.44-40 lessons learned

[Thundermaker]

I've been shooting black powder for the majority of my life, but this is my first time loading it in a cartridge. This is also my first time loading .44-40, which has its own little quirks. I've learned a number of things concerning the cartridge, rcbs dies, and Winchester/miroku rifles. I thought I'd document them here. This might be "duh" material for some of you, but here it is.

Lessons learned:

1. You really can't get away with the stock expander plug in an RCBS die set if you're using bullets larger than .427. I'm using .430s. They further expand the neck, and, due to the thin case neck, it is nearly impossible to seat them perfectly straight. They will bulge the case neck on one side just about every time, at least with winchester brass (which, I grant you, is significantly thinner than Remington or starline). I'll be calling RCBS about a .429 plug. See pic below for reference.

2. You can cram 40 grains of 2f Sheutzen in a modern .44-40 case, but you really need to use a compression die of some sort, as opposed to using the bullet to compress the powder. I did it, but the nose of the bullet was deformed by the seating plug, which leads me to the next lesson.

3. The bullet seating plug in RCBS dies just isn't shaped right. I don't know what kind of bullet it is made for. The way it deformed the bullet looks like it was made for some sort of round nose. Even when I dropped to 35 grains for subsequent loads (giving about 1/8" compression) it still deformed the edges of the meplat. The bullets are cast from wheel weights but not water dropped. See pic below for reference.

4. The new Winchester/miroku '92s have very generous chambers. Even with a .430 bullet and the bulge in the neck, the rounds still drop right in.


Here is the one round I loaded with 40 grains. It displays all the issues.

298580

[HWooldridge]

Yes, all true. My RCBS dies are about 45 years old and have a .427 expander. I do seat .429 bullets and set them by eye without too much trouble - but - I did turn the end of the plug back a bit so the tip of the bullet touches. I also expand the cases mouths more than most people but I also anneal necks every 2-3 reloading cycles. One of these days, I may make another seater to exactly fit the John Kort design I use but it works well enough for now.

I fill sized and primed 44-40 cases to the top with 3Fg BP then I compress that with a dedicated plug die. As you noted, the bullet is way too soft to mash the powder. That’s still not 40 grs in modern cases - more like 37-38.

Both of my older 44-40 rifles have .427 bores but they like .429 pills from 12 BHN lead.

[greenjoytj]

Buffalo Arms Co (BACO) custom made my powder compression plug threaded to fit my expander die.
I like a flat surface bullet seater for my flat nose bullets.

If your bullet seater is embossing a circular mark on you bullet that a signal you trying to compress too much powder with the bullet and it time to use a dedicated compression plug.
Not sure if you could use a compression plug as a bullet seating plug, dual purpose?

I believe trying to put 40 gr of powder into a modern solid head case is equivalent to putting ~43 gr into a old original 1873 era case.
36 to 37 gr today would equal the old 40 gr pressure wise due to the smaller volume of space under the bullet in a modern cases with thicker side walls and solid head.


What your bullet? Does you bullet carry enough lube for your barrel length?

[Hick]

I think I remember reading somewhere that the cases that took 40 grains of Black Powder were balloon head cases. That's why only around 37-38 grains works in modern cases. Can't remember where I read it so I might be wrong.

[Randy Bohannon]

I have two of the Win/Miroku 1873 rifles both in 44/40/WCF and have been two of the easiest rifles to get excellent accuracy from . Accurate mould #423-215C has been a amazingly accurate bullet out to 200 yards with 37 grains of O.E. or Swiss 1.5 .bullet sizing has been dependent on the brass used .429” RP brass, .430” WW brass,alloy is RotoMetals 16:1 , lube 50/50 Olive oil beeswax with some SPG added when it’s on sale.
Savvy Jack on this forum and a deceased member John Korth have done yeomans work with the 44-40 WCF cartridge.

All of your observations are valid for first time B/P cartridge loading I had the benefit of doing other B/P cartridges before the 44-40 WCF. I was set up pretty good to get good results out of the gate.

[Thundermaker]

If your bullet seater is embossing a circular mark on you bullet that a signal you trying to compress too much powder with the bullet and it time to use a dedicated compression plug.
Not sure if you could use a compression plug as a bullet seating plug, dual purpose?

I believe trying to put 40 gr of powder into a modern solid head case is equivalent to putting ~43 gr into a old original 1873 era case.
36 to 37 gr today would equal the old 40 gr pressure wise.

What your bullet? Does you bullet carry enough lube for your barrel length?

It's not embossing a circular mark. It's rounding the nose off. My bullet is John Kort's design, the 43-215c from accurate. If you know what that bullet looks like, you can see the deformation in the picture I posted. It's rounding the corners of the meplat. It even does it with 35 grains, just not as much.

40 grains works fine in these Winchester cases. I just need a compression die. Funny thing is, I'm using a lee hand press to load these. Even at 40 grains, I was able to squeeze the handles together with one hand to seat the bullet. The handles on that thing actually have some give in them, but they didn't even flex. Maybe I just don't know my own strength, but I'm thinking a properly shaped seater would solve the issue.

As for the seater, my rcbs .45acp dies came with two different seating plugs. One is for round nose. The other is for flat nose. I don't know why they didn't do that for these dies. At the very least, you'd think they'd put a flat one in there, since .44-40 is a levergun cartridge, and 99.99% of people are going to be loading flat point bullets.

