What I did to my Shotguns

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have posted most of this in various threads but I am going to post it all on one thread so people can see what I did based on my experiences in 7 Tactical Shotgun Classes at Front Sight and shooting Local 3 Gun Shoots with these 3 Mossberg 500's. Everything is directly applicable to M590's and 590 A1's, and most of it will work on Rem 870's and others as well.

The first two classes were brutal, and I came home beat up pretty bad. I'm talkin' Seriously Bruised Shoulder and on the Second 4 day course the whole right side of my face was black when I got home. I then figured out how to keep my cheek weld on the gun, as every time I didn't, I got smacked in the chops.

By the Third Class I had the gun pretty much sussed out and had a Decent Idea of what to do with it. This was with the 20" M500 my first Tac Shotgun.

This stuff works and was arrived at by Trial and Error from both the classes and local 3 gun shoots. It could save you a lot of bruises.

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The guns are a 20" Tactical M500 7+1 and a 18.5" HD M500 5+1. Both guns are set up exactly the same way except the HD gun doesn't ordinarily have a sling attached, but it does have the capability.

Both guns have Open Rifle Sights and I like the Green Williams Fiber Optic Front Sights because in the sunlight they are impossible to miss. At night with a light on the gun they are also impossible to miss. Unfortunately the Front Sight on the Barrel of the HD gun is solid, and I haven't figured out a way to install one on it yet. I have them on Rifles, Pistols and 3 Shotguns.

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Both guns have Brownell's High Ridge Safeties installed and they were dehorned as using them in their stock form would result in Bloody Thumbs. One significant advantage of the Mossberg platform over others is the placement of the safety which makes the gun Ambidextrous.

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Both guns have Magpul Furniture Black on one and Gray on the other, and both guns have the Magpul to Remington Recoil Pad Adapters and Pads. These pads are much larger and squishier than the pad that comes with the Magpul stocks. Also to insure a more squared up stance to the target all the Stock Spacers are absent. LOP is 12.5". I am 5'11" These stocks and Fore ends have the best Ergonomics for operating a shotgun I have seen, and are well worth the $100 or so bucks. They are easy to install and adjust to your body type.

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Both guns have been completely internally deburred and run very smooth. Can't really show that, but trust me, they run slick.

Continued on next Post.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Continued from above:

Both guns have Brown Coat Tactical 6 round Velcro Side Saddles attached to the left side of the receiver. They can be removed from the gun in seconds and replaced in seconds as well. With one on the gun and 2 in your pocket with a loaded gun you'll have 24-26 rounds available to deal with whatever. These are among the best quality products of this type I have seen and the price is right. They come in 2,4,6,and 8 hole versions.

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Slings: I make my own slings out of 1.5" wide Nylon Belting just like 5.11 TDU Belts are made from. These are wider than normal and spread the load of the gun out over a larger area so as to decrease the fatigue of a thinner strap.

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They are held to the gun using Grove-Tec Limited Rotation Quick Disconnect Swivel Sockets, threaded into the holes in the sides of the stock.
When carrying the gun Cross Body the sling is attached to the outside socket which then keeps the gun pulled into you while standing as opposed to falling away from you. If Conventional Carry is used then the sling is attached to the left side of the stock so once again the gun is held against you while carrying. In either case the gun lays flat against you and requires the least amount on hands on to maintain control of it. This reduces fatigue which causes deterioration of your concentration. You don't want attention on anything other than "Running the Gun, Finding Cover" and "Acquiring Targets and Dropping them! " Anything else will get you killed.

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Weapons Lights: Both guns have a 3" piece of Pic Rail mounted under the Fore End for mounting a Streamlight TLR-1. You need a light on an HD gun because you will probably need it most at night so you don't shoot your wife or kids. I like these because they are as good or better than anything else out there and reasonably priced. They also are easily removed as you don't need them in the day time.

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Now one of the big items: Both guns have had their barrels modified with the Vang Comp Process. www.vangcomp.com . This process consists of lengthening the Forcing Cone in front of the chamber to 3". Backboring the barrel to .745, and the reamer used has the last 2" tapering back down to .730. Also Porting consisting of 62 holes which reduces muzzle rise.

This improves the patterning of Buckshot dramatically. Both guns Pattern Regular 00 Buckshot into 7" at 25 yards which makes Buckshot viable out to 50 yards. This also spreads out the recoil impulse over a longer time and reduces "Perceived Recoil". These guns are a joy to shoot and I can easily shoot 200 rounds in a day with no after effects wearing Shorts and a Tee Shirt.

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Now the last item,,, Ammo: There is no need for anything more powerful for HD or actual "Tactical" use, than Regular LOW RECOIL Buckshot or Slugs. I use Federal mostly or my own loaded ammo. For Target Use in the classes we use Walmart Winchester or Federal 12 ga. #8 birdshot loads which are normally $21.74/100,,, hard to beat .22 cents a round. I prefer the Federal Ammo as the crimps are finished better than the Winchester ammo which aids in feeding, but either will suffice.

This is what I do to my Shotguns. You can feel free to use any of my suggestions or all of them, but know this. I am super finicky about all my guns and the way that they interact with my body. I spend lots of time just fondling them and finding all the little hotspots that in a intense training environment will come to the surface and wear holes in you and make you miserable or just annoy the hell out of you.

All these improvements were arrived at after finding inadequacies in previous setups, Strictly Trial and Error. After 7, 2 and 4 day Shotgun Classes at Front Sight and approximately 180+ hours of training. I can go thru a class and not have any bruises or holes worn thru my skin or any discomfort whatsoever. I never wear more than a Tee shirt and Shorts at these classes.

All this started as a result of touching off a couple of High Base Slugs from behind a bale of hay at a local 3 Gun Shoot which resulted in 3 trips to my Chiropractor to get a rib put back in. I swore I was not going to let my ignorance of Combat Shotgun Technique and Setup to persist. I got training and lots of it. My guns evolved to the point where they are a "Joy to Shoot" and don't hurt me. Yours can be like this too, but it is more than just modifying the gun, You need the training to go with IT!!! www.frontsight.com

Nobody was born knowing how to do anything, you need to be taught everything. That's why we have Parents and Schools!

What this Set Up does for me, is allow me to concentrate on the techniques of gun handling and accuracy that I wouldn't be able to concentrate on with lesser prepared guns. Your guns will evolve just as mine did until you won't be worrying about recoil or any kind of pain. You can’t concentrate on training if you are getting the snot beat out of you every time you pull the trigger. Also going to one class and thinking you are set for life is pretty short sighted. You will need several runs thru to get it as muscle memory takes time to soak in.

I'm going to #7 soon! And I come back seriously better each time. Also Shotgun Classes are by far the most fun, nothing like blasting away at a steel target 15 yards away and seeing it get punished and knowing what kind of power you are dishing out.

Life is too short to put up with ill fitting, or poorly prepared guns.

Hope this helps some of you figure out how to set up these guns.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's pics of my latest project.

It is a Vintage ($300) Montgomery Wards Mossberg 500. I call it the "Monkeyberg." It started life as a Field Grade Shotgun with Wooden Furniture.

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It came with a 28" Vent Rib Barrel that I cut to 18.5" and sent to Vang Comp for threading for Rem Choke Tubes.

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I used a Limbsaver Recoil Pad on this one as Midway didn't have any Remington ones in stock but I think it will work just fine.

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I used William's Clamp On Fire Sights on the Vent Rib.

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I also got a Carlson's Rifled Choke Tube for it just to see how it shoots slugs thru that. They are supposed to work really well and mimic the Paradox Guns of 125 years ago. We'll see how that works. It should improve Slug Accuracy which is one of the primary loads for this gun.
Hence the Rifle Sights.

IMHO Rifle Sights are a must have on a Tactical Shotgun, you are essentially fielding a .73 caliber Rifle or Musket depending on how you look at it. Once you shoot the gun enough you will see that Sights are just as fast on target as a bead and much more accurate with slugs. And they are adjustable.

I'm a Big Fan of Carlson's Choke tubes as they are the best bang for the buck out there.

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There is one other doodad I used and that is a Combo Front Sling Mount/ Pic Rail Section from GG&G and it made attaching a Sling to the gun in the proper place easy.

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Continued,,,,

[dverna]

Good thread Randy.

