When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From? [Archive]

1hole

04-15-2022, 10:07 PM

Well, it [the rapture?] wasn't taught in any churches until about 1820 or ....

Say what! Do you really reject as a fact that Paul himself taught the Thessilions about the rapture somewhere in the early second century AD? Or are you saying the rapture and other end-times doctrines don't matter to you therefore it shouldn't matter to anyone else? Goodness my friend .... that's a BIG step!

...and many Christian churches still don't teach a rapture where we'll be taken away from the earth to dwell in heaven (another place).

Well, except as a pleasant holding place awaiting the millennial Kingdom, I don't accept that either. The present spiritual Paradise is a only place for us to dwell until the time of the new heaven on the rebuilt to original specifications on earth begins.

Someone mentioned context. There is (context) 4 verses, or so, in front of and after, (Context) how the word is used in that letter, by that author, and (CONTEXT) how that word or paraphrase is used in ALL of scripture. This is why I brought up looking at how a word is used in other scriptures in the original language text (English versions are translated and transliterated verse).

The only context at issue here is what the message of the rapture means, not who it was originally written to. Man, if we rejected parts of the Bible as irrelevant today because its "context" wasn't specifically named for Americans in the 21st Century there wouldn't be much left!

I personally don't see Revelation as a road map of the end of days. Let's not forget that these "books" are all letters written to someone else, that we are listening (looking) in on.

I don't see these "end time" theologies as having anything what so ever to do with salvation, and sometimes wonder why we even spend time mulling them over.

Okay, that's your point of view. But, what other parts of God's big Book do you suggest we ignore because the information doesn't directly impact salvation? (And I'll mention that the doctrine of salvation is only the starting point, i.e., the baby's milk of the Bible.)

Salvation is easy to understand; it's so simple that kids can get it. It doesn't really require a lot of study by long-time Christians - people who often haven't gotten passed the spiritual infant stage to know all we need to know about salvation.

Seems pew sitting for years while carefully listening to a steady diet of the simple basic doctrine - the baby's milk of the Christian faith - Sunday after Sunday can't be expected to advance the spiritual growth of the Body of Christ ... and surely you would agree that our churches do seem to have a lot of very old but still baby Christians! (Read 1 Cor 3:1-3 and Heb 5:13-14. Read in context of course ... maybe it wasn't meant for anyone but the Corinthians and Hebrews? ;))

Good Cheer

04-16-2022, 07:07 AM

"Say what! Do you really reject as a fact that Paul himself taught the Thessilions about the rapture somewhere in the early second century AD?"

If you are asking about pretrib then yeah, by what scripture says I've found the theory to be untenable along with the notion that Paul was teaching it.

People who want to resolve the matter in their own minds have much to wade through if they consider the published works of proponents and detractors of the theory. For those interested in further research much has been published on investigative works concerning the early 19th Century proponents of the idea, how it was thereafter propagated in Britain and North America, who put up the money along with the political purposes behind it and where in what portions of the world the theory has gained dominance. As with most things political the truth just doesn't cut it so be prepared to find all sides doing a taffy pull on reality.

Dieselhorses

04-16-2022, 09:11 AM

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. —Philippians 2:12-13

1hole

04-16-2022, 10:18 AM

If you are asking about pretrib then yeah, by what scripture says I've found the theory to be untenable along with the notion that Paul was teaching it.

The issue here is the Rapture, not if it will occur pre, mid or post Trib. All we need to know about the timing is to read the scriptures as if they are true as stated. It not a contest of logic or other books or "I believe this and you (wrongly) believe that". Only what God says matters and his Book is where we find that.

Scripture says the Rapture will happen suddenly and without warning; that would not be the case if it were to occur at mid or post Trib. The Trib itself it would be an obvious warning of what's coming next if the Rapture should happen mid or post Trib. Therefore, pre Trib is the only possible "Surprise!" answer and it matters not what I may think it should be.

Bottom line; the Rapture is not a recent concept, it comes directly from New Testament scripture, the same as salvation by faith and not works, and it did NOT start in 1820.

It's a fact that the Rapture will occur suddenly and without warning, therefore it has to occur pre Trib. (Mat 24:44) ???

Good Cheer

04-16-2022, 11:14 AM

The issue here is the Rapture, not if it will occur pre, mid or post Trib. All we need to know about the timing is to read the scriptures as if they are true as stated. It not a contest of logic or other books or "I believe this and you (wrongly) believe that". Only what God says matters and his Book is where we find that.

Scripture says the Rapture will happen suddenly and without warning; that would not be the case if it were to occur at mid or post Trib. The Trib itself it would be an obvious warning of what's coming next if the Rapture should happen mid or post Trib. Therefore, pre Trib is the only possible "Surprise!" answer and it matters not what I may think it should be.

Bottom line; the Rapture is not a recent concept, it comes directly from New Testament scripture, the same as salvation by faith and not works, and it did NOT start in 1820.

It's a fact that the Rapture will occur suddenly and without warning, therefore it has to occur pre Trib. (Mat 24:44) ???

And, from 2nd Thessalonians we know it happens after the son of perdition comes out of the closet.
I've come to think that Christ's return happens after the two dead witnesses stand up in the city. That's going to be a big surprise and so will be
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God as stated in 1st Thessalonians.
You and I have drawn different conclusion. So be it.

ioon44

04-17-2022, 09:11 AM

"pre, mid or post Trib"

If you don't know the Who, then the what, when & how is not going to help you and if you do know the Who (Jesus) then you can have peace beyond understanding.

1hole

04-17-2022, 09:46 AM

And, from 2nd Thessalonians we know it happens after the son of perdition comes out of the closet.

I'm trying to understand how you seem to see a direct connection from the SURPRISE! Rapture to be simultaneous with and following the start of the Tribulation period. I see no reason to believe the Rapture won't occur well before the rise of the A.C.

Consider this: Unlike God, Satan alone can't do much with his own power. The A.C is now constrained by the Holy Spirit indwelling the body of the Church; he cannot begin his evil until that restraint (us!) is removed (Raptured). Even then the beast with his master's help will need some significant amount of time to organise and set his plans into motion.

Thus, it seems probable that the appearance and political rise of Antichrist cannot realistically occur until well after the Rapture! So, IMHO, only a pre-Trib Rapture fits all the pieces together seamlessly.

We will know who the A.C. is when he actually comes "out of the closet" with world authority to sign a lying 7 year "peace treaty" with Israel. On that treaty signing day, (probably a few years after the Rapture), the first day of Tribulation begins. Humanly speaking, the political power to make such a treaty like that simply can't happen instantly!

I suspect it will be 2-4 years after the rapture before Satan's sneaky snake "beast" can gain that level of world authority.

Good Cheer

04-17-2022, 08:25 PM

1hole,
The world will have embraced a god. My expectation is that when Christ comes back that people all around the world will indeed be surprised. As previously stated, I've come to think that Christ's return happens after the two murdered witnesses stand up in the city, that it's going to be a big surprise as will be what 1st Thessalonians speaks to, that the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.

PS,
Hope you had a fine Resurrection Day.

MT Gianni

04-17-2022, 11:56 PM

My personal take is that we will be caught up and meet the Savior as he triumphantly returns to an Earth made new. When, where and what exactly will happen is less important than doing what he commanded.

Good Cheer

04-18-2022, 09:15 AM

Yep, of course it is more important. Like learning the parable of the fig tree. He said to learn it.

Thundarstick

04-18-2022, 11:50 AM

The issue here is the Rapture, not if it will occur pre, mid or post Trib. All we need to know about the timing is to read the scriptures as if they are true as stated. It not a contest of logic or other books or "I believe this and you (wrongly) believe that". Only what God says matters and his Book is where we find that.

Scripture says the Rapture will happen suddenly and without warning; that would not be the case if it were to occur at mid or post Trib. The Trib itself it would be an obvious warning of what's coming next if the Rapture should happen mid or post Trib. Therefore, pre Trib is the only possible "Surprise!" answer and it matters not what I may think it should be.

Bottom line; the Rapture is not a recent concept, it comes directly from New Testament scripture, the same as salvation by faith and not works, and it did NOT start in 1820.

It's a fact that the Rapture will occur suddenly and without warning, therefore it has to occur pre Trib. (Mat 24:44) ???

I'm saying, that for 1700 years of christiandom a pre-tribulation rapture wasn't preached, taught, or understood in scripture!

Then all the sudden John Nelson Darby developed this pre-tribulation theory and starts pre-tribulation doctrines, where it's included in the Schofield reference Bible. There is where it enters some main stream English speaking sects as scriptural teaching. Then with the Left Behind books and movies have become entrenched in the American Christian psychie. This doesn't make it true and, or scriptural at all.

The Church has been in a tribulation since its establishing, and in no way are believers taken out of these trials. That's just not scriptural at all. The Church in America is being attacked just as the church in Laodiecea, by wealth and ease.

GOPHER SLAYER

04-18-2022, 12:30 PM

From what I have seen of the tinfoil hats I am related to, they are waiting for the second coming of Trump or Jesus, I'm not sure which and they are confused by the interbabble of wonderful stuff.
Beware of manmade "stumblingblocks".

I ask them. "What are you doing?" No really. The flickering screen is no help.
"What are you doing to prepare for His Coming?"

My Savior said He would be right back. And soon.

We certainly need a second coming of Trump unless you are happy with the great job confused Joe is doing.

1hole

04-18-2022, 03:45 PM

We certainly need a second coming of Trump unless you are happy with the great job confused Joe is doing.

Off topic but true.

America and the world be much better off with Alfred E. Newman in the White House than brother Booboo Biden OR sister Kackling Harris. Or Peelousy. Or ..... etc. of the Democrat's brain dead craphouse crew.

1hole

04-18-2022, 06:11 PM

I'm saying, that for 1700 years of christiandom a pre-tribulation rapture wasn't preached, taught, or understood in scripture!

Historically, I'm saying that no one knows much about what was taught in the early churches, one way or the other because there are simply no records. We seem to know that not much of anything was standardized before the church in Rome declared itself boss of the world somewhere about 600-800 and, eventually, started calling itself "the universal true church", i.e., Roman Catholic.

By that time the ruling church leaders had no interest in teaching doctrines that couldn't be used to extract money from the people. And, to varying degrees, nothing they teach seems to have changed very much.

It's important to remember that the church reformers - Martin Luther and John Calvin - in the early 1500s were deeply immersed in RCC teachings and NONE of it included soteriology OR eschatology. They had a lot of other stuff heaped on their plates at that time (like staying alive) so it's not meaningful that neither of them addressed either topic directly.

Then all the sudden John Nelson Darby developed this pre-tribulation theory and starts pre-tribulation doctrines, where it's included in the Schofield reference Bible.

Rabid opponents of po' ol' Darby and Schofield have successfully accused both them of things they did not do. To the degree they started anything it was only to retrieve doctrines the RCC had dropped. But Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians and it's plainly written in the Book for all to see so it obviously isn't a diabolical invention crawling in from 1820.

Then with the Left Behind books and movies have become entrenched in the American Christian psychie. This doesn't make it true and, or scriptural at all.

You're faulting Darby and Schofield because of fictional secular books and movies they never saw and not one of whom even suggests they might be scripture? This is the USA so you are free to say that but it's a very long stretch with no end.

The Church has been in a tribulation since its establishing, and in no way are believers taken out of these trials. That's just not scriptural at all. The Church in America is being attacked just as the church in Laodiecea, by wealth and ease.

That's true so far as it goes but it's NOT true that the Church/Bride of Christ/true believers will go through seven years of Tribulation before the relief of the Rapture occurs. Otherwise there would be no purpose at all for the Rapture and God doesn't do anything without a good reason!

Bottom line, the Rapture is actually God's promised way of keeping his church out of the misery and devastation of the Tribulation! Sorta like what he once did for Noah and his family when they were caught up for safety during the early days of an unusually heavy rain storm.

Good Cheer

04-19-2022, 06:38 AM

The ark of the last days is a study I'd encourage any to make.

Good Cheer

04-19-2022, 06:41 AM

"Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians".
No.

farmbif

04-19-2022, 08:22 AM

1hole

04-19-2022, 10:28 AM

"Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians".
No.

No? Goodness!

How then do you account for Paul's inclusion of it in his letters?

Good Cheer

04-19-2022, 01:19 PM

It isn't.

1hole

04-19-2022, 01:59 PM

"Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians".
No.

"No" what?

I haven't yet figgered out if you think you've figgered out there will be no real Rapture at all or that the Rapture won't be a "Surprise!" or that the Rapture will be mid-Trib or the Rapture will be post the horrors of the great Trib or if you hold some otherwise unknown view; will you help me on that? ???

Good Cheer

04-19-2022, 02:50 PM

As previously stated, I think that Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.

Good Cheer

04-19-2022, 02:50 PM

Something that I suspect is that His return may be concurrent with winter solstice the same as the last time He physically came to Earth. And that you should pray that your flight be not in winter because that is what could happen if you had accepted the fake Christ, the one who comes first.

1hole

04-19-2022, 05:49 PM

As previously stated, I think that Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.

The two witnesses will be killed in the streets of Jerusalem and the Antichrist will desecrate the new temple's altar at mid-Trib. You think Jesus and the angelic clouds of heaven will physically return to earth at that time to be with us for the second half of the Tribulation?

Good Cheer

04-19-2022, 07:19 PM

Like I said, Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.
If you think you can tie it down closer than that, speak up and say how.

1hole

04-19-2022, 11:11 PM

Like I said, Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.

And as I have effectively said, so do I.

If you think you can tie it down closer than that, speak up ...

Tie "it" down and speakup? Well, okay, if your "it" is when does the second coming occur, I can easily pin the Lord's return to earth at the end of the Tribulation, i.e., 7 years after Antichrist signs a peace treaty with Israel and 3 1/2 years after the two witnesses are killed.

... and say how.

No.

Trying once gain to reason with a closed mind that not only refuses to listen and won't answer questions or make any attempt to reason back would be foolish. I sometimes do foolish things but I'm no fool.

I will tell you that the easiest way to understand scripture is to look at everything that touches a matter and accept all that is written, just the way it's written, and arrange the parts to fit with no loose ends hanging out. And do it without "spiritualizing" what's written to make it fit your preconceived theories.

-------------------------------------------

Interlude to anyone that cares:

The Rapture will suddenly take up the Church pre-Trib because the Trib will be the wrath of God. Believers, i.e., the Bride of Christ/Jesus' blood-bought Church, will never face the wrath of God. (It's in the Book!)

Instead, we'll all be celebrating with our Lord in heaven as the hells of Tribulation unroll on earth.
-----------------------------------------------

Cheer, study and learn the truth for yourself or not, as you wish, but ... believe me, you do need the study! :)

Good Cheer

04-20-2022, 07:58 AM

And what you need to do is to try harmonizing scripture concerning Christ's return as you would when observing differences in the gospels recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
So there, now that we agree to disagree and have told each other what we need to do from the heights of our self-acknowledge superior biblical scholarship perhaps someone will touch upon where the pre-trip rapture theory (PTRT) came from without the usual ad hominem attacks and trying to look down our noses with a key board.

Good Cheer

04-20-2022, 08:00 AM

People who study scripture often choose to concentrate on the English KJV because for those of us who speak American it is the one that has huge numbers of study resources is keyed to it. In somewhat a like manner the writings of David MacPherson concerning the PTRT have drawn so much flak, such a vociferous response from the proponents of the PTRT, that much has been written to attack him and what he wrote. That makes MacPherson an excellent place to start; if you want to be shocked then grab a lightening rod. My suggestion would be to get completely stoked on all things anti-PTRT and then immerse yourself in all the scholarship mankind has amassed that is pro-PTRT. Soak it all up. Digest it. Decide.

Some would ask, why is deciding important? My answer would be that if you approach scripture with a preconceived template in your mind (whether valid or not PTRT is such a preconceived template) then you will skew what you are given by scripture to fit your template. So be sure you are not choosing to believe a lie.

Good Cheer

04-20-2022, 08:19 AM

By the way, around twenty years or so ago when I obtained a couple of MacPherson's books, I came to suspect that he missed the boat on why Darby seized upon the PTRT. It looked like marketing to me, like he needed a new shtick to sell. Whether that's really the case or not afterwards the PTRT was examined and realized to be useful politically and pushed by some concerns with deep pockets. But then we'd get into just who and what Cyrus Scofield was, who picked him up and gave him a new coat of paint, a whole 'nother can of worms. For those interested in such things as this thread was opened to discuss, it really is a tale of intrigue beyond international in scope and fraught with mysteries both enlightened and mundane.

1hole

04-20-2022, 03:49 PM

... if you approach scripture with a preconceived template in your mind (whether valid or not PTRT is such a preconceived template) then you will skew what you are given by scripture to fit your template. So be sure you are not choosing to believe a lie.

First, I wonder who McPherson is and what he has written.

Second, I've been more or less studying eschatology for more than four decades but I only know "Darby" by the contempt that has been poured on him for simply recognizing and explaining what Biblical "dispensations" (Eph 1:10) actually mean; that one historical concept has cleared up more supposed Bible "contradictions" than any other single thing I know of. (If anyone can point to and prove any error in Schofield's excellent Bible dispensation footnotes I'd like to know where it can be found!)

Some 15 years ago I found a beautiful leather bound Schofield KJV lying undamaged on an Interstate Highway in Ohio; I didn't leave it there!

Since then I have heard/read many accusations about what Mr. Schofield supposedly "says". I have his study Bible and none of the known accusations have yet proven even close to true.

I have never read Schofield's position on PRTR "theory" if he has one but I know the Rapture precedes the Tribulation. It has clearly become a cottage industry for some folk to read what others have said about Schofield and Darby and then jump in to help degrade them both! That doesn't seem right to me.

I love the KJV, mostly because it's what I've known from infancy. I know it is filled with trivial translation errors (Like God the Holy Spirit is not a ghost!) but I know it fairly well and most in depth study books are keyed to it.

I have prayfully tested every professing Christian theological school I have access to but I have followed no man's "template" in my studies, not even my own! :) Fact is, I study to find Biblical truth. Therefore, I must honestly listen to other searching students because I know I can learn something from everyone and I will do so if I don't sneer at them first.

I know much more today than I used to but I'm still not a Bible expert. Since I don't "know it all" I can afford to learn from others, and I will learn if I actually listen to them.

I prayerfully examine and acid test my old ideas against new ideas rather than blindly holding onto what seems to support my preconceptions; that single practice has forced me to change many of my old beliefs, including a pre-Trib Rapture.

Thus, having found myself wrong in many details, I do not automatically sneer at presumably "lesser lights" like Darby, Larkin, Schaffer, Ryrie, Capps, Schofield, et al, (McPherson?) that didn't or at least don't immediately align with my thoughts. Meaning that while I immediately reject demonstrably erroneous Biblical ideas I don't slime the people I disagree with as profit motivated snakes.

By anyone's standards, I'm old but my mind still works fairly well and I'm still flexible enough to be able to learn. I've had to shift and revise "what I believe" many times in order to pick up and accommodate new and better perspectives. No one frozen in the concrete of his own mind will ever advance again.

May God help us all.

.429&H110

04-21-2022, 10:08 AM

+1 May God help us all!
Good prayer, that.
Beware putting stuff into the Bible because you want it to be there.
I'm not saying you are or aren't.
I'm saying stick to Scripture, not man's opinion of Scripture.
Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 4:
(Thank you BibleHub)

Servants of Christ

1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Amen

Nowhere does the Book say to twiddle your thumbs on a flickering screen.

1hole

04-21-2022, 09:45 PM

there is more written that has been found and rejected or edited out by rulers such as Constantine, one example is the book of Thomas. just what was written from those who actually knew Jesus and traveled and learned from him?

Farmer, a lot of plausible sounding crap about what might have been taken out of the Bible by Constantine and others has been written.

Fact is, no one in the early days of Christianity had any idea that something like the Bible as we know it would ever exist. There were no copyright rules then so no writings were standardised in their day. Even the KJV is not - and cannot be - copyrighted so anyone can manipulate it as they wish. (See the Jehovah Witness' "New World Translation Bible" and know it's neither a translation or a Bible, it's a sad corruption of the KJV.)

A LOT of spurious "bible" books were written in the early years but some of the old church leaders of that time pretty well knew which writings were valid and which were not. Thus, forgeries such as "Thomas" were left out but some are still floating around ... but they're still not accepted in the canon of God's inspired scriptures.

Much like King James in 1611, Constantine put his seal of approval on books a majority of the church leaders at the council in Nicea agreed on, circa 320 AD, and they made canon. But even then that list wasn't fully fixed until about 700 AD; those good men didn't rush to approve anything or ignore anything!

After the canon was established, the Roman church slowly started putting in some other books so they could have some sort of "scriptural" basis for their many new man-made teachings. Those extra Biblical writings were removed from "Protestant" Bibles in the 1500s but the frauds are still floating around.

Bottomline, I trust that mainline Bibles do contain all of the books Christians need to know.

farmbif

04-21-2022, 10:06 PM

points well made. I'm no theologian. I saw something about the Dead Sea scrolls or something over easter.. anyway, some of the interpretations of the Bible ive heard from some preachers. I just dont know how they can make up the stuff they say from reading the same verses they say they are referring to.
I guess I'm pretty simple that way I take at face value what is written and dont try to make up my own version of it like ive heard some preachers do.
there are some local preachers that ive heard preach and they just seem to make their own stuff up. and I feel pretty strongly about it, that is what's not for me

farmbif

04-21-2022, 10:14 PM

I gotta say this. I was at a very dear friends funeral. he was a very close friend and I miss him every day. there were three preachers at the funeral. and this one young guy kept going on and on that Jesus is make all the skeletons in the graveyard come up out of their graves and they be back alive living among us. he went on and on about how the skeletons are gonna rise up and come back to life. it just hit me wrong some of the stuff he was preaching.
and it wasn't just me, I asked a couple friends if they had ever heard such before and they were put off by what this guy was saying too.
maybe I'm just venting, excuse me if I'm out of line here. I really miss my buddy he was kind of like a dad to me in a lot of ways

1hole

04-22-2022, 10:13 PM

... this one young guy kept going on and on that Jesus is make all the skeletons in the graveyard come up out of their graves and they be back alive living among us. he went on and on about how the skeletons are gonna rise up and come back to life.

Nonsense. That's messed up doctrine coming from people who read something without understanding and walked away being positive about something real but that story doesn't mean what they think it means.

The valley of dry bones in Ezk 37:1-14 is the only possible basis of that story. It's "real" but it's not literal; no sacks of bones are walking around with us!

The dry bones account is a prophetic metaphor for the eventual restoration of the destroyed House of Israel, i.e. the nation of Jews. And that's no confused guess, that's what the Biblical account says it is!

Israel was crushed by the Romans and escaping remnants were scattered across much of the world in the AD 70 - 300 period. As a people, they were alive but they were effectively as dead and dry as a field of disconnected bones for hundreds of years but God wanted them to have faith that they were not forgotten by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; He would bring them back together in their own land and they would stand strong again!