In any case, I'm going to use a compression die from now on.

As for the bullet seating, part of the problem is that I ran them through the sizing die first to straighten out a bunch of deformed necks. That RCBS die really squeezes the necks down, maybe too much. That is probably the last time these cases will see a sizing die unless they get deformed or hard to chamber. From now on, it's just seat and crimp.

[Don McDowell]

You can use the expander die to compress the powder. Another possibility is maybe going back and rechecking that the crimp isn't a bit much, back the seating die off an 1/8 of a turn and make sure you're not trying to finish seating the bullet after the bullet is crimped.
The 3 original wcf cases are relatively thin in the case mouth and it doesn't take much to bugger them up in the reloading process.

[sharps4590]

First, my RCBS dies for the 44-40 are new. Secondly, I've been loading BPC's since the early 80's and never found cramming the old powder charges into new cases either beneficial or accurate. I've never experienced any of the difficulties mentioned for my '73 Uberti/Cimmaron. I'm shooting the Lee bullet at .429.

[Finster101]

RCBS makes a set of 44-40 dies for cowboy action. They are geared more toward lead bullets. It has a larger expander plug I believe. I will measure mine later today and post the findings. You may be able to order that expander plug separately.

[indian joe]

First, my RCBS dies for the 44-40 are new. Secondly, I've been loading BPC's since the early 80's and never found cramming the old powder charges into new cases either beneficial or accurate. I've never experienced any of the difficulties mentioned for my '73 Uberti/Cimmaron. I'm shooting the Lee bullet at .429.

I like the look of that LEE boolit (and the price of the mold) but never been able to get enough lube on it to work well with Blackpowder - must be our dry climate and your humidity makes the difference ?

can get 40 grains into a modern case so long as use a 200grain boolit and a compression die - "beneficial or accurate" ? shoot it and see answers that - my take is if accuracy is maintained then we get the benefit of increased velocity, which leads on to improved boolit stability at longer ranges ?

Some fellers like to go full throttle others like to pussyfoot around - having fun? then its all good!

[HWooldridge]

I like the look of that LEE boolit (and the price of the mold) but never been able to get enough lube on it to work well with Blackpowder - must be our dry climate and your humidity makes the difference ?

can get 40 grains into a modern case so long as use a 200grain boolit and a compression die - "beneficial or accurate" ? shoot it and see answers that - my take is if accuracy is maintained then we get the benefit of increased velocity, which leads on to improved boolit stability at longer ranges ?

Some fellers like to go full throttle others like to pussyfoot around - having fun? then its all good!

FYI, the 43-215C Kort bullet design from Accurate has a big lube groove just for black powder - and it also works just fine with smokeless. The little bit of extra lube applied might make a difference in yield over thousands of bullets but the performance outweighs the loss.

[Thundermaker]

You can use the expander die to compress the powder. Another possibility is maybe going back and rechecking that the crimp isn't a bit much, back the seating die off an 1/8 of a turn and make sure you're not trying to finish seating the bullet after the bullet is crimped.
The 3 original wcf cases are relatively thin in the case mouth and it doesn't take much to bugger them up in the reloading process.

I'm crimping as a separate step with the Lee factory crimp die.

[Thundermaker]

RCBS makes a set of 44-40 dies for cowboy action. They are geared more toward lead bullets. It has a larger expander plug I believe. I will measure mine later today and post the findings. You may be able to order that expander plug separately.

That's what I'm looking into. The plug in my set measures .425". RCBS has always been good to me. Their customer service seems to like serving customers. What a novel idea, huh?

[Nobade]

My RCBS die set is fairly old, early 1970's. The expander plug is .428" and works just fine with .430" bullets. I just started playing with 44-40, wanting to resurrect my Dad's '73 carbine that hadn't been fired during my 60 year lifetime. He had told me when I was a kid that he thought it was worn out since it was not accurate. I got a good look at it, and didn't see anything really wrong so gathered what I needed to shoot it. I already had a NOE blackpowder mould, 200 grains with a big groove so used that. 2.2cc of powder or about 33 grains fit comfortably with a bit of compression so that was the load. The first three shots hit 6 inches high at 50 yards and centered, with a group about an inch. I guess he had tried shooting it with factory smokeless ammo since it worked just fine with mine. I don't see any need to try to put more powder in it and make things hard on myself. If I feel I need more velocity, a couple grains of smokeless powder will take care of that and I can use even less black. So far this project is a lot of fun and maybe I'll even be able to get a deer with it this year to remember Dad.

[sharps4590]

I don't know where you are joe but, we assuredly don't lack for humidity. That 3 extra grs. of black might give you 20 fps. I have tried the full, compressed loads in several cartridges. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have offered my experience and opinion. If you like it, that's fine but, over almost 40 years of working with 20-25 different BPC cartridges, rifle and revolver, foreign and domestic, I've never seen it worth the effort or extra powder, not for such minimal returns.

Thinking back, I don't remember what I did with the Lee bullet, whether I used a grease cookie or not. I know I didn't with any revolvers but, I might have with a rifle, for the reason you mentioned....it's been a while.

[Larry Gibson]

I have the RCBS "Cowboy" 44-40 dies and have no problems loading softer cast [20 or 16 -1 alloy] which are sized .429 or .430.