[megasupermagnum]

I absolutely love frankenmossberg's. We have come to very similar conclusions, although mine are much more hunting orientated than yours. I completely agree on the side saddle. A velcro attachment is the way to go. It's plenty secure, and you can take it off whenever you want. We ended up with similar safeties. I use the one from NDZ, which doesn't need modification. One thing you sometimes run into on a Mossberg is a very stiff safety. The reason for this is too long of a spring for the detent ball. I found the best fix is to take the spring to a bench grinder, and grind it so that the bottom of the ball is about even with the surface of the frame. It only takes a second, and makes a huge difference in the safety feel. One advantage to the 590 is that it comes with a bayonet lug on the barrel. This a great attachment point for a sling. I'm not convinced on the Vang Comp backboring. I'd have to see a bunch of pattern testing to see that it does better than a normal barrel with an IC choke threaded in. I'd say the two biggest differences in our setups is the rear stock and the sights, and it is likely because one effects the other. I too like sights for slugs, but I'm going about it a different way. I'm after very low profile wide sights, think dangerous game rifle wide V sights. Not the most precise, but pretty good, and very fast. I'm also trying to make the rear flip down to give options. Again, more hunting orientated, than purely defensive use. Plus stocks fit everyone different. I do have one question on the flashlight though. Is there any particular reason you chose to mount it directly underneath at 6 o'clock? You don't have it mentioned, but do you have a separate switch for the light? I made my own mount high on the forend. I'm a lefty, so I mounted it on the right side, up at maybe 1 o'clock, almost touching the barrel. It is a Maglite Mag-Tac with the button on the rear. I have it mounted on a small picatinny rail that was originally meant for your M-lock, but I milled the back off, then milled the groove into my forend, and screwed it on with a backplate. It is a rock solid mount. I got it so I can easily hit the light with my thumb, but I am considering going to a separate switch, one because the switch is a bit small when trying to be fast, and two, my light can only be used left handed. When I did this, I made 3 different forends. One up high, which I kept, one at 90 degrees 3 o'clock, and one straight down like yours at 6 o'clock. I did not give the bottom mount much thought since I could not hit the switch as it was. The 3 o'clock was terrible. It made the gun super wide, and was not easy to use. Up real high I find has the main advantage for me is that it lights up the sights. It's a great coyote gun.

[bdicki]

Because of the twist direction rifled choke tubes tighten with every shot until they are hard to remove, keep checking it while your shooting.

[Outer Rondacker]

Looks great. I have gone a different route. I run a 13+1 set up with an additional 22 rounds on the gun. I have cut the brass bead off the barel and filed it smooth so just the brass nut is showing. Now it cannot get caught on anything and lets face it its a shotgun. Point and shoot this gun is not setup to bust clays but it will. Lets face it if I empty the gun and have to reload BLANK is hit the fan. I kept with the factory front barrel looking fore stock. It came with the pistol grip and I swapped it out for a black syn youth with red rubber butt pad. Removed the heat shield to drop the weigh and its not legal in NYS. Updated the feed ramps and its a fun gun to kill them stinking pumpkins.

You have a nice looking rig. They are fun to build. Thanks for sharing.

[frkelly74]

I can almost feel what all that recoil would do to me. My approach was to load low recoil loads and they will still rock you after a while. I will have to look into a pad for my gun and one of the safety buttons with a bump. It has an old hardened rubber pad that is not too effective. Thank you for a good article.

[dverna]

Randy had given good advice about low recoil loads. I do not need megablasters at the ranges I will use a SD shotgun. I had three Mossys until my buddy begged me to buy one I had modified so now down to two. I am looking for another and will do as Randy has done on the last gun. Buy a used field gun and modify it to suit me.

I am too cheap to have mine worked over by Vang Comp. But I live in the boonies so, for a HD need past 25 yards, I have an AR standing next to each shotgun. I doubt there is much effect by back boring but cannot prove it so just an opinion. $255 for the modification is not that expensive but I used to be able to buy a used 500 for that...LOL. If I competed, I would likely have one gun done to gain a bit more performance. For HD, in my situation, it is unlikely to matter. My preferred load is buckshot for ranges to about 25 yards and better patterns at 50 yards are not important for my needs.

I mention this not to dismiss what Randy has posted but to illustrate your needs may modify what will work for you. If I had to use buckshot 50 yards, I would first pattern the barrel and see if making the investment is warranted. In my case, low recoil loads address the recoil gremlin so any small reduction afforded by back boring are unlikely to be important. I am not going to unleash 10 rounds during a home invasion.

BTW, I have low recoil slugs but never load them. I have a couple on the side saddle in case I ever needed to shoot through a door (I have solid wood doors) but have been thinking about replacing them with buckshot loads so I do not load them by mistake if I ever had to do a reload under stress.

Lastly, heed Randy's advice for a shorter LOP. I first did that on my CAS shotgun where speed is important and a shorter LOP is an advantage.

[Outer Rondacker]

That is why I shoot the mini shells. Twice as many fit in the gun and have very little kick. Not like a defensive gun needs to reach out to 100 yrds with thump. Only need to stop a bad pumpkin up and personal.

[Baltimoreed]

I build 2 inch WWAA 12ga loads that will function in my guns and give me an extra round in the mag. I use them for Wild Bunch matches in my 1897’s and M12 guns.

[frkelly74]

I build 2 inch WWAA 12ga loads that will function in my guns and give me an extra round in the mag. I use them for Wild Bunch matches in my 1897’s and M12 guns.
I have wondered about shortening regular shells. Please post what you have done to them.

[dverna]

The short shells are interesting. My concern is reliable feeing in a pump which is what I use for HD. One hang up
at the wrong time could be lethal. I was going to try a couple of hundred but never got around to it.

Randy, have you ever tried them in the Mossy 500's?

[Outer Rondacker]

That is what I shoot mine out of mossy 500 with a adapter dumahjiggy thing.

[Electrod47]

You need to print this story (study) whatever w/pics and send it to one of the better gun rags and make some money. Its a good article and better reading than I have seen in them for sometime. This is the kind of article we used to cherish instead of 2 page articles 90 percent about about when John Moses Browning got out of diapers and blah blah blah. thanks for your share.

[Baltimoreed]

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I have wondered about shortening regular shells. Please post what you have done to them.
Kelly74, I start by using a cut off tool I made out of a piece of 22 barrel and an exacto blade mounted in it to trim my ugly 12 ga shells to about 2 3/8 inches. I then load them as I would my standard 12 ga [same amt powder-same amt shot] but instead of using the hot pink CB0175 wads I use red CB1138 which have a shorter foot. I have an old Pacific DL150 press that I’ve adjusted to work with these. I did have to shorten the final crimp die and add a spacer for the starter crimp station. I found an aluminum crimp die from another junk press that I shortened to reach farther into the shorter shell. I also add an over shot card punched from my primer sleeves as you can see my folds don’t necessarily meet. But they work and give me an extra round in my mags. They end up being 2 inches long. They cycle fine in my Marlin pumps and ‘97s but sometimes in my M12s the front of the shell hits the front edge of the ejection port unless the gun is slightly tilted left. Been making these for years.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'll start with answers to Mega's Post. First: the safety can be lightened up by simply backing the Screw off 1/4 turn. That lightens the tension on the detent ball enough to make the safety easy to operate when you are going to be doing it 500 times in a few days.

The 20" Gun was my first one and it had a 18" bbl. Then Brownell's was selling the 20" bbl and mag tube complete with Rifle sights for $116!. That's what is on that gun. It is 7+1. It was my first one to be Vang Comped and between that and the big Remington Recoil Pad the gun was night and day different, and it was easy to see!!!. Add to that actually learning to keep my cheek weld in place made that gun a cream puff to shoot. Even the head shotgun instructor at Front Sight shot it and saw the difference in two shots! He's a customer now too.

Don V: The Vang Comp Process makes these guns pattern 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. At 5 yards its about 1.5" which means if you are going to take a Hostage Shot with your wife in the way you don't have to worry so much about hitting her in the face. This is also where the rifle sights come in. The POA on a Hostage shot is the Outside Ear. With a Regular Cylinder Bore you are looing at 15" at 15 yards or about 5" at 5 yards which means you probably have to hold off a little to be safe?. Mine is like a ragged hole, and I can remove a good portion of your face easily.

The second gun was a used Field Gun I picked up for $160. I sold the wood furniture for $150 and bought the Magpul Furniture (gray). I found a 18" bbl with sights on it on eBay and sent it to Vang Comp. That gun has a couple thousand rounds thru it and is also a Cream Puff. It is primarily my HD gun that sits next to the bed "Cruiser Ready" Chamber Empty Mag Full and Safety Off. With 9 rounds of Buckshot on the gun and 2 slugs. I rack the slide and grab another round off the sidesaddle and I'm full up and ready to engage. It is a 5+1. So when sitting it has 5 in the mag and 6 on the side saddle.

The Light on those guns is a Streamlight TLR1 and it has a Treadle Switch on the back that is Momentary Contact in one direction and full on the other way. I mount them on the bottom of the fore end so that switch is easy to get to and I can do it with either hand. Also it doesn't foul the sling in that position. All three guns have the same set up. You can also quickly take them off during the day when you don't need a light on the gun.

The Third Gun is a Montgomery Wards Mossberg 500 I got it last summer and immediately knew what I wanted to do to it. It came with a 28" Vent rib barrel. I cut it off to 18.5" and sent it to Vang Comp for only "Threading" for Rem Choke Tubes. I wanted the bore to remain .730 to see how it would shoot slugs, so no Back Boring. I wish I'd had them lengthen the forcing cone though because the Recoil impulse is notably harsher than the other two guns. Still not bad, but I do notice the difference. It has a Limbsaver Recoil Pad because Midway didn't have any of the Remington ones in stock during the Remington break up. I also wanted to see if a Rifled Choke Tube would deliver any good accuracy with Lee or Lyman slugs.

