Cleaning Lead

[flatnose]

I am buying 92-6-2 from a reputable source. Probably many of you are getting it from the same source. I can not seem to get the trash out of the lead. I have fluxed with beeswax, pine saw dust. It shows up in the bullets no matter what I try and seems to show up worse at higher temps. Sometimes worse than others. Amazingly to me it seems to get better as the pot gets near empty. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[pworley1]

What does the trash look like?

[flatnose]

Looks like dirt for the lack of a better description. It will actually etch the bullets.

[Wheelguns 1961]

Do you scrape the sides of your pot when stirring and fluxing? I like to keep my pot clean.

[flatnose]

Yes i do. I have even drained and cleaned it. I am almost positive it is in the alloy. This has been an ongoing problem. I guess I need to try different supplier for my lead. This is a popular supplier that I am sure many here have purchased from. I am lost for answers as of now.

[mfraser264]

See if you can locate some real lead flux, Marvelux or Frankford Arsenal CleanCast Lead Fluxing Compound(Midwayusa.com Product #: 593033). These fluxes truly remove slag and other contaminates.

[bangerjim]

Remember beeswax is a REDUCER and not a FLUX. It will not clean the carp out of your re-melt.

I have melted some really dirty filthy :shock: Pb in my day and have always ended up with clean perfect Pb by fluxing 3X with pine sawdust. The last melt, I throw some beeswax in (I make it into 1/2" balls for easy measuring) just to get everything (Sb and SN) in the soup. 3X with pine dust should do the trick.

Save your beeswax for your casting pot to keep the Sn in there while casting.

Banger :guntootsmiley:

[Bazoo]

No offense meant, do you know how to flux? Are you new to casting? What I think you’re describing is oxidized alloy on the top of your melted alloy. It gets in your bullets if you don’t leave a large enough sprue puddle. It will float out of your bullet though if the sprue puddle is large and doesn’t run over your mould edge or into the adjacent cavity. I shoot bullets anyway if they have minor oxide inclusions.

When you flux with sawdust you get lead that is technically fluxed well but that doesn’t cast well compared to lead that’s fluxed with beeswax. Put two pea sized pebbles of wax in the pot and let it melt. After about 30 seconds, stir well, including scraping the pot, and turning air/wax down into the alloy. After another 30 seconds to minute of stirring the lead should flow better and be water-like. If it isn’t, flux again with beeswax. Candle wax won’t act the same. Then the lead should really cast well about a dozen casts before you get a buildup up grey sludge again. I scrape this off as needed but don’t flux until I add more to the pot.

It is possible that you have a batch of ornery alloy if you are not new to casting. I have had an ornery batch before. Buy some other alloy and test it to see if you get the same results. If so, then you can mix the ornery stuff in a little at a time to use it up.

[gwpercle]

See if you can locate some real lead flux, Marvelux or Frankford Arsenal CleanCast Lead Fluxing Compound(Midwayusa.com Product #: 593033). These fluxes truly remove slag and other contaminates.

:goodpost:
A lot of people bad mouth Marvelux but in Glen E. Fryxell & Fred Applegates book " From Ingot to Target " it is recommended ... I read it and bought a Jar ... It Works .
To get a real clean flux I use a three step : Pencil Sharpener Shavings ( wood shavings) + a little beeswax on the shavings ... stir well w/ wood paddle (small stick) and next add Marvelux ...
Stir well and skim well ...Scrape sides & bottom of pot with metal skimming spoon ...scrape well to get trash loose and out . Then ...
Repeat ...two light fluxes are better than one big one ... you must stir well and skim well to get all inclusions out .
I like to use a beeswax along with wood shavings and Marvelux because it will clean all the trash out, using just one flux ...won't get it done... but if you have only one - Marvelux does the best job because it is a commerical lead flux !
Gary

[flatnose]

I am not new to casting but for the last 30 yrs i shot wheel weights in handguns. Almost exclusively light target loads. As of about a year ago I started buying this 92-6-2 and have had this problem off and on. Sometimes it is real bad and sometimes not so bad. I said earlier when the pot gets low it is never as bad!.I have tried pine saw dust, marvelux, beeswax and nothing really seems to have an effect. When it is doing this nothing seems to help. If casting as cold as possible it will not look black but can still see it sometimes in the bullets. Thanks guys for all the suggestions and help I really appreciate it.

[Bazoo]

Why don’t you call the place you got it from and complain. Maybe they will send you some fresh to try.

[triggerhappy243]

i am not new to casting but for the last 30 yrs i shot wheel weights in handguns. Almost exclusively light target loads. As of about a year ago i started buying this 92-6-2 and have had this problem off and on. Sometimes it is real bad and sometimes not so bad. I said earlier when the pot gets low it is never as bad!.i have tried pine saw dust, marvelux, beeswax and nothing really seems to have an effect. When it is doing this nothing seems to help. If casting as cold as possible it will not look black but can still see it sometimes in the bullets. Thanks guys for all the suggestions and help i really appreciate it.

is it possible it has zinc in it? Only way to test it yourself is with muriatic acid. Then try xrf testing.

