not within the character of God as displayed in the Bible. Even most flawed human beings would not inflict such a thing on their worst enemies. This is the most convincing argument supporting annihilation. Anyone who has read the Bible and understands the love that God has for his creatures, even when they fail and deserve punishments, cannot come away believing that he will torture people for all eternity. That is an insane idea.

The idea of annihilation was not developed by some fringe group or cult as you suggest. We could look at each passage involving the fate of the lost individually to see what it really says. However, you and I have been over this topic before and there isn't much point in redoing it. There are a lot of writings about this subject for free online as well as a modern books written by Edward Fudge that are inexpensive and readily available if someone is interested in exploring this further. Christendom has not always believed that the fate of the lost would be eternal conscious torment nor is it thought to be so by every Christian today.

[dverna]

There are no details about life in heaven wrt to how we will spend our time there. If anyone can point to scripture that says otherwise, please post it. Anything else is pure speculation.

I am sure I am going to heaven so what happens in hell is immaterial to me. It would be more mental masturbation than a useful thing to know. I do not need to know what a quark is to accept it exists...I have the same opinion about hell. It is there and does not concern me. What happens in hell is a silly thing for Christians to argue about IMO. What does it matter?

I have very little confidence in the physical description of heaven as laid out in Rev 21. But again, it does not matter. Maybe John saw what he wrote or maybe it was a dream he thought was real. Does it matter if the main street of heaven is made of gold, silver, concrete or cobblestones? I do not get hung up on details like that.

I have larger challenges to occupy my little pea brain than wondering about what heaven looks like. In fact, the whole of Rev 21 is an affront to being a Christian...it exalts precious metals and stones as something important to God. Just my opinion. I would rather the main street of heaven be a field of sweet smelling freshly cut lush grass...but that is not my choice. It is what it will be.

[Ickisrulz]

There are no details about life in heaven wrt to how we will spend our time there. If anyone can point to scripture that says otherwise, please post it. Anything else is pure speculation.

I am sure I am going to heaven so what happens in hell is immaterial to me. It would be more mental masturbation than a useful thing to know. I do not need to know what a quark is to accept it exists...I have the same opinion about hell. It is there and does not concern me. What happens in hell is a silly thing for Christians to argue about IMO. What does it matter?

I have very little confidence in the physical description of heaven as laid out in Rev 21. But again, it does not matter. Maybe John saw what he wrote or maybe it was a dream he thought was real. Does it matter if the main street of heaven is made of gold, silver, concrete or cobblestones? I do not get hung up on details like that.

I have larger challenges to occupy my little pea brain than wondering about what heaven looks like. In fact, the whole of Rev 21 is an affront to being a Christian...it exalts precious metals and stones as something important to God. Just my opinion. I would rather the main street of heaven be a field of sweet smelling freshly cut lush grass...but that is not my choice. It is what it will be.

There are no details on what we will be doing in heaven. Jesus tells us through parables that those who have been faithful in the "little" things of life, will be given more authority and responsibilities in the afterlife. So, it seems our work will not end, although some of us might be sweeping streets or scrubbing toilets.

The fate of the lost is of utmost importance to me and how I see God. "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" I believe he will.

Precious metals and stones had been used throughout Israel's history to depict the grandeur and value in her relationship with God (e.g., Ark of the Covenant). Revelations followed the same tradition but was never meant to be taken literally, and the original audience would not have done so.

[dannyd]

There are no details on what we will be doing in heaven. Jesus tells us through parables that those who have been faithful in the "little" things of life, will be given more authority and responsibilities in the afterlife. So, it seems our work will not end, although some of us might be sweeping streets or scrubbing toilets.

The fate of the lost is of utmost importance to me and how I see God. "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" I believe he will.

Precious metals and stones had been used throughout Israel's history to depict the grandeur and value in her relationship with God (e.g., Ark of the Covenant). Revelations followed the same tradition but was never meant to be taken literally, and the original audience would not have done so.

Actually Jesus was talking to the Jews, we were not included yet because he was their Messiah.

Your definitely not alone there are a lot of people that can't except the fact there is a Hell or one day there will be Great White Throne judgement. Me I'm just worrying about the Judgment Seat of Christ after the Rapture or gathering away.