Also I am going to Front Sight with both the Short Guns next week to see if I can DG the Tactical Shotgun course with a Pump Gun? I already did it with my A5.

There is a lot more to this thread that I am essentially transferring over from Calguns. so stay tuned ! At least the guys here know what I'm talking about.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

I also just noticed you kept the original screw for the safety. Again for anyone interested, that screw can be removed with a flat blade screwdriver. Just push down really hard. The safety from NDZ comes with a new screw, a socket cap screw, which is all around easier to deal with. I'm sure turning 1/4 turn out works for lightening the switch. Grinding the spring works too. Just using the thing probably breaks it in over time as well.

Pro tip: if you are going to replace the safety, buy an extra detent ball or two. You WILL loose one if you don't. A #4 or #5 bird shot works in a pinch.

[megasupermagnum]

I hope you don't mind me posting some pictures of my own Randy.

This is what I've done to mine. The biggest change was the flashlight mount. I did this on an endmill. I have never seen a better flashlight mount for my purposes than this. It's fairly simple to do if you have a mill. You could probably do just as effective a job by hand, but it would be ugly. The keys are that the rail has a slot to keep it rotating. The other is the backing plate. Notice one side is slightly thinner than the other. This is to make clearance for the forend nut. Then drill and tap it. The mount itself is a Magpul M-lock, and all I did was mill the M-lock nubs off the back. A file would do just as good. If you can't do all that, an M-Lok forend is pretty good, but I've get to see one that allows you to mount it nice and tight to the barrel like I prefer. These pictures show the forend at 90 degrees. The next pictures show it at about 1 o clock, which is much better.

https://i.ibb.co/pvDXtFy/0131201948a.jpg (https://ibb.co/pvDXtFy)

https://i.ibb.co/mDFX7j9/0131201948.jpg (https://ibb.co/mDFX7j9)

Next up is the sights I've been trying. These are flip down sights from NECG sights. These are the only sights I could get my hands on that when flipped down are below the line of sight completely. There are two problems with this. #1, I couldn't find a gunsmith willing to mill a slot deep enough. Before anyone panics, Mossberg for decades have sold "slugster" barrels with a Lyman flip sight dovetailed about .090" deep, right over the chamber. Unfortunately the gunsmith I took it to that agreed, got scared, and only did it about .050" deep, and it didn't have enough grab to hold the sight. It was then soldered in place, which worked great. The other problem is they have a small leaf spring that is what holds the blade up. It's just a small area, and only needs maybe .010" of clearance to work. Well I had him install it so the sight flips back, like most guns. What I then found is that many times with heavy recoiling rounds the sight would start to flip forward. The proper way to mount flip sighs on a heavy recoiling gun is so it flips forward, so recoil does not effect it. Well due to that spring, I couldn't simply flip the sight around. I would also need to take it back to a gunsmith to mill another recess. The only other sight I ever found that might work is made by Benelli. It is an even better sight too, since it is a small dovetail, and it is height adjustable. Benelli sells it on one of their 3 gun models, and it flips down level with the vent rib. It is sweet. Unfortunately they only sell that gun in Europe, and they flat out refused to sell me the rear sight. First is an unfished NECG sight sitting in the dovetail of my 590. My original one was shaped more appropriately, and I filed a wide V into it like a dangerous game rifle express sight. Second is the Benelli flip sight I REALLY want to get my hands on.

https://i.ibb.co/CsdZXyW/IMG-20220325-002831405.jpg (https://ibb.co/CsdZXyW)

https://i.ibb.co/QQsscVr/m2-sp-4-63847.webp (https://ibb.co/QQsscVr)

Here's some close ups of how my flashlight works. It is a decent setup. I may try a separate switch for the light. This works, but during rapid fire, it isn't completely natural to keep your thumb on that momentary switch. I like the high flashlight mount, which lights up the bead. Great for night time coyotes.

https://i.ibb.co/HnWY0xL/IMG-20220325-002936060.jpg (https://ibb.co/HnWY0xL)

https://i.ibb.co/pzsBKjh/IMG-20220325-002955456.jpg (https://ibb.co/pzsBKjh)

Now I've been shooting this with the original 20" barrel, which is great. I had it threaded for Tru choke. My advice is go with a Rem choke. This next picture is it with a 24" barrel I found for it. It doesn't have a bayonet lug, but I don't use tactical slings anyway. As I said, this is a very hunting orientated gun, and I'm considering going to this 24". It makes a surprising difference in muzzle blast, and I just seem to like the feel of it for shooting, especially on clays. There so little difference between the 20" and 24", it's hard to choose.

https://i.ibb.co/2PzDjhN/IMG-20220325-003108102.jpg (https://ibb.co/2PzDjhN)

One last tid bit, if keeping this by your bed, be aware of what can get into the muzzle. For a long time I kept mine muzzle up. That is until I got attic flies really bad. A lot of them ended up down the barrel. Good thing I did not shoot, it would have been a barrel obstruction for sure. 3"+ of nothing but dead flies. I now keep mine muzzle down, and a bit of tape over the muzzle would not hurt either.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Excellent Post Mega!

OK moving right along,,,

What I've done with my shotguns goes way beyond Gun Work and Mods and extends deeply into the ammunition. Most of my Ammo loading has been concentrated in Reloading Birdshot for Clays Shooting (different guns) and loading various types of slugs for use in both Smooth Bore Barrels and Rifled Barrels. We have discussed a lot of this on the "Casting and Reloading for Shotguns" forum above.

I have several slugs that I shoot a lot of.

1. The 1 oz. Lee Drive Key Slug which I cast myself.
2. The Lyman 525 Sabot Slug which looks like a Giant Air Gun Pellet. I cast myself
3. Round Balls which are loaded into Regular Trap Loads, by replacing the shot. All cast myself.

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4. STI Sabot Slugs which have proven to produce exceptional accuracy.

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5. A Non Toxic version of the STI Sabot Slug certified in CA for Hunting. (Left)

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6. Various Russian designed slugs which can be heavy and useful for big stuff.

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7.Numerous Factory Loaded Slugs from Federal, Brenneke and Lightfield.

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8. Italian Factory Made Slugs from BPI

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Here's a Turkish made slug that duplicates Brenneke's KO slug

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This has been going on for the last 5 years, and I have had some success, and I have also learned a bunch about loading slugs and how to make them shoot. Pretty much all of them have certain uses, like the Lee Slugs and Pumpkin Balls which are used primarily for practice and 3 Gun Shoots in Smooth Bore Barrels. Others for hunting, and some for SD/HD

More to come:

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK,,, This comes under the heading of "What I do with my shotguns." as opposed to "What I did to them." The whole idea after you get the gun set up is to use it for something. In my case, that is going to classes, Participating in Local 3 Gun Matches, and God forbid, Home Defense or an Active Shooter Response.

It has come to my attention that most people don't understand the importance of Port Loading a Shotgun, or how to do it properly.

Tactical Shotguns are Ammo Hungry Beasts. Port Loading is the way you keep the Hungry Beast fed when in a dynamic situation. All should agree that it is counterproductive, if not downright stupid, to stand in the open while reloading your magazine and being shot at? It simply takes too long to accomplish and you are super exposed and probably won't make it home.

However it is possible to keep rounds going down range in a relatively quick manner by Single Loading or Ejection Port Loading the gun. After Learning the steps and practicing to eliminate as much wasted motion as possible it is possible to get a shot off every 1-2 seconds for as long as you have ammo readily available. Usually off a Side Saddle or Shell Holder on your belt or vest.

So in order to do this you first must learn how to grasp the individual Shells.
You do it like this,,, clasping the shell on its ends with your Index and Pinky Fingers with your other two fingers behind the shell. This hold on the rounds facilitates either loading into the magazine or into the Ejection Port. Just get in the habit of doing it this way.

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I prefer the Velcro Side Saddle for holding my Extra Rounds on the gun, as they are the quickest way to access rounds and when they get empty you simply rip them off the gun and slap another one on. To pull rounds out of the side saddle you grasp the front shell with your Thumb and Ring finger and pull down and then transition to the hold described above.

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Next you will tip the gun slightly to the right to better access the Ejection Port. Note: you are feeding the gun from the underside not over the top.

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Then push the round into the port,,, the reason why you load from underneath is because it stages your hand in position for running the slide.

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Then push forward on the Slide or hit the Bolt Release on a SA gun. and you are ready to fire. Note: All of this was done with the gun on your shoulder held up by your strong side hand/arm. This will take a little practice and development of some muscle memory. By keeping the gun at eye level you eliminate precious seconds from your follow up presentation.

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The last thing in the process is ejecting the spent round as quickly as possible. This is done by what is known as "Riding the Recoil."

