Linotype for big game

[Pahaska]

I've read many opinions and assumptions concerning using Linotype hunting bullets for higher velocity (1,800-2,000 fps) rifle bullets. I'm about to cast some .511", 525gr, gas check bullets with .375" meplat for elk, moose, bison etc. I've read about Linotype bullets being "too brittle", not getting through heavy bone etc. My thoughts... even if the bullet were to split in two or three pieces, each piece of "shrapnel" would still be relatively destructive. In fact there are copper and brass bullet manufacturers who intentionally build bullets to fragment, to induce a larger, more destructive wound channel. I'm looking for some comments with "experience", and knowledge, not what you heard from your wife's, cousin's, ex brother inlaw. Anyone here with some input? Thanks

[Nobade]

I don't know about brittle, I think more like armor piercing. No expansion at all, but a 50 caliber bullet is already expanded so I'd say it should work fine.

[bangerjim]

12-15 hardness + PC will work.

[Nueces]

When I was starting out in casting, my platform was a new Marlin 1895 in 45-70 and my mould was an early Lyman Ideal 457122HP, with a really deep hollow point stem. I liked the good fillout I got with linotype, so cast a bunch and loaded them over 16 grains of Unique to carry against Texas jackrabbits. They behaved like varmint bullets, exploding on contact and opening a jack up like a placemat. Of course, I would expect a solid lino slug to hold together, but these deep HPs were spectacular!

[ShooterAZ]

I don't know about brittle, I think more like armor piercing. No expansion at all, but a 50 caliber bullet is already expanded so I'd say it should work fine.

I agree with this! A 525 grain 50 Cal boolit cast with Lino is going to do some serious damage to whatever it hits. If you want to go a little softer, mix it 1/1 with pure lead and stretch out your precious Lino a little further.

[Tripplebeards]

To hard of an alloy. Unless you hit bone the hard alloy will act like a FMJ and sail right through the animal. No expansion and no kinetic energy transfer what so ever. Look at some of my old posts on using 15.4 BH alloy on deer with a Ruger 77/44 at 1750 fps. I posted in and out boolit holes of the deer. Two out of 3 deer had no blood trail to follow and both made it over 120 plus yards before both dropped dead with broad side double lung shots. I switched to 50/50 alloy with a BH of 10.5 at 2100 fps in my 35 Rem and deer now bang flop on the spot. Also did a post on it with in and out expansion holes. IMO you want as soft of an alloy you can shoot accurately for hunting.


I’d recommend 50/50 COWW and Pure soft lead with 2% pewter added to the total to keep it malleable.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm very much a soft alloy, expansion fan, but your listed bullet will likely do well with linotype. You have a big enough bullet, with a big enough flat nose, I think you will be ok. The hole wont be giant, but it will be fine. I really doubt you will hit anything major enough to stop 525 grains, even it the nose shears off. So while there is no good reason to use straight linotype, you wont have any issues.

[farmbif]

there is a thread on here somewhere that was very enlightening by a guy who went on Africa safari with handguns and cast bullets. if someone knows where it is might put a link for the OP to read. might be helpful info.
plus ill post this again only because I guess ive learned so much from it and think its very helpful practical info for any bullet caster and the OP is new member.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[Pahaska]

I'm reading all the responses with interest. If I were to add 50/50 pure lead to my Linotype, the bullet weight would increase quite a bit? I also have WW ingots. How might combining Linotype with Wheel weights turn out? I'm with you on preserving my Linotype.

[MichaelR]

I’ve hunted exclusively with a.45 caliber rifle for the last twenty years. A 500 grain bullet with a .30” meplat cast twenty to one. 110 grains of 2F black powder gives me around 1400 fps. The bullet seldom expands and I don’t care if it does or not. The .30” meplat produces a massive wound. I’d say your 525 grain bullet with a .375” meplat will produce a devastating wound. There’s a book, Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets, all lead bullet hunters should read it.

[Soundguy]

If it was me, I might drop it to 18-20 bhn with a bit of range scrap.. Or.. Get crazy.. Trade out 10% of the lino with some copper bearing babbit. It will be harder than lino.. But actually deform instead of shatter when hitting a bone. I did a hammer test on some super hard .457 I made for mammoth hog.. Adding a little babbit makes a dang durable bullet.. Hammer it into a coin without it crumbling.

[Tripplebeards]

Found my old posts…

Using 15.4 BH alloy.To hard IMO…

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!




Softer 10.5 BH alloy at 2100 fps…

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?414159-Finally-shot-a-deer-with-my-Marlin-336-and-our-200-grain-HP-group-buy!