[Texas by God]

Barely above no experience loading BP here; but I have a question. Why FFG? Is it more consistent than FFFG? Well, actually another question. Would a TL design hold enough Lube to use with black powder?

[Outpost75]

Barely above no experience loading BP here; but I have a question. Why FFG? Is it more consistent than FFFG? Well, actually another question. Would a TL design hold enough Lube to use with black powder?

I use 3Fg Goex only because that is what I can get. If better quality powder like Swiss or KIK 2Fg would be powder of choice.

TL design bullets do not hold enough lube for black. I use John Kort design Accurate 43-215C with 50-50 olive oil beeswax. Proven combination.

[Thundermaker]

I used 2F because I have a lot of it.

[Nobade]

Barely above no experience loading BP here; but I have a question. Why FFG? Is it more consistent than FFFG? Well, actually another question. Would a TL design hold enough Lube to use with black powder?

Because it works better in larger cartridges than finer powder. I'll use 3f in the 32-20 and smaller, otherwise 2f until I get to the really big rifle cartridges then I switch to 1f.

[greenjoytj]

There the how and why of working better.
2fg courser granulation makes for a slower build up of gas pressure which the long barrel of a rifle can take advantage of to get more velocity.

2fg fired in the short barrel of a revolver shows a lot more still burning (gas making) powder being ejected uselessly into the atmosphere.

3fg makes the revolver MV a little higher as more powder gets burned in the short barrel.

No matter the powder granulation size, the total gas volume produced will be the same for the same mass weight (not volume) of powder. There is just a faster gas creation (release) with the finer powder granulation.
The quicker burn time will spike chamber pressure higher with the finer powder granulation which makes more MV in the short barrel pistol.

[greenjoytj]

It's not embossing a circular mark. It's rounding the nose off. My bullet is John Kort's design, the 43-215c from accurate. It's rounding the corners of the meplat. It even does it with 35 grains, just not as much.
40 grains works fine in these Winchester cases. I just need a compression die. Funny thing is, I'm using a lee hand press to load these. Even at 40 grains, I was able to squeeze the handles together with one hand to seat the bullet. The handles on that thing actually have some give in them, but they didn't even flex. Maybe I just don't know my own strength, but I'm thinking a properly shaped seater would solve the issue.
As for the seater, my rcbs .45acp dies came with two different seating plugs. One is for round nose. The other is for flat nose. I don't know why they didn't do that for these dies. At the very least, you'd think they'd put a flat one in there, since .44-40 is a levergun cartridge, and 99.99% of people are going to be loading flat point bullets.

In any case, I'm going to use a compression die from now on.

As for the bullet seating, part of the problem is that I ran them through the sizing die first to straighten out a bunch of deformed necks. That RCBS die really squeezes the necks down, maybe too much. That is probably the last time these cases will see a sizing die unless they get deformed or hard to chamber. From now on, it's just seat and crimp.

You may not feel you are squeezing the press handles too hard but the press provides mechanical advantage through the length of the lever arms.
The fact the flat nose your bullet was made to flow like putty into a slightly rounded dome shows the stress place on the bullet alloy was enough to modify its shape.
I have no doubt you could compress down even more than 40 gr with the press advantage.
Even with solid flat nose bullet seater if your alloy is soft enough you could be expanding the width of the bullet ogive, the lead has to flow some where if it can’t be just easily push down.
A compression plug or powder quantity reduction will help.
I measure the length of my bullet shank and use a compression plug to squash the powder down the needed distance plus a couple thou to account for slight case length variations.
The tail of the verniers caliper can be pushed onto the compacted surface of the powder column to take more measurements to fine tune the bullet seating depth.

[Don McDowell]

Barely above no experience loading BP here; but I have a question. Why FFG? Is it more consistent than FFFG? Well, actually another question. Would a TL design hold enough Lube to use with black powder?

I use 3f Olde Eynsford in the wcf cartridges and the 45 colt, because that's what my rifles and wheel guns tell me they like the best. 2f works, but as in anything reloading the gun and the target will tell the tale. With the exception of when loading blackpowder the fouling is the other thing that matters. My 44 wcf's also really like a .40 caliber dry lubed felt wad from Muzzleloader Originals under the bullet.
The tumble lube bullets might hold enough quality lube to be alright in a handgun, but would likely create some nasty fouling and leading problems in a rifle. My go to lube is Bullshop NASA, or SPG.

[Chill Wills]

A shop made expander can be had in any size you want. No sales on here, so if interested, send me a PM for who to contact.

[HWooldridge]

I can't see how the difference between 1F, 2F or 3F will be very discernible in a cartridge application if you are essentially compressing the powder into a solid pellet on the loading press. I have experimented with compression amounts by using a couple of cases that had no primer, and dug out the powder afterwards. A portion of the charge may still be granulated but most of it comes out in chunks, and takes quite a bit of effort to remove all of the pack. Of course, I'm usually striving for around 5/16' of depth from a loosely filled case.

Muzzle loaders or cap and ball revolvers will see more of a change from grain size because the loads are less compressed.

[Savvy Jack]

I can't see how the difference between 1F, 2F or 3F will be very discernible in a cartridge application if you are essentially compressing the powder into a solid pellet on the loading press. I have experimented with compression amounts by using a couple of cases that had no primer, and dug out the powder afterwards. A portion of the charge may still be granulated but most of it comes out in chunks, and takes quite a bit of effort to remove all of the pack. Of course, I'm usually striving for around 5/16' of depth from a loosely filled case.