As God promised, those widely scattered dry bones began to come back together about 1900 AD. After the holocaust of WW2, many Jews went "home" and Israel was reestablished as a sovereign country in May of 1948.

Today the blood line of Abraham once again stands in their promised land and on their feet; the "dry bones" live! :)

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

Markopolo

04-23-2022, 12:05 AM

Actually, to understand what the “rapture” is, you first need to understand what a traditional Galilee wedding looks like. When the father of the groom finally tells the groom to go get his bride, a procession goes to the brides house where she is “caught up” into a modified chair that is carried in the air to deliver the bride to the grooms house.

Everything that was spoken concerning the rapture and second coming was spoken to the disciples and they understood a Galilee wedding. Jesus spoke to them in terms that they completely understood. That is also why Jesus said “only the Father knows the day and time.” If you understand a Galilee wedding, you know that only the father of the groom knows when everything is in order, the feast is prepared, and can give the command to the groom to go claim his bride.

Nowhere else in the Middle East is a wedding done quite like it is traditionally in Galilee.

Marko

1hole

04-23-2022, 11:16 AM

Good information Marko. And understanding that traditional Jewish wedding process goes a long way to support a pre-Trib, pre-wrath of God Rapture and subsequent wedding of the Bride to Christ.

.429&H110

04-23-2022, 04:30 PM

Sorry about the sermon at the funeral, I have squirmed through a few of those.
We don't do that. We love our altar call at the end because it is necessary for some.
We have a celebration of life, because there is no death.
Good reverent fun.
We had our Pastor's celebration of life this year, with fried chicken and slaw.
Good man, I hope to see him soon.

Isn't that what the Rapture debate really is, all about a fear of dying?
And there is nothing you can do about it, except pray.
Even the scientism cult agrees the world will end, poor them.
You need only to have faith in the Owner's Manual.

That Faith is the only saving Grace for America.
Holy Spirit, I pray for Revival! Bring it on!

Or else. We are a generation away from being Moslem.
Don't think so? Check out Dearborn MI or DC.
I don't know what religion LA is, maybe none of the above?
The missionary we sent to Ukraine is fine, was in Kharkiv, got moved west.
The missionary we sent to San Francisco disappeared.
I hope they didn't eat him.

1hole

04-24-2022, 09:46 AM

Isn't that what the Rapture debate really is, all about a fear of dying?

I don't think so. In fact, I don't believe fear of death has any part of it. Surely no Christian who can read denies there will be a rapture; the question is at what point in time it will happen.

Our choices are (1) before the Tribulation starts; (2) halfway through the Tribulation; (3) after the Tribulation. To be sorta brief, the only answer that actually fits scripture is pre-Trib and that's for at least three reasons.

(1) The Tribulation will come when the wrath of God is poured over the earth. Several scattered scripture verses tell us that Christians will not experience the wrath of God; that's important to remember.

(2) After Paul tells us the Rapture is coming, he then tells us to encourage one another (1 Thess 5-11). It would be hard to encourage anyone if we had to first tell them about the coming Tribulation and then end up telling them, "But cheer up guys, everything will be wonderful after the Tribulation's hell-on-earth/wrath of God is over!" Naw, that doesn't work either, it's not at all encouraging. ??

(3) Remember that the "Church", the Bride of Christ, is not a building, it's the chosen people of God; WE are the Church. Revelation uses the word "church" many times in the first three chapters but then it isn't used again until about chapter twenty.

The only thing that makes sense to explain that sudden absence is that the Church will be gone during that time, we'll be raptured into heaven for the full seven years of tribulation. Then - finally - the raptured Church will return to earth with Lord Jesus who will finally stop all the fighting and misery we were shielded from.

So, the only time for the Rapture to occur that fits what we know without jamming it into some convoluted man-made theory is pre-Trib.

.429&H110

04-24-2022, 08:15 PM

1 hole that was very well put!
Apologies for thread hijack but
I have done my formal and informal Bible studies
and concluded that Jesus said He would be right back.
He didn't say when, He did say soon.

I am more concerned with the new evangelism, right now right here,
than with the New Jerusalem someday.

The Scientismists are scared to death of death.
They believe that when they are dead, they're dead.
To be a Christian (to me) means a rebirth, a change,
I am not the same person I was, thank you God.
When a nominal Christian dwells on Rapture etc.
I worry that they are missing the point.

If a hard-hearted God-hating evolutionist read the above 51 posts, would he or she or it say:
"Golly I wanna be a Christian too!".
Not likely.

The old evangelism has been canceled.
Door knocking
Tracts
Billboards
Inviting your friends to church
TV ads and "tele-evangelism"
Jesus on the history channel, brought to you by Disney.
Nobody can answer a phone anymore anyway
Spam filters
Religion blogs (oh my)
Good old fashioned face to face with masks six feet apart
Handing out Bibles, but Gideon has left the house, nobody reads.

What does the new evangelism look like?
It looks like me, looks like you; we are all we got.
We have to actually look like Christians.

Has been my limited experience that new believers and non-believers are very curious about Jesus, what He taught and what He did. This is as it should be- Gospel. I am a Christian, not a Paulian. If you try to expound on Noah in the boat, Adam and Eve had no bellybuttons, Daniel in the lions den, Second coming, virgin birth, they are going to say "Jewish folk tales".

You have heard this one...
A pastor walks into a bar and yells, "If you want to go to Heaven, wait for me outside!" A guy at the end of the bar calmly drinks his beer. Pastor gets in his face, "Don't you want to go to Heaven when you die?". "Oh, when I die? I thought you were going right now."

Told this one to our new pastor today:
Cowboy visited church, sat in the back row. He looked like a cowboy, walked like a cowboy, smelled like a cowboy. After service the preacher said to the cowboy, "This week I want you to pray about what to wear next Sunday". Cowboy showed up the next Sunday, preacher asked him "Didn't I tell you to pray about what to wear to church?"
"Yessir, I did. I asked God what to wear and God said He had never been to this church, so He didn't know either".

Last century we discovered we could sell Jesus, and people would buy Him. Then they were left alone with buyer's remorse. People nowadays are salesman-proof with very hard hearts. Only the Holy Spirit can convict and convert, change a man. We have to let Him.

Ghandi said: "I admire your Jesus, but I don't like His Christians".

America was once admirable. It can be again, if we can get back to majority Christian.
Doesn't matter which of the eleven sexes one identifies as, the Holy Spirit will bring peace to any tortured soul. Doesn't matter who or what you were, when you are re-born into a relationship with our Father.
We are here to serve God. That is our calling.

For $10,000,000,000 we bought a telescope "To explore the origins of the universe".
By my Book: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
A problem with their creation is they have to divide infinite energy by zero length.
My God can divide by zero.

TL;DR thank you for your patience.

1hole

04-25-2022, 02:27 PM

The old ways of personal evangelism have largely disappeared. But I believe it's probably more due to the warped world we now live in than changed Christians.

I've read that many city people now live in little electronic bubbles and don't engage in polite conversation with anyone as much as they used to do so I'd guess it's harder to cold approach non-believers than it used to be. And today's smug, intolerant, "respectful of others" - and very "liberal" - non-believers feel free to verbally attack and try to embarass any Christian they can trap in public places.

.429&H110

04-25-2022, 10:24 PM

What to do except the Book?

We support a missionary in India who was preaching on a corner when the crowd started throwing rocks. Police showed up, started throwing rocks, too. Tough crowd. When your audience ups with rocks, you know you have their attention. First you need an audience, then they need rocks.

.429&H110

04-25-2022, 10:43 PM

This is thread hijack, and perilously close to trolling.
Apologys.
I should start a thread.

Good Cheer

04-26-2022, 07:03 AM

"First, I wonder who McPherson is and what he has written."

I did too.
http://i.imgur.com/yJJaVSA.jpg (https://imgur.com/yJJaVSA)
My way of examining an issue is to examine the ins and outs of both sides. There are some really interesting pro-PTRT commentaries both in print and in audio/video format. Chuck Missler's are some of the most enjoyable I've come across.

deltaenterprizes

05-03-2022, 11:55 PM

I always thought that Matthew 24:40 was the basis for the idea of the rapture!
I am Lutheran and the rapture is not a part of our teaching.

Thundarstick

05-04-2022, 10:00 AM

If you read this verse in context (as in the days of Noah), the ones lost, destroyed, taken, seized upon, WHERE NOT THE SAVED! The left behind where the saved, Noah and his family. In the following chapter 25 the wise virgins "went out to meet him". We will rise up to meet the coming king in the clouds in an eternal body, not be taken away, but to meet the king who will dwell with man in a new (renewed) earth, as it was in the beginning! It's also consists with Matthew 13: 37-43 when Jesus explains the parable of the weeds! The wicked are the ones plucked up and thrown into the furnace, not the good crop!

Good Cheer

05-05-2022, 06:44 AM

Thundarstick, thank you for including that. I'd made myself a mental note to go look up the verses concerning one taken and one left, and here you did it for me.

The homestead provided to us going on ten years ago, we call "the Ark" in appreciation from understanding.

1hole

05-05-2022, 10:53 AM

I always thought that Matthew 24:40 was the basis for the idea of the rapture!
I am Lutheran and the rapture is not a part of our teaching.

My longest and strongest family buddy & wife are committed Lutherans so we've learned a lot about it from them; there's a lot they don't teach and a lot of what they do teach is wrong. You know, Lutherans are about as wrong on some issues as other denominations!

In the early 1500s Luther was a dedicated Roman Catholic priest who saw how badly they had moved from their original teachings.
He sought to restore - i.e., reform - his church but the entrenched powers threw him out instead.

Luther tried to save as much of Roman teachings as he could while cleaning out the corruptions. The RCC had never been interested in teaching the whole of scripture and they didn't even try to teach about end-times. Thus, neither did Luther, and his followers still don't. Neither do Roman Catholics. But, at least IMHO, everything in the Bible should be studied (2 Tim 3:16, 17).

Happily, my old friends are devout followers of Jesus. There's no Biblical requirement that anyone has to be a precisely correct theologian for salvation so our mistaken - on a few side issues - friends will get to the same Heaven as us; I like that! :)

I tell all that to say I believe there are phonies in every denomination, people are like that, but I also believe there are true followers of Christ in every denomination no matter how abdominal the denominations teaching are. God deals with people, one at a time, and NO orthodox denomination has a lock on the heart of God. But, being taught really bad doctrine certainly cuts down on the probability of anyone's salvation.

I fear for my family and friends who claim Christianity but follow Mormonism, Jehovah Witness and Adventist; they hold to a different gospel and a different Jesus than Paul's and I don't know how much individual slack God cuts for that! (Gal 1:8-9)

sledgehammer001

05-06-2022, 12:14 AM

It came to be common doctrine in Europe in the late 1800s. A girl had a 'vision from God' and the masses sucked it up like a dry sponge. Despite scripture to the contrary. Mark 24:25
Scripture warns us in the last days, people will seek pleasantries that tickle the ears.

1hole

05-06-2022, 04:00 PM

It came to be common doctrine in Europe in the late 1800s.

Sorry, but I'm lost.

What "it" was common European doctrine in the late 1800s?

A girl had a 'vision from God' and the masses sucked it up like a dry sponge.

What girl living where had what vision that the masses sucked up?

Despite scripture to the contrary."

Contrary to what?

Mark 24:25

????

Thundarstick

05-07-2022, 05:28 AM

Mark 13:25

Rapture doctrines where NOT common teaching in ANY Christian church until the late 1800s, starting in England and spreading to the USA, where it became very popular among some churches, but it's still not accepted doctrine among many others.

So I ask again! Why did it take 1700 years to come up with a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine?

1hole

05-07-2022, 08:25 AM

Thunder, your premise is wrong.

Basically, for the first 1,500 years there was ONLY the Roman Church. In that time there was a LOT of scripture that was ignored, as well as a lot that was simply invented.

With that history behind them, theologians were busy dealing with a lot of more pressing subjects. It took about another 300 years for anyone that we know of to pay attention to what Paul had taught - and written - about the (pre-Tribulation) Rapture but it was in the Book all the time.

Thundarstick

05-07-2022, 08:47 AM

1hole

05-07-2022, 05:59 PM

My friend, I believe it is rapture theory as a whole that's wrong and that scripture has been, and continues to be twisted to keep it alive.

You believe the rapture itself is wrong? Goodness! How then do you interpret 1 Thes 4:16, 17?

I'll note that "caught up" is the English translation of the Greek word "raptor" and it's from that that we get rapture; it was in the Bible for hundreds of years of Roman Catholic neglect and, as you observe, it still is by some folk.

Truth is, the Rapture doctrine (it's not a theory!) was and is written in plain language in scripture. Those who say otherwise have to twist the Written Word all out of shape to make their theory acceptable even to themselves.

Noah and family was sealed in, lifted up and protected from the horror and destruction of the flood. So too will the Church be lifted up, sealed in a heavenly place and protected from the horrors of the Tribulation.

Nothing in 1800 or since has any bearing on the Rapture doctrine as Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave it.

Good Cheer

05-08-2022, 08:41 AM

That's easy. Read the whole of chapter 4 for context, for both subject and object. Paul explains where those previously deceased are and their disposition with respect to Christ's return.
The previously deceased faithful He brings with Him.
Those yet living get changed.
Nothing complicated about that.

johnsonian09

05-08-2022, 09:02 AM

The idea of rapture was not taught in Christianity until after 1830s when a young lady had a “prophetic vision” as I recall the not that great doctors of the time did not believe she was of sound body and mind. As she had been chronically Ill for a long time.

She was also an irvinite cultist. But the priests believed her and so the fever dream became gospel.

Not trying to discredit anyones beliefs. I just looked this up a couple years ago and that’s the info I found…

I personally just try to keep to the basics that Jesus said way back when. Without all the ceremony and idolatry that’s commonly taught.

Happy shooting!

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1hole

05-08-2022, 09:28 AM

I personally just try to keep to the basics that Jesus said way back when.

Sounds good on the surface but I see two big problems with that.

1. If you take out everything but the red letters there wouldn't be much left. (But, that would make "Bible" study much less time consuming!)

2. Jesus didn't write scripture, men of God inspired by the Holy Spirit did, ALL of it, and there are no red letter scrolls. Thus, it is men who paint some letters black and some red, not God. Seems to me that the original inspiration of the Holy Spirit makes both the red letters and black letters equal and therefore equally demanding of study. (2 Tim 3:16-17) ??

johnsonian09

05-08-2022, 09:32 AM

I don’t understand what you mean by red and black letters.

I was referencing what the Bible physically has written down within itself vs the doctrine of mens churches, which changes from church to church. Yet they all claim to use the Bible with differing outcomes.

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Thundarstick

05-08-2022, 02:13 PM

I'll note that "caught up" is the English translation of the Greek word "raptor" and it's from that that we get rapture; it was in the Bible for hundreds of years of Roman Catholic neglect and, as you observe, it still is by some folk.

Sorry, but the Greek word used there is "harpazo", not raptor! It probably has more to do with the name of the harpy eagle than all birds of prey. The same word is used in 13 verses in the KJV Bible and is translated by different phrases in most of them. To build a theory on one poorly translated verse is very suspect. For instance: Jhn 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.: they weren't going to "rapture" Jesus, but take him by force and make him king! The SAME Greek word. I'll contend the reference translated as rapture is "taken by force". Christ shall TAKE BY FORCE, from DEATH, the GRAVE, and Satan his people! To dwell with him in a new earth, after a resurrection of the dead and transformation of our mortal body, we will go out to meet him in the clouds as a city welcoming home the triumphant king to dwell with man forever! This is the end of the plan to reunite God and man! Not some taking the church away while everyone else is put through some contrived tribulation.

johnsonian09

05-08-2022, 02:15 PM

Matt. 5:5, RS: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

Ps. 37:29, RS: “The righteous shall possess the land [“earth,” Ro, NW], and dwell upon it for ever.” (Also verses 10, 11, 34)

1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

The word rapture does not appear in the Bible. Gods worshippers have the opportunity to live forever on earth after Jesus comes again, to bring an end to this sorry state of affairs that we call a world governance. And the last enemy death, will be defeated because we will no longer sin. And death is sins wages.

When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?

1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (Evidently some members of the Christian congregation in Thessalonica had died. Paul encouraged the survivors to comfort one another with the resurrection hope. He reminded them that Jesus was resurrected after his death; so, too, at the coming of the Lord, those faithful Christians among them who had died would be raised to be with Christ.)

The bringing together of Christian’s into the air and clouds in this part of the book is figurative, to be poetic. To comfort the friends of those who died.

1st Corinth 15:51-Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,52in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

Matt24:30 -Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

the clouds of heaven: Clouds tend to obstruct vision rather than facilitate it, but observers can “see” with eyes of understanding.—Ac 1:9.

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1hole

05-08-2022, 02:16 PM

I personally just try to keep to the basics that Jesus said way back when.

Seems I misunderstood what you meant, sorry 'bout that.

I thought you meant you read the basic "red" letters, the words specifically attributed to Jesus, as opposed to the black letter words some people call the "words of men."

I've had discussions with a few men who insist that the only parts of the Bible we should care about are the red words of Jesus, and that only in the KJV because, after all, it's the only "authorised" version! They said the black words were only what some old men had written so they couldn't be relied on for truth like the red words!!

johnsonian09

05-08-2022, 02:26 PM

Seems I misunderstood what you meant, sorry 'bout that.

I thought you meant you read the basic "red" letters, the words specifically attributed to Jesus, as opposed to the black letter words some people call the "words of men."

I've had discussions with a few men who insist that the only parts of the Bible we should care about are the red words of Jesus, and that only in the KJV because, after all, it's the only "authorised" version! They said the black words were only what some old men had written so they couldn't be relied on for truth like the red words!!

Ahh yes I can see how you came to that conclusion. Yes I read the collection of books as a whole body. Not picking and choosing. I do believe the Bible’s authors are inspired. As Jesus himself didn’t pen a single letter of it. Lol that would leave me with nothing to read and I’d have no hope left then.

It’s only the non-biblical based doctrine and ideas of men I reject in a theological sense.

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1hole

05-08-2022, 03:03 PM

The word rapture does not appear in the Bible.

The word "Bible" doesn't appear in the Bible; nor does the "Trinity". Those are doctrinarial words we use to identify the subjects for discussion sake because the realities are in there.

Some Greek words are translated into English, some are not. "Baptism" is an untranslated word the means "washed clean". "Deacon" means "server at tables". "Rapture" isn't in the Bible because it's been translated as "caught up", we only use the word Rapture to identify the doctrine of being "caught up" to be with the Lord.

When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?

The subject was the Rapture. But it can't be understood without knowing the Rapture precedes the Tribulation and is NOT the second coming of the Lord to establish his kingdom on earth.

Paul had obviously taught that church a lot but I suspect it was like drinking from a fire hose; they didn't get it all. They were alarmed that some of them had died and feared those dead had missed the (pre-Trib) rapture.

Paul wrote that brief chapter (1 Thess 4) to assure them that not only had those dead not missed the Rapture (the Rapture being the huge first wave of resurrection of deceased believers) but the dead would be raised a moment before those still living were translated. THAT is why Paul ended the topic by telling them to encourage, reassure and comfort each other with his words. There would be little in his message to comfort anyone if they had to endure the Trib before the Rapture of the Bride of Christ/Church could come!

1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

The bringing together of Christian’s into the air and clouds in this part of the book is figurative, to be poetic. To comfort the friends of those who died.

It's just figurative? That's puzzling. Do you really mean the whole Rapture account is just a well meaning lie?

johnsonian09

05-08-2022, 04:42 PM

To be more clear I answered the rhetorical question that was:

“When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?”

And before answering I prefaced it with these to show evidence

Matt. 5:5, RS: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

Ps. 37:29, RS: “The righteous shall possess the land [“earth,” Ro, NW], and dwell upon it for ever.” (Also verses 10, 11, 34)

1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

With:

(Evidently some members of the Christian congregation in Thessalonica had died. Paul encouraged the survivors to comfort one another with the resurrection hope. He reminded them that Jesus was resurrected after his death; so, too, at the coming of the Lord, those faithful Christians among them who had died would be raised to be with Christ.)

After citing the section of chapter 4:13-18

The bringing together of Christian’s into the air and clouds in this part of the book is figurative, to be poetic. To comfort the friends of those who died.

1st Corinth 15:51-52 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

Matt24:30 -Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

the clouds of heaven: Clouds tend to obstruct vision rather than facilitate it, but observers can “see” with eyes of understanding.—Ac 1:9.

My argument against the rapture is multi faceted. In order of previously cited scriptures:

1&2) Gods will in the Bible is for all human Christian’s to live forever upon the earth

3) a fleshly body cannot enter heaven. You would have to physically die to enter heaven. So there is no point of resurrecting someone long dead just to kill them a second time.

4) the secret is: some humans will survive the tribulation. And be made sinless. And the dead raised will be sinless. Once you have died, you have paid for your sins. The wages sin pays is death. That doesn’t mean you’ll be dead forever.

5) another reference to clouds and air being a poetic statement. They won’t see god or Jesus. But they will know.

Further citations to show that resurrection will take place on earth after the tribulation. Let’s establish a timeline for how things will end in order:

Destruction of false religions: rev17:1-5, 15-18
And 18:9/10

Armageddon stages:

Judgement of those alive on earth: Matt 25:31-46

Destruction of ungodly people/ opposers rev16:14-16

Destruction of specifically world governments rev 19:19-21

Complete. Tribulation has ended.

Begin a new world by: imprisoning demons and satan rev20:1-3

Resurrection stage:
Millennium of teaching faithful people and those who died to a resurrection of judgement, a time to teach and be taught gods way of living rev20:4-6

Final test for humans, satans release rev 20:7

God resides with men. Sin and death no longer plague humans living on earth
Rev 21:1-4

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johnsonian09

05-08-2022, 04:54 PM

It's just figurative? That's puzzling. Do you really mean the whole Rapture account is just a well meaning lie?

I believe that section is meant largely to be poetic. Like when it says in psalms 72 he will flourish until the moon is no more. It means forever. Not that on a new moon he will abandon him or that if he wanted to abandon him on a specific time he’d wipe out the moon first. Just means forever.

Nor do I believe you have been maliciously lied too or that your being malicious by defending it. And I sincerely hope don’t find me to be malicious by presenting evidence to refute the idea of a rapture. Just simply in my study I find more evidence against it then for it.

Prov.14:15

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1hole

05-08-2022, 08:36 PM

I believe that section is meant largely to be poetic.

A lot of well meaning people "believe" a lot of very wrong things for reasons that seem good to them. Sadly, I don't even put a lot of faith in what I "believe", therefore I read a lot of things but I only believe what I see in the Word.

I see no "poetic" farce in the Rapture; going down that road casts away the only anchor we have for believing anything in scripture!