On a Slide Action Shotgun the only thing keeping the gun "in battery" is the Bolt Release. When the gun is in battery the bolt is locked to the barrel shroud and when the gun is fired this prevents the bolt from flying open. However this all happens in Milliseconds. As soon as the hammer drops the bolt release is disengaged and the slide is free to open the bolt. That split second after the gun fires is where you "should have" been running the slide and ejecting the spent round!

With a loaded magazine you would rack the slide to eject the spent round and then immediately close it to be ready to fire. With an Empty Magazine you only Rack the slide back and leave the bolt open and then go thru your Port Loading Sequence. As you are closing the bolt you are also coming on target and pulling the Trigger as soon as the Front Sight comes to bare on your next target. This all happens in less than a second or so. It does take some practice, actually lots of practice,,, but it is doable and if I can do it at 72 you can too!

With a Semi Auto Gun all the round handling is the same and the only difference is hitting the bolt release after you stuff the round in the Ejection Port. Obviously the gun takes care of ejecting the spent rounds. The one exception to Ejection Port loading is the Browning Auto 5 with the "Speed Feed" feature. On that gun you push the round into the empty magazine and it automatically puts it into the chamber,,, Right NOW!,,, and the gun is ready to fire. This is faster than Port Loading the gun, and it is by far the fastest gun to Single Load !

So I hope this little tutorial will help some of you learn something new that is useful.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK moving right along. Part of using a Shotgun for Home Defense might involve taking a Hostage Shot. Your loved one might be the Hostage?

Probably shouldn't screw this up?

I have been taught that the way to do this is to Aim at the Bad Guy's visible ear. This is where Rifle Sights are a distinct advantage, and if you have taken the time to sight your gun in properly, you should have a good idea of where it will shoot. If you only have a bead then you should have figured out if you need to compensate for POA versus POI.

Distance to the target makes a big difference here because the buckshot pattern is opening up pretty fast on a cylinder bore barrel. At 15 yards you are looking at a 15" pattern, and at 5 yards that pattern will be about 5". If the guy only has half his face visible then you would probably need to hold off about an inch or so so the pattern doesn't catch your wife. Obviously a tighter pattern would be beneficial.

Here's a target shot with a Vang Comped Barrel at 5 yards with some Federal 000 Buckshot I had. That stray shot lower left was marked from another shot. All 8 pellets went thru the same big hole. Also if the Bad guy had presented more of his face I would have been holding farther to the right just to make sure he didn't twitch as he was falling away.

298267

You can see this shot would have been a fight ender. The wad did hit the hostage in the shoulder area which would hurt but not too bad. Now think about what would have happened with a 5" pattern? That may have been a problem for you, and especially if the Hostage was not related to you and they caught a pellet or two. Why do you think Cops hesitate when presented with a Hostage Situation? Maybe Liability? Most don't have a Vang Comped Barrel on their shotgun most don't even have Rifle Sights. (though most departments have gotten the word on both Vang Comp and Rifle Sights.)

At more than 5 yards, like 7-10 yards your pattern is opening up rapidly, and you probably shouldn't take the shot. Both My Vang Comped Barrels pattern that same 000 Buckshot into 7" at 25 yards. At 15 yards that is a 3 1/2- 4" pattern. I can hold off a little to the left and take the shot with confidence that I won't shoot her especially if the range is shorter which I am going to be trying to reduce by slowly walking towards them. Once I get within 6-8 yards I am going to shoot as soon as I see an opening. I have already made the decision to shoot, and as soon as I see the sight picture I want, I will break the shot. There is no time for thinking or talking here. There is only time for decisive action.

I remember the scene in the Good, Bad and Ugly, where Eli Wallach was in the bath tub, and a guy comes in waving a pistol and jabbering about how he is going to kill him. Wallach calmly lifts his gun out of the water and shoots the guy and says "If you are going to shoot,,, shoot, don't talk! Nothing could be more to the point in this case.

Decisive Action is required, and lots of practice is the only way to get to the point where you have enough confidence to pull it off. Knowing what you are doing, and having a gun that you understand perfectly are two of the key points here. Having the balls to pull the trigger under the pressure that is present here, is the third, but only if you can back it up with the first two key points solidly in place, cuz lives are on the line and screwing it up is NOT an option !!!

I only hope that the only place this ever happens to any of us is on the range. But it is good to have a plan in place Long Before you need it.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

One of the things I do with my Shotguns is go to Training Classes at Front Sight. This is where I learn the vast majority of my Gun Handling, and Shooting Skills

So I went to Front Sight for some training last week. On Thursday we did a "Tactical Awareness Class." It is a new classroom type class and it is still getting tweaked a bit as to content. It concentrated mostly on Avoidance of a Fight and Defensive things to harden your home and lots of Mindset tips. All in all, a good class and I learned lots of new things I had never thought of.

Friday and Saturday were on the Shotgun Range in a Skill Builder Class designed to prep you for a test. My whole purpose for this trip was to DG with a pump gun. ( DG=Distinguished Graduate or 90% shooter) I had already DG'd with a Semi Auto and the Pump Gun is a little more challenging. I shot well at first and both my short M500's ran perfectly, I didn't acclimate well this time over, and the Desert had me for lunch. And so I sucked and didn't achieve my goal.

This class only had 9 people in it and my Bro in Law didn't make the second day as his hands were cramping badly by Lunch on the first day. There was only 2 pump guns in the class, Me and Bro. The rest were Berretta's, Benelli's, and two M930's.

This training emphasizes gun handling and with a Shotgun there is more "manipulation" than with either Rifles or Pistols. Ammo is often loaded one at a time as in the Port Loading Exercise Description above. There are Iterations where you are required to Shoot Multiple Targets under time pressure, do multiple Port Loads under time pressure, do Ammo Changes (Select Slug) and take longer slug shots, and then Clearing Malfunctions at the end of the test. Realistically the entire class could revolve around Port Loading and Shooting Multiples, and Select Slug Shots at 50 and 35 yards as these are the places where there is the most pressure to perform. Anyone can hit one target from 15 or 20 yards in 1.5 seconds.

The test goes like this. First you shoot 3 Select Slug shots from 50 yards. For this you have the gun loaded with buckshot and at the beep you load one slug into the magazine, rack the action, and then take the shot at the target with a Slug. The targets are painted black so you can see if you hit it or not. You do this 3 times at 50 and then 35 yards. This is done as a group with everyone shooting at once. I missed one of the 50 yard Shots, so I'm down -5 already. I can only go down 8 more points and I lost the DG!

Then you move forward to the 20 yard line and take one shot each from the Low Ready, High Ready and Field Ready, then move forward to the 15 yard line. Now this is done individually, with the instructor standing right behind you on both the 20 and 15 yard lines. Got all these shots..

Next you shoot the Multiples. This consists of Shooting two targets from the ready in 1.6 seconds, then 3 target in 2.1 seconds, and then 4 in a Row in 2.6 seconds. This is where the Semi Autos have a serious advantage over the Pump Guns. I can get all 4 in around 2.0 seconds with my A5, I can get 3 in a row just about every time with the Pump Gun, but 4 in a row with the pump gun is really pushing it. I was close but missed out by about .2 on the time, and they said I had two partial hits which only count as misses. IE: I lost a bunch of points on that one shot iteration. I was late and missed 2 targets.

Next was the Port Loading Drill. On this one you start with a loaded gun, and at the beep you fire, and then port load one round, and then fire again, and then port load again, and finish with a loaded gun. You get 4.2 seconds to do all this, and you do it twice. I bobbled one run thru and was late and another 5 points went down the drain.

Last is the Clearing of Malfunctions. You do each one twice.

You get 1.2 seconds to do a Type 1 Clearance which is firing on and empty chamber or dead round. You just rack and roll the gun and that's it. No Problem . Next is the Type 2 or Stove Pipe, where you have one hanging out of the Ejection Port. This one is done the same way as the Type 1 except you move out of the line of fire while clearing it in 1.4 seconds.
Type 3 is the Failure to Extract or Double Feed. On this one you have a spent round in the chamber that didn't get pulled out and then the gun stuffs another round in behind it. No time limit on this one, you just have to do it right. With the Pump Gun you just rack the slide to lose the double fed round then close hard to grab the spent case, and eject it, and then close to feed in the next good round. NO problem I got all these.

Then you do a Tactical Reload which is nothing more that feeding a round into the magazine in 3.5 seconds. No Problem with this one.

Then Last is an Emergency Reload. On this one you pull the trigger get a click, then rack and get another click, and then port load a round in 3.7 seconds. I bobbled the shell on one and lost some more points.

In the end I finished with a -37 which is just barely in the Graduate 70% zone -38 or less.. Last time did it with a Pump Gun I shot -14 which was one over DG which is -13 or less (Class #3). I shot -11 with my A5 and got DG on Class #4. That was also a few years ago and time is beginning to be a factor.

So all in all I sucked! I should have Dry Practiced all of this many times before I went. If I had I probably would have DG'd this time as the things I need to Dry Practice most are the Port Loads and Multiple Targets. I never seem to Dry Practice Malfunctions either and maybe I should?.