Muzzle loaders or cap and ball revolvers will see more of a change from grain size because the loads are less compressed.


That is because when the powder is compressed, Winchester compressed their powder between .17" to .21", only the powder closest to the mouth is compressed. The powder on down into the case and down at the primer are not compressed. Both John Kort and myself have dissected quite a few original cartridges to discover such applications. John described the powder as a "mixture" of FFg and FFFg of which he said was an original type of black "sporting" powder at one time.

I have pressure tested a few black powder cartridge loads and the results will surprise you. I know folks don't like clicking external links but I am not going to repost the data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZyKKXVyHq9as9uFJiko5yReJ9a-ER32YsENTgJGJs4/edit#gid=598633334

The difference between original factory loads and early hand loads was a bit different but Winchester claimed handloads with their swaged bullets or even unlubed cast bullets.... "For ordinary use, however, it is found that the cast bullets will answer".~ Winchester's 1875 catalog

The quality of black powder is important. Problem #1 is when 40gr by volume does not weigh 40gr. It's like trying to use regular car gas in NASCAR race cars and expecting racing performance. Folks substitute FFFG to make up for the power loss by lack of quality and reduction of grains used.

When using larger .429 to .430 cast bullets, the RCB "Cowboy" were designed for those larger diameter bullets.

John Kort's 43-215C with the large lube groove has proven itself as an accurate black powder bullet out to 300 meters when the handloader does his part.

Take an old 44-40 .427" expander plug and grind the tip flat and very slightly chamfer the edge, cut an old die body so the plug sticks way down below so you can see it.....now you have a powder compression die....mark it for your desired compression depth needed to finger seat the bullet. Between the bullet sitting firmly on top of the powder, neck retention is not needed much except to help control the burn rate along with the bullet crimp. For bullets that do not have a roll crimp, the Redding 44-40 profile crimp die is far superior than anything else.

I just added some 44-40 handloading pages to the 44-40 website.

Introduction - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction
Bullet Selection - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/handloading/bullet-profiles-and-chamber-issues
Brass Cases and Chambering issues - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/handloading/brass-cases
Primer Issues - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/handloading/primers
Die Set Selections - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/handloading/die-sets
Redding Profile Crimp Die Use - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/handloading/die-sets/redding-profile-crimp-die
Other Issues - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/handloading/crimpingcrumpledbuckled-case-issues

If you want to load the 44-40 to 44 Henry ballistics, then keep using modern load data. If you want true 44-40 original performance, use good quality black powder like Swiss or Olde Enysford. For smokeless powder loads, use slower burning rifle powders. Leave the faster burning pistol powders for revolver loads.

With the help of a lot of people, the site is continuing to shape up.


Thundermaker, as far as the side bulge when seating the bullet, get the Lyman "M" die for the 44-40 (.427-.428" bullets) and the 44 Magnum "M" plug (.429 to .430" bullets). You will thank yourself later. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/handloading/die-sets

Read this from John Kort for black powder shooting: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/contributors/john-kort/two-peas-in-a-pod-by-john-kort

And congratulations for entering the wild world of the extremely multi-faceted 44-40!!!!!

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/introduction

[indian joe]

FYI, the 43-215C Kort bullet design from Accurate has a big lube groove just for black powder - and it also works just fine with smokeless. The little bit of extra lube applied might make a difference in yield over thousands of bullets but the performance outweighs the loss.

Mate I was replying to post #8 which I did include to avoid confusion

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Savvy Jack;5385654]That is because when the powder is compressed, Winchester compressed their powder between .17" to .21", only the powder closest to the mouth is compressed. The powder on down into the case and down at the primer are not compressed. Both John Kort and myself have dissected quite a few original cartridges to discover such applications. John described the powder as a "mixture" of FFg and FFFg of which he said was an original type of black "sporting" powder at one time.

I have pressure tested a few black powder cartridge loads and the results will surprise you. I know folks don't like clicking external links but I am not going to repost the data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZyKKXVyHq9as9uFJiko5yReJ9a-ER32YsENTgJGJs4/edit#gid=598633334

Bryan have you figured out whats the reason for the jump in pressure (and velocity) with those old cases? (semi balloon head - the last few on the chart) would think it must be something to do with better (quicker) ignition due to the primer pocket protruding into the base of the charge - but that is no more than a guess. ?

absolutely agree with you on compression - different effect down the charge - and longer skinnier the case the more the difference, say a 38/55 - bottleneck cases moreso different again - my 45/75 shouts this out.

[Savvy Jack]

[QUOTE=Savvy Jack;5385654]That is because when the powder is compressed, Winchester compressed their powder between .17" to .21", only the powder closest to the mouth is compressed. The powder on down into the case and down at the primer are not compressed. Both John Kort and myself have dissected quite a few original cartridges to discover such applications. John described the powder as a "mixture" of FFg and FFFg of which he said was an original type of black "sporting" powder at one time.