I sincerely hope don’t find me to be malicious by presenting evidence to refute the idea of a rapture.

Goodness, NO! In fact I highly respect anyone who is willing to argue anything they believe, respectfully and point by counterpoint. I've been married to the old woman sitting across the room from me right now for 62 years (the miles do show but she still looks like my 17 yr. old bride to me). If we couldn't strongly disagree without anger one of us would already be dead and the other in prison for life! ;)

Come quickly Lord Jesus!

1hole

05-09-2022, 09:51 PM

Addressing the easiest errors in your list:

3)... a fleshly body cannot enter heaven. You would have to physically die to enter heaven. So there is no point of resurrecting someone long dead just to kill them a second time.

When the Lord returns and stops the Tribulation, the saved mortals who died in the Tribulation will be resurrected with immortal bodies, ready to enter heaven and stand in the presence of God. Thus, there's no reason for God to repeat the dead/live process. (Actually, as I count them, there are at least four waves of resurrections of the dead, maybe five, but it's certainly not just one.)

4) the secret is: some humans will survive the tribulation. And be made sinless. And the dead raised will be sinless. Once you have died, you have paid for your sins. The wages sin pays is death. That doesn’t mean you’ll be dead forever.

First, the resurrected of all ages will have the heart of God written on their hearts (Heb 10:16). They will then live sinless because their hearts will at last conform to what wants and that's best for all of us.

Second, Jesus has already paid for my sins and I had nothing to do with it. (Eph 2:8-9)

Third, nothing says those who survive the Tribulation and are then allowed to repopulate the Lord's Millennial Kingdom (not the eternal Heaven on Earth) might be sinless and they certainly won't be immortal. (Isa 65:20)

johnsonian09

05-09-2022, 11:01 PM

Please explain further what you mean:

“ When the Lord returns and stops the Tribulation, the saved mortals who died in the Tribulation will be resurrected with immortal bodies, ready to enter heaven and stand in the presence of god.”

My understanding of the idea of a rapture occurring, is that Jesus is supposed to save people before the tribulation occurs. When in fact, the faithful are meant to survive through it on the earth.

Also that statement conflicts with the fact that blood and flesh (physical bodies) can not enter heaven. Unless by “Immortal bodies” you mean to say the person has died in order to assume a spirit-angel like form to serve in heaven.

Also I fail to see how this does not support my own argument. Here we are saying the same thing with different words.

“First, the resurrected of all ages will have the heart of God written on their hearts (Heb 10:16). They will then live sinless because their hearts will at last conform to what wants and that's best for all of us.”

And as for this:

“Second, Jesus has already paid for my sins and I had nothing to do with it. (Eph 2:8-9)”

Well, yes both are true. The we pay for our sins when we die as-well but because we are sinners we are unable to be redeemmed. Jesus is the basis of our being resurrected, because he died a innocent man without sin, so we can come back. Thus making death temporary. Also, in the Old Testament. Innocent animals paid for our sins to make gods worshippers clean. So we would be able to come to god in prayer. But this was a temporary provision only to last until Jesus came to earth. Which is also why we should pray through Jesus, as he died for us to become our bridge to God.

As for:

“Third, nothing says those who survive the Tribulation and are then allowed to repopulate the Lord's Millennial Kingdom (not the eternal Heaven on Earth) might be sinless and they certainly won't be immortal. (Isa 65:20)”

The whole point of the millennial kingdom is the timeline in the name. It’s a theocratic government designed to return humans to the perfection that Adam lost. By educating us about God and resurrecting all those righteous and unrighteous( probably those who in life never had the opportunity come to love god in their original life). To a resurrection of life and a resurrection of judgement.

So we can all attain perfect human life on earth. And prove individually our loyalty to God when Rev20:7 happens and satan is released from the abyss at the end of the thousand year period.

Those who survive tribulation, and those resurrected have to get past this to gain eternal life with God. And even then, they could lose it at some point after. As even Satan was once a perfect angel. Even an immortal spirit creature can lose their way from God and lose their life.

The only reason God didn’t wipe satan out originally was because satan knew better then to question gods power. He questioned his sovereignty. Like a rebellious teenager. Gods right to rule mankind was questioned. Gen3:5

1hole

05-11-2022, 10:17 PM

Those who survive tribulation, and those resurrected have to get past this to gain eternal life with God. And even then, they could lose it at some point after. As even Satan was once a perfect angel. Even an immortal spirit creature can lose their way from God and lose their life.

Within man's valid interest, there are two kinds of spiritual beings; the lost and those cleansed by the Holy Spirit and forever sealed in the Church. They - we - are "once saved, always saved" or, as I prefer to say it, "If we are born again we are new creatures in Christ so we are born again forever". Meaning that no born again child of God will ever be un-born again and cast out of God's family.

The Church, the Bride of Christ - they being the believers from Pentecost to the Rapture - is a different group from other believers. Only the blood bought Church has been cleaned (spiritually baptised) and eternally indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Those souls who will come to faith in Jesus during the Tribulation/Mil. Kingdom don't appear to be so indwelt and sealed so they probably are the ones who can lose their salvation if they do not stand strong to their end.

Satan and his demons have no part in God's plan for His followers so no spiritual analogy for them can properly apply to us.

Roman Catholics have long been taught that a Christian's salvation can be lost if he doesn't do enough good works but if that's true then what in the world was any lost soul truly saved from by the blood of Christ? That doesn't compute in my mind but, sadly, a lot of bad Catholic doctrine such as that was brought along in the Reformation so some groups still wrongly teach the same thing.

That one error deprives everyone who believes it from possessing the blessed peace of Christ which passes understanding. The Lord's own people should never live in fear of not making the grade! (See John 14:27-31, Eph 2:8-14).

My bed calls ....

1hole

05-12-2022, 11:30 AM

John, you make issue about resurrected people as if they will still be perishable "flesh and blood" as they were before their death; that's not true.

When this corruptible (mortal) tent dies it's gone. At the moment of resurrection our bodies will be as Jesus' body, meaning incorruptible and therefore immortal (1 Cor 15:53). Our resurrected bodies will have no more hazard from being in the direct presence of God than Jesus' resurrected body. (1 John 3:2,3). Once we are raised there will be no more dying for any reason! (Rev 21:4-6)

We don't/can't know if Jesus' resurrected body is flesh and blood as we know it but it's surely physical and we will be like Him soooo?

Heaven will be on a remade earth. We, being physical, aren't going to sit around on clouds playing harps while singing forever. I know that because heaven will be perfect and any place where I start singing would be less than perfect! (But I listen to singing real good. ;))

1hole

05-25-2022, 07:23 PM

Please explain further what you mean:

“ When the Lord returns and stops the Tribulation, the saved mortals who died in the Tribulation will be resurrected with immortal bodies, ready to enter heaven and stand in the presence of god.”

Any believer's body that God raises from the grave OR converts while alive will be raised in perfection, i.e., they will be immortal at that moment.

Many denominations teach that the saved of all ages are the Bride of Christ (a.k.a., the "called out" people of the true church) and all of them are usually expected to be raised at the same time ... but that's not true. The first (small) wave of believer's resurrections was with Jesus. The second (next) wave will occur at the rapture. A third wave of raised dead will come at the end of the Great Tribulation. The fourth and final wave of believers will arise at the end of the millennial Kingdom.

There will only be one resurrection for the lost and that one will come just before the Great White Throne judgments.

The "Church" are those of the blood bought Bride of Christ. The Bride is limited to the spiritually cleansed and Holy Spirit indwelt and spiritually sealed people who come to Jesus between his physical death and the Rapture[/U]. (Just getting that one definition right dissolves a lot of end times puzzles!)

It is the Church, meaning the specially "called out" ones, that will suddenly be "caught up" - a.k.a., "raptured" - at the trumpet's call to the present heaven for seven years (at least) for the wedding feast of Christ and his bride. After that, Jesus will return on a white horse, along with his bride (us) and a host of angels. Jesus will immediately stop the tribulation wars and disasters, he will slay the surviving gentile and Jewish non-believers with his sword and start the millennial kingdom with the survivors ... a kingdom which will be much different than what most gentiles ever thought of (but that's a topic for another day!)

The surviving Tribulation people will be sifted; they and the believing dead of the Tribulation will be raised and we will all work together to set up and manage the Lords' Millennial Kingdom on earth. THAT "kingdom" will be much different than most people seem to realise and it will be a time of great peace and long life but it will not be the eternal "heaven on earth".

After the Millennial Kingdom passes, all believers who died during the 1,000 years AND the lost dead of all ages will finally be resurrected. Angels will separate the sheep vs. goats, the wheat vs. chaff, the good fish vs. stinky fish, etc., (Mat 24:29-31) and the Great White Throne court will be opened for justly sentencing the lost for all the hurtful things they did in the flesh (Rev 20:12). And I'm guessing that God's cleaning of earth by fire and its final sinless resurrection will be going on at the same time.

My understanding of the idea of a rapture occurring, is that Jesus is supposed to save people before the tribulation occurs.

Sorta. If by "saved", you mean the Bride (Church) of Christ is raptured and taken away from the earthly horrors of the coming Tribulation, that's true.

When in fact, the faithful are meant to survive through it on the earth.

IF you're equating all of those who came to faith between the crucifiction and rapture with those believers converting during the Tribulation as the same, they are not the same. Born again believers in Jesus' Christ and New Covenant as the blood bought Bride of Christ - well, they are NOT the same as believers in other dispensations.

Once a new covenant salvation is gained and a believer is born again as a new creature in Christ he cannot be lost again; "greater is He that's within than he who is outside" (1 John 4:4). I ask you, "If it's possible for a born-again man of faith to lose his eternal salvation what in the world would he actually have ever been saved from?" (And, if he were indeed lost again, would it be possible for him to be reborn again?)

Truth is, when a new baby, physical or spiritual, is born he cannot be unborn again. And, if he were to be unborn again, he surely couldn't be reborn again, could he? Naw, when you look at it hard, that whole idea really doesn't compute! :)

The book of Revelation only mentions the church/Bride of Christ in the first four chapters and then not again until after the rapture of the Bride AND the seven years of heavenly marriage AND the wedding supper in Jesus' Father's house. Only after the Tribulation AND the Millennial Kingdom accounts are completed (timeline in Rev. chapter 19) is the church or bride mentioned again; I believe that's significant!

BUT, those who come to faith in Jesus before the Church Age closes, meaning after the Lord's ascension and before the rapture, the unique age of salvation by faith alone through Jesus alone are granted the gift of unearned, undeserved love/grace spiritual security as it's offered to us by Jesus' blood sacrifice in his New Covenant (Mat 26:28, Lk 22:20).

There's no Biblical suggestion that any other peoples are born-again and therefore special Holy Spirit indwelt believers. I absolutely believe "once saved, always saved" is true but I also believe it only applies to believers coming to faith between the cross and the rapture.

That means those who "believe" after the rapture but then take on the "666" mark in the Tribulation to save their life for a moment longer will forfeit any spiritual salvation they might have obtained - and THAT'S quite clear! (Rev 14:9)

The Lake of Fire judgement will be a legal sentencing of rejecting individuals. But, unlike the seven years of Tribulation, the lake of fire is not the same as God's wholesale wrath of Great Tribulations that will be visited on the whole surface of earth.

The Holy Spirit is now restraining Satan's great destructive power over the earth. The H.S. is not going to withdraw his hand and abandon us, the Bride of Christ, to suffer the coming wrath of God on earth. Instead, God will take Jesus' Bride out of this place when the time is right because the events of the Tribulation of God's blanket wrath to be visited on those who reject his Son is not for us. Christians of this age are not going to face the tribulation wrath of God.

Also that statement conflicts with the fact that blood and flesh (physical bodies) can not enter heaven. Unless by “Immortal bodies” you mean to say the person has died in order to assume a spirit-angel like form to serve in heaven.

I said nothing about flesh and blood bodies surviving in the presence of God the Father but Isaiah did it and he survived so... maybe? (Isaiah 6:1). In fact, I don't say anything about spiritual bodies and don't think anyone else needs to; Paul does it very well.

We're told that the transition from one body form to the other, mortal to immortal, changes people in the twinkling of an eye and no one will be resurrected without that change. Thus, there is no need for men to die for that change to happen!

Paul describes the instant change and vast difference between our flesh/mortal bodies and our spiritual/immortal bodies quite well. And I'll note there will be no flimsy "ghost" stage in it either. (1 Cor 15:35-58)
---------------------------------------------------------

Johnson, I haven't been ignoring your two week old post. You have raised a lot of points. I've read it maybe ten times trying to figure how to best respond and I still don't have it all together.

Fact is, I'm not much of a writer but I do love Bible study; it's easy for me to get so "wordy" that most people in a quip-happy world won't even read it! That's why I pick a few quoted points to address and try to quickly focus on the aspects I see as the most significant.

This isn't a perfect answer to your excellent list of questions, and it's by no means comprehensive, but it is my best effort to answer you with scripture (and, okay, a few of my noted opinions) while trying to be reasonably clear and brief.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus! (Rev 22:20) :)
----------------------------------------------------

Bottom line, a lot of people strongly suggest end times study really isn't important enough for Christians to bother with. But God inspired Paul to write Timothy and us that all of scripture is important enough to study (2 Tim 3:16) and that's enough to cause me to disagree with the disagreers.

Fact is, there's just ONE Bible book that twice speaks of special blessings for those who choose to study it. (Rev. 1:3 and 22:17-19)

Bottom line, the Bible study of end times is supposed to comfort and encourage Christians, not scare us out of our gourds. Prophecy is only scary if we don't study it enough and therefore read it wrongly! Scripture tells us that God's chosen people, the Bride of Christ/Church, will be raptured away shortly before the Great Tribulation's thick Brown Stuff Hits The Fan. (Peanut butter of course.)

Reading today's signs of the coming rapture and following Tribulation says it's probably not very far away but scripture also tells us that when it does come Christians of this age will have nothing to worry about (Mat 16:1-4). I'm sorry about the others tho; they do need to be scared!

Good Cheer

05-26-2022, 07:05 AM

I like the way a teacher once said it, to pinch yourself; if it hurts Jesus hasn't returned and the one you're looking at is the pretender. That was for the pretrib rapture crowd who are expecting Jesus to come first.

1hole

05-26-2022, 01:24 PM

Good Cheer

05-26-2022, 04:12 PM

Rapture is a song by Blondie, not in scripture.

Thundarstick

05-26-2022, 05:06 PM

Rapture is a song by Blondie, not in scripture.

Sir, I must concur!

1hole

05-26-2022, 07:23 PM

Sir, I must concur!

Doesn't matter if you concur now, you'll both change your minds when it comes! :)

Good Cheer

05-27-2022, 07:04 AM

Or shall it be that when a beautiful supernatural being appears claiming to be Christ, you will be given strong delusion and believe a lie? I'm not closed minded on all this because not only is scripture alive and expanding in the mind of any one person, but we are in the times of Him sending dreams and visions which are also of God. It's just that what He has already said doesn't agree with you and I have to decide who to follow.

.429&H110

05-27-2022, 10:20 AM

"...bother to study..."?
When you are preaching to the choir, you can teach Revelation on a Wednesday night.

Apologetics has to start with Genesis, but you are teaching the ending first.
When we teach math, we don't start with Trigonometry.
The acolytes of Scientism deny any miracles, deny miraculous.
They are stuck with cause and effect, no soul, dead is dead.

We have to teach the miraculous.
Christmas is about a miracle.
Most people believe in Christmas, or did until Disney bought it.
Easter is the basis of our Faith, a miracle.
Noah in his boat, the Lord shut the door.
The Book shows God above cause and effect.
Prayer is about us unhappy with cause and effect, so we ask of God.
And He surely answers.

If we are going to save America we need a new evangelism.
If a person doesn't believe in God's Promises
or hasn't even heard of any, then Revelation is not the place to start.

Missionary told me China has more Christians than members of their communist party, so the party's worried.

2 Timothy 2
The Lord's Approved Workman

14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

1hole

05-27-2022, 10:40 AM

Or shall it be that when a beautiful supernatural being appears claiming to be Christ, you will be given strong delusion and believe a lie?

Cheer, the Rapture isn't a critical doctrine but it is Biblical and that alone makes it important.

You just don't get it so your presumed timeline and perception of events is scrambled.

Truth is, the pretrib Rapture of the Church will be a sudden event, it will come with no warning. Understood correctly, the Rapture is comforting, not fearful (1 Thess 4:18).

The "strong delusion" passage you mention is and will be a warning for those who are left behind - AFTER the Church is "caught up". The Rapture will see no Christian left behind to go through the "Wrath of God" Tribulation, not even you. :)

I'm not closed minded on all this because not only is scripture alive and expanding in the mind of any one person, but we are in the times of Him sending dreams and visions which are also of God. It's just that what He has already said ....

You're not "close minded"? Well, I wonder if you've yet read a single one of the Bible passages I've posted? (I haven't read any of your supports because you've not given us any!)

"He has already said" that believers - his children - are not subject to his wrath. I take that to certainly include the coming wrath of His seven years of Tribulation. (I'm sure you know it's there but you ignore 1 Thess 5:9 ... I don't!)

So, as usual in your stout disagreements, you cite no supporting scripture for your fuzzy position, you just wave your hands in the air and tell the world about your specious "dreams". I believe you will need more than just telling people what you "think" to change many minds! ???
--------------------------------------

A postscript to those who would like to quickly read the noted scriptures: Just type what you want to read in the search line of your computer and hit ENTER!

.429&H110

05-27-2022, 12:53 PM

It was DL Moody that taught to write out Scripture
because he noticed that few people will ever open a Bible.

Good Cheer

05-27-2022, 02:02 PM

Cheer, the Rapture isn't a critical doctrine but it is Biblical and that alone makes it important.

You just don't get it so your presumed timeline and perception of events is scrambled.

Truth is, the pretrib Rapture of the Church will be a sudden event, it will come with no warning. Understood correctly, the Rapture is comforting, not fearful (1 Thess 4:18).

The "strong delusion" passage you mention is and will be a warning for those who are left behind - AFTER the Church is "caught up". The Rapture will see no Christian left behind to go through the "Wrath of God" Tribulation, not even you. :)

You're not "close minded"? Well, I wonder if you've yet read a single one of the Bible passages I've posted? (I haven't read any of your supports because you've not given us any!)

"He has already said" that believers - his children - are not subject to his wrath. I take that to certainly include the coming wrath of His seven years of Tribulation. (I'm sure you know it's there but you ignore 1 Thess 5:9 ... I don't!)

So, as usual in your stout disagreements, you cite no supporting scripture for your fuzzy position, you just wave your hands in the air and tell the world about your specious "dreams". I believe you will need more than just telling people what you "think" to change many minds! ???
--------------------------------------

A postscript to those who would like to quickly read the noted scriptures: Just type what you want to read in the search line of your computer and hit ENTER!

Others on this forum have already pointed out some of your obvious errors and you have ignored their kind words of correction.
Yet you persist.

johnsonian09

05-27-2022, 02:40 PM

Hi 1hole,

I’ve been away for a week or two and glanced over your and others follow up questions and arguments.

The reason I believe you yourself admit that you can’t find an answer to counter my points in scripture is because the idea of a rapture for the general populace of a tribulation period earth is largely incorrect.

If you wish to discuss deeper into the topic feel free to PM me. Because the studied answers to those questions go beyond the scope of the main question posed here being:

“when did this idea of rapture appear?”

Yes some humans will go to heaven and serve with Jesus. But it’s not a whole church full. And most people wouldn’t even want to be part of the bride of Christ. And even the best believers will still have to endure through the tribulation and the following millennial kingdom. If you want to study this topic I suggest you start in genesis and meditate on Gods original design for all his creation on earth. And look for what you have been taught that conflicts with his original design. No one can build a house in sand. Start your study at the foundation. And build up from that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1hole

05-27-2022, 08:24 PM

Ah well, ... I don't beat my head against walls very often and I've tried long enough.

I'll look for all of you after the Rapture and we'll talk of it then. :)

johnsonian09

05-27-2022, 08:36 PM

On a side note. God is love. A loving god will not abandon those earnestly seeking to find him, his truth and to do his will. Regardless of technical differences. I’m not saying all roads lead to God. I’m saying he can read our hearts and he knows who is longing for him. And he will come knocking on your door one day to lead the way. Not burn you in hell if you believe the proper day of rest is Saturday instead of Sunday, or whatever arbitrary difference you subscribe too.

If you honestly doing your best, seeking to find him. He’s going to take note and teach you his will. As long as you don’t turn him away when he shows up I’m sure he will welcome us all with open arms :)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dannyd

06-02-2022, 03:27 PM

Check out Rev. Clarence Larkin's book "The Book of Revelation" copyright 1919; he explains the Rapture very well.

Me I'm just like the Nipper the RCA Victor dog " Waiting to hear my masters voice that would the shout" :)

MT Gianni

06-03-2022, 09:42 AM

If the Rapture doctrine is true, what happens to children born during the tribulation? Are they never given the chance to be equal with those raptured?

JonB_in_Glencoe

06-03-2022, 10:50 AM

If the Rapture doctrine is true, what happens to children born during the tribulation? Are they never given the chance to be equal with those raptured?

that's a great question.
Let me add a couple questions that are related.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 says the following, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"we" is defined earlier in verse 14, "we believe that Jesus died and rose again"

Can "we" believers, chose not to be raptured? (you know, those of us that believe in Jesus, but don't believe in Pre-trib rapture.)
...Right after this Pre-trib rapture, will there be any believers left behind?
if not, what is the tribulation all about? if there are no believers to witness to those left behind.

1hole

06-04-2022, 11:55 AM

If the Rapture doctrine is true, what happens to children born during the tribulation? Are they never given the chance to be equal with those raptured?

Specious question but meaningless. I mean, what has always been true for dying children? God measures the heart, not man's check lists of do/don't do works. That means children and feeble minded adults who don't know right from wrong appear to get a "free pass" into God's heaven.

Spiritually cognizant people born before and after the Church Age, i.e., the John 3:16 Age of Salvation by Faith alone in Lord Jesus alone between His resurrection and the sudden indwelling/sealing of the Holy Spirit at pentecost until the (pre-Trib) Rapture are the "born again Bride of Christ". That doesn't mean their future won't be as blessed as ours but it will be different in ways we now know nothing of.

The only heavenly thing we can know for sure about God's little children of any era is that they will be well taken care of.

1hole

06-04-2022, 01:10 PM

Can "we" believers, chose not to be raptured? (you know, those of us that believe in Jesus, but don't believe in Pre-trib rapture.)
...Right after this Pre-trib rapture, will there be any believers left behind?

if not, what is the tribulation all about? if there are no believers to witness to those left behind.

First, God's end times plans are his and that doesn't depend on us believing anything. Those poor folk who are not spiritually "born again" at the Rapture are, by definition, not the Bride of Christ and nothing else matters. There is nothing in scripture to support the odd idea that "some born again folk will go this way and some will go that way" at the pre-trib Rapture, depending on what they believe.