Oh well now I have an excuse to go back for another class. It's all good! And no matter how bad I feel or how good or bad I shoot I always have a real good time!

So that's what I did with my Shotguns last week.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK: My most recent attempt at achieving Nirvana has come back from Vang Comp and I am very happy with the workmanship. I sent them my 24" rifled barrel and had them cut it to 18.5" Lengthen the Forcing Cone, reattach the Front Sight, and Cera-Kote it black. When I picked it up in Las Vegas the day before my recent class I was super impressed. It will fit either one of my short M500's.

Will be shooting it soon so I'll keep you posted.

Randy

[Bloodman14]

Following with interest. Not much of a shotgunner, but may post pics of my 'personalized' Winchester 1300. 20" cylinder bore, synthetic stock and forend (both pistol grip style) and fiber optic turkey style sights. Lots of fun!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tactical Shotguns are no Joke! They essentially become .73 caliber Rifles, and if you look at them with that in mind, you can see how the mods shown above work very well. They are essentially the same types of things you'd do to an AR.

My whole Quest was to eliminate any rough edges that would wear holes in me during a 2 or 4 Day Shotgun class. What this does for you is get rid of anything that diverts your attention from your shooting techniques. If you are getting the snot beat out of you every time you pull the trigger, the only thing you will be learning is how much you don't want to shoot that gun.

I was talking to a guy the other day who was a trainer for the Coast Guard near me. He was telling me that they trained strictly with 3" Magnum 00 Buckshot. I asked him why, And he said because that is what we'd use when boarding a ship. I said so you are teaching basic gun handling and form with Magnum Loads? He said yes that's what they want!!! I said how stupid are they? NO ans.

Then a week later I was at our Range and the Coasty's were there qualifying with their Mossberg 590 A1's. There were women shooting who couldn't break 95 lbs. but even the "he men" couldn't even shoot 40-50% on the Front Sight Shotgun test. Simple reason is that they had never developed any Technique because every time they pulled the trigger they got the snot knocked out of them.
Point being, nobody wanted to be there!

I sacrificed a box of bird shot to them and all I heard was OOH's and Aah's. There is no need for any 12 ga load in the real world above "LOW RECOIL" Buckshot or Slugs and for training, the same with the addition of #8 birdshot which is used to develop the skills of running the gun and ammo manipulation. That's why every one of those shells has "Tactical Slug" or "Tactical Buckshot" printed on the outside!. They are for use in "Tactical Situations" where hitting the target is more important than how much power you can deliver to that target.

Save the Butt Kicker Slugs for Polar Bears and the like, or if you need to shoot a Pick Up Truck!

For some unknown reason there is a segment of the population that thinks absorbing Recoil is cool or makes you a Bigger Man. I completely disagree with this concept as I consider being able to put a Low Recoil Slug on a Man Sized Target at 50 yards more relevant, than missing that same target with 3" Magnum Slugs. The dirt behind the target doesn't care what it got hit with.!

I have arrived at this reasoning by getting the snot knocked out of me several times and seeing what the after effects were. Now I shoot nothing that is above 1300 fps velocity and can shoot my guns all day long with only a Tee Shirt and Shorts and have no marks on me at the end of the day,,, or week for that matter.

Randy

[dverna]

Good post Randy.

[lightload]

I agree with Randy. I wonder what rank in the Coast Guard made this dumb decision? I've fired 100's of other people's buckshot shells. Unless it's low recoil versions, it makes no sense in a light weight security shotgun. I tried some regular buckshot recently out of curiosity in my Stoeger Model 3000 inertia 12 gauge. Every round pushed me backwards.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes, my limit is @1300fps and I really don't like going over 1200 fps as nothing I shoot with these rounds will ever know the difference. The problem here is trying to teach people who have never shot a Combat Shotgun how to run it efficiently, when every time they pull the trigger they get the snot knocked out of them. Nobody can learn anything useful by doing that, other than wiping their noses! All they were doing is insuring that no one could use a shotgun effectively. This is not how I want our Military to function.

The reason why I feel so strongly about this is because about 10 years Ago I was shooting a 3 gun event in Santa Barbara and we had to get down behind a hay bale to shoot two steel targets at the end of the stage. I fired a Slug at the first target and it knocked the Target end over end. It also made Tears Squirt out of my eyes!!. I missed the second target and it really hurt me. When I got back to my car I looked at the box and they were Federal Maximum 1 oz. Slugs at 1610 fps! I had bought 2, 15 round boxes from Walmart several years before for $5 each ( great deal). I still have 28 rounds left! Then I went to my Chiropractor 3 times to have a rib put back in place which cost me $150!

I started casting and loading .662 Round Balls and Lee Slugs in my Normal Trap Loads which were 1 oz at about 1150 fps and used them until finally Federal came out with the Tactical Low Recoil Buckshot and Slugs they now sell .. Now I load many different Slugs and some Buckshot and stay away from heavy recoiling rounds simply because I have no need for them.

Now if I was going to go hunting for Polar Bears or some other big game I could easily survive 1 or 2 heavy slugs, since I now have a solid technique in place for running my shotguns which was developed by shooting hundreds of rounds of #8 Birdshot and Low Recoil Slugs. My Shotguns are also set up so they don't beat me during the course of several days in a class. This is pretty well covered earlier in this thread.!

My whole point here is that you need to learn how to operate a Tactical Shotgun because there is more to it than just shucking the slide or popping off a few rounds here and there. They are more like Rifles than conventional Shotguns used for wing shooting. This is a skill just like Shooting Trap Skeet or Sporting Clays that needs to be practiced. But before you can practice it, you first need to learn how to do it !.

I recommend a Shooting School for this as you are not going to Self Teach this subject. There is just too much to learn. www.frontsight.com

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

So Today I finally got to shoot "The Monkeyberg" with the rifled barrel. I was only shooting at 25 yards with it due to wind but it shoots pretty much where it was pointed with one caveat. It started out shooting a foot high! and there isn't enough vertical adjustment on the rear sight to make POA=POI. With the rear sight all the way down it still shoots 6" high at 25 yds. Windage is perfect. These were some of my older Lee Slugs loaded into Federal Blue Hulls with 18 gr of GD. first two shots that were a foot high were both thru the same hole.

I figured this might be the case as the front sight blade I ordered from Brownell's was the .375 version, which I found out too late, is measured from the bottom of the Dovetail to top of the Sight ,,, instead of from the bottom of the blade to the top of the blade. I need the next taller Blade.

So it's off to the catalog to get the right one.

Randy

[natlmatch]

This thread is amazing!!!!

WR, Thank you for taking the time to do it!!

[Frosty Boolit]

That's some good stuff you've done to your shotgun Randy. There is something that I have done to mine that I'd like to share. With a tube fulla Lyman 525's or 1-1/8 shot loads forward of the receiver, I didn't like how front heavy unbalanced my 870 felt so I put some weight in the hollow synthetic stock to counter that but also cut the recoil to practically nothing. I only use my reloads in the tac shotgun matches at my local club. I also see no need for T-Rex loads. I have been using 25gr of herco with either 1-1/8 of #5 or the Lyman 525 slug for years. I sold the mould so when I run out of slugs it'll be 18-19gr of red dot with Lee 7/8. Might experiment with extra lite for the slugs. That shot load ain't broke so I won't try to fix it!

About the training: I only learned from the other guys at the range and they are giving free advice but it is very similar to what you are talking about. I have had my ears open and have learned a ton.

If you are someone reading this thread and are thinking of trying this style of shooting, don't hesitate. Get out there and learn that 12ga. Iny opinion there is almost no better weapon for under 50yds in the hands of a skilled user.

PS, I have also enjoyed your write up more than any fluff in the American rifleman.

[45workhorse]

Outstanding write-up. Good information.

[Milky Duck]

oh boy...you want recoil in a shotgun??? try using the remington hypersonic steel loads in a pump action...... I was short shucking rounds after only a few shots..that stuff is terrible.... and no Im not talking a lightweight tacticle either,a steel framed H&R with 28" barrel and 11oz of lead shot up the buttstock,so not a lightweight by anymeans.... that stuff in a break open gun would be nothing shy of flinch making. agree 100 % on comment about effectiveness of hunble shotgun under 50 yards...one load that doesnt often get a mention is #BBs the same as your old red rider air gun used when you were a wee tacker...90 of them going out end of barrel between 11-1600fps really make a mess of whatever they hit....Ive killed enough wallabies (between 20-70lb similar size to a labrador) to know how effective different shotgun loads are on thin skinned game at close range...we found normal 00 buck had far too many gaps in pattern past 15 yards,the #7 buck (around 30x a 22cal pellet) were much better but the #BB or #2 were better still. watching video clips of fellas shooting hogs for helicopters the #BB load would make a lot more sense especially with the under 50lb pigs,trying to hit them with 9mm or .223 makes a hard job harder than needed.

[Wag]

Amazing thread.

Posting to subscribe.....

