Can I add .010 diameter with a paper patch ?

[Jedman]

I have a antique rifle that I am trying to make some shootable ammo for. After slugging the bore I find it has 3 lands and grooves and the groove diameter is .330- .331 hard to measure with 3 grooves .
The rifling is approximately 1-22” so I need to keep the boolit fairly short as the cartridge case is only a little over 1” long. The closest boolit I can find to use is a .321 dia. 150 gr. and wanted to know how many wraps it would take to get this up to .331 and would this work ?
I have never done any paper patching before but this is really just a experiment to see if I can make ammo that will shoot for a 160 year old rifle .
If your wondering about where I am going to get the right size rimfire brass for this, I am working on that also using cut down 32-20 with a rimfire blank installed in the bottom.

So can a bollit be wrapped with 3 or 4 wraps to get what I need and will it fly off after leaving the muzzle ?

Also the .321 bullets I have are already lubed, can I wrap over the lubed grooves or does it have to be removed ?

Thanks, Jedman

[BP Dave]

A couple wraps of 20 pound (printer) paper ought to be close--that paper is about .0038 thick, and when you're calculating the increase in diameter you double that number for each layer of wrap, so two wraps on your .321 bullet would be about .336 in diameter. I suspect you may encounter complications if you start going thicker than two layers of wrap.

Perhaps the easiest approach would be to wrap a few bullets with different papers and measure them.

Have fun--

--DJ

[cwtebay]

What cartridge are you working on? Many (most?) of the rimfire rifle cartridges would have used a heeled bullet, so paper patching would be quite problematic with that design. Have you thought of bumping them up a bit?

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[Nobade]

A 1:22" is not going to stabilize a 150 grain 32 caliber bullet. I'd look at something in the neighborhood of 110 grains. Basically a 32-20. But yes, I use 15# green bar printer paper to add .011" to a bullet. For example my 32 special gets .314" bullets and after patching they come out at .325", perfect to fit in the case. I would add to the above, if you mention what cartridge you're working with you may get some good suggestions on how to proceed.

[Jedman]

The cartridge is a mystery as to what it is. The rifle is a early Allen & Wheelock falling block rifle that I will call a sporting rifle. It is really petite it looks and feels like a 22 rifle. Doing a lot of research online about all I can find is Allen and Wheelock built pistols and revolver just before the Civil War and they made their own proprietary ammo that was called lip fire. It was a copper case with just a small protrusion at the base of the case and had to be indexed properly to line up with the hammer to fire. From what I can find online they made cartridges in 25, 36,38 and 44 cal. lip fire cartridges and have seen where where some articles say there was a 32 cal. ? When it comes to their rifles the information seems unreliable.
My rifle is in fine condition and has a pristine bore. I have done a chamber cast and what I find is puzzling as I assumed they loaded the cartridges with heeled bullets but the chamber cast shows the chamber measures .3475 for about 1.090 “ and then the rifling starts without any leade I can measure and the best measurement I can come up with is the bore is .323 and the groove about .331 so I don’t know if that’s a 32 cal. 36 cal. or something that I haven’t found any mention of.
As far as the 1- 22 “ twist the .321 cast bullets I have are .770 long and according to several bullet stabilization charts online it is in the ideal range for a SG of 1.40 so the bullet should be stabile at that size and diameter.

The reason it doesn’t seem that A & W loaded the cartridges with heeled bullets is if the bullet were the same size as the OD of the case the bullet would be about .344 which would be much to large. But if I were to paper patch the .321 bullets and the patch would cover the full bearing surface of the bullet I would need to put the bullet quite deep into the brass and the powder capacity would be very small ?

Another strange Idea I was contemplating was can I Paper patch a jacketed bullet ? I can get PPU jacketed bullets made for the 8 mm KURZ that are pointed .323 dia and have a boat tail and are only 124 gr. bullets that are short ? That would give me the ability to use more of the powder capacity and the nose would not be touching the grooves when chambered.

I also have a thread about this in the bollit exchange forum now.

I am open to any ideas anyone has !

Jedman

[cwtebay]

Oh, very cool!
Allen and Wheelock had their own version of 32 RF that took the place of their original lip fire cartridge. I do not think that I have ever seen an example.
I wonder if it would be the same dimensions as the lip fire variety?
Have you slugged the bore?
Another possibility would be an 8.xxxmm non-US rimfire?
Sounds like a fun project, looking forward to hearing how it goes.