Bottom line, Jesus says his followers will be raised in perfection but non-believers clearly will not and, from that, we can deduce that no believers will ever be left behind. (Matt 7:27 and on) ???

Who will be the primary world wide evangelical witness team during the Tribulation? God's 144,000 selected, protected and empowered Jews! (Rev 7:1-10)

wmitty

06-04-2022, 08:58 PM

Is there any chance the tribulation described could be the tribulation 1.1 million Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans in A D 70? Was the Revelation of Jesus Christ written before this event? What does He mean when He says “ in the Glory of the Father “? Could it possibly mean a return in a spiritual , glorified body?

farmbif

06-04-2022, 09:02 PM

if you live your life right why should it matter,. when the good lord calls you home that's when you will know. everything else is just talk.

1hole

06-05-2022, 08:44 AM

Is there any chance the tribulation described could be the tribulation 1.1 million Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans in A D 70?

There were shadows of the coming Great Tribulation in AD 70 - and there is a minor chunk of Christians who believe it was - but there is no chance the events of AD 70 were the Great Tribulation of Revelation. It's not even close; Revelation's seven years of trials include many horrors that have not yet been seen on earth.

wmitty

06-05-2022, 08:39 PM

1hole

Thanks for responding. My concern is that in Revelation 20, it sounds like John is describing the martyrs who were murdered and made spiritually alive: those experiencing the first (spiritual) resurrection. This is happening during Christ’s reign, as I understand it. Just trying to get this all worked out in my mind. Guy’s thanks for everyone commenting; I am very ignorant regarding events taking place in the tribulation and I do appreciate what has been brought to light.

1hole

06-08-2022, 09:06 PM

My concern is that in Revelation 20, it sounds like John is describing the martyrs who were murdered and made spiritually alive:

IMHO, you are correct.

Few people get that correct because they mentally squash all physical deaths and all resurrections together as if they stand alone, in isolation from everything else that also applies; that's a mistake.

Just trying to get this all worked out in my mind. ...I am very ignorant regarding events taking place in the tribulation and I do appreciate what has been brought to light.

Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge and that can easily be fixed; refusing to even try to understand what we don't know about scripture is stupid and that can't so easily be fixed. Seems few people try to get anything at all about the Book of Revelation straight because they didn't understand it from the womb and therefore want to believe it doesn't matter; that's another mistake.

To the contrary, Paul tells us that ALL of scripture is given by God for guidance and study (2 Tim 2:15). Revelation twice tells us that specific book is uniquely good (Rev 1:3, 22:7) for everyone to know. Therefore, I don't have the audacity to say that any part of scripture is not worth my study!

I sure don't have everything about end times figured out but, with prayerful study, God has illuminated a lot of things I couldn't see at first and I love it. I commend you for your honest efforts.

.429&H110

06-14-2022, 01:47 PM

Last year the godless communists closed my church. We were barred from meeting even outdoors in our big pole barn. Meanwhile three of us died of old age but nobody died of pneumonia. Half the church never came back, then our pastor died of cancer. The wheels are coming off my church. What to do?

Sell the features and benefits of Revelation?

No, tried that.
Sheeple are sure they are going to heaven, or sure there is no heaven.
What to do?
Carpool.
Make sure everyone who wants a ride, gets a ride to church, doctor, groceries.
A church is a service organization, not a debating society.
As Acts says: "...one accord..."

We are a small group on the roof, the Romans are pounding on the door.
America will go the way of the Romans, and the Body of Christ will live on.
There's gonna be tribulation.
Do a study on tribulation.
It's not what the world does to you, tribulation is internal, your doubts and fears, that you let the world do to you. With faith you have no tribulation. Your body might be uncomfortable, while you stand on the promises, but you will live.
How can they kill you, if you're already dead in Christ?
"In the world, not of it".

dannyd

06-14-2022, 02:48 PM

The United State's is going the way of any other Pagan Nation that's Old Testament KJB.

I like the old testament because it judges nation's, but the new testament makes me nervous because it judges me. :(

.429&H110

06-14-2022, 03:43 PM

Speaking of Romans...
Romans had a military that conquered the world, then they went broke and got invaded.
When paradigms shift there is a sharp sudden break from the expected.

Good Cheer

06-14-2022, 05:34 PM

You guys are into the same conversation as has been ongoing between the better 2/3's and me.

dannyd

06-14-2022, 09:33 PM

Unfortunately the United State's has not conquered anything and is still going the way of the Romans.

Good Cheer

06-20-2022, 07:57 AM

Could America avoid destruction with repentance? Perhaps. Don't think repentance is going to happen for even a small % of our people but it's still something to pray for. With reference to Ruth Graham's comment about Sodom and Gomorrah, a lot of us could get raptured via fire and brimstone.

dannyd

06-20-2022, 11:05 AM

Every Country on Earth as Christians; some of them are eating rat for dinner and having one page of the bible on their person will cost them their life. So No I don't The Lord cares about the United State's just about Christians are here and we are getting fewer everyday.

Good Cheer

06-28-2022, 08:01 AM

Fewer indeed. Not just fewer Christians but fewer involved with spirituality in general.
How many people have a clue as to why our country's capitol city has a 666" tall phallic symbol thrusting up through the diagrammatic representation of female genitalia? Or has a clue as to what "The Apotheosis Of Washington" is meant to convey as regards the Osiris myth or why it is surrounded by 72 stars?

Jesus told us to hold, to occupy in hostile territory.

Pardon, was being called to breakfast and dropped a 0.
That obelisk is 6660" tall. But, in occultic number systems you drop the zero any how.

.429&H110

06-28-2022, 12:32 PM

America has decided 53 million deaths is enough.
Call the bit a person, baby, fetus, or inconvenient tissue, dead is dead.
Some per cent of these deaths checked the box marked "Black".
There is an old Jewish folktale about a nation that killed children, that tale came true.

Between slavery, the war of northern aggression, and eugenics the Democrats have killed more people than Chairman Mao.

Our Savior makes a lot of promises in His Book.
He promises if we repent, renew, redeem, we will be His people, to live forever with Him.
Or else.

We want to mark the date on our calendar, Lord's Return sounds like a busy day.
If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
Meanwhile go rescue your neighborhood church while you still have one.
While you're there teach Genesis, end with "even so, Jesus come quickly".
As Paul said "...all Scripture...".
Maybe you can awake a woke church.

Good Cheer

06-29-2022, 05:58 AM

dannyd

06-29-2022, 09:12 AM

Lets stick to History the United State's will probably never catch up to China, Japan or Russia with the number of people killed.

Also the age of grace is about the individual and not about the nation; that's why when the horn blows all the saved go no matter where they are.

1hole

06-29-2022, 10:04 AM

... when the horn blows all the saved go no matter where they are.

Yep; that "Hey yawl, COME ON UP HERE!" horn will blow someday. If you're a born again believer when that horn toots, up you'll go. And you'll do it prior to the start of the great tribulation no matter if you now believe in a pre-trib rapture or not ... I like that! :)

Alabama358

07-01-2022, 12:55 PM

Who will be the primary world wide evangelical witness team during the Tribulation? God's 144,000 selected, protected and empowered Jews! (Rev 7:1-10)[/QUOTE]

Actually, only 12,000 of the 144,00 are "Jews"

Of the tribe of Juda (Jews) 12,000
Of the tribe of Reuban 12,000
Of the tribe of Gad 12,000
Of the tribe of Aser 12,000
Of the tribe of Nepthalim 12,000
Of the tribe of Manasses 12,000
Of the tribe of Simeon 12,000
Of the tribe of Levi 12,000
Of the tribe of Issachar 12,000
Of the tribe of Zabulon 12,000
Of the tribe of Joseph 12,000
Of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000

This happens after the 6th seal is opened just prior to the Wrath of the LORD being poured out. Right on or about Mid-Tribulation at the time of the Rapture... pre-Wrath post-Tribulation

Revelation 7:3 KJV
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads
So at this time the Wrath has not started

At the ceremony sealing of the 144,000... 12K from each of the 12 Tribes after the 6th seal is opened, Mid-Trib (sun and moon darkened, Stars falling from the sky etc.) A great multitude which no man could number appears at the ceremony. (hint: this is the saved-raptured folks)

Revelation 7:4-9 KJV
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

(Key Word AFTER THIS) If this multitude that appears on the scene clothed in white robes of all nations, kindreds and people are not the bride of Christ who pray tell are they?
And if they were raptured 3-1/2 years prior to this that some would have you believe, why do they just now appear? :Bright idea:

Revelation 7:14 KJV
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So all of these saved folks appearing at this sealing of the 144,000 ceremony just came out of "Great Tribulation" kind of shoots holes in the whole pre-Trib thingy

Alabama358

07-01-2022, 01:33 PM

Misunderstanding End Times and the book of Revelation is not a salvation disqualifier and should not come between brethren.
But it deserves as much enthusiasm and study as every other scripture. Don't be slack
And if you read it as it is written and don't try to do mental gymnastics and Spiritual contortion to make it fit to something that was written by man... It is really not that hard.

Good Cheer

07-01-2022, 08:36 PM

Finding a really good teacher who can demystify Revelation is a treasure.

.429&H110

07-04-2022, 05:28 PM

Ah. Goodcheer!

I was taught in college that the Bible is a Jewish folk tale.
My Bible is an unreadable folk tale to a University professor, so we used an edited ESV for Comp Lit.

Abraham and Issac demonstrated we do not sacrifice our children.
"God provided the sacrifice". Yes indeed He did.
Did the children of Israel or America respect the simple Law " Thou shalt not murder"?

We must teach the whole Bible starting with Genesis.
The first sin is coveting, we want what we cannot have,
then we find out impulsive behavior ends badly.
Our Bible is the only Truth in a post-truth world,
Good News for them who will hear it.
"... all Scripture..."

1hole

07-05-2022, 12:14 PM

Finding a really good teacher who can demystify Revelation is a treasure.

I'm glad that most of Revelation's symbolic "mysteries" are identified in the text. Most of the rest ... well, if our understandings and misunderstandings of some questions were spiritually or eternially critical God would have made it clear in scripture.

I think the questions of there being no more "time" in heaven tend to miss the point of what biblical time means. Time is the ultimate destroyer of all things but time is not a thing and scripture never suggests time will stop and freeze us in one place. However, we can reasonably argue that in God's perfect heaven "time" will stop in that the harmful effects of time won't hammer on man or creation anymore.

I often wonder about some factors of the eternal future but being concerned about eventually getting bored in heaven isn't one of them.

Good Cheer

07-05-2022, 07:10 PM

Thundarstick

07-05-2022, 10:16 PM

I opened this eschatology discussion some time back. I've listened and read 100s of hours of commentary (all by experts,[not you guys] ), and I've discovered they all have one thing in common, EVERY ONE OF THEM. Anyone want to guess what the one statement they ALL make at one time or another is?

Good Cheer

07-06-2022, 08:09 AM

Nope, but I'd love to hear it!

JonB_in_Glencoe

07-06-2022, 09:20 AM

Thundarstick

07-06-2022, 11:25 AM

I Think or I Believe!

Every one of them, on any side, get to a place and say, "I think or I believe", this is what this passage means, this is how A relates to B, etc,etc,etc.

This CLEARLY indicates NONE of them know! They ALL (just like us) THINK, or BELIEVE they know.

I'm a KISS person and when one has to perform all kinds of scriptural acrobatics to arrive at a predetermined conclusion, I'm skeptical. You may be completely ok with acrobatics, but the truth is what you believe or think you know.

I've enjoyed reading the discussion of others beliefs.

1hole

07-06-2022, 11:39 AM

"...but it could be interpreted another way."

Yeah, interpretations do vary but in our present society of constantly offended dummies, simply telling kids to study and work hard now for a better life later is being interpreted as "racist" and "white power". Today's stoopid people can and do misinterpret banal things in stoopid ways. But non-stoopid people have no duty to pretend to accept and respect the obviously stoopid errors of determined idiots. Especially so for scripture.

.429&H110

07-06-2022, 12:48 PM

"Faith comes by hearing..."

Do you believe to have faith or have faith to believe?

Why Revelation?
Agape.

Paul's Greeks had to be taught love, and so do we.
A mother cat loves her kittens by instinct, born that way,
as Rhett said to Scarlett, "A cat is a better mother than you".

Hugh Hefner had an opinion on love, and made it stick, the media loved him.
Hef had a very low opinion of women, he was the hero of eros, and died with a lot of toys.
Now we have a generation obsessed with what women look like.

God is bringing us back to Him because He loves us.
We have to learn what agape means to God.
Our opinions don't much matter.

JonB_in_Glencoe

07-06-2022, 10:01 PM

Yeah, interpretations do vary but in our present society of constantly offended dummies, simply telling kids to study and work hard now for a better life later is being interpreted as "racist" and "white power". Today's stoopid people can and do misinterpret banal things in stoopid ways. But non-stoopid people have no duty to pretend to accept and respect the obviously stoopid errors of determined idiots. Especially so for scripture.

I'm not understanding your point, do you have one?

I was just making a guess at what the common statement is, by most experts.

1hole

07-07-2022, 10:53 AM

My point is, pointing out that there are diverse opinions on everything doesn't mean anything inventive men can devise is automatically right or wrong no matter how popular or unpopular the idea may be.

The mental contortions some people go through to "prove there will be no Rapture" is a popular example of man's bad theology. The truth of the Rapture is not hidden, read John 14:3 and 1 Thes 4:17 and just accept that it means what it says.

Bottom line, God's truth in scripture is true. Paul wrote what he was inspired by God to write and that's not subject to being overruled any by man's popular vote. No matter what some expert men say, the Rapture IS coming and, as a "SURPRISE!" event, it must come pre-Tribulation.

.429&H110

07-07-2022, 02:20 PM

Yes indeed God promised.

First choose Jesus!
Then it is our job to live God's promise.
"to have a ready answer"
"feed my sheep"
"sell your cloak and buy a sword"

Some of us have alarm clocks to wake us up.
Some just snooze their life away.

Only the Holy Spirit saves souls, tiptoes past sleeping hardened hearts
we must be alarm clocks and awake the woke.

Alabama358

07-09-2022, 08:21 PM

Bottom line, God's truth in scripture is true. Paul wrote what he was inspired by God to write and that's not subject to being overruled any by man's popular vote. No matter what some expert men say, the Rapture IS coming and, as a "SURPRISE!" event, it must come pre-Tribulation.

Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing)

1Thessalonians 5: 2-5 KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

So, if we read this as it is written...

A) Folks that believe that this awesome day will not overtake them as a thief (not saying they know the hour or the day, so do not erect that straw man argument) are "children of the light" "and children of the day"

B) Folks that believe this awesome day has to be a complete "SURPRISE" and overtake them as a thief in the night are children "of the night" and children "of the darkness"

If you don't want to take Paul's word for it... what did Jesus have to say about it?

Matthew 24: 32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So the LORD gives a preview of the events that will unfold before the day he returns to collect his elect and clearly is NOT saying this "Could happen at any moment" or "It has to be a Total SURPRISE" John Nelson Darby doctrine.

On the contrary he is saying that "WHEN" you ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
The LORD makes it clear that only the Father knows the day and the hour... However he says that we will know when the rapture is near, Even at the doors. anyone that reads that and says that it has to be pre-trib because it has to be a total surprise is just regurgitating doctrines of men and not the teachings of the LORD.

Matthew 15:9
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1hole

07-09-2022, 09:47 PM

Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing).

You start by implying a fallacy of the inerrancy of the 1611 KJV but you should know that God did not give us a Bible written in King James' English. (In fact, English wasn't even a language when the spirit led authors put their pens to scrolls.)

Languages change over time. A lot of KJV words no longer mean what they once meant. Thing is, scripture didn't start with King James' translation edict and scripture didn't get frozen in time in 1611.

The book you call the KJV has had at least three major revisions and many small ones over the years but it's never been fully corrected.

In reality, everyone who knows another language is aware that ALL translations between any two languages are and MUST be paraphrased for at least two reasons. First, there are often no direct matching words to translate. Second, each language has unique grammar and figures of speech that often make any so-called "word for word" translation impossible to comprehend.

Darby? Paul didn't know Darby; neither do you. No one inserted the words of the Rapture (or any other orthodox doctrines) into the scriptures so Darby could eventually use it to confuse people who feel good about being confused.

.429&H110

07-10-2022, 11:37 AM

I want to apologize for thread hijack.
I get exercised on the subject, this afternoon will be spent on it.

A Bible study has to tiptoe past the rabbit holes and distractions.

I was taught the Bible is a mistranslated collection of Jewish folk tales.
But. I believe the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit using called out men and women
mostly in Koine Greek as an Owner's Manual. Both ideas cannot be correct.
If you do not trust the translation, check out the Greek interlinear.

JonB_in_Glencoe

07-10-2022, 03:24 PM

from Post #101, 06-04-2022, 12:10 PM

First, God's end times plans are his and that doesn't depend on us believing anything. Those poor folk who are not spiritually "born again" at the Rapture are, by definition, not the Bride of Christ and nothing else matters. There is nothing in scripture to support the odd idea that "some born again folk will go this way and some will go that way" at the pre-trib Rapture, depending on what they believe.

Bottom line, Jesus says his followers will be raised in perfection but non-believers clearly will not and, from that, we can deduce that no believers will ever be left behind. (Matt 7:27 and on) ???

Who will be the primary world wide evangelical witness team during the Tribulation? God's 144,000 selected, protected and empowered Jews! (Rev 7:1-10)

I'm seeing nothing in Jesus' words, in Matt 7:21 thru 7:28 about being raised. If fact, what I do see, is what I see that follows throughout the entire bible, that we (the believers) will all go through tribulations and He (Jesus) will comfort us. Just like Shadrach Meshach and Abednego, Jesus comforted their tribulation in the furnace. I've read no where in the bible that would be any different in the Great Tribulation.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

1hole

07-10-2022, 03:45 PM

I want to apologize for thread hijack.

No apology is needed. After some 136 posts the original subject has been beaten to death so a bit of drift is acceptable.

A Bible study has to tiptoe past the rabbit holes and distractions.

I disagree. Tiptoeing around Biblical disagreements to avoid disagreement is a large part of what has brought us to this present state of determined confusion. Truth demands we courteously state what we we believe and WHY! Only in honest give and take can we resolve error; tiptoeing just doesn't get it.

I was taught the Bible is a mistranslated collection of Jewish folk tales.

A lot of us have been told a lot of spiritual nonsense by a lot of spiritually ignorant bible "experts". I've learned to ignore them.

But. I believe the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit using called out men and women mostly in Koine Greek as an Owner's Manual.

Don't know of any Spirit led female scripture writers but if you add a bit of old-time Hebrew and Aramaic you'll have them all.[/quote]

If you do not trust the translation, check out the Greek interlinear.

Right.

A lot of people buy "side-by-side" Bible versions so they can see in one volume how 3 or 4 translation teams see things. Perhaps the most critical thing I learned in word studies is that the words change in versions but the message from any orthodox Bible remains true to the oldest texts we have. IN fact, except so-called "bibles" from sects like Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Adventists and Christian Science, I believe any modern translation (or, dare I say it, a paraphrase) is very good. So ... I eventually quite chasing around after individual word choices in the various translation versions and started following the actual message that is given.

.429&H110

07-10-2022, 06:21 PM

1Corinthians 13:12

"For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know
even as I am known."

Amen

.429&H110

07-10-2022, 07:25 PM

Oh and as far as women and church, I can speculate and assume...I believe Priscilla and Aquila over in Acts 18 helped Apollos, Prisca sat there in church, wrote down Apollos' sermons, edited them with the Holy Spirit as Paul wrote Hebrews. First half of Hebrews was written by Priscilla, a woman. Maybe. Book of Luke has the Nativity. Luke wasn't there. Our Lord's mother Mary was there, and again, elderly Mary, Luke and the Holy Spirit turned out Mary's part of Luke. Maybe.

Paul got in trouble with the Greek housewives, and America has plenty of that sort that would hijack a church into a party, and so Paul's warning about women teaching still holds true.

1hole

07-10-2022, 09:59 PM

By no means do I say that women were not well used by God throughout the Bible ages and it's within the range of possibility some parts of scripture may well have been penned by women but, if so, it was done very quietly. ("Might" and "maybe" don't count.)

I like to use Deborah, the only lady judge we know of, who served God the same as other judges of her time and saved Canaan from an invasion to illustrate the difference between how God sees women vs. how ancient men saw women. (She's in Judges 4 & 5.)

1hole

07-10-2022, 10:14 PM

from Post #101, 06-04-2022, 12:10 PM --- I'm seeing nothing in Jesus' words, in Matt 7:21 thru 7:28 about being raised.

You're right, my bad. I was typing from a list that included passages on another topic and accidently included that one.

... what I do see, is what I see that follows throughout the entire bible, that we (the believers) will all go through tribulations ......

I've read no where in the bible that would be any different in the Great Tribulation.

Yeah, you really have but it didn't jump off the page.

You first need to understand that the Great Tribulation period will be much worse than any other and it does not apply to the saints of the Church Age. Only those who were left behind at the Rapture and then come to faith during the Tribulation will experience that. A lot of what Jesus warned about those days refers to his brothers, the Jews, whom He knew would be stubborn to the end.

The furious "wrath of God" has not yet been seen on earth BUT Christians of this age are specifically promised that we will not experience the coming seven years of Tribulation horrors. My faith trusts that promise. (1 Thes 5:9) And I find it comforting; so should you! (1 Thes 4:17-18)

Unlike Noah's little family riding on his boat and Daniel's three unique friends in the fire, MANY Tribulation believers will indeed miserably die along with most of the rest of humanity. And many of those believers will be beheaded for their testimony to Jesus. (Rev 6:9-11)

But those wrath torn believers won't be us. We will have already been "caught up" (raptured) to heaven and be with Jesus. (In fact, getting us outta here before the wrath is poured out seems to be the primary purpose of the Rapture!) :)

Alabama358

07-11-2022, 01:32 PM

If you do not trust the translation, check out the Greek interlinear.

If you believe that GOD is the creator of all. That he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. that even the hairs on your head are numbered.
Is it that hard to believe that he would make available, to the greatest christian nation in the history of mankind his infallible Holy Spirit inspired Word... in their own language? It appears to me that this should take a lot less faith than many other things.

That somehow our nation which evangelizes to the entire world does not have a trusted translation of God's holy word in our language... that we need to somehow go back to Greek (which almost all of the saved folks of this great nation do not speak) to understand scripture? Next time someone draws the "you have to go back to the Greek" sword... to show you their understanding of a scripture or doctrine. Just ask them if they speak Greek Fluently.

