.45ACP loads for lighter springs.

[dearslayer]

A while back it was recommended that I change out the springs in my Ruger SR1911 .45acp to have more controlled handling which I did .The pistol now has a 13 lb recoil and 17 lb main spring and I was at time shooting 230gr copper plated bullets using if I remember correctly about 3.5grs of Vitavuori 310 and it shot fine . I want to load some COWW lead cast 200gr SWC boolits for the first time in this pistol. I found in the Lyman cast bullet 4th edition handbook a load for a Lyman #452630 200gr ( #2 alloy ) using Win231 with starting grains of 5.4 and max of 6.1. Given the pistol has lighter springs should I start at less than the minimum charge?

[Paper Puncher]

I can load down to 4.5 gr 231 200gr SWC (H&G 130 casts heavy) in my Springfield and still cycle.
Lyman 452460 (200gr) in Lyman Cast Bullet 3rd edition has a starting load of 4.0 gr 231.
With the H&G I didn't see any difference in accuracy (at 50ft indoor range) with loads going up or down in powder. YMMV

[mehavey]

The pistol now has a 13 lb recoil and 17 lb main spring
How are you differentiating between a "main" spring and a "recoil" spring on a 1911 ?

[wv109323]

Those are pretty light springs. My experience leads me to believe that 4.0 g. Of 231 would function pRoperly. The 200 g. SWC has a sweet spot of 4.2 g of Bullseye or 4.6 of ww231.

[45DUDE]

+1 for Paper Puncher for target loads. Look for the brass to eject about 4-5 feet with the right setup with 4.5 of 231.

[Char-Gar]

How are you differentiating between a "main" spring and a "recoil" spring on a 1911 ?

The main spring is in the Mainspring housing below the grip safety. The recoil spring is a bigger spring under the barrel.

Colt factory Mainsprings are 22-23 lbs and the recoil spring is 16 lbs. A 19 lb mainspring will give positive ignition and decrease the trigger pull weight, but go no lower or risk poor ignition of the primer. The Colt Gold Cup recoil spring is 14 pounds for lower bullet weight and velocity loads, but the 16 pound regular spring will function with those "target loads" as well as factory hard ball level loads and protect the pistol better as well. With a 16 lb recoil spring, you can shoot any load you want and not have to remember which recoil spring you have in the pistol, not change it as you change loads.

[dearslayer]

Thanks so much. I'll start at minimum charge and work back at .3 grains at a time from 5.4 - 4.2 until I have perhaps FTE and then move back up one charge. At least then I will know what the minimum charge will be. I hope I got that right and I understand

[David2011]

My minimum charge in a 1911 sends a 200 grain boolit at 645 fps. It’s a steel plate gun. It took lots of work to get 100% reliability.

[dearslayer]

I just happen to be listening to a reloading podcast on my drive to work and it's actually about undercharging as opposed to overcharging a load. They say that under charging can be just as catastrophic as overcharging. If you don't have enough pressure to move the bullet then the pressure doesn't go anywhere until the brass gives or it has enough pressure just to get the bullet into the rifling and all the gases back up and exit through the chamber. I'm quoting this from the podcast. So with the reduced loads that I just made should I be concerned or at what point should I not use those loads? Listening to the podcast now has me wondering.

[slughammer]

I just happen to be listening to a reloading podcast...... So with the reduced loads that I just made should I be concerned or at what point should I not use those loads? Listening to the podcast now has me wondering.

With 231, don't worry about it. With magnum handgun and rifle cases it becomes a concern. With low pressure W231 loads you will have no worries.

For a light steel plate load I used to run WST but had a bigger velocity spread. I switched to 4.5gr of W231 with a 200gr HG68 and found consistent velocity with excellent accuracy.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[dearslayer]

With 231, don't worry about it. With magnum handgun and rifle cases it becomes a concern. With low pressure W231 loads you will have no worries.