I have pressure tested a few black powder cartridge loads and the results will surprise you. I know folks don't like clicking external links but I am not going to repost the data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZyKKXVyHq9as9uFJiko5yReJ9a-ER32YsENTgJGJs4/edit#gid=598633334

Bryan have you figured out whats the reason for the jump in pressure (and velocity) with those old cases? (semi balloon head - the last few on the chart) would think it must be something to do with better (quicker) ignition due to the primer pocket protruding into the base of the charge - but that is no more than a guess. ?

absolutely agree with you on compression - different effect down the charge - and longer skinnier the case the more the difference, say a 38/55 - bottleneck cases moreso different again - my 45/75 shouts this out.

I am thinking maybe it is from a better initial burn rate from the powder wrapping around the primer pocket. As the pockets got smaller, the pressures lowered and velocities decreased. That is solely based on my "paper trail".

[Thundermaker]

Got everything sorted now, thanks to Chill Willis. Load testing to follow.

[Chill Wills]

Got everything sorted now, thanks to Chill Willis. Load testing to follow.

A custom two diameter expander for the larger bullet plus a die body to put it in and a custom flat nose bullet seating stem for the flat nosed bullet addressed the issues.

I am glad it works now.

[Thundermaker]

I installed the new expander in the RCBS expander die. I'm using the old .425 expander plug in the blank die body as a compression die. The seating plug works like a charm.

I showed up to the cowboy match, and nobody else did. I decided that, since I had made the drive to the range, I would shoot the rifle.

Here are the results.

35grains of schuetzen 2F gave 1020 fps, give or take a few fps.

40 grains of the same gave 1080.

Schuetzen is known to be about the least powerful of the powder brands, and these results were about what I was expecting, considering Mr. Kort's tests. I may try some with 3F to see if that gains me anything, but I doubt it. Still, a 215gr bullet at 1080fps will take down most things in my neck of the woods.

Shooting was done at 50 yards. The first group was about 2.5". I don't think that's too bad, considering that I charged the cases from a handheld powder measure without weighing anything. I fired 75 rounds over the course of the day, mostly plinking. I fired a final 10-shot group just to see if there was any accuracy loss. That group is pictured below.

299126

I did notice something strange. For the first few loadings, I had a little lube on the muzzle. By the time I fired that last group, the muzzle was dry. When I loaded the ammo, I loaded half of them the same day I lubed the bullets. Something came up, so I didn't get to load the other half until a few days later. The bullets sat in an open bowl. Is it possible that the lube dried out a bit in that time and became less effective? It might also have something to do with the way I lubed them. I just rubbed them with a stick of lube to fill the grooves. I have since procured tubing of a proper size to make a cutter, and the next batch of bullets will be properly pan-lubed.

I'm amazed at how well the brass seals the chamber, even at black powder pressures. There's no fouling anywhere in the gun except the bore, and you wouldn't know that the brass had been fired unless you looked inside it. I'm really glad I got the gun in .44-40 instead of 45colt.

[HWooldridge]

Good shooting, and 44 WCF brass seals the chamber much better than 45 Colt. Almost like it was designed for it…wink, wink.

[Savvy Jack]

I did notice something strange. For the first few loadings, I had a little lube on the muzzle. By the time I fired that last group, the muzzle was dry. When I loaded the ammo, I loaded half of them the same day I lubed the bullets. Something came up, so I didn't get to load the other half until a few days later. The bullets sat in an open bowl. Is it possible that the lube dried out a bit in that time and became less effective? It might also have something to do with the way I lubed them. I just rubbed them with a stick of lube to fill the grooves. I have since procured tubing of a proper size to make a cutter, and the next batch of bullets will be properly pan-lubed.

I'm amazed at how well the brass seals the chamber, even at black powder pressures. There's no fouling anywhere in the gun except the bore, and you wouldn't know that the brass had been fired unless you looked inside it. I'm really glad I got the gun in .44-40 instead of 45colt.

You are using the 215C right? If so, there should be plenty of lube to shoot at least 50 rounds without any loss of accuracy or build up of crud. More than likely the problem is the type lube...I forget the details you posted earlier...or your results are normal after shooting nearly 80 rounds.

Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.

[Thundermaker]

Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.

Yes, but I'm using a bullet that's .001" over groove, so there's no need for any obturation to seal the bore. It could just be inconsistencies in powder charges. As I said, I used a handheld measure and didn't weigh anything. Even that last group isn't bad, other than 2 fliers.

The lube is good, I think. When I went to clean it, a dry patch got most of the fouling, and it was all pretty greasy. followed that up with two wet patches. The second came out clean. The bore was shiny, and I couldn't see anything in the grooves. Finished up with ballistol.

[Thundermaker]

Little update.

I didn't resize the brass after the last firing. I just ran it through the expader to knock what was left of the crimp out. I am now loading 35grains Sheutzen 2f. I'm using the compression plug made from the old undersized expander. I was really surprised how solid that mass of powder gets. I set the compression die so that the thumb seated bullet stops on the powder with the crimp groove at the case mouth. I'm using the crimp function of the seater die to roll crimp.

[Thundermaker]

Update. Now that I've been shooting the gun for a while, I've gotten the lube worked out.

So far, the best 100 yard group I've gotten is about 5". I'm starting to wonder if the twist rate is the issue. The gun has a 1:36 twist. The highest velocity I can get with Scheutzen is 1080fps. Perhaps that simply isn't enough velocity to properly stabilize my 215gr bullet with the slow twist. I have acquired some Swiss. I'll have to test it next trip.