[justindad]

I purchased some 92-6-2 that gave inclusions in the bullets… more than I would expect. I fluxed in a small pot, and then transferred the clean lead via ladle to the bottom pour. I didn’t get wrinkles like I am with my wheel weights, which I think is contaminated. I refluxed before each casting session, so most of the lead was fluxed with sawdust & beeswax several times, but there was always inclusions. I just received clean alloy from Rotometals, so hopefully I see an improvement. Maybe it’s me.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Be sure to give the pot and spout area, a deep cleaning before you blame the alloy.

[farmbif]

flatnose is buying from a reputable source.
can you share with us the name of this reputable source?
im just guessing here. but its getting more and more difficult to get pure alloys. I know from my years working with the owner of several huge scrapyards that all kinds of stuff is in those bins, crates and bales of alloys that get sold by the truckload. and im guessing its pretty costly to separate these alloys once they are all melted down together. I'm not sure of the processes these alloys go though once they are shipped out of the scrap yard but would be interested in learning more of how its done.

[OFFSHORE]

Tagging in!!! I have been experiencing the same issue, although I get all my pure lead from recycling centers as lead pipe or roof flashing, stuff that is easily bent by hand and my wheel weights from several tire store sources. I flux with pet cedar shavings, bees wax, two to three times and still get "dirty looking" bullets. I'm a hunter/shooter and for my hunting handgun bullets I use a 30:1 ratio (50%COWW/50% soft lead/1lb. pewter) and for rifle bullets I use a 30:1 ratio as well (100% COWW/1lb. pewter). Not that it has effected my accuracy, but I sure do like nice shinny boolits out of the mold vs. wiping each of them down after sizing/loading.

[FISH4BUGS]

The key piece of information to me is that when the pot gets down, the alloy gets better and I presume less slushy. That means, to me, that the heating gizmo isn't working right - there is less volume to heat up when the pot gets lower and lower and the heating gizmo can work just barely enough to get the temperature higher.
My theory?
Temperature. Your thingie that controls the temperature in your pot may not be doing what you think. I think adding heat until the slush integrates is your option. Get a thermometer and see if you can get it up to 850 - guaranteed to clear up the slush.

[Bloodman14]

Had a similar problem years ago with scrap lead and picked-up wheel weights. Thought it was the alloy for some time. Went to clean out the pot for the third time, and when I picked it up, some 'stuff' fell out of the bottom of the pot. Took it apart and found a mostly burned-through heating element. Bought spares and have been fine since.

[flatnose]

I am using a pid. I actually have two of them. i dont want to mention the place I am buying the aloy but all of you are familiar with them. The alloy has certs. I will try to figure out how to post a picture. At least then everyone can see instead of my description, not that us rednecks have not mastered the english language.

[flatnose]

299157

ok here is a picture of a real bad one
sometimes it is on only the body and when you size them even .001" it is gone
anyone have any suggestions?

[justindad]

I recognize those inclusions, but mine didn’t always disappear with sizing. I always wondered if those were from dropping spruce cuts into the pot while metal oxides were floating. Do you use a bottom pour & are you dropping in spruce cuts or culls?
*
Is the level of antimony here higher than you are used to using?
*
At the end of my casting session, I clean my alloy and empty the pot into the ingot mold… because of these inclusions. Then I flux again at the beginning of the next casting session, so ingots are cleaned several times. This helped my purchased 92-6-2 alloy.
*
I remember when I received the 8lb ingots and melted them down into 1lb ingots - a whole lot of trash was stuck to the inside walls of the pot. This is the cheapest source of lead with 2% tin I can find (regardless of antimony content), so might be a “you get what you pay for” kinda thing.

[flatnose]

I am using a bottom pour and I am not dropping in the sprues as I go but I have in the past. Cant say I noticed a difference although i might not have noticed it. As i said earlier it is always worse with a full pot and gets better as it gets lower but still can turn out one with this anytime. As far as the amount of antimony all I can go by is the certs. I have drained the pot and cleaned it . Fluxed many times with beeswax, pine sawdust, marvelux. Beeswax actually seems to clean it the best but I can still have this problem. Is this trash in the lead or something else. I dont know.

[jsizemore]

Looks like antimony freezing on the surface of your bullet. Antimony is a bit high so you could cut it in half with an equal amount of lead and bring you back to COWW alloy with 1% tin already added. Looks like your temp is fine with good fill out. If you add the lead you may want to run your mold temp a little hotter. Running your mold hotter without adding the lead will cause more and larger patches. Alloy 100°F above liquidus is about right. I set my PID on 700°F and call it good with that alloy.

[dondiego]

A spruce is a species of tree. A sprue is what is discarded from the top of the mold when casting a bullet.

[jsizemore]

A spruce is a species of tree. A sprue is what is discarded from the top of the mold when casting a bullet.

Spell check knows spruce but not sprue.