[Ickisrulz]

So are you saying anytime Jesus spoke to the Jews, his message has nothing to do with Gentile Christians? If that were true, there wouldn't be much for us would there?

I accept that there will be a judgment and punishment. However, I don't agree with the notion that human beings will be kept alive to torture for all eternity.

God told Adam and Eve that the day they disobeyed him they would (eventually) die. How do you think they understood death?

God did not say, "The day you eat that fruit you will be confined to an everlasting pit where you will be tormented forever and ever." Jesus never said anything like that either and he talks an awful lot about "hell."

[dverna]

So are you saying anytime Jesus spoke to the Jews, his message has nothing to do with Gentile Christians? If that were true, there wouldn't be much for us would there?

I accept that there will be a judgment and punishment. However, I don't agree with the notion that human beings will be kept alive to torture for all eternity.

God told Adam and Eve that the day they disobeyed him they would (eventually) die. How do you think they understood death?

God did not say, "The day you eat that fruit you will be confined to an everlasting pit where you will be tormented forever and ever." Jesus never said anything like that either and he talks an awful lot about "hell."

Well, He did inflict His wrath not just to Adam and Eve but to all mankind after one sin. Women would suffer in child birth, and yet be subjected to her husband and still desire him. Men would till the earth to eat.

Yet, in Ezekiel, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father? When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

A bit of a mixed message about God's fairness.

[dannyd]

So are you saying anytime Jesus spoke to the Jews, his message has nothing to do with Gentile Christians? If that were true, there wouldn't be much for us would there?

I accept that there will be a judgment and punishment. However, I don't agree with the notion that human beings will be kept alive to torture for all eternity.

God told Adam and Eve that the day they disobeyed him they would (eventually) die. How do you think they understood death?

God did not say, "The day you eat that fruit you will be confined to an everlasting pit where you will be tormented forever and ever." Jesus never said anything like that either and he talks an awful lot about "hell."

Jesus message was to his own people the Jews because if they would have accepted him as their messiah there would have been No Christians. The disciples were not call Christians until Acts 11:26 at Antioch, Syria about 42 A.D. All of the Bible is divided in groups and who it's talking to The Jew, The Gentile or the Church. I did not write it I just read it and Literally Believe It.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Jesus message was to his own people the Jews because if they would have accepted him as their messiah there would have been No Christians. The disciples were not call Christians until Acts 11:26 at Antioch, Syria about 42 A.D. All of the Bible is divided in groups and who it's talking to The Jew, The Gentile or the Church. I did not write it I just read it and Literally Believe It.

When you say Jews, you do know that there are 12 tribes of Israel. Some refer to all of them as Jews. Some refer to only those of the tribe of Judah as Jews...some include Levi, in with those of Judah, and if so, what about the other ten tribes? And where did they settle? History points to the ten tribes crossing the Caucasus Mountains and settling in Europe, including the UK. Could many American's with British and European heritage be related to those of the 10 Tribes?

But I digress....but needed for my point.

When Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount (The Beatitudes, Matt 5-7), to great multitudes of people, some coming from BEYOND the Jordan, Were they all Jews.


Matt 4:25 thru Matt 5:2
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from [e]Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

[dannyd]

When you say Jews, you do know that there are 12 tribes of Israel. Some refer to all of them as Jews. Some refer to only those of the tribe of Judah as Jews...some include Levi, in with those of Judah, and if so, what about the other ten tribes? And where did they settle? History points to the ten tribes crossing the Caucasus Mountains and settling in Europe, including the UK. Could many American's with British and European heritage be related to those of the 10 Tribes?

But I digress....but needed for my point.

When Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount (The Beatitudes, Matt 5-7), to great multitudes of people, some coming from BEYOND the Jordan, Were they all Jews.


Matt 4:25 thru Matt 5:2
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from [e]Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

Well to me (opinion) the Whole Book of Matthew is written to the Jews again Jesus was their Messiah.

I know about Abraham's grandson Jacob that's name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons which became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Got that. Never heard about the Jewish tribes going north.

I am Irish and we came from Noah's son Japheth a gentile that went north with his son's Genesis 10:2. Now those guys crossed all that territory.

Everyone was a Gentile till Abram name was changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5 and he became the first Jew. got that too.