[Randy Bohannon]

Give that Swiss 3F a go ,groups will get better with a bit more velocity .

[indian joe]

I think I remember reading somewhere that the cases that took 40 grains of Black Powder were balloon head cases. That's why only around 37-38 grains works in modern cases. Can't remember where I read it so I might be wrong.

you can get 40 grains in if you use a proper compression die and stay with 200grain boolits.

[Thundermaker]

you can get 40 grains in if you use a proper compression die and stay with 200grain boolits.

I can actually get 40 grains under the 215gr bullet I'm using without difficulty.

[Abert Rim]

Glad I have the Uberti with 1:20 twist. Can't wait to do some workups. The Kort 215C should be here from Accurate any day now.

[Thundermaker]

Glad I have the Uberti with 1:20 twist. Can't wait to do some workups. The Kort 215C should be here from Accurate any day now.

That's the same bullet I'm using. That mold is great.

[Tomokabear]

Does anyone know where I can find 44-40 brass either new or used?

[Red River Rick]

Does anyone know where I can find 44-40 brass either new or used?

We do have a "Swapping & Selling" section here at Cast Boolits. There was some 44-40 brass for sale just the other day. You may want to look there, and or post a "WTB" ad rather than ask here.

[Tomokabear]

Thanks Rick,
I will take a look there and see what is available. Although I have been lurking in the background for years I have not posted anything. That means I cannot use some of the features of this forum.
Barry

[dtknowles]

......Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.

Won't hard lead bullets seal the bore at any pressure if they are bigger than groove diameter?

Tim

[Thundermaker]

Won't hard lead bullets seal the bore at any pressure if they are bigger than groove diameter?

Tim

Should, just like with smokeless loads.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

No they will not. No bore is perfect. The imperfections will let jets of hot gas blow by hard cast bullets shot at low pressure. This will cause leading. It isn't just size sealing the bore. The accelerating bullet resists forward movement and expands slightly causing it to press against the bore. If the bullet is too hard to expand (obturate) by the pressure applied to it's base then it will not seal the bore.

[Thundermaker]

No they will not. No bore is perfect. The imperfections will let jets of hot gas blow by hard cast bullets shot at low pressure. This will cause leading. It isn't just size sealing the bore. The accelerating bullet resists forward movement and expands slightly causing it to press against the bore. If the bullet is too hard to expand (obturate) by the pressure applied to it's base then it will not seal the bore.

Funny how I'm not getting any leading.

Obturation happens at the moment of ignition. It is caused by the inertia of the bullet. Soft lead will collapse into itself before the expanding gasses overcome the bullet's inertia, causing the bullet to expand outwards. Once that bullet starts moving, obturation is over. So, by your logic, every gun would lead like crazy because some imperfection in the bore would negate the benefit of the obturation.

Obturation was important in the old guns with factory ammunition because there was such a wide variance in bore dimensions, which ammunition manufacturers could not account for. It is still important in muzzle loaders because you're limited to bullets at bore (land) diameter, so you need the bullet to expand and grip the rifling.

Many smokeless loads will not obturate even soft bullets because the acceleration is too slow. How do smokeless shooters get around this? They cast the bullet at .001" or more over groove diameter.

If you force something into a hole that is larger than the diameter of the hole, it seals, just like corking a bottle.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

Thundermaker. Nope.
A cork in your analogy is an expanding spring continually pressing against the inside wall of what it seals. A bullet will not have that much pressure pushing against the walls of the bore as to hold back the 10,000psi (or more) expanding hot gas. There was an article on the LASC cast bullet sight, "IS YOUR BULLET SOFT ENOUGH?" . This article explained the subject much better than I can. This is also a rule of thumb, not a carved in stone absolute. Every firearm and load combination are a unique of their own. It has also been my experience with commercial "hard cast" bullets. This is how and why I became a bullet caster. Just one of my real life experiences is this. 44WCF (44-40) , 240Gr bullet, CCI#350 Primer, Starline brass and a slightly compressed load of Reloder 7. With hardball alloy severe leading, with wheel weight alloy not quite as severe leading, with 20-1 alloy zero leading. This is with two rifles and a revolver, and bullet fit was not the issue.

[Thundermaker]

and bullet fit was not the issue.

Are you sure? You slugged the bores?

We can go around in circles about that analogy, but you're ignoring all my other points.

Either way, it has nothing to do with anything in this thread, as I'm not having any leading problems or ES problems that would suggest that the bullet isn't sealing.

[Outpost75]

Hard bullet lubes are a worse culprit in bore leading than hard alloy. I overcoat commercial hard cast bullets with 45-45-10 over top of the hard lube and get no leading, even if a bit undersized. I never get any leading with beeswax-olive oil with any alloy.

[Larry Gibson]

Hard bullet lubes are a worse culprit in bore leading than hard alloy. I overcoat commercial hard cast bullets with 45-45-10 over top of the hard lube and get no leading, even if a bit undersized. I never get any leading with beeswax-olive oil with any alloy.

Same here. I've a lot of .429 sized bullets through several different revolvers with .429 groove barrels and rifles with .430+ groove barrels. The bullets were my own cast with Javelina lube and never had any leading and excellent accuracy. Also shot a lot of commercial hard cast .429 bullets with hard wax lubes that I gave a light coat of LLA to. Never had any leading with those either.