[flatnose]

299198

299199

couple more pics for anyone that might know the problem
This is an extreme example. Sometimes the problem is almost gone. I just cant seem to figure out what it is that makes it not do this.

[dondiego]

Spell check knows spruce but not sprue.

Sorry!

[farmbif]

its difficult to tell by pictures but are the inclusions actual voids or is it more like a different colored material imbedded in the lead, is it possible to pick the pieces out with tip of a pocket knife or is it just a discoloration. and does this happen with different molds or just the one? also if you were to cut a bullet in half are these "inclusions" thought it or just on the surface. I guess the bottom line is, how do they shoot and is the cast weights of these bullets consistant or are the weight of them all over the place.
an xrf test could be helpful to figure out exactly what is in the alloy.

[Bazoo]

Those would be considered as good bullets if they were mine. Minor surface imperfections doesn’t a reject bullet make. Filled out good.

I get bullets that look like that if I use not too clean alloy and I don’t keep the alloy skimmed. Ladle casting though. My experience is that, a very large sprue left that doesn’t run over the mould sides allows most of that to float out of the bullet into the sprue. A small sprue, or a sprue that pulls off the mould or into the adjacent cavity will not draw the scum out of the bullet.

I’d guess your problem is the heat isn’t high enough. If it happens less with an almost empty pot, that means the alloy is hotter. Maybe the temperature control on your pot is going out.

[flatnose]

If I turn the heat down this almost completely goes away. Almost all of my molds, the bullets wont fill out at a low temp. This really starts at about 750 +. I have molds from accurate, arsenal, lyman and MP. Also using a pid. This problem wont be on every bullet. I have emptied the pot and cleaned it. I have scraped and fluxed with almost everything you can think of. None of it seems to be over .001 deep although sometimes it will look etched. I guess I am down to trying some new alloy.

[farmbif]

if it is just on the surface is it possible some lubricant or something on the mold is causing it? just thinking out loud her. maybe check the alloy by taking a spoonful out of the pot and pouring it out on a clean. surface and see if there are still spots in it.
I know the last mold I got had some sort of super duty cutting fluid residue on it that took a whole bunch of work to get cleaned off.

[jsizemore]

Clumps of antimony freezing on the surface. Lead temp too high. Turn down the pot lead temp to 700°F. Adding more lead to the mix will let you run a higher melt temp if you feel the need to do that. If they fill out (looks like that's not a problem) than why keep cranking up the temp?

[John Boy]

Bring melt up to casting temperature …. Drop flux on top of lead …. Burn smoke off with a match … stir the flux DEEP into the melt with sides of the pot scraped and keep stirring until the gray dross rises to the top and floats on the top of the lead
.. Skim off . Repeat steps = Done
Borax is a good flux

[flatnose]

Clumps of antimony freezing on the surface. Lead temp too high. Turn down the pot lead temp to 700°F. Adding more lead to the mix will let you run a higher melt temp if you feel the need to do that. If they fill out (looks like that's not a problem) than why keep cranking up the temp?

As I mentioned earlier 700 will almost stop this problem but I cant get fill out at that low temp.

[jsizemore]

Never saw that in any of your posts. You did say the problem was about gone when you turned the temp down.

[triggerhappy243]

299157

ok here is a picture of a real bad one
sometimes it is on only the body and when you size them even .001" it is gone
anyone have any suggestions?

see if you can find a little muriatic acid somewhere. place a drop onto the side of that bullet. if it foams, you have zinc.

[bruce381]

Looks like antimony freezing on the surface of your bullet. Antimony is a bit high so you could cut it in half with an equal amount of lead and bring you back to COWW alloy with 1% tin already added. Looks like your temp is fine with good fill out. If you add the lead you may want to run your mold temp a little hotter. Running your mold hotter without adding the lead will cause more and larger patches. Alloy 100°F above liquidus is about right. I set my PID on 700°F and call it good with that alloy.

Yeah agree add some lesser alloyed lead I do that and it goes away

[Charlie Horse]

is it possible it has zinc in it? Only way to test it yourself is with muriatic acid. Then try xrf testing.

How do you test for zinc with muriatic acid? What's xrf?

[Charlie Horse]

I may be all wet here, but I've never had this problem to speak of, and I've never fluxed with sawdust. Always wax. Candle wax.

[triggerhappy243]

how do you test for zinc with muriatic acid? What's xrf?

muriatic acid has a chemical reaction with zinc. The metal foams aggressively if their is zinc in the lead.
A few drops on your lead ingot is all that is needed. If it foams like a freshly poured rootbeer, the ingot contains zinc.
Xrf is an electronic method to analyze the lead ingot thru radiation. It detects all of the metal alloys contained in the ingot.

[Walks]

I wash all the Lead I get with water then allow to air dry for several days. Then I fill My cast iron alloying pot then Flux 3 times with marvelux, sawdust and real beeswax.
I never add anything to My casting pots that has not been already been cleaned by Me.
I Flux once when I add alloy to the casting pot, using beeswax.