For a light steel plate load I used to run WST but had a bigger velocity spread. I switched to 4.5gr of W231 with a 200gr HG68 and found consistent velocity with excellent accuracy.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Good to know. It's amazing how quickly the responses come, and the number of responses there are, to help out a less experienced caster/reloader.

[mehavey]

200 grain boolit at 645 fps.Is a 16# recoil spring working for that load?

I ask because while the load below will work w/ 14# for a two-handed grip, it will stovepipe off-hand.
(In other words, a 13# spring would likely be best)
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/question-about-bullet-hardness.902990/#post-12237838

[44MAG#1]

What is the purpose of these loads if it is appropriate to ask?

[mehavey]

Light loads are for Bullseye/Nat'l Match competition -- where you want wear & tear on the competitor minimized,
-- and especially in timed & rapid fire, where you want fast recovery from shot-to-shot.



(Otherwise I'll run hardball Lym#2/Lyman 452374/225gr with 231 to average 870fps/17-lb spring.)

[44MAG#1]

I was curious as to why the OP was wanting loads like he wants.
If it is competition what kind?

[mehavey]

Bullseye/Nat'l Match (http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf)
See page 15-16

[44MAG#1]

Bullseye/Nat'l Match (http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf)
See page 15-16

Is that what the OP is using them for? I am familiar with the NRA Bullseye loads for competition.

[mehavey]

(Otherwise I'll run hardball Lym#2/Lyman 452374/225gr with 231 to average 870fps/17-lb spring.)
https://i.postimg.cc/VLM9mngX/1911-45-Sandy-Lyman452374-Hardball-LLd-sm.jpg

[Rich/WIS]

No longer compete in Bullseye competition but my favorite load is the Lee copy of the H&G 68 in front of 3.1 grs of Bullseye. In a Springfield Armory Range Officer with a 10# recoil spring and a 19# hammer spring the empties fall within 4-5 feet. Have shot thousands of these and have never had a failure of any type. Why 3.1 grs, because that is what my fixed rotor powder measure drops with the 3 gr rotor. The Lee mold is a bevel base and I milled the top down to flat base which weighs in at 190 grs cast from range lead and a bit less with COWW. My stash of CCI primers were bought when the price was $30-32/k and figure this is costing me about a nickel a shot. Not sure what an equivalent load of WW231 would be, have always used BE.

[gwpercle]

I just happen to be listening to a reloading podcast on my drive to work and it's actually about undercharging as opposed to overcharging a load. They say that under charging can be just as catastrophic as overcharging. If you don't have enough pressure to move the bullet then the pressure doesn't go anywhere until the brass gives or it has enough pressure just to get the bullet into the rifling and all the gases back up and exit through the chamber. I'm quoting this from the podcast. So with the reduced loads that I just made should I be concerned or at what point should I not use those loads? Listening to the podcast now has me wondering.

The podcast is spewing horse pucky ... if the boolit is undercharged the boolit will not exit the barrel .
A large pistol primer and no powder will shove the boolit into barrel throat . There will be no catastropic failure the case will not rupture with a powder charge that does not cycle the slide .
Bring a range rod when dealing with low charges and check the barrel every shot to make danged sure the boolit has left the barrel .
This info is from 40 years of shooting and reloading 1911 - 45 acp . 20 years NRA Bullseye Match Competition .
Don't believe what the podcasters are saying ... it's just horse pucky to scare you .
But ...make sure the barrel is clear , boolit stuck in barrel is real when working with powder puff light loads .
Gary

[mnewcomb59]

What is the purpose of these loads if it is appropriate to ask?

My light 45 load is a 125 grain flat point with about 3.5 grains of powder loaded in 38 or 9mm cases. The rest of my 45s are full power.

[Char-Gar]

It is a fact of shooting life, that lighter recoiling firearms are easier to shoot that those with heavier recoil. This is true of rifle, handguns and shotguns. In 2400 Bullseye shooting when one handgun must be the "service pistol", lighter loads were used to produce easier to shoot and thusly also produce higher scores, or so it was thought.