[a danl]

Does the Bible begin and end the same way? God with man in a garden with the tree of life?

basically the fall of man came with adam, therefore all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (condemnation) BUT GOD, so loved his creation that he allowed his only son to become man and live a sinless life and die on the cross by shedding his blood as a final sacrifice for the sins of whoever believes that God raised him from the grave to prove to mankind that he alone is God and beside him there is no other. that's why we celebrate easter because of his resurrection. the first born among men. and to answer your question, yes, it is as if God is allowing us back into the garden because we now are declared righteous in God's sight

[Ickisrulz]

Jesus message was to his own people the Jews because if they would have accepted him as their messiah there would have been No Christians. The disciples were not call Christians until Acts 11:26 at Antioch, Syria about 42 A.D. All of the Bible is divided in groups and who it's talking to The Jew, The Gentile or the Church. I did not write it I just read it and Literally Believe It.

The selection of Abraham and his descendants as "God's Chosen People" was not to the exclusion of other groups of people or races. Israel was to carry the message of God's love and commands to everyone through her example of obedience and resulting blessings. Unfortunately, she ultimately failed. Also, consider that Judaism was not a closed religion. Any Gentile could become a Jew.

Had Israel as a whole accepted Jesus as the Messiah, the Gospel message would have been carried to the Gentiles by the Jewish believers (kind of like the way it happened) and there would have certainly been Christians.

I find Paul's description of Gentiles being grafted into Israel very interesting. Now, the Jews who would be saved must be grafted into the Church.

[Ickisrulz]

Well, He did inflict His wrath not just to Adam and Eve but to all mankind after one sin. Women would suffer in child birth, and yet be subjected to her husband and still desire him. Men would till the earth to eat.

Yet, in Ezekiel, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father? When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

A bit of a mixed message about God's fairness.

The original sin put man on a path different from the one God had intended. The original idea was for man to follow God's rules without having to experience the negative effects of sin. Once man sinned, he was on the road to learn how harmful sin is. Man was on his own (outside the Garden of Eden) in many ways and that would make life more difficult. The man, whose job it was to provide for his family, would have to work much harder. The woman, whose role was to have children and raise them, would find it much more difficult without the original blessings of God.

The "curse" came through one man, but we all suffer and are judged for our own sins and we are on the same path of learning/experience as our ancient parents. The default fate of all men is death because of sin. Part of this is punishment for sins and the other part is that God is unwilling for man to live forever in a fallen state (hence the expulsion from access to the Tree of Life). God is willing to fix this for us by the work he accomplished through Jesus and the on-going work he is accomplishing through the Holy Spirit.

God is more than fair. He is extremely forgiving.

[dverna]

The original sin put man on a path different from the one God had intended. The original idea was for man to follow God's rules without having to experience the negative effects of sin. Once man sinned, he was on the road to learn how harmful sin is. Man was on his own (outside the Garden of Eden) in many ways and that would make life more difficult. The man, whose job it was to provide for his family, would have to work much harder. The woman, whose role was to have children and raise them, would find it much more difficult without the original blessings of God.

The "curse" came through one man, but we all suffer and are judged for our own sins and we are on the same path of learning/experience as our ancient parents. The default fate of all men is death because of sin. Part of this is punishment for sins and the other part is that God is unwilling for man to live forever in a fallen state (hence the expulsion from access to the Tree of Life). God is willing to fix this for us by the work he accomplished through Jesus and the on-going work he is accomplishing through the Holy Spirit.

God is more than fair. He is extremely forgiving.

If God is omniscient, He knew the choice Adam and Eve would make before they made it. Are you saying God did not know what was going to happen? That has been my conclusion for a long time.

I believe God knows everything about the past and everything about the present but He does not know everything about the future. In order to know everything about the future He would need to know every choice that we will make. If that is the case, is our "free will" predestined?

I am thankful for God's mercy. He had no choice as He decided to create us as sinners and thus heaven would be a desolate place without His mercy. I do not buy into Adam and Eve being responsible for the sins of the world. God wanted us a sinners. If he wanted us to be without sin, He would have started over with Adam and Eve, just He tried a redo with Noah. I suspect God knew mankind with free will could never meet His expectations so starting over made no sense. If we were to have free will, we would eventually sin. He did not want puppets.

