Sightin' in slow loads

[tube_ee]

So, I cast up 100 of the Lee TL312-160, out of scrap wheel weights, and lubed 'em up with two coats of White Lightning chain lube. They measured ~.3135 across the driving band just above the GC shank.

Loaded over 9.5 grains of Alcan AL-8 I had around, a load I found in an old post here, checked with other sources as to burn rate and such, and then picked the Lee dipper that threw closest-but-less-than the 10 grains that was discussed here. Seated and crimped in the top-most "groove", for an OAL of ~2.778.

Went to the indoor range with my pseudo-scout M44, 2-6x32 Bushnell Trophy on Darrell's mount.

The scope was "sighted in" on an outdoor range, using Prvi ammo I bought for the brass. I was able to hit a 3" piece of steel pipe stock at random ranges, from field positions. But the scope and mount had never been bore-sighted, so I was way off-center with the knobs. Anyhow, I ran out of elevation knob before I was on paper at 50 yards.

So I reset the knobs to center, rented a bore-sighter, and re-set the mount to be centered at 2X, then used the knobs to fine-tune at 6X.

No holes on paper.

Went up 1 1/2 full turns on the knob, before running out of range time. Even that's more than I'm really comfortable with.

How should I sight this load in?

--Shannon

[JSnover]

Get a lot closer to the target. Seriously. I've bought rifles that were so far off they wouldn't hit a 5 foot square target at 50 yards. Since you can't watch the boolits in flight you'll have no idea which way to correct, until you can find a hole on the paper. Try it at 25 yards.

[corvette8n]

I had the same problem with a 6.5 Carcano couldnt hit the target at 50 yards, moved back to 25 yards and found the bullet bearly hitting botton right, this was with favtory Privi ammo.
went back home and sized some .270 cast to .268 loadded up with Unique and hit target at 25 yards.
Only open sights on this one.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Get a lot closer to the target. Seriously. I've bought rifles that were so far off they wouldn't hit a 5 foot square target at 50 yards. Since you can't watch the boolits in flight you'll have no idea which way to correct, until you can find a hole on the paper. Try it at 25 yards.

I would start even closer. Whenever I mount a new scope I set up on the 25 yd. range and walk halfway to the target and take one shot standing. Not worried about bench rest accuracy, just need to know what direction to go. Then go back to the 25 yd. bench and begin moving it to center.
Don't know how many times I've helped people out trying to sight in a "bore sighted" gun on the 100 yd. range. They fiddle around wasting a bunch of ammo. and not getting on paper. I have them take a shot from about 15 yds. and then start moving the scope. After another 3 - 4 rounds and sight corrections we have the gun shooting near center at 100.
This is all of course if no one else is shooting on the range at the time. If you can't move any closer than 25 yds, just use a BIG target so you have lots of paper around it to locate that first shot.

[Larry Gibson]

Couple problems; You should have seen where the zero was in the bore sighter before making any changes. Bore sighters are made for "average" barrel lengths with scopes mounted over the reciever. Using one on a short barrel is bad enough (usually causes impact to be way high) then you use a scope mounted up front ala scout. That makes it hit even higher. Hate to say this but lay the bore sight aside. Put a 6-8" bull target up at 100 yards. With rifle in a solid rest front and rear take the bolt out and "boresight" the real way. Look down the bore and center the bullseye in the bore. Without moving the rifle move (a buddy with gentle hands helps here) the crosshair of the scope until they coincide with the middle of the bullseye. When you can center the bullseye in the bore and just by slightly moving your head (do not move the rifle) see the crosshairs centered in the bullseye then you are really "bore sighted".

Now you can rezero the rifle with your J bullets load and then put the bore sighter on the rifle. Not where the cross hairs line up in relation to the bore site reticle. Note; very seldom do rifle that are zeroed have the scope retical line up with the center of the bore site reticle. Make a little drawing of where the reticle lines up on the bore site retical with this zero. Thus you can move back to that zero using the bore siter.

As to your cast bullet load? Move the target into 25 yards and adjust poi to 1-2" high. Then move the target to 50 yards and adjust your zero for that range. Then put the bore siter back on and make a drawing of where the scope reticle lines up with the bore site reticle so you can return to that zero using the bore siter.

Larry Gibson

[sundog]

I use the same technique a Larry. BUT, I'll add this. Mechanical zero your scope first. Many mounts have at least windage adjustment ala lock screws on the rear mount/ring. Get your course windage adjustment with them first. Your normal zero, 100, 200, whatever you choose, should be close to mechanical zero, at least for windage. If you do not have enough elevation range for max anticipated shooting distance then your mechanical zero should be high for elevation allowing you to depress for shorter range and still have enough elevation for anticipated max range. A shim under the mount may be require.

I just did one yesterday like this and was on paper at 100 in less than 3 rounds. Final outcome was 4 clicks windage off mechanical zero and 14" high at mechanical zero. Did a shim job last night and will recheck as wx allows. Don't run your self out of elevation.