The fly in the ointment is that all self-loading firearms, are designed to work within certain recoil and or pressure limits. To encourage them to work outside those parameters, one must jack with the firearm. Jacking with firearms most often produces more problems than it solves and should only be done if needed.

John Browning's 1911 is a masterful design for a combat handgun that has survived for 111 years and still is on the top of the heap. We own and shoot them in order to be a part of the history of the wonderful pistol and or avail ourselves if it's effectiveness. I see no purpose or reason to jack with it's design to moved it outside of it's design parameters, just because.

Just one grumpy old coot's thoughts on the subject at hand.

[Char-Gar]

It is a fact of shooting life, that lighter recoiling firearms are easier to shoot that those with heavier recoil. This is true of rifle, handguns and shotguns. In 2400 Bullseye shooting when one handgun must be the "service pistol", lighter loads were used to produce easier to shoot and thusly also produce higher scores, or so it was thought.

The fly in the ointment is that all self-loading firearms, are designed to work within certain recoil and or pressure limits. To encourage them to work outside those parameters, one must jack with the firearm. Jacking with firearms most often produces more problems than it solves and should one be done if needed.

John Browning's 1911 is a masterful design for a combat handgun that has survived for 111 years and still is on the top of the heap. We own and shoot them in order to be a part of the history of the wonderful pistol and or avail ourselves if it's effectiveness. I see no purpose or reason to jack with it's design to moved it outside of it's design parameters, just because. After all, the 1911 pistol with full snort loads and factory springs isn't that hard to shoot well.

Just the opinion of a grumpy old coot on the subject at hand.

[dearslayer]

I don't shoot competition. To be totally honest I don't even remember why the change of springs was suggested at the time other than to make the gun " more enjoyable and easier to shoot" but to be honest I didn't have a real problem with it before the spring change. I guess I'm easily persuaded by those that seem to have more knowledge and shoot competition but I also believe it's more difficult for someone like me who doesn't have the same skill level but does enjoy learning. I'm gonna try these loads to see how they shoot and decide then, if I should but the original springs back in.

[reddog81]

Thanks so much. I'll start at minimum charge and work back at .3 grains at a time from 5.4 - 4.2 until I have perhaps FTE and then move back up one charge. At least then I will know what the minimum charge will be. I hope I got that right and I understand

This should work out just fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the 4.2 grain load still functions.

[Baltimoreed]

Been using 200 gr round nose flat point [cowboy bullets] or long nose swc in my 45acp forever. Been using 3.5 gr Bullseye as I was given some. They run in my pccs too. I like 3.0 in my revolvers. I also like Clays, Clay Dot or Red Dot powders in 45acp. The .45acp is an easy cartridge to reload and is naturally very accurate. JMB’s best.

[ChuckS1]

3.6 grains of Bullseye and a 200 grain SWC is my 25 yard load for bullseye competition. My pistol is a Les Baer Bullseye Wadcutter M1911A1 with a slide-mounted Ultradot red dot sight. 1” groups at 25 yards off a rest.

[justindad]

I don't shoot competition. To be totally honest I don't even remember why the change of springs was suggested at the time other than to make the gun " more enjoyable and easier to shoot" but to be honest I didn't have a real problem with it before the spring change. I guess I'm easily persuaded by those that seem to have more knowledge and shoot competition but I also believe it's more difficult for someone like me who doesn't have the same skill level but does enjoy learning. I'm gonna try these loads to see how they shoot and decide then, if I should but the original springs back in.

Being curious & learning is good! Perhaps you’ll find that heavier loads and heavier springs are in fact more enjoyable to shoot… only one way to find out :)

[dearslayer]

Well all loads work just fine and cycled the action without any issues. No FTF or FTE. The 5.4gr most definitely was hitting the gun a little hard as far as I could tell. The 4.8gr was the best for accuracy followed by 5.1gr.
I had about half a box of factory 230 grain bullets that I figured I'd try and I could definitely feel the gun taking a bit of a beating.
Having said this I decided to put the factory springs back in the gun. I will work up a few loads with the original springs. At least having the original springs back in will allow me to shoot reloads and factory without having to worry about the gun taking a beating.