[Ickisrulz]

If God is omniscient, He knew the choice Adam and Eve would make before they made it. Are you saying God did not know what was going to happen? That has been my conclusion for a long time.

I believe God knows everything about the past and everything about the present but He does not know everything about the future. In order to know everything about the future He would need to know every choice that we will make. If that is the case, is our "free will" predestined?

I am thankful for God's mercy. He had no choice as He decided to create us as sinners and thus heaven would be a desolate place without His mercy. I do not buy into Adam and Eve being responsible for the sins of the world. God wanted us a sinners. If he wanted us to be without sin, He would have started over with Adam and Eve, just He tried a redo with Noah. I suspect God knew mankind with free will could never meet His expectations so starting over made no sense. If we were to have free will, we would eventually sin. He did not want puppets.

When we come across something that God is reported to have done that we question or disagree with, we have a few options. We can question the source material (i.e., Bible or human authority). Is the report accurate? We can question God. Is he imperfect, is he limited (e.g., not omniscient), is he uncaring? Our last option is that we can question our self. Are we just not able to understand, comprehend or process something?

I wonder why you routinely choose the second option. You tell us often you believe in an imperfect, limited God. I am not criticizing, just observing and I admire your honesty. However, in my opinion claiming God has limited omniscience fails the logic test.

I have been on this earth under 55 years and can predict with pretty good accuracy how my children will behave in most situations. I cannot fathom how God was ever taken by surprise by his creatures. The person who created the entire universe, all the atoms and life we see cannot have anything except perfect knowledge in my estimation.

About "Free Will", Angles had free will and most never sinned, Jesus of Nazareth had free will but never sinned, God has free will but does not sin. So, free will is not necessarily a road to a tragic fall.

[dverna]

When we come across something that God is reported to have done that we question or disagree with, we have a few options. We can question the source material (i.e., Bible or human authority). Is the report accurate? We can question God. Is he imperfect, is he limited (e.g., not omniscient), is he uncaring? Our last option is that we can question our self. Are we just not able to understand, comprehend or process something?

I wonder why you routinely choose the second option. You tell us often you believe in an imperfect, limited God. I am not criticizing, just observing and I admire your honesty. However, in my opinion claiming God has limited omniscience fails the logic test.

I have been on this earth under 55 years and can predict with pretty good accuracy how my children will behave in most situations. I cannot fathom how God was ever taken by surprise by his creatures. The person who created the entire universe, all the atoms and life we see cannot have anything except perfect knowledge in my estimation.

About "Free Will", Angles had free will and most never sinned, Jesus of Nazareth had free will but never sinned, God has free will but does not sin. So, free will is not necessarily a road to a tragic fall.

Well....one third of the angels sinned even before Adam and Eve. It did not take long for them to fall from heaven.

Your analysis is correct about things I do not understand. I am left with either questioning if some accounts in the Bible are correct and/or if God is not perfect and omniscient. Someone recommended the book The Evangelical and The Open Theist by Garret Ham. It has helped me address the inconsistencies I struggle with. Of course the teachings in that book have been denounced by Evangelicals...no surprise there.

My understanding of God may be flawed, but that is between He and me. I suspect He smiles at my flailing around as I did when my son tried to take his first steps and says “Keep trying and don’t give up!” I will meet Him soon enough and know for sure.

I regret that I cannot become a member of the church I attend. It requires the Bible be accepted as the perfect word of God and is divinely inspired. I cannot get to that point...yet.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well to me (opinion) the Whole Book of Matthew is written to the Jews again Jesus was their Messiah.

I know about Abraham's grandson Jacob that's name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons which became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Got that. Never heard about the Jewish tribes going north.

I am Irish and we came from Noah's son Japheth a gentile that went north with his son's Genesis 10:2. Now those guys crossed all that territory.

Everyone was a Gentile till Abram name was changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5 and he became the first Jew. got that too.
You never heard of the 10 lost Tribes of Israel?

this is a good read.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-do-we-know-about-the-lost-tribes-of-israel.html

Near the end of this article:

Where Are the Lost Tribes of Israel Today?
The descendants of the 10 tribes of the Kingdom of Israel are thought by researchers of Jewish anthropology to live today in the world’s wealthiest nations. They found their land of milk and honey abroad.

