Winchester 94 XTR in .444

[Warhawk]

I asked this over on the Marlin forum, and thought I would ask here too.

One of my long time goals is about to be realized, I sent off the check today for a Winchester 94 XTR in .444. This gun is unfired, and I think it's going to be fed my handloads, exlusively.

I'm a big fan of the .44 caliber, and load for the .44 Special/Magnum. But I have no experience with the .444 at all. I'm looking for suggestions. I do load .45-70 for a pair of Marlins.

Anything specific to the Winchester .444 that I should know?

I have some Speer 270gr Gold Dots that I will probably use while breaking in the barrel. Then I plan to switch to cast and shoot heavy cast bullets. Any other bullet suggestions?

Is there a specific brand of brass that's best?

Dies? I like Lee collett dies, if they are available but I've never used them on a levergun caliber.

[Dutch4122]

I have the Winchester "Black Shadow" with 20" barrel chambered in .444 Marlin.

Mine is one of the early production guns and came with 1 turn in 12 inch riflling that resembles 12 land micro-groove rifling. The lands & grooves are very smooth and consistant. This thing loves heavy boolits. So far I have shot 280 grn WFNGC's and 330 grn WFNGC's (2,050 fps chronographed) through this carbine and it shows a definate preference for the heavier slugs. I'll be working with 300 grn WFNGC's this spring and hope to get a hunting load worked up that will approach 2,200 fps with them.

Winchester/USRAC produced the .444 on the "Big Bore" frame in three models that I know of: Black Shadow, Timber Carbine, and XTR in that order. I have seen rates of twist quoted as 1 in 12, 1 in 20, and 1 in 25. Supposedly there are very early production run guns out there made with the 1 in 38 twist; but I have not seen one or personally talked to anybody who has one, so that may be an "internet rumor."

With that being said, my first bit of advice would be to confirm your rate of twist when you get the rifle. Mine had the rate of twist listed on the tag. If the rifling is of the faster twists mentioned than it should work great with the heavier slugs over 300 grains. If you find that it is a 1 turn in 38" barrel you may end up limited to boolits weighing 300 grains and below; only trial and error will tell. Some report fine accuracy with boolits over 300 grains in the 1 in 38 Marlins and some say they don't work.

When you slug the bore, don't be surprised if the slug measures out at .431" Also, mine will chamber up to a .434" slug seated in a dummy case. So I went with .001" under that and I size the boolits at .433" in my Star Lube Sizer. The gun loves the .433" boolits and I would recommend that you set yours up to shoot a boolit that is .001" under the largest diameter it will easily chamber. That should be .001" or .002" over the bore diameter and will be an aid to accuracy.

My gun is very picky with the cartridge overall length. Any boolit with a nose to crimp of .320" will barely feed and many times will "hang up" on the way up from the tube through the action. For this reason I have settled on using boolits with a nose to crimp length of .315" and they feed like a dream.

I bought R-P brass as it was a lot cheaper than Hornady brass at the time I ordered it. Been very happy with the R-P brass.

My gun really likes H-4198 with the heavy slugs mentioned, so that should be a good powder to start with.

Never have used the Lee collet dies, so I can't comment on them. I use RCBS .444 Marlin dies and have been very happy with them.

Hope this helps, :mrgreen:

[S.R.Custom]

I have the Winchester "Black Shadow" with 20" barrel chambered in .444 Marlin. Mine is one of the early production guns and came with 1 turn in 12 inch riflling...

Are you sure about that? Mine is 1:20...

And yeah, the Winchester .444s are very sensitive to OAL. I had to grind a "reverse feed ramp" on the receiver where the mag tube comes in just to get the thing to feed SAAMI length cartridges.

[Dutch4122]

Are you sure about that? Mine is 1:20...


Yep, factory tag with the rifle that listed barrel length, weight, etc. said "Rate of Twist: 1:12"

Looking down the 20" barrel it is obvious that the twist runs just a bit more that 1 and 1/2 complete turns.