Any alloy will work I just like expansion and don’t worry about eating all the way to the “hole”. I’d rather have some energy transfer and not have a frustrating track with no blood. After watching two deer being shot broadside in the lungs back to back at 20 to 25 yards and both stood there like there weren’t even hit I was less than impressed. I was even less impressed when they both ran with zero blood trails to follow. If I were aiming for the head, backbone, or spine…which I wouldn’t never do…I’m sure they would have dropped like my 3rd deer did. It still kicked around for 20 yards for a minute or two before dying. Most that tell you to aim for these places will admit they weren’t aiming for those places but dropped their animal. I’ve have shot many animals in my trap line with head shots at point blank and yes they drop on the spot. But to place a cast boolit in a deer’s brain free handed and out to a 100 yards when most shooters here shoot 3 to 4 inch groups off a steady rest with cast is an unethical recipe for disaster. IMO most can’t group tight enough with cast to pinpoint a 1.5” diameter backbone and guess where it’s at to begin with without X-ray glasses. Same with a head shot. An inch off and you just wounded an animal you though you missed. Not ethical shots in my opinion and never will be . As you can see a softer alloy in my 35 Rem dropped the deer on the spot and never moved. I lost some rib meat that I do not eat. I think the only way I’d consider using a hard alloy would be in a very low velocity pistol so I have the possibility of an exit with a chance of blood coming out of two holes instead of pooling up inside the animal with no blood trail to follow. All you can do pick an alloy, cast some up, and try for yourself. If you hit an animal in the vitals it’s going to die regardless of what alloy you use. It’s just how far it goes after the shot and how much blood you will or won’t have to follow will depend on your alloy choice imo. You will decide very quickly after the first animal or two if you like the alloy and boolit you picked out. Good luck and keep up posted with the outcome.

[Larry Gibson]

Linotype "hardness" is not needed for 1800 - 2000 fps with a GC'd bullet.

4 lbs of linotype
5 1/2 lbs of pure lead
1/2 lb of tin

That will make 10 lbs of #2 alloy.

Then you will have an excellent and much better alloy for your bullets. AC'd the BHN will be about 15 - 16.

However, if you want a much better alloy that will be more malleable for some expansion yet hold together for all the penetration needed for those larger game animals, mix the #2 alloy 50/50 with more pure lead. That is the alloy I use to push a 400 gr GC'd bullet to 2300 fps and a 500 gr GC'd bullet at 2050 fps out of my 450-400-70 Siamese Mauser. If you need to have a "harder" bullet, simply WQ the bullets of this alloy right out of the mould. The BHN will run16 - 18 which will do nicely at 2000 fps and do excellently at the terminal end also.

[elk hunter]

Every shot fired at game can give a different result partially depending on the alloy of the bullet, velocity and what the bullet strikes in the animal. I've had a 400 grain round nose .460 diameter bullet cast of wheel weight lead, at leisurely velocity of 1200 FPS, brake-up when it hit the leg bone of a big Mule Deer buck at 25 yards. I had a 525 grain .585 diameter flat nose bullet cast of linotype expand slightly and only lose 7 grains of weight when fired at approximately 1600 FPS into the chest of a Cape Buffalo at 20 yards. No bones were hit and bullet was recovered in the paunch. In my limited experience soft bullets tend to deform and slow down, hard bullets deform less but can still deform/expand somewhat and not break-up in large tough skinned animals if no bones are hit. I don't see any need for extremely hard bullets for use on most game animals but there can be exceptions. The cast bullet in the center is 30 caliber for size comparison.
298593298594298595

[Beerd]

Pahaska,
about half way down this page https://castbulletassoc.org/downloads there is an "ALLOY CALCULATOR" that you might have some fun playing around with.
..

[quilbilly]

What Larry Gibson said! I use the same alloy in both rifle and pistol boolits (approx 60% pure and 40% hard plus a little extra tin) and it has given me great accuracy as well as expansion for hunting.

[Smoke4320]

pure linotype will work and will kill but you will more that likely have a bullet dia in and bullet dia out hole. As several other very knowledgeable shooters above have said I would mix that type with some much softer lead and get a much better performing bullet

[Pahaska]

Thanks to all you responders. The consensus is to go softer. Now my question involves bullet shrinkage after exiting the mold. My "Mountain Mold" is built to cast 525 gr Linotype .511"dia as cast. Correct me if I'm wrong, if I use softer alloys in my Linotype mold, the softer alloys will shrink more when cooled, creating a finished diameter bullet perhaps less than the groove diameter of my barrel (.510" groove). The idea of my loose fitting slug ricocheting out my barrel, exiting to wander around the forest searching for something to crash into, seems undesirable. If I have another mold built, should I design it for an alloy in the 8BHN range etc. and then I can size harder alloys down to .512" with the only sizer available to me? I see Mountain Molds is back in business and just this morning I emailed him requesting a response. "I love this stuff"!

[Soundguy]

Yup.. Softer.. Smaller...

[Tripplebeards]

Tumble PC your boolits. It will add a thousands or so of thickness. Sometimes I PC 2ce to add diameter. It sure is hard to size a double PC boolit through a lee sizer...I can tell you first hand. I don't make a practice of it anymore. Order a pound of clear PC from Smoke and some BB’s.I thick PC tumbled some 50 cal lee REAL boolits. It shrunk my 4" plus groups at 50 yards to an all touching 4 shot group. I never sized those...just PCd. I'd suggest running a rifle boolit through a sizer to make sure the PC added enough diameter.

[Pahaska]

Thanks Tripplebeards. I've got some black powder on it's way from Powder by the Pound. I'll try that since it's already on it's way.

[Elmer Fudd]

I use an HP 45 colt bullet with hard alloy, sometimes with Lino amounts of Sn to make a frangible bullet at about 1100fps. The front hollow area shears off into several small pieces and the base continues on, like the Hammer bullets. I have only killed milk jugs with water in them so far, but the hard in place of soft will make a little grenade, rather than an expanding wound channel creator.

Otherwise, you have it all settled above.

[swOhioMatt]

298595

Exposed hammer double rifle. Traditional African big game stuff.
Drool.
Sorry for the hijack.

Back to the thread, I’ve only cast with lino. I have a large supply from a friend and the material is so easy to cast. Each bullet perfectly filled out and zero leading problems no matter how hard I try to drive them in a revolver. I am not a “serious” hunter, but everything I’ve taken with those lino bullets had one hole in and one big hole out. I’ve never recovered a bullet, even with the hog I shot. No indications of bullet fracture and the 45 WFN means I have little concern about expansion. Perhaps a smaller diameter bullet will fracture, but the 41s and 45s I’ve shot have not.

[Pahaska]

Tumblebeards, I've seen/heard of tumble coating with BBs. What advantage/service does that provide?

[rockrat]

In my 50's I usually use WW plus a little copper. I add a bit of #3 babbit. Seems to make the boolits cast a bit larger in diameter. Nowadays, I probably would go with WW's and powder coating. Gotta get my moulds out and cast some 660's to try

[Tripplebeards]

Tumblebeards, I've seen/heard of tumble coating with BBs. What advantage/service does that provide?

It helps with building up static to help PC stick better. I get all my PC and BBs from Smoke right here on castboolits.

[ChristopherO]

Just a quick note: When BB's are mentioned with powder coating they are meaning Airsoft BB's that are plastic to help facilitate static cling better. Some Airsoft BB's are better than others. Smoke sells the correct variety when ordering from him. A search in the PC forum on this board is helpful for those looking to know more.

[Tripplebeards]

Just a quick note: When BB's are mentioned with powder coating they are meaning Airsoft BB's that are plastic to help facilitate static cling better. Some Airsoft BB's are better than others. Smoke sells the correct variety when ordering from him. A search in the PC forum on this board is helpful for those looking to know more.

Yes, sorry if I didn’t elaborate. Plastic air soft BBs is what I meant.

[popper]

10# lino, 20# Pure and 1/2# CuSO4, then WD if more toughness needed. 165gr TC 40sw, 950 fps into a rock pile from 5 ft. 99% wt retention, expanded nose to body dia. Same alloy, 308W, 165gr GC @ 2400 fps is MOA@ 200 and knocks down large steel target.

[ElCheapo]

What alloy works best for hunting bullets will be determined by impact velocity and nose shape.

I began hunting with cast about 20 years ago. Water quenched COWW's at 1750 fps from my Marlin 357 carbine killed deer like lightning with the 180 grain WFN GC's I was using at the time. I took shoulder shots which immobilized the deer and ruined heart and lungs, resulting in a quick death. I could eat right up to the hole, and this worked great on the public land I hunted at the time because nobody else would be shooting at my deer if I put it down on the spot.

Fast forward to a few years ago when I started using the 30-30. The first deer to recieve my water quenched Lyman 311041 died quickly enough, but at 2200 fps the bullet started breaking apart. Pieces of the bullet were randomly dispersed throughout the wound channel to be found later upon butchering and at the dinner table. Not the kind of performance I wanted! The alloy was obviously too hard and brittle for the higher velocity. I changed my alloy to a 50/50 mix of COWW's and pure lead. This increased ductility was just the ticket and helped the bullet hold together and penetrate while still producing a wound that was quickly lethal.

Then when PC'ing came along I found that the process of heating and cooling bullets to apply the powdercoat lowered the BHN to 10 or 11. I felt this was low enough that I no longer needed to add pure lead to the mix, and this was proved right when I used a Lyman 311008 to take a deer last season. The bullet penetrated through both shoulders of my deer and exited, with no pieces of lead found anywhere in the animal. You can read about it here... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?435728-311008-works-for-deer-too!&highlight=311008+works+deer

All this applies to flatnosed bullets, and they do an excellent job of killing deer at woods ranges. They are in fact my favorite bullets for deer hunting. Unfortunately my 300 blackout AR won't feed them at all. I have to use roundnose bullets to get the rifle to function. So my thoughts on this are that I need to once again use the 50/50 mix of COWW's and pure lead. Penetration shouldn't be a problem with these bullets at 2200 fps, but without expansion the wounding capability of the roundnoses will be lacking. Hopefully the softer alloy will allow some expansion. Even if I get some flattening of the bullet tip this should be enough to cause a lethal wound. Only one way to find out!