It's primarily the use of a poor lube that causes leading. I do the LLA treatment to all commercial hard cast bullets of various calibers in numerous cartridges and get no leading.

Also with properly lubed bullets the bullet itself will not touch the bore but will ride on a layer of lube. What that means, for example, is a lubed .430 bullet shot through a .429 groove depth barrel will come out of the muzzle at more like .425 +/- diameter.

[Thundermaker]

Also with properly lubed bullets the bullet itself will not touch the bore but will ride on a lay of lube. What that means, for example, is a lubed .430 bullet shot through a .429 groove depth barrel will come out of the muzzle at more like .425 +/- diameter.

That's an interesting theory. I'll have to figure out a way to test that.

[Larry Gibson]

That's an interesting theory. I'll have to figure out a way to test that.

Not theory, it's been proven over and over again with tests conducted by members of this forum including myself. Simply shoot some lubed cast bullets into a medium that doesn't damage them and then measure them.

[Outpost75]

Hard bullets are subject to ablation caused by gas leaking around the bullet. They do not obturate, which is why they lead the bore UNLESS you use a soft lube which flows readily when exposed to the heat and pressure of powder gases, so that they coat the bore. Soft lubes induce boundary layer lubrication which prevents adhesion of vaporous lead ablation products to the bore surface. Lacking this condition bullet diameter is reduced and is measurable, exactly as Larry stated.

[indian joe]

You are using the 215C right? If so, there should be plenty of lube to shoot at least 50 rounds without any loss of accuracy or build up of crud. More than likely the problem is the type lube...I forget the details you posted earlier...or your results are normal after shooting nearly 80 rounds.

Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.

curious here ....are you saying the olde fashioned powder generated more pressure per grain ? OR this is just because we are not putting as much powder in the case ?

[indian joe]

Not theory, it's been proven over and over again with tests conducted by members of this forum including myself. Simply shoot some lubed cast bullets into a medium that doesn't damage them and then measure them.

this could develop into an interesting argument - think I might get some popcorn and watch.:mrgreen:

ps never been a fan of hard cast boolits - its a myth created by commercial casters so they could speed up their production .... softish alloy and good lube = best performance - in the gun and on game.

[missionary5155]

Determine groove. 40-1 lead mix of proper diameter. 45-55 olive oil-beeswax lube. Cereal box wad slug. Case near full of 3F Goex.
Go out and shoot and enjoy that old BP slug slinger.
40 years and about a ton of 40-1 or range scrap down range and still smiling.

[Thundermaker]

curious here ....are you saying the olde fashioned powder generated more pressure per grain ? OR this is just because we are not putting as much powder in the case ?

I am putting the same amount of powder in the case as the old loads, but I'm getting about 300fps less velocity. However, my rifle has the same slow twist as the original. That's why I'm thinking that velocity might be an issue. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. People often forget that bullet stability is achieved by spinning a given bullet at a certain RPM, and RPM is a function of twist rate and velocity.


this could develop into an interesting argument - think I might get some popcorn and watch.:mrgreen:

ps never been a fan of hard cast boolits - its a myth created by commercial casters so they could speed up their production .... softish alloy and good lube = best performance - in the gun and on game.

If there is an argument over that subject, you can be sure it won't involve me.

As far as "hard cast" bullets, does air-cooled COWW qualify as such? Looking at some brinell hardness charts, it's the same hardness as the 16:1 alloy that a lot of the BPCR shooters are using.

[Nobade]

I find ACWW work fine in black powder cartridges, and that's what I mainly use. But you need to remember that they will get harder over time. After a year or so, they do not shoot as well as when they are fresh. When I was young, an old timer taught me that if you can easily scratch/dent your bullets with a fingernail, they are soft enough to work. If not they're too hard.
You can anneal wheelweight metal in an oven to soften it back to where it was when cast if you like.

[indian joe]

I am putting the same amount of powder in the case as the old loads, but I'm getting about 300fps less velocity. However, my rifle has the same slow twist as the original. That's why I'm thinking that velocity might be an issue. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. People often forget that bullet stability is achieved by spinning a given bullet at a certain RPM, and RPM is a function of twist rate and velocity.



If there is an argument over that subject, you can be sure it won't involve me.

As far as "hard cast" bullets, does air-cooled COWW qualify as such? Looking at some brinell hardness charts, it's the same hardness as the 16:1 alloy that a lot of the BPCR shooters are using.

most of those old loads were full 40 grains (weight) and a 200grain boolit
common now is 36 - 37 grains (thats -100fps) and a 215+ grain boolit (another - 100fps) 24 or 26 inch barrels instead of the common 20 inch (another -100fps) ....maybe also their powder was a tad better?

[missionary5155]

The BPCR shooters are also not shooting 44 WCF at short ranges of under 300 yards.
Our 45-90 and other 32" barreled 10+ pound rifles consume double the BP and 3x the lead weight with each shot.

[Thundermaker]

most of those old loads were full 40 grains (weight) and a 200grain boolit
common now is 36 - 37 grains (thats -100fps) and a 215+ grain boolit (another - 100fps) 24 or 26 inch barrels instead of the common 20 inch (another -100fps) ....maybe also their powder was a tad better?

I am putting 40 grains into it. 40gr volume happens to be 40gr weight with my measure. I tested it.

215gr vs 200gr does not lose 100fps, nor does 4 inches off the barrel. Besides that, I was referring to velocities from the same length barrel.