Well... it is HOGWASH!
This is the ploy that many folks use when doing mental gymnastics and spiritual contortions (that I spoke of in an earlier post) to try to make teachings and doctrines of man (or their beliefs) fit scripture.
"don't believe what the scriptures says...it is a flawed translation or you have to go back to the Greek for the correct definition of this word or that word" Blah Blah Blah

It is like when a liberal is trying win an argument for the wrong side of the facts and tells you... "Don't believe the facts, let me summarize and paraphrase the information so you can understand it":roll:

Studying Greek and Hebrew and other languages is great, interesting and edifying but not necessary for understanding Gods word... Lean on the Holy Spirit for understanding.

John 14:26 KJV
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1hole

07-11-2022, 05:24 PM

.... our nation which evangelizes to the entire world does not have a trusted translation of God's holy word in our language... that we need to somehow go back to Greek (which almost all of the saved folks of this great nation do not speak) to understand scripture?

Ahhh ... I think you're barking up a wrong tree with that one for at least two reasons.

First, people are people and they do many things for many reasons. I doubt anything ever written (in any language) and any point in time could avoid conflicts of interpretation.

Second, the suggestion for using Greek to study the Bible was aimed at those who want to get very serious about their understandings, it was NOT a general suggestion for everyone.

Fact is, the translation disagreements we have are actually few and really don't affect anything of great theological importance.

Bottom line, in spite of a few loud howls, Christians agree with all "versions" pretty well. Seems to me that those few who howl loudest know the least about it.

Anyone who wants to learn what God wants us to know, should get a mainstream translation and study it - no background of Greek or Latin or Aramaic or Elizabethan English or Ebonics or whatever else is required.

Good Cheer

07-13-2022, 08:09 AM

1hole

07-13-2022, 12:50 PM

Anyone who studies will catch on and know better than to agree with the preposterous notion that translation differences "really don't affect anything of great theological importance".

Cheer, that's pretty strong but you cite no errounious instance to validate your post. (Note that I said "orthodox" translation differences don't make much difference to the primary message of the Bible.)

All Bible "translations" are "versions", none are word-for-word, especially including the beloved KJV. All are loaded with trivial differences in word choices and grammar. Fact is, none of the translators has ever had free access to all of the achient scraps of text scattered over the world and even the oldest scraps we have are man made copies that have differences so I must conclude that it's God's message that counts, not the English words. Who today can rightly say which text fragments have or have not been made into a straight English Bible by the word and grammar choices of different translation teams?

All Bible translations are versions (paraphrases actually) of a message from one language into another. In fact,I defy you to point to a specific orthodox Bible version's translation difference that harms any critically important Christian doctrines such as those in John 3:16 or Romans 8:28-30 or Eph 2:8-9, etc.

I'll cite two examples of bad KJV word choices include Elizabethan royal "thees" and "thous" and "Holy Ghost". There were no such royal pronouns in the old languages so it can't dogmatically be said they are right because they're wrong but I say it doesn't matter; do you challenge that?

A "ghost" is the disembodied life force of a physical deadman. Of the Godhead, only Jesus ever had/has a physical body that was once dead but he's no ghost. Therefore, "Holy Ghost" is a very bad English translation of "Holy Spirit". However, no one is going to hell for calling Him a Holy Ghost because that's not the Biblical message. Thus, the precise translation error is again a real but trivial difference, not a diabolical evil, so it doesn't matter.

Most Christians will be well served if they pick a conservative Bible version that isn't a cult's re-written handbook and is easy for them to read and get into it. (Those folk who want to get their feet wet in alternate word choices should first try an Amplified Bible. Most people will never need another version. IMHO. :))

Alabama358

07-13-2022, 01:54 PM

You start by implying a fallacy of the inerrancy of the 1611 KJV but you should know that God did not give us a Bible written in King James' English. (In fact, English wasn't even a language when the spirit led authors put their pens to scrolls.) If you think that the Holy Spirit ie. GOD was not involved in the translation process... well that is just foolish scoffing.

Languages change over time. A lot of KJV words no longer mean what they once meant. Thing is, scripture didn't start with King James' translation edict and scripture didn't get frozen in time in 1611. Which words no longer mean what they once meant or at least list which words relative to this topic?

The book you call the KJV has had at least three major revisions and many small ones over the years but it's never been fully corrected.
Please list any major or minor revision relative to this topic
In reality, everyone who knows another language is aware that ALL translations between any two languages are and MUST be paraphrased for at least two reasons. First, there are often no direct matching words to translate. Second, each language has unique grammar and figures of speech that often make any so-called "word for word" translation impossible to comprehend. HOGWASH!!! How many languages are spoken in your household? My 6 year old son speaks 3

Darby? Paul didn't know Darby; neither do you. No one inserted the words of the Rapture (or any other orthodox doctrines) into the scriptures so Darby could eventually use it to confuse people who feel good about being confused.

Very interesting and telling that instead of reconciling your belief that the catching up/rapture has to be a total "SURPRISE" as opposed to Paul's teaching that for the saved "children of the light" it will not come upon them as a thief (NOT a total SURPRISE"),

You chose to throw shade on the accuracy of the Bible and state that there has been 3 major and many minor amendments. (however you do not detail any of these major or minor amendments and how they relate to Paul's teaching regarding children of the light vs children of the darkness... my guess is because they have NO relevance or you have no idea and are just regurgitating someone else's thoughts)

Furthermore you do not list which translation would rebuke the KJV of Paul's teaching.

All that said... I will re post the original and give you another shot at reconciling your total SURPRISE doctrine vs Paul's teaching on this matter.

Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing)

1Thessalonians 5: 2-5 KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

So, if we read this as it is written...

A) Folks that believe that this awesome day will not overtake them as a thief (not saying they know the hour or the day, so do not erect that straw man argument) are "children of the light" "and children of the day"

B) Folks that believe this awesome day has to be a complete "SURPRISE" and overtake them as a thief in the night are children "of the night" and children "of the darkness"

If you don't want to take Paul's word for it... what did Jesus have to say about it?

Matthew 24: 32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So the LORD gives a preview of the events that will unfold before the day he returns to collect his elect and clearly is NOT saying this "Could happen at any moment" or "It has to be a Total SURPRISE" John Nelson Darby doctrine.

On the contrary he is saying that "WHEN" you ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
The LORD makes it clear that only the Father knows the day and the hour... However he says that we will know when the rapture is near, Even at the doors. anyone that reads that and says that it has to be pre-trib because it has to be a total surprise is just regurgitating doctrines of men and not the teachings of the LORD.

So the main question is...
1) Are folks that believe in the Pre-Trib doctrine (Darbyites and the like) the "children of the night/darkness"?

If your answer is no, then why are you so wrapped up in this "Must be a Total SURPRISE, thief in the night" thing

Personally I think the Bride of Christ are the Children of the light/day and although they will not know the day or the hour we will know when it is near and even at the door as Christ taught in Matthew 24:33 (Post-Trib Pre-Wrath)

Good Cheer

07-15-2022, 08:36 PM

To which I would want to restate or to ask of many, is this is the fig tree generation?
Is He coming to receive us after the son of perdition is revealed?
Are you ready for that?
The bright spot may be that with our steadily decreasing longevity since the time of Noah perhaps we won't be faced with making the decisions.

1hole

07-16-2022, 10:00 PM

Very interesting and telling that instead of reconciling your belief that the catching up/rapture has to be a total "SURPRISE" as opposed to Paul's teaching that for the saved "children of the light" it will not come upon them as a thief (NOT a total SURPRISE"),

You react far too indignitely to words never said. The Rapture will only be a "total SURPRISE" to unbelievers AND to believers who are poorly taught about end times.

You chose to throw shade on the accuracy of the Bible and state that there has been 3 major and many minor amendments.

"Shade accuracy of the Bible"? No, certainly not the way you mean it anyway. I'm saying as clearly as I can that most Bible versions are equal to or better than the KJV but the minor differences between our main line versions are too small for believers to make such a fuss about.

...(however you do not detail any of these major or minor amendments and how they relate to Paul's teaching regarding children of the light vs children of the darkness...

You're using snark instead of honesty; I don't do snark.

...my guess is because they have NO relevance or you have no idea and are just regurgitating someone else's thoughts)...

You're obviously hung up on Mr. Darby; you may need to get over that.

I've previously stated that I know who Darby was but I've no personal knowledge of his writing and MY "guess" is that you haven't read him either. If you haven't, perhaps it's YOU who is simply regurgitating other folk's negative thoughts on the man.

Furthermore you do not list which translation would rebuke the KJV of Paul's teaching.

"Rebuke" Paul? Goodness, that's your own projection, not mine. I think I did suggest some versions that are good - have you?

... I will re post the original and give you another shot at reconciling your total SURPRISE doctrine vs Paul's teaching on this matter.

I hope you understand how grateful I am for that permission.

Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing)

Oh, you're "quoting"? I wonder ... which of the ancient writer's inspired manuscripts are you quoting from? Or are you just paraphrasing the English KJV as if that version is exactly what came from the lips of God to Paul, et al?? (I wonder, have you ever checked on what sources other than the Roman Catholics' (Latin) Vulgate the KJV translators worked from?)

Finally, congratulations on your son. You can rightly be proud of a six year old boy in command of three languages, that's super. I have a smart six year old great grandson who knows a few Spanish words. But, to be honest, I've never met any six year old American kid who is truly fluent even in his native English, never mind English plus two other languages. That's amazing ... if it's true.

Good Cheer

07-17-2022, 06:07 AM

I've come to understand that this is indeed the fig tree generation and that would make the arrival of the fake christ, the imposter, immanent as in the next few decades. Some who are alive today will go through that and have yet to prepare themselves. That should be our focus.

Alabama358

07-17-2022, 01:05 PM

You react far too indignitely to words never said. The Rapture will only be a "total SURPRISE" to unbelievers AND to believers who are poorly taught about end times.

"Shade accuracy of the Bible"? No, certainly not the way you mean it anyway. I'm saying as clearly as I can that most Bible versions are equal to or better than the KJV but the minor differences between our main line versions are too small for believers to make such a fuss about.

You're using snark instead of honesty; I don't do snark.

You're obviously hung up on Mr. Darby; you may need to get over that.

I've previously stated that I know who Darby was but I've no personal knowledge of his writing and MY "guess" is that you haven't read him either. If you haven't, perhaps it's YOU who is simply regurgitating other folk's negative thoughts on the man.

"Rebuke" Paul? Goodness, that's your own projection, not mine. I think I did suggest some versions that are good - have you?

I hope you understand how grateful I am for that permission.

Oh, you're "quoting"? I wonder ... which of the ancient writer's inspired manuscripts are you quoting from? Or are you just paraphrasing the English KJV as if that version is exactly what came from the lips of God to Paul, et al?? (I wonder, have you ever checked on what sources other than the Roman Catholics' (Latin) Vulgate the KJV translators worked from?)

Finally, congratulations on your son. You can rightly be proud of a six year old boy in command of three languages, that's super. I have a smart six year old great grandson who knows a few Spanish words. But, to be honest, I've never met any six year old American kid who is truly fluent even in his native English, never mind English plus two other languages. That's amazing ... if it's true.

Since you didn't and will not clearly state your position on the "total surprise Rapture either for believers or poorly taught" (backed up by chapter and verse of any bible version) I will have to mark you down as one of the children of the darkness/night that Paul was teaching.
He taught this for a reason.

I say this not as an insult or to change your mind but as a personal understanding so that I know how to (or why not to) respond to you in the future.

I personally think you are right on many subjects but are just in the dark on this one.

Alabama358

07-17-2022, 01:16 PM

Finally, congratulations on your son. You can rightly be proud of a six year old boy in command of three languages, that's super. I have a smart six year old great grandson who knows a few Spanish words. But, to be honest, I've never met any six year old American kid who is truly fluent even in his native English, never mind English plus two other languages. That's amazing ... if it's true.

Thanks,
He is a pretty special 6 year old young Lad. At age 5 he had completely memorized the periodic table and could state the proton makeup of all 118 elements
He also reads the KJV bible every night with his mommy and daddy before goes to bed
All Glory to his Father and not his daddy.

Alabama358

07-17-2022, 01:20 PM

.429&H110

07-17-2022, 04:34 PM

At church today we learned Revelation 3.

I have as much Revelation as I need.

Heard some scoffing at Koine... no I do not speak Greek, never will, but I can learn to read it with a vocabulary of a few thousand words. Meanwhile I am learning Spanish by immersion with no intention of ever reading Spanish.
Our language limits us.

Over at 1st Corinthians 13:1 "...tinkling cymbal."

What Paul wrote in the Interlinear is "...alalala".
alalala is the Greek war cry, and also a Greek personification of minor war god.
Books have been written about Paul's personifications.

That is how Paul got their attention.
No, the meaning does not change.

Doulos does indeed change meaning, for us, but not to Paul.
Are you a slave of God, or a servant?

1hole

07-18-2022, 10:59 AM

Since you didn't and will not clearly state your position on the "total surprise Rapture either for believers or poorly taught"

Yes, I have. You just don't understand it.

(backed up by chapter and verse of any bible version) I will have to mark you down as one of the children of the darkness/night that Paul was teaching. He taught this for a reason.

But you haven't given us a single word about what you believe Paul's point was. ???

I say this not as an insult or to change your mind ...

Trust me, I'll never take anything you say as an insult no matter how hard you may try.

... but as a personal understanding so that I know how to (or why not to) respond to you in the future.

Well, so far you've only said how wrong I am about Paul's writing but without anything but ad hominem snippets in support of your own claim. I can't help you with that but I can help you deal with me; just put me on your ignore list! That may break my heart at first but I'm tuff and, with God's help, I'm sure I'll eventually get over it! ;)

I personally think you are right on many subjects ...

That's quite nice of you to say but you're sorta new here and I really don't think you know diddly about what I believe so it rings hollow.

... you are just in the dark on this one.

I agree that one of us is "just in the dark on this one."

Thing is, Paul's letters or my web posts, reading comprehension matters; maybe your son could help? Because, no offense intended, I personally believe you need to reread a lot of Paul's letters to better grasp the totality of what he penned about - at least - the Rapture. :)

Oh, about starting new threads, we don't do that by consensus . Anyone, including you, is welcome to start a new thread at anytime.

Enough.

Alabama358

07-18-2022, 01:32 PM

Yes, I have. You just don't understand it.

But you haven't given us a single word about what you believe Paul's point was. ???

Trust me, I'll never take anything you say as an insult no matter how hard you may try.

Well, so far you've only said how wrong I am about Paul's writing but without anything but ad hominem snippets in support of your own claim. I can't help you with that but I can help you deal with me; just put me on your ignore list! That may break my heart at first but I'm tuff and, with God's help, I'm sure I'll eventually get over it! ;)

That's quite nice of you to say but you're sorta new here and I really don't think you know diddly about what I believe so it rings hollow.

I agree that one of us is "just in the dark on this one."

Thing is, Paul's letters or my web posts, reading comprehension matters; maybe your son could help? Because, no offense intended, I personally believe you need to reread a lot of Paul's letters to better grasp the totality of what he penned about - at least - the Rapture. :)

Oh, about starting new threads, we don't do that by consensus . Anyone, including you, is welcome to start a new thread at anytime.

Enough.

Yup...Confirmed child of the dark

Actually, You kind of sound like a butthurt liberal that does not have the facts to work with so you just make a lot of distracting noise.

good day Sir

1hole

07-19-2022, 10:35 AM

Yup...Confirmed child of the dark

Actually, You kind of sound like a butthurt liberal that does not have the facts to work with so you just make a lot of distracting noise.

good day Sir

By the grace of God, all of my days are good.

As previously stated, you don't know me. Therefore, your rude judgement of me is based on total ignorance and doesn't matter. :)

JonB_in_Glencoe

07-19-2022, 01:40 PM

Oh my, this thread has turned dark.
I will pray to be raptured out of this thread.

.429&H110

07-19-2022, 03:50 PM

Sorry about all the thread hijack
My pressing problem is how to visit the care homes.
It's a long walk.
Doctors tell us to come back next week, cancel without calling.
Nobody answers any phone, anymore.
You cannot call into the Banner South hospital building,
if you did, they won't answer or return calls.

My question is:
What does the new evangelism look like?
The sheep believe in Heaven, cancel all else.
Tell them about Noah, they laugh.
Tell them about Jesus, they walk away.
Tell them about Eve coveting, they just stare.

I would like to see the Second Coming, I am content in the Promises.
Meanwhile there is a Great Commission to do.
"God said it, that settles it".

Thundarstick

07-19-2022, 10:12 PM

1hole

07-20-2022, 10:41 AM

We should all be concerned that we may LEAD more people to the savior, than we will DIRECT to the savior.

Very true Thundar.

Our well meaning "fire and brimstone" brothers often try to scare the lost out of hell but I don't believe we can scare many people about a hell they don't believe in. It has accurately been said that the wavering lost really don't care how much we know, they first want to know how much we care (about them). I believe we can better attract lost people to Jesus' beautiful heaven with compassion than with shouted alternative descriptions of Satan's horrible hell.

Good Cheer

07-22-2022, 08:25 AM

The financial system to control the people of the entire world is being plugged in now in real time so if you're getting flown out of here it's going to have to happen pretty soon.

Good Cheer

07-31-2022, 01:32 PM

I'm old enough to need a blueprint.
Luke 21 spells out pretty well what we're supposed to do whether it's a pretrib rapture or not.

https://i.imgur.com/Aj2jAMT.jpg

Alabama358

08-02-2022, 04:04 PM

I'm old enough to need a blueprint.
Luke 21 spells out pretty well what we're supposed to do whether it's a pretrib rapture or not.

https://i.imgur.com/Aj2jAMT.jpg

Blueprint indeed!
I enjoy Matthew 24 where the disciples came to Christ and actually ask him for a detailed blueprint of Jesus's return (The Rapture) and the end of this world.

I took the liberty of bolding some of the important verses of the Lord's details of his return.

Verse 15 The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet has to happen before the Lords return. (his words not mine) Anyone that has studied that knows that it happens at the mid point of the 7 year period.
Verse 21 Great Tribulation not to be confused with God's wrath
verse 22 References the Elect... Saved folks that have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ
Verse 29 Immediately After the Tribulation of those days (roughly 31/2 years into Daniel's 70th week or 7 years) The Sun and Moon are darkened and the stars fall from the sky.

Huge key point here. The Abomination of Desolation and Sun and Moon darkened, Stars falling from the sky are the events that have to happen (according to Jesus) before his return.
No secret Rapture, Christ makes a point in verse #23 and verse #26 not to believe the secret Rapture false doctrine.

Matthew 24:1-51 KJV

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Good Cheer

08-02-2022, 08:33 PM

Well, the fig tree is alive and becoming Sodom and Egypt.
Like Johnny Cash sang, it's going by the book.

1hole

08-11-2022, 08:52 PM

[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]No secret Rapture, Christ makes a point in verse #23 and verse #26 not to believe the secret Rapture false doctrine.

I'm puzzled: Paul's description of the sudden - "twinkling of an eye" - Rapture of Jesus' blood bought Bride of Christ/church is clearly prophesied (1 Cor 15:52). It is obviously coming so why do you think our Rapture up to the present heaven during the Tribulation is supposed to be a "secret" from the church?

Milky Duck

08-11-2022, 09:00 PM

And, from 2nd Thessalonians we know it happens after the son of perdition comes out of the closet.
I've come to think that Christ's return happens after the two dead witnesses stand up in the city. That's going to be a big surprise and so will be
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God as stated in 1st Thessalonians.
You and I have drawn different conclusion. So be it.

the trump of God...or the trumpet of God?????? in these modern times the difference is huge.....

ioon44

08-12-2022, 08:44 AM

Strong's G4536 - salpigx
σάλπιγξ sálpinx, sal'-pinx; perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet:—trump(-et).

Alabama358

08-23-2022, 09:14 PM

I'm puzzled: Paul's description of the sudden - "twinkling of an eye" - Rapture of Jesus' blood bought Bride of Christ/church is clearly prophesied (1 Cor 15:52). It is obviously coming so why do you think our Rapture up to the present heaven during the Tribulation is supposed to be a "secret" from the church?

Well if your lucky enough to make it to the end you won't be "Puzzled" on that day.

I am not sure if there is a coherent question in there or if you are just doing your typical straw-man argument thingy.

You made a nice word salad...quoted a scripture and then ask why I thought the rapture was supposed to be a secret from the church. HUH???

Didn't say that... what I did say is that the idea of a secret rapture is a false doctrine

BTW... Do you think that the scripture that you quoted 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the same event Christ describes in Matthew 24: 1-51???

Also, Do you think that the apostles (less Judas Iscariot) are part of the Church, the Bride?

Very Curious to see if you can or will answer those two questions.

1hole

08-24-2022, 09:25 AM

=Alabama358;5447579]Well if your lucky enough to make it to the end you won't be "Puzzled" on that day.

I'll be wherever Jesus is and "luck" will have nothing to do with it! You're the one I'm puzzled by, not the scriptures! ;)

[quote]...quoted a scripture and then ask why I thought the rapture was supposed to be a secret from the church. HUH??? ... Didn't say that... what I did say is that the idea of a secret rapture is a false doctrine

Well, it was you alone who put "Rapture" and "secret" together. I agree that the Rapture is no secret from anyone, it's clearly written in every copy of the Bible so it's only a "secret" from people who don't believe scripture. But I've never heard anyone but you call the Rapture a secret so I'm still puzzled about where that idea came from. ???

[quote]BTW... Do you think that the scripture that you quoted 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the same event Christ describes in Matthew 24: 1-51???

No, they are clearly not the same event.

Also, Do you think that the apostles (less Judas Iscariot) are part of the Church, the Bride?

They certainly are. The Church Age/Bride of Christ consists of those uniquely Spirit indwelt believers between Pentecost and the Rapture. The Lord's disciples were present when the Church Age started and they will still be there when eternity is finished... excepting Judas of course. But, like a lot of other pretenders through the interim, Judas never was a believer.

Very Curious to see if you can or will answer those two questions.

Now you know!

(And now you have another current new's media buzz "word salad" but don't let it "circle back" and hit you in the butt again! ;)

Good Cheer

08-24-2022, 01:11 PM

This was so much fun listening to this morning while on a tollway through the wretched hive of corruption and villainy (had to drop people off at O'Hare) that I'm posting a link here for mutual enjoyment.
https://www.trunews.com/stream/rapture-vs-second-coming-does-jesus-christ-return-once-or-twice

Good Cheer

08-24-2022, 01:13 PM

Blueprint indeed!
I enjoy Matthew 24 where the disciples came to Christ and actually ask him for a detailed blueprint of Jesus's return (The Rapture) and the end of this world.

I took the liberty of bolding some of the important verses of the Lord's details of his return.

Verse 15 The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet has to happen before the Lords return. (his words not mine) Anyone that has studied that knows that it happens at the mid point of the 7 year period.
Verse 21 Great Tribulation not to be confused with God's wrath
verse 22 References the Elect... Saved folks that have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ
Verse 29 Immediately After the Tribulation of those days (roughly 31/2 years into Daniel's 70th week or 7 years) The Sun and Moon are darkened and the stars fall from the sky.