There is evidence that Jewish people from the tribe of Asher live today in the Republic of South Africa.
Descendants of Dan’s tribe of Israel are reported to live in present-day Ireland.
Gad’s tribal people are living in Germany.
Issachar's people are living in Finland.
Ephraim’s tribe, largest in the Kingdom of Israel, live throughout the United Kingdom.
Manasseh tribal people live throughout the United States.
Naphtali's tribe lives in Sweden.
Reuben’s tribe is thought to exist in France.
Simeon’s tribe is scattered in the world among descendants of Israel.
Zebulon’s people are in Holland.

In your lifetime, you have probably read or seen conflict reported in the Near East as nations struggle to take ownership of the Holy Land. Conflict between tribes and their beliefs has been a problem since the earliest Bible times. National groups in the Near East have a spiritual basis for their political conflicts: countries claim they have the exclusive blessing of God to occupy His Holy Land.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well to me (opinion) the Whole Book of Matthew is written to the Jews again Jesus was their Messiah.

I know about Abraham's grandson Jacob that's name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons which became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Got that. Never heard about the Jewish tribes going north.

I am Irish and we came from Noah's son Japheth a gentile that went north with his son's Genesis 10:2. Now those guys crossed all that territory.

Everyone was a Gentile till Abram name was changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5 and he became the first Jew. got that too.

What about the Gospel of Luke?


Luke 2:10-11
King James Version
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

[augercreek]

I posted the original question, but it has morphed into something totally different. Please get back to the original topic.

[dverna]

I posted the original question, but it has morphed into something totally different. Please get back to the original topic.

It took me a minute to find this:

https://www.compellingtruth.org/doing-in-heaven.html

I am not a "good" Christian so I will be serving the Lord by cleaning toilets...or whatever the lowest from of 'serving the Lord' is needed. It will be interesting working shoulder to shoulder with many of the pastors, lawyers, and politicians I currently have no use for.

[Good Cheer]

Seeing as no one wants to talk about new Jerusalem I'll tackle a part of the roiling quagmire the thread has become.
We were put here in meat suits to make up our minds whether to love Father or not.
It's not reincarnation. We get one pass through the water, then either get welcomed home or booted out.
And if we weren't such a bunch of screw ups He wouldn't have had to wipe this place clean (Genesis 1) and set it back up for us.
He wouldn't have had to sacrifice as Jesus for us. It's our reality so stop making a religion out of it already.


On a lighter note and to stick a toe back into the original topic, did you fellas know that there has been a huge story for quite some time (well, it's huge if dealing with reality) about the political movement for Khazarians to return to their homeland and to make Kiev into New Jerusalem? That was a news story I just really wasn't expecting but it does make a certain amount of sense when one considers that (old) Jerusalem is slated to become ecumenical HQ (then called Sodom and Egypt) and that a decade ago Henry Kissinger said that due to their behavior towards their neighbors in ten years there perhaps wouldn't be an Israel. Any how, it was a story that made me do a double take.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I posted the original question, but it has morphed into something totally different. Please get back to the original topic.
I'm not sure if you are refering to my posts or not?
This is deep Theological discussion and the New Jerusalem that John speaks of in Rev 21 is a WIDE subject.
And "who is the 12 tribes" is relevant, and "who Jesus' message is for" is relevant.

I linked and copied Rev 12, because maybe it'd be good for commenters here to peruse through it. Both sub-topics I am discussing are mentioned. Also, it seems to me that most of the other topics by the other commenters are within this Wide topic of the New Jerusalem.

Lastly, my short answer to your question in the OP is, In verse 2, It's my opinion that I am not so sure it's a brick and mortar city coming down from heaven, but more likely the group of Souls that have chosen to be the bride of Christ.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2021&version=NKJV


REV 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

[B]The New Jerusalem
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came [f]to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [h]great city, the [i]holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the [j]names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand [k]furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Seeing as no one wants to talk about new Jerusalem I'll tackle a part of the roiling quagmire the thread has become.