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[Lead pot]

Jedman,

There a couple things you can do to make your existing bullet the diameter you need.
Yes you can make a triple wrap but use thin paper. I have a mould that drops an undersized bullet and I triple wrap it. I use a paper from Southworth that is a typewriter copy paper that is .0014-5" thick depending where you measure and there are other onion skin papers you can use. It will shred just as well as a double wrap.
You can also knurl that bullet and raise the diameter to what you need. You can dip that bullet in melted lube and use it like a GG if you like or wrap it with paper.
If you don't have a knurling roller you can use a file like a file you would use on aluminum or a rasp if you want an aggressive knurl. Or you can use a double cut file.
Bumping up bullets is never a good way and expect anything with good results, and don't let anyone discourage you for patching a healed or a rebadged boat tailed bullet. They patch just fine and fly very well patched, :D
Chances are you will not shoot this little cartridge over 100 yards to often. It will shoot just fine with a triple wrap using thin paper or even parchment paper with a double wrap.
A soft lead patched bullet will fill the grooves a few thousands under bore diameter.
Enjoy that piece of history.



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[Jedman]

298688298689I have come up with a couple other ideas for the bullet. One is I have some cast .338 cal bollits that have a bore riding nose that is about the right diameter and I am thinking I can cut the nose off in the lathe and add lube grooves or a crimp groove for the small amount that I will probably need.

The second idea is there is a member who has offered to cast me some of the Lee bollits for a 8 x 56 R that would have a shank of .330 + and I could cut the nose off and load them backwards without the gas check and have a short boolit with lube grooves.

Where there is a will there’s a way ! The longer you think on this stuff more ideas come .

Keep them coming!

Jedman

[Lead pot]

Call Tom at Accurate moulds and have him make you a proper bullet. He might even already have one logged.

[Jedman]

Thanks , Lead pot. I will try the knurling on the one type of smooth sided boolit then will try paper patching the grease grooved boolits.
I don’t really want to invest in a custom mold for this project as first I will not shoot it much because it has iron sights and I can only shoot short distances in bright light and I detest cleaning black powder guns.
It’s a really nice antique and I want to make it go bang but I wount shoot it very much.

I appreciate your information and I will try all of the ideas once I get my brass modified for the rimfire blanks and make some loading tools.

Jedman

[Harter66]

Have you considered a round ball just to see ?
00B is .330 (I think) , 0000B .360 and 000B someplace in the middle . A 0000B will make a 1r plain base with a 1dia grip length .

[Jedman]

Have you considered a round ball just to see ?
00B is .330 (I think) , 0000B .360 and 000B someplace in the middle . A 0000B will make a 1r plain base with a 1dia grip length .

Sorry , I don’t follow what you are telling me. I have thought of making a push thru sizing die and use larger pure lead round balls and reduce the diameter to what works for me.

Jedman

[kaiser]

Ross Seyfried wrote about paper patching for obsolete calibers back in the eighties. I've used his method of patching .308 (30 cal) jacketed bullets for a Drilling of .318 diameter by: cutting "medium" weight "Bond" typing paper in strips the length to make two wraps around the bullet. After the wrap I would "twist the tails" hanging over the base and dip them in a saucer pan of water and set them aside to dry. After drying, I would then "snip" the "tails" off and put them in a butter dish with Lee liquid Alox and coat them; then set them aside to dry. I lastly loaded them with a standard load of powder and primer as I usually used for that weight of bullet. Shooting them in a .318 bore Drilling was of great value until I finally was able to procure a proper mold and a supply of .318 jacketed bullets. (My description is only a summary taken from Seyfried's notes - your experience my differ!) I used 180gr, 30 caliber bullets, which was lighter than the standard 196gr load for a 8X57jr, so I would be assured of staying below the maximum allowed pressure for an old 1930's era firearm. It turned out to be accurate and shot POI after a relatively short work up period.

[Milky Duck]

I was about to ask a similar question.... this thread sort of answers it.
can I patch a .44 Calibre projectile in order to load it in a .45/70????
want to try it to get lighter loads as I have some .44cal cast on hand and no lighter .45 calibre
its single shot break open and loads will be on lighter scale power level wise.

[Lead pot]

Yes a .44 projectile at .446" can be patched to the .450 bore but you will have to use thin paper and maybe push the patched bullet through a .450" sizing die if you want to shallow seat it. I don't like a unpatched bullet .004" under bore because even using a paper .0015" will change the seating depth because it will be over bore diameter unless you size it or seat it deeper. Either way wont hurt doing this.

[Milky Duck]

thankyou,will squirrel this one away for rainy day ,then give it a go.