Huge key point here. The Abomination of Desolation and Sun and Moon darkened, Stars falling from the sky are the events that have to happen (according to Jesus) before his return.
No secret Rapture, Christ makes a point in verse #23 and verse #26 not to believe the secret Rapture false doctrine.

Matthew 24:1-51 KJV

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Question for anyone and everyone: Do you think #32 (fig tree) is 1948?

Alabama358

08-24-2022, 03:09 PM

[QUOTE]

No, they are clearly not the same event.

They certainly are. The Church Age/Bride of Christ consists of those uniquely Spirit indwelt believers between Pentecost and the Rapture. The Lord's disciples were present when the Church Age started and they will still be there when eternity is finished...

;)

So just to be clear you think?.... Matthew 24:1-51 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 "Clearly not the same event"

Ok, so let us try to reconcile this...

The Church Age/Bride of Christ went to him and ask, tell us the details of your return...

Matthew24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately*, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So Jesus gives them a detailed step by step - event by event list of things that have to happen before he returns to collect his Elect, Church Age Saints, Bride, Born again Folk (Somewhere about the middle of the 7 year period according to Christ reference to after we see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet)

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other*.

So we are to believe that the Bride of Christ... The Church Age Saints sat down with the Lord himself and said tell us the details of your return...
and Jesus gives them a detailed list of signs and events (Matthew 24:1-52) that would happen before he would be back to collect his saints from the four winds...
But forgot to mention to his saints that all that he just explained really doesn't apply to them because he will be back (pre-Trib) 3 1/2 years earlier to rapture them
Can you reconcile this???

Also funny thing is that in

1 Corinthians 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If 1 Corinthians 15:52 happens 3 1/2 years earlier and is a completely different event and states "the last Trump" it seems to contradict Christ's version of events that happens when he returns and will "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet"

Unless of course they are the same event. (Spoiler alert... they are the same event)

Alabama358

08-24-2022, 03:48 PM

Question for anyone and everyone: Do you think #32 (fig tree) is 1948?

The Hebrews have been punished throughout history when they have fallen away and turned to disobedience and idol worship.

In kind, GOD has restored and rewarded them when they repented and turned back to him.

In 1948 they taught (and still do) that Jesus Christ is a false Prophet, a fraud and not the Son of GOD

I am not sure that it was GOD rewarding them for their absolute and total wicked rebellion by restoring them to the promise land.

Jesus said of the Pharisees

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So if the events in 1948 was of GOD... I don't think it was in the way of him rewarding their wickedness.

Good Cheer

08-26-2022, 10:00 PM

The good figs and the bad figs are still in existence so I guess I've never thought of it as being a matter of them coming back into the land as a reward. Indeed in the last times the people themselves turn Jerusalem into Sodom and Egypt, a process well advanced even now.

1hole

08-27-2022, 09:59 PM

Good Cheer

08-28-2022, 06:23 AM

Good grief.

Rizzo

08-28-2022, 01:01 PM

Alabama358

08-28-2022, 05:01 PM

I just re-read Luke 21.

Jesus tells many predictions to his disciples and also says:

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Generation definition: the entire body of individuals born and living at about the same time.

Hmmmm,....That generation is long gone and those predictions of Jesus have not occurred.

I hope you didn't pay for that definition of Generation, because if you did you need to get your money refunded. :bigsmyl2:
Just curious, Where did you get that definition as it pertains to verse 32? Do you have any scripture tied to it

What Christ was saying is "this generation shall not pass away" He is referencing the generation that sees all of the signs that he just listed... ie. the abomination of desolation, the Sun and Moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky etc.
Not the saints he was preaching to but the future saints that will see the signs that he just prophesied about.

Alabama358

08-28-2022, 07:14 PM

Paul said Christians are to study the Bible so they can rightly "divide the word of truth". Part of that right division is to grasp which scripture applies to where in history and that's rarely understood in reference to the Rapture and the second coming of the Lord. A very weak argument that folks pushing a false doctrine use when they have no solid scripture to back up their position.

First, the Church age - i.e., the age of salvation by grace through faith includes a special indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a way that did not previously exist. The Church age had a beginning and it will have an end.

The Holy Spirit indwelt, salvation by grace Church age began at the first Pentecost after Jesus' ascension. It will end when all Spirit indwelt believers are caught up and taken to heaven. Then Satan's evils are basically freed for the first half of the seven years of earthly Tribulation. So you are saying that Satan's evils are only freed for the first half of the 7 years, so where is he for the 2nd half? Book, Chapter and verse please?

Thus, the Rapture is not the second coming of the Lord! At the Rapture Jesus will only come down far enough to call us up to meet Him in the air. Then he'll then take us - the "Church, his blood bought Bride - back to his father's house for at least seven years of celebration and a spiritual marriage to our Lord. He (and we) will return to earth on white horses at the end of the Tribulation and before the establishment of his Millennial Kingdom on earth. Meaning the Rapture will be pretrib. DO you just make this stuff up? Where in the Bible does it specifically say!!we are taken up for AT LEAST A SEVEN YEAR CELEBRATION. HILARIOUS!! Book, Chapter and verse please?

God has progressively expanded the rules of life several times. Note that Adam would have had no idea of what "the Law of Moses" might mean, that came much later. If we try to jam multiple unrelated Bible events together as if they are a single event we will not only confuse ourselves we will immediately create weird contradictions that leaves much scripture hanging in the air.

Rightly understood, every Christian should know Jesus came to earth during the age of the Law and he never said a word to anyone contrary to the Law. Jesus was a Jew who lived, worked, died, was buried and arose under the Jewish Law. His "signs of the times" words about his return to earth only apply to the people who remain after the Church age is over. Lived under the Law??? He created the Law and fulfilled the Law. Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
His "signs of the times" words about his return to earth only apply to the people who remain after the Church age is over Book, Chapter and verse please?
The Rapture will be a surprise, there will be no warning. Fig tree signs only apply to those who come to faith after the Rapture, but before the Tribulation and His very distinct second coming to earth. Book, Chapter and verse please?

If the Rapture were to come post trib it would not be a surprise because anyone paying attention to the fig tree's "signs of the times" could easily know when the Lord plans to return to earth (with his bride) because we're told he will come to stay seven years after the antichrist signs a lying "peace treaty" with Israel. (It's all in the Book! :)) As Paul said, it will be a surprise to the children of the darkness but not to the children of the light.
1 Thessalonians 5: 4-5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Yup, all in the Book

I say, "Come quickly Lord Jesus!"

All that wisdom with not a single scripture.
Lets try it again -

1 You say the saints will be rapture pretrib before the 7 years (no scripture stated to back up this position)

2 Christ says he will be back to collect his saints from the 4 winds at the half way point of the 7 years
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

3 Christ returns on a white horse with his saints to set up his 1000 year rule

So you think there will be 3 times the Lord comes?
1- Pre-trib,
2- Mid-trib(Christ Prophesy in Matthew 24:15)
3- 2nd Coming, end of 7 year period when Christ returns on a white horse with his saints to set up his kingdom

Also... will your pretrib rapture happen with all of the remarkable Signs as Christ describes his mid-trib return to collect his saints? Sun and Moon darkened, stars falling from the sky, lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; etc

Rizzo

08-28-2022, 09:29 PM

Alabama358;5449902 I hope you didn't pay for that definition of Generation, because if you did you need to get your money refunded. :bigsmyl2:
Just curious, Where did you get that definition as it pertains to verse 32? Do you have any scripture tied to it.

I got it from the internet.
Do a "Google" search and you'll find that most sites give that same definition.
There wasn't any Chapter/Verse info in those definitions that I saw.

What Christ was saying is "this generation shall not pass away" He is referencing the generation that sees all of the signs that he just listed... ie. the abomination of desolation, the Sun and Moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky etc.
Not the saints he was preaching to but the future saints that will see the signs that he just prophesied about.

That could be.

However, the way I read it is in the context it is written.:

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

In 31 Jesus is telling his disciples that they will see those things, etc. and the next thing Jesus says
in 32 is....."this generation"..............
If the disciples were going to see those things, then others (this generation) would also see them.

Good Cheer

08-29-2022, 09:05 AM

I hope you didn't pay for that definition of Generation, because if you did you need to get your money refunded. :bigsmyl2:
Just curious, Where did you get that definition as it pertains to verse 32? Do you have any scripture tied to it

What Christ was saying is "this generation shall not pass away" He is referencing the generation that sees all of the signs that he just listed... ie. the abomination of desolation, the Sun and Moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky etc.
Not the saints he was preaching to but the future saints that will see the signs that he just prophesied about.

Spot on.
People have to realize that Jesus didn't say maybe learn the parable of the fig tree. He said learn it.
My thoughts are that the generation of the fig tree is here with both the good and the bad figs; 1948 plus 120 years being the window of time that puts us well into the prophesied third day.

Alabama358

08-29-2022, 11:50 AM

I got it from the internet.
Do a "Google" search and you'll find that most sites give that same definition.
There wasn't any Chapter/Verse info in those definitions that I saw.

I was just trying to add a little humor with the definition refund thingy, didn't mean to offend.

I think Christ added the "This Generation" in his sermon so that future saints that are living during the end times would know when they see all of the signs and wonders that he just prophesied, they would know the end is near...even at the door as Christ said.
So that it would not take them as a thief in the night and would not be a total surprise for the children of the light that some might have you believe...

As written by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2-5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are all recaps of Christ sermon of his return to gather/rapture his Saints. they all say the same thing but I personally think that Matthew 24 is the best rendition.

Rizzo

08-29-2022, 02:06 PM

Alabama358;5450284]I was just trying to add a little humor with the definition refund thingy, didn't mean to offend.
No offense taken Alabama358, I added the Chapter/Verse line in my reply with a sense of humor as well.

I think Christ added the "This Generation" in his sermon so that future saints that are living during the end times would know when they see all of the signs and wonders that he just prophesied, they would know the end is near...even at the door as Christ said.

Perhaps it is a translation issue.
If Jesus was previously talking about people in the future, then when he said "this generation" it would be pretty obvious that he was referencing those people in the future that he was just talking about.
But he was talking to the disciples and telling them that they would see those things, etc..............

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are all recaps of Christ sermon of his return to gather/rapture his Saints. they all say the same thing but I personally think that Matthew 24 is the best rendition.

I just read Matthew 24 and yes, the same statements from Luke 21: 31&32 are there.
Too bad the Word of God is written in a way where some will get a different meaning than others.
Thanks for your input.

1hole

08-30-2022, 09:48 PM

All that wisdom with not a single scripture. Lets try it again -

Okay, I accept your challenge knowing that neither logic nor scripture will mean anything to you. So, first, I'll stipulate that I'm fully aware this will accomplish nothing with you.

1 You say the saints will be rapture pretrib before the 7 years (no scripture stated to back up this position)

Human history records many periods of localized disasters but nothing even approaches the miseries of the seven years of world wide misery as is described in the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the apostle John.

Biblically speaking, the Tribulation will be a world wide time in which the wrath of God is visited on those who have effectively shaken their fists in their rejection of God. BUT, the Church is clearly promised to be kept from the fury of God's coming time of universal WRATH. (1 Thess 5:9). Therefore, the Church must be snatched up to heaven with Jesus (i.e., raptured) before the Tribulation can begin.

2 Christ says he will be back to collect his saints from the 4 winds at the halfway point of the 7 years

Nothing in scripture even suggests that Jesus might return to earth at that point. I can't give you a Bible reference saying that's not when he will return but there are a lot of other places that also don't say that. ???

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the aof the Lord's abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ....

That is indeed at the halfway point of Tribulation but there's no suggestion of the Lord's return, nor a rapture, at that time. And I admit I have no reference specifically saying mid-trib is not when Jesus is coming back but a return then doesn't come close to fitting what is said!

3 Christ returns on a white horse with his saints to set up his 1000 year rule.

So you think there will be 3 times the Lord comes?

No, I don't think that at all and I don't believe even you think I do.

The Lord's return to earth, with his previously raptured Church, is described in Rev. 19:16. He will stop the bloody Armageddon battle to end the seven years of Tribulation/Wrath of God period and begin preparations for the Millennial Kingdom.

(There are other scriptures supporting all of that but one verse each is enough to make my points and you probably won't honestly read any of them anyway so I'll drop it here.)

Good Cheer

08-31-2022, 07:29 AM

"Okay, I accept your challenge knowing that neither logic nor scripture will mean anything to you."

That appears to depict the whole of pre-trib rapturism.

1hole

08-31-2022, 11:25 AM

Well Cheer, how 'bout YOU stop taking negative cheep shots that mean nothing in application and tell us YOUR expert view of the rapture and when (or if?) it will happen. Maybe just once? :)

Good Cheer

09-01-2022, 10:38 AM

It's easy. As previously stated, from my studies I think Christ's return will probably happen somewhere in the window of time formed from 2000 years after he was murdered until 120 years after the start of the fig tree generation. In other words, that it will take place during the prophesied third day and it will be of the generation foretold.
For my thoughts on a pre-trib rapture theory, I've been through the arguments for and against as I needed to decide for myself what I think about it. I don't buy the theory, I don't buy that it was taught long ago. As to whether the theory was of demonic inspiration to Margaret McDonald or a marketing gimmick by Darby or a promotion by zionists financing Scofield for their own ends... it's a mess. I've seen what those arguments have to offer and see no reason why it could not have been all three. One thing for sure and certain, promoting the theory in the churches of the United States is certainly being done with political aims. Whether that's good or bad generally depends upon ones point of view and unfortunately ones politics rather than study of scripture.
So, 1hole, there you are, my thoughts as of September 1, 2022.

Alabama358

09-01-2022, 02:29 PM

Biblically speaking, the Tribulation will be a world wide time in which the wrath of God is visited on those who have effectively shaken their fists in their rejection of God. BUT, the Church is clearly promised to be kept from the fury of God's coming time of universal WRATH. (1 Thess 5:9). Therefore, the Church must be snatched up to heaven with Jesus (i.e., raptured) before the Tribulation can begin.
This is the most common mistake made by folks in the Pre-Trib tribes. No where in the scripture does it say that whole 7 year period is GOD pouring out his wrath, on the contrary even Christ himself says that the Great Tribulation doesnt even start until the half way point.
Matthew 24: 21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Nothing in scripture even suggests that Jesus might return to earth at that point. I can't give you a Bible reference saying that's not when he will return but there are a lot of other places that also don't say that. ???

That is indeed at the halfway point of Tribulation but there's no suggestion of the Lord's return, nor a rapture, at that time. And I admit I have no reference specifically saying mid-trib is not when Jesus is coming back but a return then doesn't come close to fitting what is said!

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So you agree that this is the midpoint on or about 3 1/2 years in to the 7 year period... Christ clearly states that he (unless you think the Son of Man is someone else) will come in the Clouds (doesn't say feet on the earth) at the sound of a Great Trump to gather his Elect. (notice that it is the midway point and his elect are still here and he is gathering them up...as in snatching them in to the air in to the clouds. kind of like a Rapture)

Forget my words, if you can read Christ's words and not see it then I will have to assume your heart is hardened for what ever reason
The only reason I have spent this much time and effort is in hopes that other folks could see the truth and not be tricked in to this false doctrine.

Good Cheer

09-02-2022, 11:27 AM

I just re-read Luke 21.

Jesus tells many predictions to his disciples and also says:

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Generation definition: the entire body of individuals born and living at about the same time.

Hmmmm,....That generation is long gone and those predictions of Jesus have not occurred.

Keep a close eye on Ye Auld Englishmen.
The whole of the chapter including that sentence needs to be parted out in order to get the meaning of what was said.
However, with regards to "this generation", the word translated as "generation" means a generation as a time, an era, as well as a group of individuals.
As for that word translated as "this", Mark recorded a different word (akin to backwards, a baffling wind) from what Matthew and Luke did (a feminine plural pronoun not meaning what was then present). However, in context they all got the meaning across, a meaning quite opposed to what we would come away with reading only the King James version. Just another example of how very valuable good quality interlinear texts and Strong's concordances are for us, and pointing out how very valuable the King James version is due to the resources that are keyed to it.

Good Cheer

09-02-2022, 01:17 PM

Just something I have to wonder about...
Jesus pointed out that he didn't know when he was returning.
Did you ever wonder about how he could see future events while he was here in a flesh body but not see when future events would transpire? I'd never thought about it before but now it's something I should file away for future reference.

sniper

09-12-2022, 11:11 PM

As I understand it, the "rapture" occurs at the second coming of the Savior, which will ocur during the very dark days of the Antichrist. Two witnesses...Prophets... will have preached in the Holy Land for about two years, showing marvelous instances of power, and will be killed, causing great celebration among the wicked of the world. They will be revitalized, which will be seen on world media. Israel will be besieged, and the forces of the Lord will preserve it. Somewhere in there, Jesus will descend, wearing robes of scarlet, with 144,000 of his servants with him. The righteous, "good" and the innocent will be caught up to meet the Lord, and the wicked will be destroyed by fire. I hope that includes Mosquitoes, Horseflies and Sandspurs, among many other things that have tormented man since Adam. This will usher in the MILENNIUM...the thousand years of peace when Satan will be bound, and have no influence on the earth, and Jesus' righteous government will reign supreme. Definitely not an exhaustive list of the happenings, but I hope me and my family will be on the "right" side if it happens in my lifetime...or not!

1hole

09-13-2022, 12:08 PM

We gentiles have a lot of trouble understanding the Bible because we don't have the historical foundations of the people who wrote it - and as it was written to - the Jews. For one thing, the Jews did not always write as we do, i.e., in sequence.

For instance, in Isaiah (and others in the O.T.) the writings of prophecy may move from the near time to a far distant time in the same sentence without missing a step! Jesus' words about "this generation will not pass away" before his return are an example; he obviously didn't mean the generation he spoke to before his ascension so it has to be aimed at the generation living immediately before his second coming.

We make too big a deal about what Jesus said to his contemporaries when we forget (if we ever really understood) that Jesus' came to us as the "son of man", not as God or even as a mixture of God and man. Jesus was born a human infant; he lived, worked and died as a human under the Mosaic Law. During that time the Jesus ONLY knew what the Father revealed to him. Thus Jesus, the son of man, at the moment he spoke those "no one knows" words didn't know when he would return but that cannot possibly mean Jesus, God the Son of God, does not now know exactly when he will return. Believing Jesus still does not know exactly when he will return has to presume an impossible separation of knowledge within the all-knowing unity of our Triune God (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) and that simply cannot exist.

Finally, the Rapture of the Church is NOT the "second coming". In fact, neither the Rapture nor the second coming will occur at mid-trib, that simply starts the more horrible second half of the seven years of Tribulation. At mid-trib another 3 1/2 years of hell on earth remains before the Lord actually comes back with his saints and puts a stop to the massive bloodshed. Then He establishes his 1,000 year kingdom (Rev 19-22).

exile

09-16-2022, 01:41 AM

"For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,..."

Colossians 1:19 (E.S.V.)

exile

Alabama358

09-19-2022, 10:16 PM

We gentiles have a lot of trouble understanding the Bible because we don't have the historical foundations of the people who wrote it - and as it was written to - the Jews. For one thing, the Jews did not always write as we do, i.e., in sequence.
I think it is tad presumptuous of you to speak for Gentiles of the world...
It would have been more accurate if you said that YOU have a lot of trouble understanding the Bible and not "We Gentiles".

Also.. I am not sure where you got the Chuckleheaded idea that the Bible was written to "the Jews"... interesting that the New Testament was primarily written in Greek (Koine Greek)
You would think that if it was written to "The Jews" it would have been written in Hebrew/Aramaic their language and not Greek the language of the gentiles.

So I guess your position is that the Bible was written to the Jews and not to the Church?? Very Strange

Finally, the Rapture of the Church is NOT the "second coming". In fact, neither the Rapture nor the second coming will occur at mid-trib, that simply starts the more horrible second half of the seven years of Tribulation. At mid-trib another 3 1/2 years of hell on earth remains before the Lord actually comes back with his saints and puts a stop to the massive bloodshed. Then He establishes his 1,000 year kingdom (Rev 19-22).

SO... you have acknowledged back on 09-01 that the abomination of desolation, Sun and moon darkened, stars falling etc. is the mid point of the 7 year period... and I quote "That is indeed at the halfway point of Tribulation"

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the LORD says after the abomination of desolation that he is coming in the clouds with a sound of a great trumpet to gather his Elect from one end of heaven to the other at the Mid point but you say in fact he is not. :?:

I am not sure what type of mental gymnastic lunacy a person of faith would have to go through to read Matthew 24 and say that Christ is not talking about his return to collect his saints

1hole

09-20-2022, 07:55 PM

[/SIZE]
SO... you have acknowledged back on 09-01 that the abomination of desolation, Sun and moon darkened, stars falling etc. is the mid point of the 7 year period... and I quote "That is indeed at the halfway point of Tribulation"

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the LORD says after the abomination of desolation that he is coming in the clouds with a sound of a great trumpet to gather his Elect from one end of heaven to the other at the Mid point but you say in fact he is not. :?:

I am not sure what type of mental gymnastic lunacy a person of faith would have to go through to read Matthew 24 and say that Christ is not talking about his return to collect his saints

Ah goodness Alabama, you do go to a lot of trouble attempting to build your reputation as a theologian.

Let's both think on this a bit and I'll do it without snide suggestions that those who disagree with my doctrines are, ipso facto, "darkside" followers of Satan. Thing is, I like letting scripture test and prove itself without injecting my "help".

In Bible study I think it's best to let scripture speak for itself. We do that by proper exegesis, i.e., a drawing out of what is actually written. We go wrong when we inject our own ideas by exiguous, i.e., by inserting our words in between the actually written words in order to build or support our own doctrines; man's exiguous explains how a LOT of bad doctrines get promulgated in the church.

You take snip-its of isolated scripture and assign meanings that are not stated and then you disparage those who disagree with you; that's not good.

For instance, and in no particular order, you say the New Testament was originally written in Greek but we certainly don't know that. Yeah, the oldest surviving bits of scripture that we have are in Greek but they were written a few hundred years after the fact so that's really not authoritative of how the Bible started is it? So, no, we really don't know what language the N.T. was originally written in but Aramaic seems much more probable to me than Greek OR Latin! BUT, we do KNOW most of it was originally written in the Hebrew style and it remains that way today.

So, to whom was the Bible primarily aimed? Well, as Paul said about his missionary travels, wherever he went he always first went to Jewish synagogues, meaning he spoke to "the Jew first" and then the gentiles. And all of the N.T. authors save two were Jews; taken together that might mean something.

Then consider who the Bible's recorded history and prophecies were addressed. As important as we gentiles think we are, there's nothing specific in scripture about England or Spain, nothing at all about London or Chicago or Joe Biden. In fact, the whole of the Bible story revolves around God's promises to Abraham's descendents and what is now Israel and Jerusalem, and that's specifically where things on earth will end. Thus, all of the names and lands mentioned in scripture only have importance so far as they have had or will yet have an impact on the Jewish bloodline, not the gentile church as such. Surely even you recognise all of that!