I can always go with the lighter springs down the road if that's what I decide to do.298342298343

Sent from my LYA-L0C using Tapatalk

[44MAG#1]

Now you are on track.

[mehavey]

If you don't have enough pressure to move the bullet then the pressure doesn't go anywhere
until the brass gives or it has enough pressure just to get the bullet into the rifling and all the
gases back up and exit through the chamber.Wow....(!)
:holysheep

[downzero]

You will have no problem shooting whatever loads you want with those springs. They're not that light for what you're shooting. I normally run a 19 pound main and 14 pound recoil in a .45 with a full weight slide, but you're not going to see some kind of massive difference with your springs as they're just a touch lighter. I do agree that you may have some primers that won't pop once in a while though. My small pistol guns run 100% with a 17 pound, but in large pistol guns, I run a 19 just to be "sure."

[DonHowe]

I ran H&G 68 reliably with 3.8gr Bullseye and 11# spring. When I mounted an Ultradot on the slide I switched to 14# spring and ended up at 4.3gr Bullseye for 100% reliability.
With iron sights a 1911 with 13# recoil spring should cycle reliably with a 4.0gr Bullseye equivalent load under a 200gr bullet. I would not batter the frame with full power loads and 13# recoil spring.

I mention only Bullseye powder as I never fell under the spell of 231. Nor did I lose Bullseye matches because the competition burned 231.

[Char-Gar]

Now you are on track.

^^^^^^^Amen

[truckjohn]

I don't shoot competition. To be totally honest I don't even remember why the change of springs was suggested at the time other than to make the gun " more enjoyable and easier to shoot" but to be honest I didn't have a real problem with it before the spring change.

Yep, the firearm is a system, and that system includes the ammo and the shooter.

Ironically, with "standard" to +P ammo - the factory springs generally run best. Lighter springs will make it worse to shoot because the slide batters the frame. This can be pretty unpleasant, as the slide "clanking" telegraphs into your hands. That and throwing excessive amounts of burning powder all over your hands and wrists.

Softer springs also speed up the recoil impulse and can hurt accuracy until you shift to softer loads. But, they can help if someone is having reliability issues because of "limp wristing."

I often laugh when I see people crowing about "ultimate reliability" with absolutely any ammo. Generally, that means the springs are too weak and the gun will batter itself, and the shooter, to pieces while throwing bullets into huge patterns, but it does cycle reliably... Gas guns are sort of the same... Over gas them and they'll eat most anything, but at the cost of accuracy and damage to the gun.

[higgins]

Both 4.6 and 4.8 gr 231 function with a 200 gr. SWC in my Gov't Model with whatever poundage the factory spring is. Accurate loads too.

[Walks]

Lyman #452488 over 3.5grs of Bullseye, 13lb spring.
Been shooting that load for 45+yrs. Had it from My Dad who used it in a Pachmayr worked Colt 1911 to shoot Bullseye matches in the late 1940's thru the mid 1960's.

Switch to an H&G 68FB 200gr bullet and 4.5grs of Bullseye to a 16lb spring for a Combat load.

[dearslayer]

So now I guess I'm back to square one with factory springs ( or I assume they are factory as I am not the original owner ). As stated before the Lyman manual states 5.4 as a starting load and max is 6.1 for Win231. I'm wondering should I start at 5.4? I mean with the other lighter springs 4.8 worked best but I guess that will change now. I'll do the same as before and start with 5 rounds each at .3gr increase.

[Paper Puncher]

A typical Bullseye target load for 200 gr is 4.4 - 4.6 gr of 231. LOTS of people shooting these lighter loads so if the 4.8 works don't hesitate to use it.

I would start at 4.8 and work up from there if the 4.8 doesn't function in your gun.