The 36-37 grain charges of swiss are getting the same velocities as the old 40 gr loads due to the volume difference in the cases. The pressures wind up about the same.

You can see John Kort's tests on various brands of powder in the cartridge with this 215gr bullet (his design). Scheutzen just doesn't get good velocity. Swiss does. That'll be my next test.

[Thundermaker]

The BPCR shooters are also not shooting 44 WCF at short ranges of under 300 yards.
Our 45-90 and other 32" barreled 10+ pound rifles consume double the BP and 3x the lead weight with each shot.

I fail to see what difference that makes in reference to the subject.

[Thundermaker]

I find ACWW work fine in black powder cartridges, and that's what I mainly use. But you need to remember that they will get harder over time. After a year or so, they do not shoot as well as when they are fresh. When I was young, an old timer taught me that if you can easily scratch/dent your bullets with a fingernail, they are soft enough to work. If not they're too hard.
You can anneal wheelweight metal in an oven to soften it back to where it was when cast if you like.

That's something that's a bit perplexing. I guess the best approach for utmost accuracy is to cast your bullets no more than a week ahead of time.

That being said, I'm not going for sub MOA. I'm just going for minute of tin can at 100.

[Griff]

Does anyone know where I can find 44-40 brass either new or used?Keep your eye on Starline's website. As soon as it goes from "no-backorders" to "back-orders accepted", place your order. It may take a few days to receive or a few months, but when you order, order as much as you can afford!

[indian joe]

I am putting 40 grains into it. 40gr volume happens to be 40gr weight with my measure. I tested it.

215gr vs 200gr does not lose 100fps, nor does 4 inches off the barrel. Besides that, I was referring to velocities from the same length barrel.

The 36-37 grain charges of swiss are getting the same velocities as the old 40 gr loads due to the volume difference in the cases. The pressures wind up about the same.

You can see John Kort's tests on various brands of powder in the cartridge with this 215gr bullet (his design). Scheutzen just doesn't get good velocity. Swiss does. That'll be my next test.

agree on the scheutzen (Wano) it weighs heavy shoots weak --moreso in smaller cases I think --ie less difference in bigger charges and particularly under heavy boolits (just an opinion from shooting - no data to back that)

on the other ? -- disagree --- you may not lose 100FPS for that extra boolit weight but guarantee you will lose some FPS - measureable if you care to do that. Ditto for carbine barrel length vs rifle (4inches) been there done that one - maybe not 100FPS but your chronograph will notice it.

[Thundermaker]

agree on the scheutzen (Wano) it weighs heavy shoots weak --moreso in smaller cases I think --ie less difference in bigger charges and particularly under heavy boolits (just an opinion from shooting - no data to back that)

on the other ? -- disagree --- you may not lose 100FPS for that extra boolit weight but guarantee you will lose some FPS - measureable if you care to do that. Ditto for carbine barrel length vs rifle (4inches) been there done that one - maybe not 100FPS but your chronograph will notice it.

Like I said, you can see John Kort's tests. He got about 300fps less velocity with Scheutzen than swiss in the same barrel with that bullet.

Hopefully you're right about less difference in bigger cases and heavy bullets. I might try it in my newly acquired 45-70.

[Outpost75]

Not shooting black, but smokeless in Rugers, Piettas and Marlins. Great success with 230-grain Accurate 43-229H and 43-230G and nominal case full, filled gently without compression. Accurate and powerful hunting loads.

312336312337

[indian joe]

Like I said, you can see John Kort's tests. He got about 300fps less velocity with Scheutzen than swiss in the same barrel with that bullet.

I would agree with that -- I got +200 give or take a whisker from Goex to Wano with a 225 grain - everybody says Swiss better again than Goex....

Got 1355 FPS from a 24 inch Uberti with 40 grains (weight) of Homemade under the 215 grain RCBS boolit

Hopefully you're right about less difference in bigger cases and heavy bullets. I might try it in my newly acquired 45-70.
....

[Abert Rim]

Outpost, that 43-229H is a good-looking bullet, and seems rounded enough on the meplat edges to be a good feeder. Also has a nice lube groove if shooting with black.
What powder are using, and what velocities are you getting?

[indian joe]

Not shooting black, but smokeless in Rugers, Piettas and Marlins. Great success with 230-grain Accurate 43-229H and 43-230G and nominal case full, filled gently without compression. Accurate and powerful hunting loads.

312336312337

I missed something in the translation "nominal case full"...... of ????????
RE7 ??? or ????????

[missionary5155]

Our 44WCF rifles & carbines get fed 40-1. 37-39 gr 3F Goex. Why use more tin than needed.
Our 45-90 gets fed 91 grains of 3F Goex and 40-1 cast does not maintain nose shape.

[Outpost75]

I missed something in the translation "nominal case full"...... of ????????
RE7 ??? or ????????

RL7 or 4198.

[Outpost75]

Outpost, that 43-229H is a good-looking bullet, and seems rounded enough on the meplat edges to be a good feeder. Also has a nice lube groove if shooting with black.
What powder are using, and what velocities are you getting?

18.5 of 4227, 22 grs of 4198 or 24 grs RL7 for 1350 fps

[Abert Rim]

Thanks, Outpost. I believe I have some H-4198 hiding around here somewhere.