You're tied up with injecting your belief about the angel's collecting God's saints at mid-trib; that's a mistake. Read Rev. 19 and then Matt 24. You should easily recognise that Matt 24 was spoken directly to and for the Jews who will have gone through the Tribulation. Thus, the Rapture of the church is certainly NOT the "second coming" to earth as it's described in Matt 24 and Rev 19. The Lord's return to earth along with his blood-bought bride (the church) will occur AFTER the Tribulation, not halfway through it.

The Tribulation is when the angel's you worry about will gather up the scattered believers who come to faith - and survive - long after the Rapture AND long after the second coming AND (I believe) well after the Millennial Kingdom!

The heavenly disruptions of the end time's you get so hung up on will also occur after the Tribulation is completed, not after all of us have been sitting around somewhere in space (?) watching the final 3 1/2 years of the horrors of it.

Let God be true and allow him to speak for himself. I suggest you look at what his' Bible actually says and reconcile all of it, not just what you think it should say, before you become so dogmatic about disconnected bits and pieces that you can't think straight. :)

Good Cheer

09-20-2022, 09:53 PM

And when Jesus had departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon He told His disciples...

1hole

10-04-2022, 06:32 PM

[/SIZE]
SO... you have acknowledged back on 09-01 that the abomination of desolation, Sun and moon darkened, stars falling etc. is the mid point of the 7 year period... and I quote "That is indeed at the halfway point of Tribulation"

I don't know who you're quoting but, as you state it, it's not me.

Indeed, the abomination that causes desolation in the temple occurs at mid-trib. But all of the other things you try to force in will happen at the end of the Tribulation, not halfway through.

Note that verse 29 in your quote below specifically tells us that what's said there occurs AFTER the Tribulation of those days. The moon/stars stuff, plus the return of the Lord with his church/Bride, clearly comes at the END of the Tribulation.

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Do you really think Jesus will return to earth and bring the church with Him at mid-trib? There would still be 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation to unroll, where would He and the Church go to watch the remaining earthly horrors and what would they be doing as they watched? NO, your idea of a mid-trib return of Jesus and a Raptured church cannot be true!

The Lord's return to earth to establish a new earthly kingdom centered in a new Jerusalem, with its thousand years of world peace, will clearly be after all of the tribulation disasters and wars, not halfway through them.

So, I say your sequence of events is wrong. Ask yourself; Why would the Lord choose to gather his elect halfway through the Tribulation? Would his angels find and take the living saints or raise the newly dead?? Either way, that's not what scripture says (or even suggests) will happen at the end of the world as we know it and it would make no sense at all for God to send angels out to blow horns and only gather about half of his own people at mid-trib!

I am not sure what type of mental gymnastic lunacy a person of faith would have to go through to read Matthew 24 and say that Christ is not talking about his return to collect his saints

Gymnastics? Lunacy? Man, you should lighten up on Matt 24 as if it alone tells us anything about the end times!

Reconcile the little of the end times you see in Matt 24 with the books of Daniel and Revelation (and others) to learn what Jews - but not us Gentiles! - are taught from infancy. That alone would open your eyes to the bigger picture.

Alabama358

10-18-2022, 01:51 PM

I don't know who you're quoting but, as you state it, it's not me.

Indeed, the abomination that causes desolation in the temple occurs at mid-trib. But all of the other things you try to force in will happen at the end of the Tribulation, not halfway through.

Note that verse 29 in your quote below specifically tells us that what's said there occurs AFTER the Tribulation of those days. The moon/stars stuff, plus the return of the Lord with his church/Bride, clearly comes at the END of the Tribulation.

Do you really think Jesus will return to earth and bring the church with Him at mid-trib? No not "bring the church" he is coming mid-trib to collect the church ie. his elect, his words not mine There would still be 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation to unroll, where would He and the Church go to watch the remaining earthly horrors and what would they be doing as they watched? Only a complete moron, maybe an illiterate... or a person being disingenuous and seeking to deceive could read this entire post and think that that is my position. So which of the three are you? NO, your idea of a mid-trib return of Jesus and a Raptured church cannot be true!

The Lord's return to earth to establish a new earthly kingdom centered in a new Jerusalem, with its thousand years of world peace, will clearly be after all of the tribulation disasters and wars, not halfway through them.

So, I say your sequence of events is wrong. Ask yourself; Why would the Lord choose to gather his elect halfway through the Tribulation? Would his angels find and take the living saints or raise the newly dead?? Either way, that's not what scripture says (or even suggests) will happen at the end of the world as we know it and it would make no sense at all for God to send angels out to blow horns and only gather about half of his own people at mid-trib!

Gymnastics? Lunacy? Man, you should lighten up on Matt 24 as if it alone tells us anything about the end times! Good idea... "lighten up" (real words of wisdom right there) on the actual Scripture that "The Church" in real time and face to face went to Christ and said "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" You are a regular genius!

Reconcile the little of the end times you see in Matt 24 with the books of Daniel and Revelation (and others) Of course you give no specific scripture to learn what Jews - but not us Gentiles! - are taught from infancy. That alone would open your eyes to the bigger picture.

I Would encourage anyone that has not read the entire thread to go back and do so, there is a lot of good facts and Scripture quoted.

1hole ...It appears that you would like to just pop in at the end of the thread and make up a false/fake argument hoping that folks will just read your disingenuous last post and not read the entire post that is backed up by Scripture and fact refuting your Darby Clown-show antics.

Proverbs 26:11 comes to mind
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

.429&H110

10-18-2022, 06:11 PM

You ask me to
"get over Matthew 24"

My Lord, God, and Savior said:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

>and then shall<
Two "Shalls" in one sentence!
"Shall" is never optional.

No getting over, or around, evangelizing this world.
Surely we have missionaries: you and me.

If anything, we are backsliding, cancelled, masked, isolated.
If we want to hasten the day, we need revival and I do not mean a TV revival.
We must serve our Lord; that is why He put us here:
"witness unto all nations"
and only then will our Lord come.

"Even so, Jesus come quickly"

1hole

10-18-2022, 09:15 PM

You ask me to "get over Matthew 24"

My Lord, God, and Savior said:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Sorry, I wrote imperfectly.

I meant you need to "get over" limiting yourself to Matt 24 to truly understand the end times because there is much more scripture dealing with that topic. A true understanding has to include extensive end times passages from Revelation, Danial, Thess, Psalms, Ezekiel, and shorter bits from several other books. Only with a broad end times knowledge can we actually get a proper understanding of the original message.

For instance, Revelation expands to tell us the end times preaching of the gospel to all the world is meant for the 144,000 who are chosen and marked to be Jesus' world wide witnesses are taken from the 12 tribes of Israel during the 7 Years of Tribulation so they cannot be the world wide gentile church before the Tribulation. (That does NOT mean the church has no responsibility to reach as many lost people as we can today but it does mean that the end times work of the marked 144,000 Jews is not written to us.)

Good Cheer

10-19-2022, 08:43 AM

You think that's a 144,000 Jews ?

1hole

10-19-2022, 04:42 PM

You think that's a 144,000 Jews ?

Cheer, it really doesn't matter what you or I "think" about who the 144,000 end time witnesses might be, does it?

The Bible clearly tell us they will be Jews (see Rev 7:4). Therefore they are, or more precisely to the point, "YES!", they will be Jews.

Well, okay, they'll certainly be Jews unless you're a Jehovah Witness. Or a Mormon. Or a Christian Scientist (which is neither Christian nor science by the way). Or a 7th Day Adventist. Or one of a few other religious cults claiming to be Christian .... ??? :)

Good Cheer

10-19-2022, 05:19 PM

No, scripture doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews.
Rev. 7:4 doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews.
You referenced it yourself so you know it doesn't say that.
Skip on over to 22:19.

farmbif

10-19-2022, 07:11 PM

dont know where the idea for rapture came from. but, when its your time its your time so you might as well try to live your life as if you were to be judged at any time. often wondered if thanksgiving is the rapture for turkey's

1hole

10-19-2022, 09:11 PM

No, scripture doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews. Rev. 7:4 doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews.
You referenced it yourself so you know it doesn't say that.
Skip on over to 22:19.

Ah Cheer, once again you strain mightily to produce a scriptural distinction that doesn't make any difference to the message. (And, once again, you imply that those who disagree with you are spiritually ignorant but without you having the courage to say what you think is right; why do you do that?)

The Rev 7 passages tell us exactly who the 144,000 are. They are Jews so their children are Jews of the same tribe. That's enough to tell anyone the 144,000 witnesses are all Jews of the highest order.

You should go back and reread the whole of what Rev 7:4 is only a snippet. And do try to get the whole picture from 7:1 to 7:8. Note that scripture lists the obviously Jewish tribes - save Dan - and that each of the named 12 tribes contribute 12,000; surely that means something even to you!

Watch out for Rev 22:19. I believe your desire to delete Jews from that witness list says more about you than it does about Dan. Or me.

Good Cheer

10-20-2022, 09:58 AM

Are you saying you believe all the tribes are "Jews"?

ioon44

10-20-2022, 10:19 AM

[QUOTE=Good Cheer;5475060]Are you saying you believe all the tribes are "Jews"?[/QUOTE

Revelation 7:4
New International Version
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

New Living Translation
And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

English Standard Version
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Berean Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

Berean Literal Bible
And I heard the number of those having been sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

King James Bible
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

New King James Version
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

New American Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

NASB 1995
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

NASB 1977
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Amplified Bible
And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Christian Standard Bible
And I heard the number of the sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:

American Standard Version
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And I heard the number who were sealed - 144,000, from all the tribes of Israel:

Contemporary English Version
Then I heard how many people had been marked on the forehead. There were 144,000, and they came from every tribe of Israel:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I heard the number of them that were signed, an hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel.

Good News Translation
And I was told that the number of those who were marked with God's seal on their foreheads was 144,000. They were from the twelve tribes of Israel,

International Standard Version
I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of Israel:

Literal Standard Version
And I heard the number of those sealed—one hundred forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

New American Bible
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites:

NET Bible
Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:

Good Cheer

10-20-2022, 10:22 AM

1hole

10-20-2022, 02:16 PM

Good Cheer:
ioon44,
I know what scripture says. What are you saying?

Goodness Cheer,what does the Bible say that you disagree with? You know that scripture is quite clear about who the 144,000 are and ioon went to a lot of trouble to provide you with specific data but you brush it off like chaff. Wow.

With all that knowledge, you still disagree with the world and you do so without a word of defense for another of the many theological points you get so hung up on; why is that? I mean, you're always ready leap to the front and post that those who disagree with you are wrong but then that you refuse to say what YOU believe ! That's odd.

Judgements about people we don't know are often wrong but, assuming you have good intentions, I will once again ask you to explain why/how you are so insistent that all of the quoted Bible passages about both the Rapture and Tribulation AND the 144,000 Jewish witnesses are wrong and explain why everyone who believes things you don't have been deceived by the "dark side"?

Good Cheer

10-20-2022, 02:34 PM

Gentlemen,
Nowhere does scripture even suggest that all the tribes of Israel are Jews.

.429&H110

10-20-2022, 03:10 PM

For an odd co-incidence
Yesterday I cribbed 2T4
At church we been reading Timothy for sure.

2 Tim 4:8

8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

All them also that
Love?

I cut out a Playboy cartoon (1970) where she's holding a free love sign and says
The love is free, but the sex costs $20
Made my Dad (1918) laugh every time he opened my toolbox.
Whoever it was that stole that box, needs that lesson more than me.

Jesus came to teach us agape
He will be back to see if we learned agape.
What did we do with the whole idea of "God so loved..."
what did we teach our kids?
Where's our joy?

The old Greeks had trouble with the concept of love.
The new Americans have the same problem.
We're trying to sort out male and female?
"Nothing new under the sun" said Solomon.

"...and then the end shall come" said Jesus

I believe God needs no calendar or wristwatch
but we are so obsessed with our blink of mortality on earth
that He created time so we could track our short lives: Night and Day.
We think we are clever, counting nanoseconds based on the earth's rotation.

What is gravity? The units are per second squared.
What is time? Time requires belief in a standard.
We use the Babylonian 360?
No wonder the old earthers are off by a factor of 10^6 years.
God is like gravity: Everything's great until you fall.

"My ways are not your ways", He said.
We are put here to serve Him, to feed His sheep.
As a witness to His saving Grace I can only say
He Is.

1hole

10-20-2022, 11:09 PM

Gentlemen,
Nowhere does scripture even suggest that all the tribes of Israel are Jews.

What is said about the 144,000 witnesses is that they will be 12,000 each from each of the 12 tribes of Jews.

You still refuse to put your beliefs in front of your projections of who you think "real Jews" are and you don't even try to convince anyone of anything except how certain you are of your own beliefs, whatever they may be.

But, if you mean what I've come to suspect you MIGHT mean about spiritual Jews verse bloodline Jews, you have missed some important facts. First, the 144,000 of Revelation really will be Jews and they really will come from their bloodline tribe. Second, they will come as God's chosen, marked, sealed and protected evangelical witnesses to Christ so they WILL be teaching the gospel of salvation by faith in Him, not the laws of Moses; meaning those men will be fully Jews by both blood and spirit.

But, I may be wrong in my guesses about what you might "believe" about anything because you've steadfastly refused to say.

Thundarstick

10-21-2022, 05:18 AM

Good Cheer

10-21-2022, 06:47 AM

What is said about the 144,000 witnesses is that they will be 12,000 each from each of the 12 tribes of Jews.

You still refuse to put your beliefs in front of your projections of who you think "real Jews" are and you don't even try to convince anyone of anything except how certain you are of your own beliefs, whatever they may be.

But, if you mean what I've come to suspect you MIGHT mean about spiritual Jews verse bloodline Jews, you have missed some important facts. First, the 144,000 of Revelation really will be Jews and they really will come from their bloodline tribe. Second, they will come as God's chosen, marked, sealed and protected evangelical witnesses to Christ so they WILL be teaching the gospel of salvation by faith in Him, not the laws of Moses; meaning those men will be fully Jews by both blood and spirit.

But, I may be wrong in my guesses about what you might "believe" about anything because you've steadfastly refused to say.

My beliefs are not in question here except as a dodge for you to create shelter for your nonsense. Scripture is quite clear in this matter. As stated by scripture and noted above, the 144,000 are not all Jews. You should try to abide by Proverbs 6-16 through 6:19 and stick to the word instead of twisting scripture to suit ludicrous theories and trying to bait others into specious arguments.

ioon44

10-21-2022, 08:32 AM

Proverbs 6:16-19

16 There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Soo what does this have to do with the 144,000 Jewish Evangelist of Revelation 7:4?

1hole

10-21-2022, 02:43 PM

My beliefs are not in question here except as a dodge for you to create shelter for your nonsense. Scripture is quite clear in this matter.

Cheer, you love to jump into Biblical conversations by saying others are "wrong" and you do it with little or no meaningful support for what you say. And you've even claimed that those who don't quickly agree with you have been deluded by the "darkside." That's dishonest and hateful. I'm sure you're smart enough to know that approach immediately puts your comments/beliefs into the center of any question you seek to take over. And you seek to do a lot of that.

As stated by scripture and noted above, the 144,000 are not all Jews.

You claim what scripture doesn't say that about the 144,000 being Jews. Like many other things, you say it but you don't even try to prove what you claim except by another of your specious opinions. Loudly proclaiming others to be wrong is hardly an honest Christian apology for your own vaporous beliefs.

IF I'm wrong about this, all you need to prove me the liar you like to imply is to simply tell us which scripture/verse says - or even suggests in this case - that God's 144,000 chosen end time witness team will not be Jews. Right now, everyone but you sees scripture that tells us, in good detail, that none of God's marked and undefiled end times witnesses will be gentiles but will indeed be Jews, both by tribal blood and spirit.

BUT ... if I'm wrong and you know scripture that "clearly" contradicts what's written about those chosen men being Jews in every sense - without anyone else's presumptive distortions one way or the other - just clearly tell us where it is.

You should try to abide by Proverbs 6-16 through 6:19 and stick to the word instead of twisting scripture to suit ludicrous theories and trying to bait others into specious arguments.

"Stick to the word"; don't "twist" it? Well, if I'm "clearly" in "specious" Bible error about every single one of those those witnesses being Jews to their core it should be easy for you to say where I can clearly find it - and I mean in the Bible, not in one of your "ludicrous theories" or a cultic comic book - because when I'm scripturally wrong I want to know it!

But, in all honesty Cheer, I'm not "baiting" you. In fact, I really don't want to cause you to suffer any (Prov 6:16-19 type) hate and discontent at all so please don't bother about my questions if you start to feel that way.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus! [smilie=w: [smilie=w:

1hole

10-21-2022, 02:58 PM

Ref. Proverbs 6:16-19

Good Cheer to ioon:

16 There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Soo what does this have to do with the 144,000 Jewish Evangelist of Revelation 7:4?

ioon, You mistakenly presume Cheer is honestly trying to resolve a theological difference; he is not. What he means is that no one should post anything that makes him feel angry because that makes him angry! ;)

Good Cheer

10-21-2022, 05:27 PM

Cheer, you love to jump into Biblical conversations by saying others are "wrong" and you do it with little or no meaningful support for what you say. And you've even claimed that those who don't quickly agree with you have been deluded by the "darkside." That's dishonest and hateful. I'm sure you're smart enough to know that approach immediately puts your comments/beliefs into the center of any question you seek to take over. And you seek to do a lot of that.

You claim what scripture doesn't say that about the 144,000 being Jews. Like many other things, you say it but you don't even try to prove what you claim except by another of your specious opinions. Loudly proclaiming others to be wrong is hardly an honest Christian apology for your own vaporous beliefs.

IF I'm wrong about this, all you need to prove me the liar you like to imply is to simply tell us which scripture/verse says - or even suggests in this case - that God's 144,000 chosen end time witness team will not be Jews. Right now, everyone but you sees scripture that tells us, in good detail, that none of God's marked and undefiled end times witnesses will be gentiles but will indeed be Jews, both by tribal blood and spirit.

BUT ... if I'm wrong and you know scripture that "clearly" contradicts what's written about those chosen men being Jews in every sense - without anyone else's presumptive distortions one way or the other - just clearly tell us where it is.

"Stick to the word"; don't "twist" it? Well, if I'm "clearly" in "specious" Bible error about every single one of those those witnesses being Jews to their core it should be easy for you to say where I can clearly find it - and I mean in the Bible, not in one of your "ludicrous theories" or a cultic comic book - because when I'm scripturally wrong I want to know it!

But, in all honesty Cheer, I'm not "baiting" you. In fact, I really don't want to cause you to suffer any (Prov 6:16-19 type) hate and discontent at all so please don't bother about my questions if you start to feel that way.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus! [smilie=w: [smilie=w:

As others have pointed out to you previously, time and again you incorrectly make statements about what scriptures say.
Then you revel in arguments and attacking those who offer you correction. When you are not claiming you have it all figured out.
The scripture in this case says 144,000 will be sealed of the tribes of Israel, also providing the number to be sealed from each tribe, and you say all 144,000 are "Jews". That's nonsense.
As for the claim that you're not baiting, see Proverbs 6:19.

1hole

10-21-2022, 09:17 PM

The scripture in this case says 144,000 will be sealed of the tribes of Israel, also providing the number to be sealed from each tribe, and you say all 144,000 are "Jews". That's nonsense.

Nonsense? How so? Once again you only say I'm wrong; that's not much. Once again you protest against Rev 7:4-8 but you still haven't told us who you think those carefully selected and sealed Jews are so the original questions you raised remain unanswered.

You've repeatedly said scripture "clearly" says those 144,000 Jewish witnesses aren't "Jewish". That's not what WE read so we must continue to wonder why you refuse to simply tell us where/how we mere Bible study plebs can look to confirm your own excellent position. ??? ;)

HangFireW8

10-21-2022, 10:35 PM

When did certain Christian sects start to believe and teach rapture doctrine?

Back to the original question.

Modern, western understanding of the Rapture is generally traced back to John Nelson Darby, a Plymouth Brethren preacher who died dirt poor in the service of the gospel.

Thunder Stick

10-22-2022, 10:17 AM

Back to the original question.

Modern, western understanding of the Rapture is generally traced back to John Nelson Darby, a Plymouth Brethren preacher who died dirt poor in the service of the gospel.

The term, “Premillenialist” means someone who believes Christ will return just before His millennial (thousand year) reign on earth. In reality, the early church believed in a “Pretribulation” return of Christ for His “Bride” the church, composed of believing Christians. The tribulation is a seven-year period of God’s wrath, foretold by the prophet Daniel that occurs before the millennial reign of Christ. This return is called the rapture. (Greek: harpazo = Latin: rapture) Saint Victorius, Bishop of Petau, wrote of the pretribulation return when he wrote a Revelation commentary about the church being taken out. So did Pseudo Ephraem in AD 372.

These were not mere theories of men but actual teachings from the Bible itself. In John 14:1-3 Jesus says he will return for His own. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that Christ will come for His people then, in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, comes the destruction and verse 9 calls it God’s wrath. This is verified by 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and James 5:7-9, all of which speak of the pretribulation return of Christ. Its purpose is to keep believers safe from the approaching global crisis.

Since it is found in the Bible verses I’ve listed. Darby did not come up with anything “new” and many mistakenly credit him with the idea of the pretribulation “catching away” of believers. Reverend Morgan Edwards’ “The Millennium” (1788) predated Darby by seventy years. Joseph Mede also wrote about the Rapture. (1586-1638)

In reality, the various beliefs in mid-tribulation, pre-wrath and other raptures are the “new” ideas, not the longstanding belief in the imminent, pretribulation rapture of the Christian church. Pre-tribulation simply means that the Rapture of the church must precede the seven years of tribulation.

The rapture of the church will be swift and without warning. This is why every Christian should live as though this is the day that Christ will return.

skeet1

10-22-2022, 10:43 AM

In my mind, the problem of the rapture is this idea of believers mysteriously disappearing and going to be with God. When Jesus returns scripture says every eye will see him so where is the mystery?

Good Cheer

10-22-2022, 10:50 AM

Nonsense? How so? Once again you only say I'm wrong; that's not much. Once again you protest against Rev 7:4-8 but you still haven't told us who you think those carefully selected and sealed Jews are so the original questions you raised remain unanswered.

You've repeatedly said scripture "clearly" says those 144,000 Jewish witnesses aren't "Jewish". That's not what WE read so we must continue to wonder why you refuse to simply tell us where/how we mere Bible study plebs can look to confirm your own excellent position. ??? ;)

This is funny. They are from twelve Israelite tribes.
How can someone not comprehend that the Israelite tribes are not all Jewish?
Whoever filled your head with that nonsense, you'd better find out what else they fooled you with.