[dearslayer]

A typical Bullseye target load for 200 gr is 4.4 - 4.6 gr of 231. LOTS of people shooting these lighter loads so if the 4.8 works don't hesitate to use it.

I would start at 4.8 and work up from there if the 4.8 doesn't function in your gun.

Wish I had seen your post before I loaded some. I have 10 rounds each of 5.4/5.6/5.8 and 6.0. Guess I'll see how it goes.

[Paper Puncher]

Shoot them and see how it goes. Enjoy the time at the range. Don't over think this. It is supposed to be fun. If the 5.4 works good you can always load some lighter loads for the next trip. Nothing wrong with having an excuse to go shoot some more test loads :)

[dearslayer]

Shoot them and see how it goes. Enjoy the time at the range. Don't over think this. It is supposed to be fun. If the 5.4 works good you can always load some lighter loads for the next trip. Nothing wrong with having an excuse to go shoot some more test loads :)

I was actually thinking the same thing. I'm enjoying it more than usual because at my indoor pistol section I have 24 hour access and it's only about 15 mins from home so when I go there immediately from working the night shift I'm the only one there usually, so it's really relaxing.

[dearslayer]

Went this morning and had some fun. Seems like 5.4 was the magic number right out of the gate. Had a couple jam ups after that . Think I'll stick to 5.4 and even perhaps load down like the last time to see how it does. Also the brass is still being flung pretty far. 298406298407

Sent from my LYA-L0C using Tapatalk

[reddog81]

On that floor I’m guessing the brass is rolling pretty far after landing.

[dearslayer]

It may be rolling some but it actually lands that far away for the most part.

[S.B.]

One has to remember that if they change spring weights in a semi auto their also changing the dynamics of what designing engineers(people far more knowledgeable than I) determined what works best in a particular handgun? So changer beware?
Steve

[justindad]

If you have unusual case ejection, look at your extractor. Those sometimes need tuning for proper case ejection. They also have a limited life, so might as well get a second one and play!
*
I’ve come across more complete information, but here’s something:
https://m1911.org/technic2.htm

[dearslayer]

One has to remember that if they change spring weights in a semi auto their also changing the dynamics of what designing engineers(people far more knowledgeable than I) determined what works best in a particular handgun? So changer beware?
Steve

The very reason I put the original springs back in.

[dearslayer]

If you have unusual case ejection, look at your extractor. Those sometimes need tuning for proper case ejection. They also have a limited life, so might as well get a second one and play!
*
I’ve come across more complete information, but here’s something:
https://m1911.org/technic2.htm

The extractor is actually new. I replaced it when I changed out the springs. The " tuning " looks interesting.

[oldsalt444]

The most accurate load for my wad gun is 3.8 WST under a 200 or 185 LSWC. Bullseye shooters swear by it. A 10-12 recoil spring will make sure it functions properly. Just under 2" groups at 50 yds. Bullseye and VV N310 powders are also premium choices. I don't know any competitors who use 231. Not that it's a bad powder or anything, just that there are better choices.

[Papercidal]

The podcast is spewing horse pucky ... if the boolit is undercharged the boolit will not exit the barrel .
A large pistol primer and no powder will shove the boolit into barrel throat . There will be no catastropic failure the case will not rupture with a powder charge that does not cycle the slide .
Bring a range rod when dealing with low charges and check the barrel every shot to make danged sure the boolit has left the barrel .
This info is from 40 years of shooting and reloading 1911 - 45 acp . 20 years NRA Bullseye Match Competition .
Don't believe what the podcasters are saying ... it's just horse pucky to scare you .
But ...make sure the barrel is clear , boolit stuck in barrel is real when working with powder puff light loads .
Gary

Detonation of a small charge in a large case is something that has been talked about as fact forever (probably because nobody wants to admit that they double charged a case) but has been dismissed as a urban myth by at least several reloading manuals I’ve read and they have tried in vain to duplicate this in the lab.