How to define the value of an old revolver

[bearbud]

I am trying to understand how to determine the value of an old revolver. This is not for an immediate sale but for an estate reassessment and insurance. The gun in question is a Smith and Wesson .38 M&P model of 1902 first change, 5” target model that was made in 1903-04. The revolver is in original configuration (target sights and the numbered grips) and in good working condition. However the gun has none of the original finish left and appears as in the white. I have the 3rd addition of the S&W standard catalog but it is from 2006 and to complicate things farther, it states that the target model in question is worth two to three times premium.
The question I have is how to go about finding the current value of this revolver? In addition, I also have more of a general question. For a gun that is this old and in this condition (functionally and parts are good but a non- existing finish) what condition category is it falling under? (poor, fair, good, VG, Exc, etc.)
Thanks, Bearbud

[racepres]

Not being a S&W FanBoy, I am watching this.. Gonna say tho... if you want someone to make you an offer... carry this conversation over to the S&W forum...and sit back!!!
BTW; I really Like yer M&P.. I would be a Proud Owner!!!

[cwtebay]

I would start by looking up sales on GunBroker for revolvers in similar condition. Look for actual sold items and how long the listing has been up also. Oftentimes pie in the sky prices are found as long term offerings.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Battis]

Do you know what the original finish was?
The Smith and Wesson forum is the place to go.

[Bigslug]

Per last year's Blue Book (42nd Edition), the price without the target sights premium runs from $200 at 10% to $525 at 50%. They list the premium at "+100%-200% depending on condition", meaning that the 200% would be for knock-your-eyes-out perfect.

Assuming that the gun was originally blued and the metal has deteriorated to that condition, I am VERY dubious about those being the original grips - they don't have anything like the wear the rest of the gun does.

If it's mechanically good, that gun will only really have appeal to a collector who wants to fill that niche and can't find or afford a better one - - however, it's mostly just a shooter grade gun in that shape, and the world is awash in model 10's, 14's, and 15's that are mechanically improved firearms if shooting is your intention.

$400-$500 is my gut feeling.

[reddog81]

I’d say $400 give or take. I’d rate condition as poor based upon appearances. I might be able to be convinced the condition is fair if able to verify it functions and is in good working order. Guns that old and in that condition can have hidden issues.

[rintinglen]

I would grade that as poor to fair; no original finish, after market grips, minor pitting and I would say it's at very most 500 dollars worth of iron, IF everything is functional and no pitting or internal rust in the barrel/cylinder chambers. That is what I would declare the value to be for insurance purposes.

It appears to me that someone took rust remover to it and destroyed what ever bluing remained. The photos aren't the best but it seems as though the caliber stamping on the barrel shows signs of mechanical abrasion(Grinding, sanding, buffing, etc.) Personally, it would have to be much cheaper for me to be a player as a buyer.

However, it is a fact that K-frame 38's of all sorts have escalated dramatically in price, and any shootable 38 Spl. S&W is at least worth $190 and given that this is a rare variation, a beginning or poverty stricken collector might go a bit higher. There's one born every minute.

[murf205]

"I am VERY dubious about those being the original grips - they don't have anything like the wear the rest of the gun does."

You might be right but those guns were offered with hard rubber and wooden stocks and if it was carried in a holster, the finish would take more of a beating than the stocks. You said the grips were numbered. Are they numbered to that gun? That adds $ to the gun especially since it is that old.I believe also that it is in the $400-$500 range. What does the barrel and cylinders look like? A lot of target model guns were/are shot a lot but cleaned and cared for better than tackle box guns. The 1902's had windage only adjustable rear sights, so it could have been a casual shooter, unless of course you know the history of the gun. Does the cylinder stop hand index properly? In other words, is it "in time"?

[JoeJames]

Grips should be numbered to the gun.

[Char-Gar]

For the reasons mentioned above, it has little collectors value. Collectors are looking for revolvers in much higher condition. That said, it might be a good shooter. I said "might" because I would have to have it in my hand to say anything else. As it is I would grade it between "poor" and "paper weight" and worth what you can sell it for.

I have a 1913 Smith and WEsson M & P that has very little finish on it, but otherwise is in fine mechanical condition and a fine shooter. I paid $100.00 for it in an El Paso Pawn shop about 1986.

[Dusty Bannister]

You might be right but those guns were offered with hard rubber and wooden stocks and if it was carried in a holster, the finish would take more of a beating than the stocks.

I will disagree with the above. Holster wear is usual on some contact points of the firearm, such as retaining strap. Carried guns usually get beat up on the exposed side of the grip from banging into doors, car doors and other general encounters with hard objects.

[rintinglen]

Just to go a few steps further and answer the question as to how to value an old revolver, lets consider several factors.

First, manufacturer: is it a "name" manufacturer, ie, S&W, Colt, Remington? Guns made by the big names are always more desirable (and costly) than comparable firearms of the lesser lights. The products of the top of the line manufacturers were usually of better quality. The old saw, "100 year old junk is still junk," has a great deal of truth to it. An Iver Johnson is not worth what a S&W top-break of comparable caliber and age is.