Here's an example that Felix and I did a few months ago. I fired a 3-shot group on paper, then setting the cross hair on the X, rifle stedy in the bags, Felix moved the crosshairs to center of group while I directed. Next shot hit POA, maybe needed a click one way or another for final adjustment. It's easier at 100 or 200 then at 50.

[tube_ee]

So I took the M44 to the outdoor range today, and played with the mount at 25 yards until I was happy with it.

Then I tried to shoot tighter, so I could do the finer sight-in using the scope adjustments.

And there's where the problems came in. The gun wouldn't group worth a darn. It was shooting around 1.5" vertically at 50 yards, but horizontally, about 6-8". It was windy, but still... that's no good. If the horizontal was where the vertical was, I'd be stoked.

Dad had a similar problem with a .270, more velocity was the solution. These loads, Lee TL312-160 over 10.2 grains of Alcan AL-8, chrony'd at ~1100 fps, with acceptable ES and SD.

What say you all?

Thanks,
--Shannon

[Larry Gibson]

tube ee

Are you putting GCs on those bullets?

Larry Gibson

[tube_ee]

No gas checks. I wouldn't have thought they were needed at this speed.

I had another thought...

My Lyman die set has a .308 expander plug. Even with a light bell on the case mouth, would the .308" ID of the case neck swage the bullet down during seating, resulting in an undersized bullet?

Dad broke the decapping pin, and then tried to modify the ball to hold an RCBS pin... No dice, so I'm getting a new set of pins and a .311 ball. We'll see how that turns out. I shot up just about everything I had, and sent the extra bullets home with Dad for his SKS, so we'll see where we end up.

--Shannon

[chuebner]

Have you slugged the bore on your M44 yet? You may find you need a bigger bullet. My 1948 M44 slugs at .301 X .312. I beagled a Lee C312-155 to .315 then check and size to .314. This rifle shoots 3-4" at 100yds. with 18gr. 2400.

charlie

[tube_ee]

I don't have any round balls, except for the .451s I cast for my Remington replica. And I don't want to use a sledgehammer to slug my gun...

Could I cast a bullet with the pure lead I use for RBs. A one-time-use mold is pretty silly.

The rifle has shot under 3" at 100, using a discontinued Speer .312" 200 grain Grand Slam and Ramshot Big Game powder. Prvi soft points go around 3". A .312 bullet goes into the muzzle up to the curve, short of the shank.

--SHannon

[Larry Gibson]

tube_ee

"No gas checks. I wouldn't have thought they were needed at this speed."

There in lies the probable problem (assuming a good bore and crown). Put GCs on them and try them with that same load. If they shoot well then it was the lack of GCs. If they shoot poorly still then we must look at other things. Best to eliminate one thing at a time starting with the most obvious fault. In this case that is the lack of a GC on GC designed bullet.

"I had another thought...My Lyman die set has a .308 expander plug. Even with a light bell on the case mouth, would the .308" ID of the case neck swage the bullet down during seating, resulting in an undersized bullet?"

Wthout a GC and if the alloy is softer than the case neck, yes.

"Dad broke the decapping pin, and then tried to modify the ball to hold an RCBS pin... No dice, so I'm getting a new set of pins and a .311 ball. We'll see how that turns out. I shot up just about everything I had, and sent the extra bullets home with Dad for his SKS, so we'll see where we end up."

It is good you are shooting and doing things, especially shooting and reloading, with your Dad. Some of us did not have that opportunity, make the most out of it while you can.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

I have many times been amazed and amused at the guy with the new rifle(never been shot vintage) that shows up at the range with a couple of boxes of a buck or so around factory, sets a small target at 100 and can't figure why he can't get on paper. Usually after 8-10 rounds they figure out that maybe they are to far away, and now come up to 50, often still missing the paper, with maybe another 4-5 rounds. If they do hit at 50 then they adjust to center and often are satisfied, if not then they may come back to 25 and from there are usually able to at least get on paper (usually, but not always). If they ask for advise, am willing to help, but learned long ago that free advise not asked for is a waste of my time, so I don't offer same. When asked, I advise using the biggest piece of cardboard or butcher type paper available behind the target. Preferably in the three foot square catagory. When sighting in a new rifle, I always start on a large target at 25, to get centered, then to 50, then to 100, then to 200 etc. for final adjustment. Lots more satisfaction for me at least with this method, and I then have practical data on range for given loads.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[TAWILDCATT]

I shoot one shot any range but 25 yrds helps.clamp the rifle and put cross hair on bull move the cross hairs to the bullet.next shot should be on or very close.if not you may need to fire a group to see if the gun groups at all.the 160 grain should need to use the 300 yrd mark.my load is 13 gr red dot on any military cal except 6.5.jap/carcano.it goes 1680fs in 03.your to slow.the bullet drops to much.and a scope is a pain in the hum! I have a 7.65 arg that the scop is mounted off and had to get millet mounts or redrill.get your speed up first.I shoot !" groups with lees 312-160.:coffee: [smilie=1: