Keyhole Mosin Nagant

[omgb]

So, I decided to cast some loads for my Soviet Made, 1957 Mosin Nagant rifle. This old gal has seen better days but the rifling is deep. The crown is worn and the wood is shrunk but the gun has a great trigger and….it was free to me 35 years ago

Anyway, it shoots patterns, not groups, using old Rusky ammo. I thought I try some cast loads. I had a Lyman 180 gr mold that dropped .311 all day. A .32 cal gas check put the back of the bullet at .3125”. Well, they key hole. Bullets are spraying all over. So back in the lab, I drive a 32-20 bullet down the barrel. These drop at .314. Sure enough, I get .314 groove to groove. So my take is I need .314 min to get any accuracy. What do you think? I’m going to try some of those 118 gr. 32-20 bullets sized.314. If the work, I’ll have a custom .314 mold built. What do you think?


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[nicholst55]

If you have a set of pin gauges, see what the largest pin that will fit into the mouth of an unsized, as-fired case. I would subtract .001-002" to allow for case neck expansion when it's fired, and look for a mold the same diameter. NOE offers some molds in .316". Even if the boolit starts out larger than the groove diameter, it will swage down to fit.

[ShooterAZ]

.314 is the diameter cast boolits I use for my MN. It also shoots the Hornady 312-150 grain jacketed very, very well. I would suggest at least trying the Lee 314-90 pistol boolit, under 3.2 grains of Bullseye. You won't be disappointed! It's a tackdriver with my MN. 2.7 grains of Bullseye with the same boolit in my M94 30-30 gives the same results. Miles of Smiles!

[WRideout]

You might need to consider rifling twist, also. Apparently factory twist is 1" in 9.5". They were designed to shoot an approximately 150 gr bullet. That twist might overstabilize the light boolits. My 91-30 also has deep grooves, and I shoot a beagled (enlarged) Lee C309-170 boolit sized .313".

[Rapidrob]

I have been running NM MILSURPS for the last 28 years and many of my clubs members shoot the Mosin rifles. We only shoot long distance matches.You answered your own question with your remark " The crown is worn". A worn or damaged crown will throw off a fired round by venting the propelling gases at unpredictable angles. Also check for cleaning rod damage to the rifling within the last couple of inches near the muzzle. Many of the Mosin M-38's have been counter-bored because of CR damage, I've seen 91/30's and M-44's with damage as well. A well done counter bore can restore lost accuracy as well.
Buy a Brownells re-crowning tool or have the crown re-cut by a competent gunsmith. The results are well worth the money.
My members shoot mostly surplus ammo and many of the countries 7.62x54R rounds are very accurate out to 800 yards with the 150 grain steel core bullets winning the group size war over the lead core bullets.

[omgb]

A recrowning tool is about $75 and then I need a brass spud too and that’s $25. So I’m looking at about $100 IIRC.


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[GhostHawk]

Any time I see keyholing I instantly think "Bullets too small"

Crown could in theory also cause it.

I also agree with ShooterAZ. The Lee .314 TL truncated cone bullet is a wonder in every gun I have shot it in.

Run through a .311 die for .30-30 over 3 grains of Red Dot it shoots to the sights at 25 yards, is quiet, and a grouse and rabbit killer.
You can carry a few of those along with your high powered .30-30 loads and at a glance tell them apart.
This adds functionality to an already incredibly functional round.

And yes it works great in the Mosin too. It was what convinced me to Lap out a Lee 185 gr gas check from .312 to .315. Then run it through a Lee .314 sizing die to crimp on the gas checks. I won't say my Mosin is a MOA rifle, but if I had a good enough scope on it IMO it could be.

[pacomdiver]

So, I decided to cast some loads for my Soviet Made, 1957 Mosin Nagant rifle. This old gal has seen better days but the rifling is deep. The crown is worn and the wood is shrunk but the gun has a great trigger and….it was free to me 35 years ago

think you mean 1937 if a 91/30 or 1947 if a m44. if 1957, its chinese.


some of mine slug upwards of 314, i cast a NOE 311365 that i beagled and they drop at .315, i powdercoat them and shoot without sizing in the larger ones, or use it unbeagled (.3105) then powder coated for the 312 and 313 ones both GC'd and unchecked . guys have also had good luck with the 314299 bullet, larry will chime in here about them

where are you located? maybe a close member can help you out

[omgb]

My rifle is stamped 1957 and also made in USSR on the top of the barrel. There’s also an “N” stamped right below the date.


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[Larry Gibson]

The "1957" is the year it was made not the model of the rifle.

A picture of the rifle would clear up what the model is?

I have 4 MNs; a Finn M38 built by SAKO, a M91/30 sniper made at Izhevsk, a M91 also made at Izhevsk, and a Chinese made Type53 copy of the M1944. For cast bullets I use a .312 in the M38, a .314 in the M91/30. Both have excellent bores and shoot moa with quality jacketed bullets. They both shoot 1 1/2 moa with cast. The M91 has a slightly pitted bore with a recessed crown, and I fire lapped the bore. It still shoots milsurp in 4-5 moa and the .312 Hornady 150 SP will do 2 - 2 1/2 moa. It does the same 2 1/2 moa with a 314299.

The M53 has a sewer pipe barrel and milsurp ammo keyholes and will not stay on an "E" target at 50 yards. [Probably why the previous owner missed me] I also fire lapped it's bore. The Hornady .312 jacketed will shoot about 5 moa, maybe. I have a GB copy of the 311291 that was supposed to drop .314 bullets but mine drops them at .316 with COWWs + 2% tin. Those loaded in thin necked Norma cases over 4895 with a dacron filler to 1800 fps +/- will hold 3 - 4 moa.

Suggest, as mentioned, you use a bullet as large as will snugly slip into a milsurp or full powered jacketed fired case neck.

BTW; the twist rate of MNs 1 - 9 1/2" was made to stabilize the original 214 gr RNFMJ bullet adopted in 1891 for the rifle. It was kept at that twist rate when lighter weight "D" and "L" bullets were adopted as it worked just fine with the lighter weight bullets. Since they also had many, many barrel making machines and probably whare house full of already made barrels they kept that twist for the SKS and AK/AKM47 rifles.

[rbuck351]

I have an sks that shot about 2' patterns at 50 yds. Yes 2 feet at 50 with jacketed bullets. The barrel looked fine until I checked the crown. The crown looked like it had been cut with a hammer and chisel. I cut about 1/4" off the muzzle and recrowned with a round head brass screw and valve grinding compound. It now shoots about 3" at 100 yds with jacketed or cast. Considering that this is a cheap Chineese sks, I believe this is about as good as I can expect

With a bad crown you would be very lucky if it shoots anything but large patterns. Heavy wear from cleaning rods may require counter boring or cutting the barrel back far enough to get to decent rifling.

[pacomdiver]

My rifle is stamped 1957 and also made in USSR on the top of the barrel. There’s also an “N” stamped right below the date.


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like larry said, post a pic.
russia didnt make 91/30s or m44s after 1947 so that isnt possible, you prob are looking at a 3 wrong, china made m53s in that date range but they would have chinese characters under the date

[pacomdiver]

The M53 has a sewer pipe barrel and milsurp ammo keyholes and will not stay on an "E" target at 50 yards. [Probably why the previous owner missed me]

my uncle got a few that way, he was there in 66,67 and 69. in 67 he was a door gunner on a huey and they came over a back cove on the mekong and suprised 2 anchored sanpans, the 3 choppers shot the **** out of them and then landed, the vc were digging up a weapons cache (he said they didnt need them anymore). the guys divied up the spoils and took off. he got 2 53s, a sks and a 91/30 sniper, . his CO took the 91/30 as "administrative costs" for sending the rest home. i ended up with one of the 53s about 15 years ago and finally cleaned the cosmoline out of it after all those years. the bore looked pristine except for the last half inch (cosmo wasnt that far out), the wood looked like a rabid beaver chewed on it and gave up, the termites made some interesting tunnels and crannys in the butt on the right side just in front of the buttplate, the guy slopping the cosmo missed a spot on top of barrel under the wood and it was a rust bubble on there (think potato au-gratin looking slab) , i popped it off and there was a meteor size crater under it, prob an easy 1/8 to 3/16 deep hole and close to 1/2 diameter, so i never shot it . one of 3 in my collection ive never shot, the other 2 are the cadet trainers built by stevens after WW1 from the unfinished remington parts and cut down for the 03 bayonets (neither have rifling cut)

my 1893 tula 91 finn capture with a 1 1/2 counterbore and it shoots jacketed good after 120 plus years, so i never tried cast in in. i load cast for 15 or so of mine, mainly the NOE 311365 PC'd over Varget. my 4 PU (43,44 izh and 43,44 tulas), my 1938 Tula PE top mount and both PEM (38 tula and 42 Izh) sidemount snipers eat nothing but the 311 sierra match kings (glad i bought a couple of the 500 boxes when i could) over Varget in PPU brass and shoot them well. even my 1929 Tula D2 GeCo sniper shoots them well but the Zeiss scope is alot more tempermental to adjust so that doesnt get as much range time as it should

some of my actual Finns (ones with finn barrels not the captured ones), the 2 m27s like the heavy ball range (.312 diameter), while the 2 28s, 3 28/30s and the 30s like them in the 150g range (.308 diameter), 2 of my m24s ( 1 SIG barrel and 1 Boehler-Stahl) likes them in the 150g range but the other (Boehler-Stahl) gets the 311365 PC'd since it has a bad spot in the rifling. it shoots a solid 3 moa at 100. the only other finn i load 308 diameter for is my 1969 dated 28/76 rifle

[lar45]

Beagle a mold and try some larger bullets.
I'm not a Mosin guy, but have 2 short barreled ones. I did chamber casts on both including a short section of the rifling.
What was interesting is it wad a 4 groove barrel with one pair measuring. 312" and the other was .314"
The Brownells crown tools are a good investment. I have the 90deg facer and the 11deg target crown tool with several pilots for various calibers. If your buddies want to use it, have them buy the pilot and you get to keep it afterwards... I bought my set in the 90s and they are still sharp today.
If you think the muzzle and or end of the barrel could be worn from cleaning rod abuse. You might be able to use some chamber cast alloy to get an image of the inside end of the barrel.

[omgb]

I was thinking I could saw off .75” and recrown


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[Larry Gibson]

Try larger bullets before recrowning which may prove to unnecessary.

[omgb]

That is my plan


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[omgb]

If any of you have some 150+ grain .314 bullets I’d be happy to buy 30 or so from you.


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[Tripplebeards]

If any of you have some 150+ grain .314 bullets I’d be happy to buy 30 or so from you.


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That’s what I would suggest. See if another member has larger diameter boolits you can try. If it slugged at .314 I would be trying .316’s if you can find any. I bought a nagant last year and forgot I had till this post. Have a tuna can of ammo that came with it. The gun is in immaculate condition. I slug EVERY barrel first so I can figure out what boolit diameter I need for a proper fit.

[Larry Gibson]

If any of you have some 150+ grain .314 bullets I’d be happy to buy 30 or so from you.


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PM your address and I'll send some.

[rsrocket1]

Here's my experience with pictures:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265259-Next-session-for-Lee-311-185-1R-and-Mosin-Nagant-7-62x54R

[725]

Bigger bullet. Re-cut the crown without cutting the barrel any shorter. Powder coating your current bullet mold's bullets. Paper patch.

[dale2242]

What Larry said.
He sent me some when I was trying to get my .314 bore MN to shoot.
PM me an address and I will also send you some bullets.

[Shiloh]

Many of the Soviet relics have counter bored muzzles.
The crowns and 2"-4" of rifling have been destroyed by cleaning rods.

Shiloh