--Wag--

[Plate plinker]

This thread will make me spend some money and definitely spend time modifying my shotguns. Thanks guys……..

[pmer]

Hey Randy, could you write about cheek weld and what is happening when I'm getting slapped by the comb? I have a pump that is probably a matter of poor fit. When shouldered the butt has to ride high on my shoulder and it seems there's no good spot for my cheek. I catch myself turning the shotgun CCW but either way it smacks me.

[Baltimoreed]

302699This is what I’ve done to two Model 12 field guns. For the purists out there, one had a broken stock and a polychoke and the other a cut stock and a reblue.

[W.R.Buchanan]

pmer: First what kind of gun is it? Most Stock Field Grade Pump Guns have stocks that are dimensioned for "Mr. Average Guy." IE: 13.5" to 14.5" LOP. In any event you need to mount the gun so the toe of the stock is in the pocket of your shoulder. There is sometimes some speculation of where that "pocket" is?
I had to learn it a few years ago even though I have been shooting for 60+ years.

Reach under your armpit, put your fingers directly into the pit and close your thumb around your Pectoral Muscle just below your shoulder bone. That's where your pocket is.

When you mount the gun properly with the Toe in the Pocket you then mash your cheek bone down on the comb of the stock. As the gun recoils your head should travel with it, and "smacking in the chops" doesn't happen.

This will take practice to master!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..

It took me a while to get this down and I still get smacked sometimes on the first shot after laying off for a while. However I am quickly reminded of what I forget and correct for the next shot.

I am currently learning how to shoot Skeet. One of the key factors in clay bird shooting is keeping your head on the gun. That means keeping your cheek bone directly on the comb of the stock. IF you don't, you will shoot high every time and 1/4" of the comb equals 3 feet at the target!

I find myself raising my head up a lot even though I am concentrating on it, but my .410 O/U doesn't have any significant recoil so there is no pain associated with it. Plus that 1/4" off the comb doesn't give the gun much distance to build momentum and hurt you. The penalty is just another miss. Even with my 12 ga. it isn't that bad. The gun weighs almost 9 lbs. But that one small factor is haunting me, and lately I find myself relaxing as the shot breaks, and raising my cheek bone just ever so slightly maybe 1/4". I have caught myself doing it even though before I called for the bird I was concentrating on having my Cheek Weld hard in place! This will take practice to get past just like it did with my combat guns. It took me 3 classes to get past this or about 1200 rounds! YMMV?

Typically for a Combat Shotgun you want the stock a little shorter than for a field gun. 12.5-13" LOP seems to work for most people unless you are really tall. The whole idea of doing this is so that your stance is squared up to the target a little more which helps absorb the Recoil better so you can make follow up shots faster. This comes into play when doing multiple shot drills where you have to hit 2,3,4 targets in a row. you get 1.7, 2.1 and 2.7 seconds to complete these shots. Not too hard with a SA, but a Pump gun is definitely more challenging.

But my main point here is that you've got to keep your head on the gun! Only practice will make that happen.

Hope this helps.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

302699This is what I’ve done to two Model 12 field guns. For the purists out there, one had a broken stock and a polychoke and the other a cut stock and a reblue.

BE: Don't sweat it, Plenty more where they came from!

Randy

[Baltimoreed]

302726Started on a M1912 20 ga polychoked field gun into a riot. Been too hot out in my barn. Should be a handy dandy 20 ga pump.

[pmer]

pmer: First what kind of gun is it? Most Stock Field Grade Pump Guns have stocks that are dimensioned for "Mr. Average Guy." IE: 13.5" to 14.5" LOP. In any event you need to mount the gun so the toe of the stock is in the pocket of your shoulder. There is sometimes some speculation of where that "pocket" is?
I had to learn it a few years ago even though I have been shooting for 60+ years.

Reach under your armpit, put your fingers directly into the pit and close your thumb around your Pectoral Muscle just below your shoulder bone. That's where your pocket is.

When you mount the gun properly with the Toe in the Pocket you then mash your cheek bone down on the comb of the stock. As the gun recoils your head should travel with it, and "smacking in the chops" doesn't happen.

This will take practice to master!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..

It took me a while to get this down and I still get smacked sometimes on the first shot after laying off for a while. However I am quickly reminded of what I forget and correct for the next shot.

I am currently learning how to shoot Skeet. One of the key factors in clay bird shooting is keeping your head on the gun. That means keeping your cheek bone directly on the comb of the stock. IF you don't, you will shoot high every time and 1/4" of the comb equals 3 feet at the target!

I find myself raising my head up a lot even though I am concentrating on it, but my .410 O/U doesn't have any significant recoil so there is no pain associated with it. Plus that 1/4" off the comb doesn't give the gun much distance to build momentum and hurt you. The penalty is just another miss. Even with my 12 ga. it isn't that bad. The gun weighs almost 9 lbs. But that one small factor is haunting me, and lately I find myself relaxing as the shot breaks, and raising my cheek bone just ever so slightly maybe 1/4". I have caught myself doing it even though before I called for the bird I was concentrating on having my Cheek Weld hard in place! This will take practice to get past just like it did with my combat guns. It took me 3 classes to get past this or about 1200 rounds! YMMV?

Typically for a Combat Shotgun you want the stock a little shorter than for a field gun. 12.5-13" LOP seems to work for most people unless you are really tall. The whole idea of doing this is so that your stance is squared up to the target a little more which helps absorb the Recoil better so you can make follow up shots faster. This comes into play when doing multiple shot drills where you have to hit 2,3,4 targets in a row. you get 1.7, 2.1 and 2.7 seconds to complete these shots. Not too hard with a SA, but a Pump gun is definitely more challenging.

But my main point here is that you've got to keep your head on the gun! Only practice will make that happen.

Hope this helps.

Randy

The one that's giving me trouble is the Browning BPS 10 gauge. I took a couple pictures for comparison. The BPS 10 is on the right. Center is a 870 pump with a vent rib barrel installed. Left is a Remington 1889 10ga SXS.
BPS 10ga lop 14.5" comb is 1.75" drop at heel
870 12 ga lop 13 7/8" comb is 2 3/8" drop
1889 sxs 10ga lop 13 1/4" (rear trigger) comb goes from 2 3/16 to 3 1/4 at the heel.

With the side by side and the 870 I have no trouble with cheek slap but the BPS 10 another story. I suppose it's worse because of the heavier loads but I got to wondering if it's for 2 more reasons - comb too high and LOP is too long? If I put the toe deep in the pocket it will shoot high. If I mount it to be properly lined up on the vent rib the heel is above my shoulder and I'm mashing my cheek bone on top of the comb. A couple of hi velocity steel loads is about all my cheek can handle.
In contrast the Remington 10 gauge sxs is a dream to shoot recoil wise. And it patterns 1 1/4 oz loads of buckshot very tight. I usually start at 20 - 25 yards to see pattern development. But I think manufacturers put more time into the forcing cones and chokes back then too.

So I guess I'm thinking out loud trying to convince myself that I have to do something with the butt stock of the BPS 10 to make it more usable. The pictures seem to help drive the point.

[pmer]

Duplicate

[dverna]

As a recoil sensitive trap shooter who had to shoot up to 400 rounds a day and 1200+ rounds during an event, I had to tame recoil. Gun fit...gun fit...gun fit.

If I can find it and post it, I have an write up on it I will post when I get to my main computer.

Adding mass helps a lot. But who wants a 10 lb tactical shotgun?

IMO people use much heavier loads than necessary.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes, Heavier loads are meant for shooting Polar Bears. Anything below that you are fine with #8 birdshot level loads. All my 12 ga. Reloads and that means slugs and buckshot too, are loaded in my Standard Trap Loads of AA Hulls with 18 or20 gr of Green Dot Claybuster Wad and fold crimp. Payloads are by weight so the shell doesn't know if it has an ounce of bird shot or buckshot or a 1 oz. slug.

The reason for the two different powder charges is because I changed my Progressive DL366 from 18 to 20gr to get a better burn. The higher pressure burns the powder more completely, so less unburned powder left in the barrel.. I didn't have another bushing for DL266 so it stayed at 18 gr. Makes very little difference on slug and buckshot loads at that level.

Training with High Power 12 ga. loads is stoopid. You are just beating yourself for no reason, and all you will teach yourself is how much you don't want to shoot that gun.

As far as you 10 ga. guns I can't really offer up anything beyond what I just said above. These are strictly Hunting Weapons so you are never going to shoot a large volume of shells in one sitting. All I can say is drag the gun into your shoulder hard, keep your head on the gun, and just take the recoil, not much more you can do.

But you can reload your 10g Ammo to lower levels and that might help.

Randy.