[6pt-sika]

I accumulated no less then 12 rifles that are chambered for the 444 Marlin cartridge ! All of them are Marlin levers except one H&R Handi rifle !

I shoot cast in nine of them with varying results !

At the moment I have 8 rifles that have the slow twist micro barrels and they have a little trouble handling bullets over 315 grains cast from air cooled wheel weights ! I may have remedied that by water quenching though but thats another story !

The other rifle I shoot cast in is the relatively new and discontinued 444P which has the 1-20 twist with ballard rifling and it has handled bullets up to 330 grains so far with ease !


For jacketed I've shoot alot of weights from 240-300 and they did well in most all of the other rifles !

I used to be hung up on the Nosler 250 Partition and I still think it's a great bullet !

But since then I've had good success with the 265 Hornady , 270 Speer , 300 Speer , 300 Hornady XTP , 300 Nosler and am about to try the Swift 280 !

All in all the 444's I've worked with so far have been pretty pleasent to deal with !

[S.R.Custom]

Yep, factory tag with the rifle that listed barrel length, weight, etc. said "Rate of Twist: 1:12"

Wow. I just did the Greenhill calc on that, and if you ever wanted to shoot an 831 grain bullet, you're golden! :smile:

[Dutch4122]

Wow. I just did the Greenhill calc on that, and if you ever wanted to shoot an 831 grain bullet, you're golden! :smile:

LOL! Thats Kewl, I wonder if the slug would fill the casing, or leave me with enough powder capacity for 1 or 2 grains of bullseye? I'd sure like to see the size of the mold blocks!:kidding:

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have just bought a NIB recently made Marlin with a 1 in 20" with Ballard rifling. I was going to do a comparo between that and my 1977 vintage 444S, but I got a real good offer on it and let it go.

I have always fancoed one of the 444Big Bores and will buy one if I ever come accross a sample. I was sure that they were 1 in 20" but a 1 in 12" one would be the bees knees.

A big bore 444 falls into the same category as a Reminton 788 in 30/30 or 44Mag or a 92 in 25/20, rifles I'll buy if i ever see one.

MIck.

[helice]

I have the XTR and admire it considerably. I learned form Paco Kelly and Chuck Hawks that the Winchester Big Bore is one tough customer. THe 375 Winchester was loaded to 52K CUP so it is assumed that this rifle would take the same pressures. Marlins are rated some where around 45K CUP I believe. Not that that made a difference for me cause when I got to the top Marlin loads it had enough recoil to satisfy my need for it. I've loaded a number of LBT boolits for it from a stubby custom 166 grain Ojival Wadcutter to the 300 WFN. I've loaded the fast pistol powders like Red Dot (The Load) and 700x to the heavy ReL-7. My Winchester has had no trouble handling any of them but it likes the 429244 Ray Thompson the best. I Think you're going to like it. Keep writing! Helice

[Warhawk]

I've been keeping up on all the replies. I'm going to have to dig deep into my loading "stuff" out in the shop and see what I have in the way of gas check .44 caliber bullets.

But there isn't any rush, I'm going in for back surgery next week and will be down for a while. Might be quite a while before I'm up to shooting the big boomers again.

[Warhawk]

Update on the 94 XTR in .444. The rifle was damaged in shipping (broken stock) but Midwest Gun Works came through with a new replacement stock with great wood. I am still gathering components for it, and have not fired it yet. But I thought I'd show a few pics.

Top to Bottom
Win 94 .444
Win Wells Fargo 30-30
Browning B92 .44 Mag


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/0000001_sm.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/0000002_sm.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/0000006_sm.jpg

[helice]

Warhawk,
Thanks for the pictures. Great wood all around. Don't you just love the Lever Gun.
Keep writin', I'm learnin". Helice

[Boomer Mikey]

You're going to love the Winchester 94 XTR Big Bore!

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/The+.444+Marlin

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_6_50/ai_115495759

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

The Beartooth Bullets technotes reports cover the 444's capability very well. To fully appreciate the 444 one must love high energy loads.

Have fun,

Boomer :Fire:

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo Boomer, thanks for the beartooth links, good information, :lovebooli