Second is rarity. In this case, S&W made nearly a quarter of a million M&P's by the start of WWI, BUT, only a comparative handful were made as target models. Exactly how many? I have never seen a definitive answer, but at most 20,000, and more probably quite a few less. The fewer that there are, the greater the value, all other things being equal. This rarity gives the target guns the "2 to 3 times" boost in value over the more common fixed sight models. Other factors such as factory engraving, or special order grips, or sights add to the rarity and value (though I must stress the word FACTORY). After market alterations generally devalue a piece, unless you are talking about something like Elmer's No. 5 Colt, which leads to the next consideration.

Association with historical figures. A Colt Army Model in 38 Long Colt is relatively common and consequently cheap. But the one Teddy Roosevelt carried up San Juan Hill is virtually priceless. Guns with provenance showing ownership by old western figures are far more valuable than a similar gun owned by Fred Farmer, the Podunk Constable in some eastern village at the same time.

Another factor is age, which is closely connected to rarity. "They don't make 'em any more," is a fair statement that indicates something is harder to find. And with each passing year, floods, fire, rust and simple use reduce the number available. No matter how well made, tools wear out. And at bottom, firearms are tools. The more time goes by, the fewer the survivors will be. There are fewer surviving 1905 S&W's
than 2005 models, even though the numbers produced might be roughly equal.

Next comes condition. This ranges from New or Mint, down through Perfect, Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair, to Poor. The NRA divides these into "Modern" and "Antique." They differ primarily in degree or amount of finish remaining, but generally, a New, Mint or Perfect model should show absolutely no wear, while a modern gun rated Fair might be considered Good to Very good if considered as an antique. An Antique rated fair would almost certainly be rated Poor, if considered as a modern gun. And what is antique? Generally, the division used by the GCA of 1968, of pre-and post 1898 is considered the dividing line.

Finally, there is "buyers preference" S&W made far fewer Target Model 32-20's than they did Triple Locks. But a good, clean Triple Lock will go for at least twice what a comparable Target grade 32-20 will. Like wise, a Registered 357 will usually cost more than a pre-war 38 Special Outdoorsman in the same condition. This despite the fact that there were nearly a third more Magnums produced than the less-powerful Outdoorsman. Colts and Winchesters are more sought after than contemporary Marlins and Remingtons. Martial bolt actions are more valued than comparable, contemporary, civilian guns, even though rarity might suggest otherwise.

To boil it down to essentials, though, all else aside, rarity and condition are the decisive elements to consider when pricing two different guns of the same manufacture.

[bearbud]

Thank you all very much for the great information. This is exactly what I was looking for and I will use the value you suggested.
Just to get a better understanding of this particular gun, I have the following question. Some of you have suggested (and probably rightfully so), that the grips on the gun are not original. I was under the impression that since the grips are checkered hard rubber with the S&W monogram (per the catalog), and are engraved with the gun’s serial number, they are original. Was my assumption incorrect? The picture below shows the grips and the gun. It also shows some of the original bluing that is left under the grips. I apologize for the marginal pictures but any better quality pictures I attempted to load didn’t work. Bearbud298730

[JoeJames]

One big point that is a plus - the grips are not chipped. They are generally pretty high. Might check on ebay to see what the grips alone would go for.

[rintinglen]

On the only pre-war (WW I) S&W's I own, the serial number is stamped, However, mine both have walnut grips.

It may be that the hard rubber grips were etched and not stamped to prevent breakage, or the markings may have been added later. I am still skeptical at the disparity of wear between the metal work and the grips. However, it is possible that a previous owner may have swapped a pair of grips that he liked better for these and then the originals were later restored after the replacements had seen the rough service that had put so much wear and tear on the rest of the gun.

[bearbud]

Making this revolver a parts gun crossed my mind. Some of the older parts like the grips, rear sight and the trigger spring can bring some cash. It probably can generate more money in parts than the $400-500 value of the gun. I just can’t bring myself to butcher this old revolver. The explanation of the grips condition makes sense to me and I will go with it. I have several pre WWI S&Ws and the grip numbering to the gun appear in several ways: stamping, engraving and even pencil. Thank you all again for the information you provided and your insight. Bearbud

[FergusonTO35]

Nearly all my guns have their value in usefulness rather than dollar figures. My well travelled S&W 10-5 is probably worth $300.00 retail locally, however it shoots so well for me that someone would have to offer alot more before I would sell it. I have an ugly 1980's Winchester 94 that loves Lee 170 grain slugs and is mechanically excellent. I finally have it lined out just the way I like it, and to induce me to sell would cost someone alot more than the $200.00 I paid to rescue it from a pawn shop

[TCLouis]

Looking at the bluing (what's left) on the grip frame and then no bluing on the rest of the gun, I'm thinking someone purposely removed the bluing from the gun.
I had an OLD Blackhawk like that, guessing they were trying to make it look like SS.

[charlie b]

IIRC, for insurance you need an independent assessment, in writing. If not, the insurance company can go to their own sources to determine current value in the event of loss.

If you attach a rider to your policy for specific items (some ins companies require this for firearms and jewelry) then you are paying according the value you declare.

Not sure if either of these apply to your current insurance policy so you need to do some research on it and possibly contact them for advice on how to proceed.