[megasupermagnum]

@pmer, there may be some things you can do to adjust your current BPS stock. I'm unsure of the availability of shims for a BPS. If you can find them, that is a super easy way to adjust stock angle. It could be that you prefer a shorter LOP. In the pictures it looks like you have a slip on pad on there, but I'm sure you've tried it without that pad. You can then replace the recoil pad with a thinner one to reduce LOP. The issue I see there is you describe the comb as being too high. Well the shorter your LOP, the farther forward your head sits, and ultimately the higher your eye goes since the front of your comb is higher than the rear. If none of that helps, the BPS has been made for many years, and I think it is likely an older stock may be shaped different than yours. If you really want to take the time to make it your own, you could buy a wood stock and add an adjustable comb kit. One last tip that might not help, but it almost sounds like your pitch might be off. You can buy pitch spacers that change the angle of your recoil pad. If your pad bottom is poking into your shoulder, changing the pitch may help to get that pad square to you.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a new Browning Citori CXS 32" I have been using for learning Skeet, the problem I have found with teh gun is that teh stock Recoil Pad which is Radiused on all surfaces doesn't index into my shoulder the same way every time.. When shooting clays it is a well known fact that if your cheek comes off the comb of the stock 1/4" it equals 3 feet high at the target 25 yards away.

My solution to this is to put a Pachmayer Trap Pad on the gun that has sharp edges and curvature that fits my shoulder better. This sir the same pad I put on my Browning A5 Tactical Gun. It is real squishy and the part that contacts your shoulder is textured so it stays in position really well. Luckily I have an extra one in my shop because the new price on them is over $60 !!!

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

And that pad is working beautifully !!!

Randy

[Ajax111]

Very informative thread! I have shot some trap, but never had the chance to shoot Tactical Shotgun.

Sounds like a lot of fun.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Learning the Gun Handling that goes with Tactical Shot Gunning will improve your Shotgun Shooting in general. Learning how to Port Load or Single Load a Pump or Semi Auto Gun, makes you a better and safer field shooter.

Most all Repeating Shotguns must be plugged so they only hold two rounds in the magazine, and that plus one in the chamber makes for three rounds on board. But here comes a big flock of Geese? So you fire your first three rounds, and then start Port Loading the gun, and take down 3 more right in front of the Game Warden. Just Imagine how impressed he would be with your gun handling skills? Doubt if he would even ask to see the gun or check for a plug.

There is a lot to Tactical Shot Gunning and going to a class is a very eye opening experience. People seldom go to just one class as they are so much fun you just have to go back. I have been to 7 so far and will probably be going back after the first.

I just shot skeet with my Ithaca M37 last week and I had no problems with racking the slide immediately after every shot. Before Pump Gun Class I would have not been able to make a double to save my life. I can do it every time now.

Ithacas are kind of weird in the loading department due to the bottom ejection, and the Lifter blocking the Ejection Port when the bolt is open. It is virtually impossible to single load one without just stuffing a round into the mag and cycling the slide, which is twice as much work as with a Mossberg or other gun with Side Ejection. You have to have the bolt closed to load the magazine and thus the slide is forward and must be cycled completely to put a round in the chamber. After that they are just like any other gun. So the key to using an Ithaca as a Tactical Gun is to not run it dry. There are zillions of Ithaca Riot Guns out there as they were very popular with Police Departments before Rem 870's took over.

Go look at schools that teach this. It is a very rewarding pursuit.

Randy

[Chena]

I can recommend the Williams vent rib fiber optic sights for aging eyes. Mounted a set on a Remington Special Field for a bear defense gun. They made qualifying much easier. That said, I will admit that light, synthetic stocked 12 gauge pumps with full power slugs are just about my least favorite weapon. In addition to the beating they dish out, I almost always manage to pinch or nick myself on the fore end. My fault not the gun’s but there is a good deal to be said for the handling characteristics of wood stocked hunting arms if you have spent a lot of time chasing upland game.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I can recommend the Williams vent rib fiber optic sights for aging eyes. Mounted a set on a Remington Special Field for a bear defense gun. They made qualifying much easier. That said, I will admit that light, synthetic stocked 12 gauge pumps with full power slugs are just about my least favorite weapon. In addition to the beating they dish out, I almost always manage to pinch or nick myself on the fore end. My fault not the gun’s but there is a good deal to be said for the handling characteristics of wood stocked hunting arms if you have spent a lot of time chasing upland game.

Is your "Special Field " the model with the 21" bbl and Strait Grip English Stock? Could you post a picture of it?

This is my favorite model of the Remington 870 And I would love to see a pic with the William's Sights installed on the rib.

Also your barrel is threaded for Rem Chokes? Carlson makes a Rem Choke Rifled Choke Tube that will improve your slug accuracy. Also using Low Recoil Federal Slugs will cut down on the misery. Shooting High Base Slugs in that light gun would not be pleasant. see my post up thread about ammo.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK Just got back from SHOT and I had some interesting encounters. I Met Larry Potterfield from Midway USA in a Hallway going out of the venue. Talked for 5 minutes! Great Guy.

But the shotgun related thing that happened is I got Lena Miculek to show me how to do the old style 4 shell loading technique.(Not Quad Loading!) This is the one you use if you carry your shells in a CA Comp Shell Carrier.

First she showed me the process while facing me, then she turned around so I could see it looking over her shoulder as you would see it from the shooters viewpoint..

She was VERY enthusiastic! and she broke it down into the 4 component parts. And when she got done I knew exactly how to do it! I am practicing every day for about 15 minutes and will have it up to speed soon.

The true way to decide if someone knows what they are talking about,,, is if they can explain it in Clear and Concise terms, without using any .50 Cent words that nobody understands. If you completely understand what you were told, chances are the person actually understood what they were talking about.

Any way I will be posting a tutorial on here it as soon as I have mastered it.

Randy

[Wag]

Can't wait to see it, Randy!

--Wag--

[Hamish]

Since Randy is taking so long to post again, I thought this thread could use a little intermission vid of the lady herself,,,, (she really is cute as a bug)

https://youtu.be/LHbfXlphbu0


https://youtu.be/LHbfXlphbu0

[smilie=s: Hey Randy!

[fastdadio]

The gal knows her way around a scatter gun. A chip off the 'ole' block.

[W.R.Buchanan]

That is the other way to do it. The older way is to take 4 rounds off your "California Competition Shell Holder" Line them up sitting on your pinky finger, and stuff them into the magazine one at a time. I have been practicing this maneuver for a week or so now and still haven't come up to a good speed. I can do it exactly like she showed me but not nearly as fast or as smooth. Also getting 4 rounds to go in the same way is a problem. First 2 not bad, next one starting to fall off, and then the 4th round is always in the wrong position to get it in the port.

If I look at the whole process, starting with an empty gun, loading 4 rounds then firing 4 rounds, I can do it faster if I port load and single fire 4 times. Like 4 Emergency Reloads. If I'm behind a barricade it is more prudent to fully load the magazine then re engage four targets. That's where this technique comes in.

Randy

[Hamish]

Randy,

I don’t remember seeing you referencing if you hogged the loading port out on any of your tac/HD guns. a few years back I bought the wife a 20ga Tri-Star Raptor and ended up doing about a 50% hog out after she kept complaining of sharp edges and trouble getting into the tube. It really helped even though I didn’t inlet it much.

For anyone reading this, I 100% recommend the Raptor, it’s a quality made, dirt simple gun that just runs, even super light reloads.

[Chena]

This is a fantastic thread! It’s packed with so much tested information that I expect to reread it many times.

[W.R.Buchanan]

This is a fantastic thread! It’s packed with so much tested information that I expect to reread it many times.

This is good because most people haven't figured out that they never will get everything out of a thread without re reading it many times. My First Handloader Magazine (Aug 2007) had the Definitive Article on Loading the .45-70 by Brian Pearce. I have read that article at least 50 times! I still find things I had missed before every time I read it.

Hamish: all I did to the loading port was radius the sharp edges of it, so it doesn't cut me. I might go deeper some day if I see any significant benefit to it.

Randy

[Chena]

The info on modifications to prevent cuts interests me greatly. I have nicked myself several times working fast with generic agency shotguns. That and other poor ergonomics caused me to loathe the early generations of synthetic stocked factory tactical shotguns.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The info on modifications to prevent cuts interests me greatly. I have nicked myself several times working fast with generic agency shotguns. That and other poor ergonomics caused me to loathe the early generations of synthetic stocked factory tactical shotguns.

Yes, as as stated in the thread above I spend lots of time just handling my guns looking for sharp edges and hot spots. The Magpul Furniture is some of the cleanest plastic moldings I have seen, and usually need very little work to clean up. An Emery Board with a smooth and super smooth side is the weapon of choice, and it helps to have a Exacto Knife too... The M500 Safety will require a file or deburring wheel to dehorn.

Also Shotguns with Full House Buckshot are not going to be fun for more than 2 shots. One to wake you up and another so you remember not to shoot it again. No reason for High Base Buckshot or Slugs unless you are shooting at Polar Bears or Pickup Trucks. All training should be done with birdshot, and daily carry should be with Low Recoil Buck and Slugs. You can always carry a few Heavy Duty Rounds with you on the Side Saddle if you need something more potent. Very few people are going to know the difference between being hit by a load of Buck or a Slug Traveling at 1300 fps or 1600 fps, but you will on the back side of the gun, especially if you don't have the benefit of a big charge of adrenalin to mask the pain. Big Bears are a different story and they will take everything you can throw at them. A 1 1/4oz slug at 1600 fps will take down just about anything on this planet, but there is no person alive that is going to take a 1oz Slug at 1300 fps Center Mass and live to tell about it,,, Even with a BP Vest! The impact alone will end them.