Good Cheer

10-22-2022, 11:00 AM

Thunder Stick

10-22-2022, 11:30 AM

In my mind, the problem of the rapture is this idea of believers mysteriously disappearing and going to be with God. When Jesus returns scripture says every eye will see him so where is the mystery?

The mystery is that no one knows when Christ will call his bride home to be with him. We see in Jesus’ parable of the wise and foolish virgins that they didn’t t know when He would come for them.

The return of Christ to rule the earth for a thousand years is a later event, happening at the end of 7 years of tribulation. That is when the world will see Him coming.

Blessings.

1hole

10-22-2022, 12:41 PM

..... In reality, the various beliefs in mid-tribulation, pre-wrath and other raptures are the “new” ideas, not the longstanding belief in the imminent, pretribulation rapture of the Christian church. Pre-tribulation simply means that the Rapture of the church must precede the seven years of tribulation.

Well and truly said Thunder (plus some others above).

The early Roman Church ignored a lot of things, including salvation by faith alone in Jesus alone and any mention of the prophesied end times events; they could do that and get away with it when few people could read or even have access to Biblical scrolls. But, given that what we now know and call the pre-tribulation Rapture was explained by Paul in his letters to the churches at Corinth and Thessalonica it can't reasonably be called a "new" thing!

Some "modern" folk say Darby (plus Clarence Larkin, Schofield, David Jerimiah, Charles Ryrie, plus a very long list of other Bible scholars) first and foolishly promulgated a "new" concept of a Rapture for their personal gain but if that were true they all would have been vastly in error.

1hole

10-22-2022, 12:47 PM

This is funny. They are from twelve Israelite tribes.
How can someone not comprehend that the Israelite tribes are not all Jewish?
Whoever filled your head with that nonsense, you'd better find out what else they fooled you with.

Well, it wasn't you because you still don't even try to tell us who you think they really are. ??? ;)

Alex_4x4

10-22-2022, 01:27 PM

:-)

What's the problem?

In the state of Israel, for example, Jews of different nationalities live.

Jew is not a nationality.

Jew is a state of mind.

Good Cheer

10-22-2022, 04:31 PM

:-)

What's the problem?

In the state of Israel, for example, Jews of different nationalities live.

Jew is not a nationality.

Jew is a state of mind.

Spot on Alex.

Alex_4x4

10-23-2022, 05:47 AM

Spot on Alex.

I don't understand the meaning of this sentence. What does this text mean?

Good Cheer

10-23-2022, 09:01 AM

Good morning Alex.
"Spot on" means accurately hitting the target, a term indicating agreement.

ioon44

10-23-2022, 09:36 AM

Alex_4x4

10-23-2022, 10:04 AM

Good morning Alex.
"Spot on" means accurately hitting the target, a term indicating agreement.

Now I understand. Thanks for the clarification, otherwise Google translator failed to convey the meaning.

Alabama358

10-24-2022, 05:15 PM

Sorry, I wrote imperfectly.

I meant you need to "get over" limiting yourself to Matt 24 to truly understand the end times because there is much more scripture dealing with that topic. A true understanding has to include extensive end times passages from Revelation, Danial, Thess, Psalms, Ezekiel, and shorter bits from several other books. Only with a broad end times knowledge can we actually get a proper understanding of the original message. Of course you give no specific scripture probably because you are regurgitating someones else's rhetoric that didn't supply you with actual scripture or you do actually know and understand the scriptures but they run contrary to your doctrine so you chose to paraphrase and opinionate scripture to make it fit, so I will help you out
Daniel 8
Matthew 24
Mark 13
Joel 2
Acts 2
Luke 21
2 Thessalonians 2
Revelation 6
Revelation 7

Understanding end times scripture is sort of like surveying land. You need to have a solid stake in the ground to sight in on with a theodolite, "the instrument that can measure both horizontal and vertical angels, which allows surveyors to Triangulate the position of objects in a specific area."

My stake in the ground is The Abomination of Desolation which is solidly known to be at the Mid-point of the 7 year period and the Sun and Moon darkened and stars falling from the sky.

Key points from Above scriptures:
1 - The Abomination of Desolation takes place at the half way point of the 7 year period (I don't think anyone argues this)
2 - The Abomination of Desolation and the Sun and Moon being darkened and stars falling from the sky etc have to happen FIRST before the return of the LORD to collect his saints
3 - After the 6th seal is broken (half way point of the Tribulation) the appearance of the Church/Saints/Saved in Heaven having coming out of Great Tribulation at the ceremony of the sealing of the 144,000 "of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (see Below)

Revelation 7: 9 and 14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb..

Another point of fact is that Revelation 6:17 confirms that the Wrath of GOD starts after the sixth seal is broken (1/2 way point) as it says the wrath "IS" come meaning that it has just happened,

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? [/B]

For instance, Revelation expands to tell us the end times preaching of the gospel to all the world is meant for the 144,000 who are chosen and marked to be Jesus' world wide witnesses are taken from the 12 tribes of Israel during the 7 Years of Tribulation so they cannot be the world wide gentile church before the Tribulation. (That does NOT mean the church has no responsibility to reach as many lost people as we can today but it does mean that the end times work of the marked 144,000 Jews is not written to us.)
[B]Again your ignorance or distortion of scripture (or both) proceeds you...
The 144,000 are not sealed and sent to earth to preach until after the 6th seal is broken. The MID point of the 7 year (Pre-Wrath Post-Tribulation) you know... after the Abomination of Desolation, after the Sun and Moon are Darkened and after the Lord comes in the clouds to collect his saints...you know, where the countless group of saints that just came out of great Tribulation shows up in heaven with white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Also, you say... but, it does mean that the end times work of the marked 144,000 Jews is not written to us
That is a particularly odd position to take that the 144,000 will only be here to witness to the Jews and not to the unsaved gentiles?? Or maybe I misunderstood your poorly written point that has no particular scriptures to draw from?

1hole
You should really look up the above referenced scriptures and study and compare them. If you do that with an open mind, it may be an eye opening experience for you!

Also...
This Silly nonsense that you keep returning to with Good Cheer saying the 144,000 are Jews, it is hard to follow your logic. Unless you are leaning on...

Romans 2:29
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That would make all saved folks Jews as well,
So, if that is your position...then that destroys your argument that there is 1 program for the "Jews" and 1 program for the Gentile Saved.

Good Cheer

10-25-2022, 07:59 AM

Alabama358

10-28-2022, 12:54 PM

The term, “Premillenialist” means someone who believes Christ will return just before His millennial (thousand year) reign on earth. In reality, the early church believed in a “Pretribulation” return of Christ for His “Bride” the church, composed of believing Christians. The tribulation is a seven-year period of God’s wrath, foretold by the prophet Daniel that occurs before the millennial reign of Christ. This return is called the rapture. (Greek: harpazo = Latin: rapture) Saint Victorius, Bishop of Petau, wrote of the pretribulation return when he wrote a Revelation commentary about the church being taken out. So did Pseudo Ephraem in AD 372.

These were not mere theories of men but actual teachings from the Bible itself. In John 14:1-3 Jesus says he will return for His own. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says that Christ will come for His people then, in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, comes the destruction and verse 9 calls it God’s wrath. This is verified by 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and James 5:7-9, all of which speak of the pretribulation return of Christ. Its purpose is to keep believers safe from the approaching global crisis.

John chapter 14:1-3 (nothing at all here regarding secret pre-trib rapture)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1 Thessalonians chapter 4:16-17(nothing at all here regarding secret pre-trib rapture, on the contrary "a shout","voice of archangel", "trump of God" sounds more like Matthew 24:31 which happens after the abomination of desolation Middle of the 7 year period and not a secret pre-trib)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians chapter 5:3&9 (nothing at all here regarding secret pre-trib rapture, point of fact, the entire 7 year period is NOT the wrath of God, in fact the wrath of God does not start until the 6th seal is broken See Revelation 6:17, Also in Christ's own words Matthew 24:8 the first part of the 7 year period is only the beginning of sorrows and then Matthew 24:21 towards the Middle, events will move from sorrows to Great Tribulation but NOT Gods Wrath)
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians chapter 1:10 (nothing at all here regarding secret pre-trib rapture, see above regarding wrath)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

2 Thessalonians (nothing at all here regarding secret pre-trib rapture)

1 Corinthians chapter 15:51-58 (nothing at all here regarding secret pre-trib rapture, this scripture is definitely talking about the rapture and salvation but zero reference or inference to a before the 7 year period spoken of Daniel the prophet)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

James chapter 5:7-9 (nothing at all here regarding secret pre-trib rapture)
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Since it is found in the Bible verses I’ve listed. (But it is not found in any of the verses you listed, not one! This kind of reminds me of gaslighting technique, if you say something enough times, no matter how absurd... there are some folks that will believe it) Darby did not come up with anything “new” and many mistakenly credit him with the idea of the pretribulation “catching away” of believers. Reverend Morgan Edwards’ “The Millennium” (1788) predated Darby by seventy years. Joseph Mede also wrote about the Rapture. (1586-1638)

In reality, the various beliefs in mid-tribulation, pre-wrath and other raptures are the “new” ideas, not the longstanding belief in the imminent, pretribulation rapture of the Christian church. Pre-tribulation simply means that the Rapture of the church must precede the seven years of tribulation.

The rapture of the church will be swift and without warning. This is why every Christian should live as though this is the day that Christ will return. (1 Thessalonians chapter 5:3-4 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
I wonder what Paul was Talking about here)

I have went through and listed all of the scripture that you quote in your post as validating the pre-trib rapture of the church and none, no not one say anything at all specific to a pre-tribulation rapture time frame. They are referencing Salvation and the Rapture but zero reference to Pre 7 year period

If possible, could you to go through each one and explain their relevance to a pre- 7 year period rapture of the elect?

As I have posted before we know when the Abomination of Desolation and the Sun and Moon being darkened take place (on or about the midpoint) and that is how I chronologically interpret end time scripture regarding the rapture.

What specific event or scripture do you use to chronologically layout a Pre-Trib doctrine?

Good Cheer

10-29-2022, 06:50 AM

Time line check point: Once the man of sin is revealed everyone sees the sign of the coming. :)

1hole

10-29-2022, 05:49 PM

The mystery is that no one knows when Christ will call his bride home to be with him. We see in Jesus’ parable of the wise and foolish virgins that they didn’t t know when He would come for them.

Roger that. It takes a little knowledge of how Jewish weddings of that day were done to understand that the expectant bride had to stay at home and ready for her coming groom at all times because she wouldn't know the time of his coming.

It was no surprise that the groom WAS coming and when he did he would then take her back to his father's house to consummate the marriage.

He said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" ... and "You will be eternally be with me for eternity". That makes no sense IF the Lord's coming is only to be WITH his bride for another 3 1/2 years of hellish wrath rather than coming FOR his bride. No, the Church is NOT going to suffer hell on earth during God's tribulation/wrath!

Jesus doesn't do nonsensical things so coming in the sky for his bride is NOT the "second coming". We'll safely stay with him in the present heaven until we - his church - returns to earth with him AFTER the seven years of tribulation.

The return of Christ to rule the earth for a thousand years is a later event, happening at the end of 7 years of tribulation. That is when the world will see Him coming.

Right again.

Some folk, in their anti-semitic efforts to replace the Jews in God's heart and substitute the massively gentile church, trip over their own feet by trying to force an identical union of Jews and the church in order to eliminate the eternal promises God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; that's a mistake.

We also need to know that the Bride - the Church - is all believers from Pentecost to the Rapture.

In this historical time frame - this dispensation - we have been made spiritual Jews, with all the benefits therein, but we still are not "the apple of God's eye" Jews with a long list of unique promises from God. We gentiles are adopted/grafted in and are fully loved but we won't be dealt with exactly the same as the bloodline Jews in eternity.

Bottom line and general progression of next events:

1. The next big spiritual event is the Rapture - the snatching away - of the church. Jesus, the Bridegroom, will call for us - his bride - to "come up" to meet him in the sky. We'll immediately go back with him to the present heaven, i.e., his father's house. And that will all done without Jesus touching earth (or splitting the Mt. of Olives under his feet, from east to west).

2. Some seven (plus) years later, we will return to earth with him, all of us wearing white robes and riding white horses. Jesus will stop Satan's fighting and killing on earth and establish his millennial (earthly) Kingdom.

3. At the beginning of the millennial kingdom the "wheat from chafe", "sheep from goats", "good fish vs. bad fish" separeratons will occur. The born again survivors will populate the millennial.

4. During the millennial, God's ancient promises to Abram and the Jews will come to pass and they will live in the promised land - all of it. In gratitude for the overwhelming gift of Jesus, we gentiles will joyfully take turns helping to care for Jewish herds and fields.

5. At the end of the millennium, Satan will (briefly) be released from the pit. Once again he will find and gather rebellious followers for one last war against God. God will destroy those final rebellious forces by edict.

6. After the millennial, the judgements.
Jesus will first hold his Bema court to award the saints for their good works done in the flesh. Then the Great White Throne court for sentencing the already condemned lost to their earned and proper eternity will meet.

7. Finally, earth itself will be cleansed by fire from any taint of sin and then remade as new and clean as it was after the Flood. We will forever remain on this remade heavenly world with our Lord.

I believe all of that earthly cleaning and renewal work will be going on during the final G.W.Throne court hearings, but that's only my opinion based on the needed sequential timing, I have no scriptural foundation.

Thunder Stick

10-31-2022, 10:02 AM

I have went through and listed all of the scripture that you quote in your post as validating the pre-trib rapture of the church and none, no not one say anything at all specific to a pre-tribulation rapture time frame. They are referencing Salvation and the Rapture but zero reference to Pre 7 year period

If possible, could you to go through each one and explain their relevance to a pre- 7 year period rapture of the elect?

As I have posted before we know when the Abomination of Desolation and the Sun and Moon being darkened take place (on or about the midpoint) and that is how I chronologically interpret end time scripture regarding the rapture.

What specific event or scripture do you use to chronologically layout a Pre-Trib doctrine?

Addressing the bold part, The book of Revelation has a description of the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation. Chapters 1-3 are Christ describing the church age. Chapter 4 begins with "After this..." After what? After the church age. From this point on, the church is not mentioned again and the tribulation starts. (Well, the church is mentioned at the end of Revelation in the epilogue but the church is not on the earth during any of the tribulation period.) Chapter 4 continues, "... I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here..." That is how it will be for the church, us believers, when Christ takes us home. It is after the church age and before the tribulation.

A fellow minister and dear friend of mine disagree on this very subject. I believe in the pre trib rapture and he believes in a post trib rapture. I love the man. We are close friends. I like to tell him that the church is the bride of Christ and the tribulation is a time of His wrath upon the sinful world. So, Christ is not a wife beater. We both laugh.

Here is a link to a study on the Pre Tribulation rapture, with Bible references and graphics. I pray it is helpful in your study of the subject. Why a Pre-Tribulation Rapture? (http://web.archive.org/web/20040606191133/www.tribulationforces.com/tfcdr/whypretrib.shtml)

Blessings to all.

Good Cheer

10-31-2022, 11:51 AM

Thanks for link to read. I have to run an errand but will go through it later.

I did note that it leaves out that some think that there will be a five month tribulation.

Good Cheer

10-31-2022, 08:12 PM

An interesting treatment of the rapture question.
Dr. Michael Heiser: Are you a splitter or a joiner?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA6Vcuas5-g&t=155s

ioon44

11-01-2022, 08:51 AM

An interesting treatment of the rapture question.
Dr. Michael Heiser: Are you a splitter or a joiner?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA6Vcuas5-g&t=155s

Well worth watching, I can spend hours listing to Dr. Michael Heiser teachings.

Thunder Stick

11-01-2022, 09:16 AM

After the church age of Revelation 1-3 and continuing on in Revelation 4, we read...

4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, 6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.

Lots of glorious things to unpack here. God is on the throne and is preeminate. But who are these elders on those thones? It is the church. See Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation? (https://www.gotquestions.org/24-elders.html) The elders have crowns. Only Christians, believers, receive crowns. See What are the five heavenly crowns that believers can receive in Heaven? (https://www.gotquestions.org/heavenly-crowns.html)

Before the throne are seven torches. These seven lights, these seven burning torches again represent the seven churches of Revelation chapters 1-3. The church is not the light. Christ is the light. But the church bears the light. See: What are the seven candlesticks / lampstands of Revelation? (https://www.gotquestions.org/seven-candlesticks-lampstands.html)

Also before the throne is a sea of glass. A sea can represent a large number of people. It is smooth as glass. It is calm. It is still. Again, I believe it is all the redeemed in Christ and echos Psalm 46. “Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.” - Psalm 46:10

At this point in Revelation, the church is in heaven and the tribulation still hasn't started yet.

Have a blessed day everyone!

Good Cheer

11-01-2022, 09:54 AM

Well worth watching, I can spend hours listing to Dr. Michael Heiser teachings.

And I will again. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WbGoe-vCX8&list=PL_4NzRJYaCrXwR2CSjhMPmOb7VV_--WDu&index=1

1hole

11-01-2022, 12:27 PM

Addressing the bold part, The book of Revelation has a description of the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation. Chapters 1-3 are Christ describing the church age. Chapter 4 begins with "After this..." After what? After the church age. From this point on, the church is not mentioned again and the tribulation starts. (Well, the church is mentioned at the end of Revelation in the epilogue but the church is not on the earth during any of the tribulation period.) Chapter 4 continues, "... I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here..." That is how it will be for the church, us believers, when Christ takes us home. It is after the church age and before the tribulation.

Stick, the link you gave us in your #240 post is the best, easiest to follow and most detailed "short story" of end times events I've ever seen.

When I first grasped that Holy Spirit infused believers (the Church age, the blood-bought Bride of Christ) of this age and those believers coming before and after us isn't quite the same it was like the sun had suddenly entered a previously half closed door and I LOVE it!

NOW I know how those who rightly understand the end times can be encouraged (1 Thess 4:16-18) instead of horrified when thinking about the Rapture and the loving kindness - grace - of King Jesus!

Thank you sir, you do good work! :)

Good Cheer

11-03-2022, 12:30 PM

Seeing Russia saying no to a global government controlled by the west and knowing they will come against the planned seat of that government on the east end of the Med, this is a geopolitical lead up that has fascinated me for decades, I guess ever since I pulled out the world atlas and started labeling the regions. Whether we will be physically here to see it or not, Ez38 really is forming up. People who hold to a pre-trib rapture theory have argued back and forth over whether a fly away would happen before those forces are gathered to the fight; now just as with the technologies for the global financial and control system, the political realignments are actually being set in place. I'd think that people who expect to be raptured away would be watching world events and be rather... expecting.

1hole

11-03-2022, 03:08 PM

... Ez38 really is forming up. People who hold to a pre-trib rapture theory have argued back and forth over whether a fly away would happen before those forces are gathered to the fight; ....

"Argued back and forth?" by pretribers? Nope; that's another one falsely attributed to us, at least it's new to me. Fact is, I've never read (or even heard of) pre-rapture Psm 83 or Ezk 38-39 wars being "argued back and forth" before reading your post!

Since you raise the issue, it appears to me that both the Ezk 38-39 and Psm 83 wars are probably pre-rapture and certainly pre-trib. Either way, while it's all mildly interesting speculation it really doesn't matter because it doesn't impact any orthodox Christian doctrine.

I'd think that people who expect to be raptured away would be watching world events and be rather... expecting.

We do.

Good Cheer

11-03-2022, 04:30 PM

"Argued back and forth?" by pretribers? Nope; that's another one falsely attributed to us, at least it's new to me. Fact is, I've never read (or even heard of) pre-rapture Psm 83 or Ezk 38-39 wars being "argued back and forth" before reading your post!

Since you raise the issue, it appears to me that both the Ezk 38-39 and Psm 83 wars are probably pre-rapture and certainly pre-trib. Either way, while it's all mildly interesting speculation it really doesn't matter because it doesn't impact any orthodox Christian doctrine.

We do.

"Nope; that's another one falsely attributed to us."

That's a quite a quote right there.

Alabama358

11-08-2022, 03:15 PM

Roger that. It takes a little knowledge of how Jewish weddings of that day were done to understand that the expectant bride had to stay at home and ready for her coming groom at all times because she wouldn't know the time of his coming.
Well 1Hole... My guess is that you are not a Jew or Hebrew and probably don't have any friends that are traditional Jewish families from Israel nor have you traveled to Israel and done an in depth study on the traditional Jewish wedding.
So I submit that your statement is nothing more then you AGAIN regurgitating someone else's thoughts and trying to make them your own (see Markopolo's Post back on page 3)
It was no surprise that the groom WAS coming and when he did he would then take her back to his father's house to consummate the marriage.

Right again.

Some folk, in their anti-semitic efforts to replace the Jews in God's heart and substitute the massively gentile church, trip over their own feet by trying to force an identical union of Jews and the church in order to eliminate the eternal promises God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; that's a mistake. Yeah you know how those filthy anti-semites are... you know like Paul of Tarsus who wrote...
Philippians 3:5-7
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Paul seems to have a pretty good pedigree as a Hebrew of the Hebrews, so how is it that he could be so anti-semitic writing such things as

Romans 2:11
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Galatians 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

We also need to know that the Bride - the Church - is all believers from Pentecost to the Rapture. That would make Matthew 24: 1-51 a sermon to "The Church" "The Bride" where Christ himself says that he will be back at the mid point of the 7 year period to collect His Saints, The Church, His Bride.

In this historical time frame - this dispensation - we have been made spiritual Jews, with all the benefits therein, but we still are not "the apple of God's eye" Jews with a long list of unique promises from God. We gentiles are adopted/grafted in and are fully loved but we won't be dealt with exactly the same as the bloodline Jews in eternity.

I believe all of that earthly cleaning and renewal work will be going on during the final G.W.Throne court hearings, but that's only my opinion based on the needed sequential timing, I have no scriptural foundation.

Actually, to understand what the “rapture” is, you first need to understand what a traditional Galilee wedding looks like. When the father of the groom finally tells the groom to go get his bride, a procession goes to the brides house where she is “caught up” into a modified chair that is carried in the air to deliver the bride to the grooms house.

Everything that was spoken concerning the rapture and second coming was spoken to the disciples and they understood a Galilee wedding. Jesus spoke to them in terms that they completely understood. That is also why Jesus said “only the Father knows the day and time.” If you understand a Galilee wedding, you know that only the father of the groom knows when everything is in order, the feast is prepared, and can give the command to the groom to go claim his bride.

Nowhere else in the Middle East is a wedding done quite like it is traditionally in Galilee.

Marko

Try to have some original thoughts inspired maybe by the Holy Spirit.
And if you feel the need to post someone else's thoughts, try sticking to scriptures from the Bible and not TikTok or Youtube or something you read in someone else's post. you will seem less like a fraud pushing a false doctrine. SEE ABOVE