We were put here in meat suits to make up our minds whether to love Father or not.
It's not reincarnation. We get one pass through the water, then either get welcomed home or booted out.
And if we weren't such a bunch of screw ups He wouldn't have had to wipe this place clean (Genesis 1) and set it back up for us. He wouldn't have had to sacrifice as Jesus for us.
It's our reality so stop making a religion out of it already.

>>>SNIP
What a great synopsis.
Before reading this, I never could have thought the entire bible could be reduced to 5 sentences.
totally serious here, not sarcasm.

[Dieselhorses]

What a great synopsis.
Before reading this, I never could have thought the entire bible could be reduced to 5 sentences.
totally serious here, not sarcasm.

I'm really learning a lot from this discussion! My take is that instead of trying to "profile" everything, I just trust God that everything will be fulfilled according to His purpose. Nothing wrong with being curious and researching, but we will satisfy our obscurities by seeking Him.


Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1 ESV

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 12:2 ESV

[ioon44]

1 John 3:2 New King James Version
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

[1hole]

My take is that instead of trying to "profile" everything, I just trust God that everything will be fulfilled according to His purpose. Nothing wrong with being curious and researching, but we will satisfy our obscurities by seeking Him

Some web folk get lit up about other folk citing scripture, they often suggest they don't want Bible thumpers interfering with their opinions. I say study and cite the Book, don't study other men's opinions or day dreams; only the Book will keep you straight. Other men can rightly challenge you to honestly examine your beliefs and some men may even help you to understand some things better but, bottom line, you are responsible for your own beliefs. The Book itself is the final standard of Godly knowledge.

No one wants to stand before Jesus on judgement day when he asks if you studied his Bible and you have to say, "Yeah, some, but I didn't waste my time studying the unimportant parts!" Don't ignore the study of prophecy, it's in the Bible for a reason!

FACT: Only if we know what God has done in the past can we properly praise him now. Only if we know what he will do later can we properly praise him now for what he is yet going to do.

If you want to fully praise your God then fully study his Book, all of it, and that's not just my own idea. (See 2 Tim 3:16-17)

[augercreek]

some web folk get lit up about other folk citing scripture, they often suggest they don't want bible thumpers interfering with their opinions. I say study and cite the book, don't study other men's opinions or day dreams; only the book will keep you straight. Other men can rightly challenge you to honestly examine your beliefs and some men may even help you to understand some things better but, bottom line, you are responsible for your own beliefs. The book itself is the final standard of godly knowledge.

No one wants to stand before jesus on judgement day when he asks if you studied his bible and you have to say, "yeah, some, but i didn't waste my time studying the unimportant parts!" don't ignore the study of prophecy, it's in the bible for a reason!

fact: only if we know what god has done in the past can we properly praise him now. Only if we know what he will do later can we properly praise him now for what he is yet going to do.

If you want to fully praise your god then fully study his book, all of it, and that's not just my own idea. (see 2 tim 3:16-17)

amen !!!!

[Dieselhorses]

Some web folk get lit up about other folk citing scripture, they often suggest they don't want Bible thumpers interfering with their opinions. I say study and cite the Book, don't study other men's opinions or day dreams; only the Book will keep you straight. Other men can rightly challenge you to honestly examine your beliefs and some men may even help you to understand some things better but, bottom line, you are responsible for your own beliefs. The Book itself is the final standard of Godly knowledge.

No one wants to stand before Jesus on judgement day when he asks if you studied his Bible and you have to say, "Yeah, some, but I didn't waste my time studying the unimportant parts!" Don't ignore the study of prophecy, it's in the Bible for a reason!

FACT: Only if we know what God has done in the past can we properly praise him now. Only if we know what he will do later can we properly praise him now for what he is yet going to do.

If you want to fully praise your God then fully study his Book, all of it, and that's not just my own idea. (See 2 Tim 3:16-17)

Amen too! The time is now (and I'm referring to myself) to really start digging deep into the Word!

[1hole]

Just a thought about God's chosen seat of earthly government vs. Satan's; it seems clear that God has chosen Jerusalem and Satan has chosen Pergamum, not Jerusalem. (Rev. 2:12)

[super6]

We all become part of the holly ghost, Or the holly sprite If you like, You will become pure love, For our fellow man.The gold streets are just not there. Love like mad and be saved. It is just not that hard. The ghost saved my life.