Shotguns are pretty serious weapons !...

Randy

[FrankJD]

Great thread and timely for me as I'm just getting into shotguns for HD.

I might've missed seeing/reading it, but what's considered minimum for magazine/total shell capacity?

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK Slug results with the Rifled Choke Tube installed in the Monkeyberg. I was only able to shoot at 25 yards that day due to really heavy fog at the Range. We could just barely see the targets at 25 yards!

The results were not only encouraging, but pretty damn good.

313939

The first 4 shots were in the group to the left. I made a windage correction and the last shot split the vertical line. These were 1 oz. Lee Drive Key Slugs loaded into my standard Trap Load of AA hull, 18 gr of Green Dot, Claybuster Waa12 wad, @1150 fps,,, in other words the absolute cheapest way to shoot Slugs.

Please note: that there is 3 shots essentially thru the same hole with one off to the left a small amount.

These slugs will be used for 3 gun shoots and Classes when I attend. Pretty happy with these results!

313940

This second target was shot with Lyman 525 Slugs which look like big Airgun Pellets. Same load as above just a different slug I have been trying to get these to perform for the last 3 years from Rifled Barrels with poor results. Pretty Happy with the results on these as well. Once again multiple shots thru the same hole with a couple of flyers that weren't that far away from the rest.

313941

Also note how the holes have a more circular cut. The Lyman Slugs are more like a Wadcutter Diabolo Pellet with a big flat front that is .575 across! Energy transfer to a soft target would be devastating !!!
This is definitely a Hunting Slug!.

Conclusion on this Range Trip is that this Smoothbore Barrel with the Rifled Choke Tube shoots birdshot and slugs well.

Randy

[FrankJD]

I have 3 shotguns - Beretta A300 Patrol LE version (full cylinder, no chokes) 19" semi-auto 7+1, Mossberg Maverick 88 (also full cylinder, no chokes) 20" pump 7+1, Stevens 301 "chinese special" break open 26" single shot - all are 12ga. I added a FalconStrike hydraulic butt pad to the M88 - not cheap but it does a fantastic job of mitigating recoil. I ran a gaggle of 1300fps bird and buck shot through all guns and the M88 yielded the least felt recoil; the A300 has an internal recoil system besides being a gas gun that softens the blow, the 301 was Harsh (I'm adding a FalconStrike to that as well). However, hard recoil shotshells are something I don't need for HD/SD.

In keeping with this thread, I see no need for running buckshot shells over 1200fps. I build #00 buckshot shells by pure lead casting .319" Lee pellets and then powder coating them to .334" diameter. Currently using 2-3/4" hulls (new or reloaded), digital scale weighed WST powder under Claybuster 12S3 wads that are loaded with 8 #00 pellets. Loading is done in an LL2 press, 6 star crimp, and a final pass through a Ukraine-bought shell crimper that insures the shell mouths are at least parallel and not flared out, for ease of pump and auto loading. I dunno what the speed is of these buckshot shells but the damage at 5-20 yards is self evident ... and super easy on the shoulder and cheek. I also have the Op-Sol foam plug for the M88 that allows running mini-shells - haven't tried it yet, but will eventually; nice to have a 14 round shotgun capacity and like Clint sez: shotgun capacity is paramount 'cause reloads aren't as fast as an AR mag change.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My Browning A5 gets a New Barrel.
I got a new barrel for my Combat A5. It started out as a 28" Solid Rib barrel I got off Ebay for @$125.

I had planned to drop it off at Vang Comp in January for them to Thread it for Rem Chokes. I had already cut it off to 20" and was going to put Open Sights on it. And being able to run a Rifled Choke Tube and shoot slugs accurately was what I was after.

Rude awakening when I got to VC and found out the Wall Thickness of the Barrel was to thin to thread! Damn!

Now I'm stuck with it and I already cut it to 20" I could have probably put it back up on Ebay and sold it for $250, (A5 barrels go for a lot these days) but I decided that I really wanted a shorter barrel for this gun as a 3 gun shooter and didn't want to cut my Buck Special Barrel or Hastings Rifled Barrel. They are both worth $400-$500 so best not to mess with them.

One redeeming thing about this barrel is that the Muzzle ID is .725 instead of the usual .729-.730 for a Cylinder Bore. this one is "Skeet." so My standard Slug load using Lee 1 oz. Slugs will fit tighter in the barrel thus improving accuracy. The bore is also Chrome Plated and shines like a Diamond in a Goat's ****.

So I ordered a Williams Front Sight Ramp and a Folding Open Rear Sight.

I just installed these sights onto the Solid Rib over the last few days and put a Green FO Front Sight Blade in the Front Ramp.

I had to cut the Rear Sight's Dovetail off so I had a strait section I could drill for 2 screws.

I had planned out in advance that I wanted the barrel to be longer than the Briley Mag tube extension (7+1) so the gun would look right. 20" was exactly right.

So here's pics of the new barrel installed on the gun. It came out good and was almost what I actually wanted. I bore sighted it with a Laser in the barrel so it should be close and I will refine the Zero when I get a chance to shoot it when our Range opens back up.

Here's some pics. The gun is 38.5" long and weighs 8 lbs. on the nose. It handles way faster than with the full length barrels, and since it is a 1963 model it has the "Speed Feed Feature" that that makes single loading much faster than Port Loading. What that means it that I can beat your Benelli's and Berettas every time.

Randy

[Texas by God]

I like that a lot, sir.
Those A5s are legends for working.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[W.R.Buchanan]

It runs great I just haven't gotten to shoot it with the new barrel yet.. I have taken it to 2 Front Sight Tactical Shotgun classes with the Buck Special Barrel and it ran perfectly the whole time, @350 rounds in two days.

Randy

[lightload]

Randy, can you explain how the Auto 5 shotguns can cycle so fast even though they have long recoil actions?

[W.R.Buchanan]

My fastest Split Time with mine was 4 shots in 2.0 seconds on 4 different targets. That's .5 seconds per shot which included picking up the next target before firing the next round. IE: Movement of the gun and getting hits too.

Without moving the gun,,, just firing 4 shots as fast as I can would surely be <1 second or 250 milliseconds per shot. A M60 SAW runs at 600 RPM. or 100 Milliseconds per shot.

The gun can easily outrun me, and I suspect most people.

Keep in mind that as soon as the primer is punched the cycle starts, and the barrel is moving rearward, When it hits the back of it's stroke the bolt is locked back and the spent shell is ejected as soon as it clears the chamber which is moving forward, the lifter is already moving a new shell into position and it is chambered as the bolt moves forward. The bolt is locked in battery as soon as it is all the way forward. This is all Strictly Mechanical not waiting for any gas pistons or anything else. Pretty sure the gun is way faster than I am.

Here's a video showing how it works. How a Browning Auto-5 works - YouTube https://www.google.com/search?q=vieo+of+browning+a5+cycling&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS996US996&oq=Vieo&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7Mg0IARAuGK 8BGMcBGIAEMgYIAhBFGDkyBggDEEUYQDIJCAQQABgKGIAEMgcI BRAAGIAEMgkIBhAAGAoYgAQyDwgHEC4YChjHARjRAxiABNIBCD Y3NThqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1aa7c6fc,vid:5MfLYgTe6NI

Whereas with a Gas Gun the payload has to move halfway down the barrel before the gas port is uncovered and then pressurize the mechanism to get it started moving. It is way behind the A5 from the start.

Hope this helps understand how the gun works. You will quickly see what a "mechanical marvel" it is. How JMB figured this all out is beyond me.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's a couple more pics of the A5 ,,,
Randy

[pull the trigger]

This has been a fantastic thread, thank you very much!!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Another Tac Gun comes to fruition. The Auto-Berg!

So I got a REALLY GOOD DEAL!!! on a 1960's made Mossberg 500 that was originally made for the Western Auto Chain of Stores. It had a Plain 30" Full Choke Barrel and nice Wood Furniture. It was such a good deal that I couldn't pass it up, not like I needed another one, but I will find a use for it. The gun was used, but it had not been used hard, and was not too dirty inside.

Western Auto was a competitor of Pep Boys back in the day, and had a bunch of cool stuff like Bicycles, and American Flyer Electric Trains which competed with Lionel and a bunch of WA Branded guns which are in high demand. I missed a nearly perfect WA Marlin 30-30 at a gun show a few years back that was ripe for just a wood refinish/action clean up. The WA Trains are serious Collector Items now as they were "S" Gauge with only two rails instead of the Lionel 3 rail system.

This gun had a few differences in the way it was put together than the others I have done. The Magazine Tube assembles into the Receiver differently and has a Flat Wound Spring around it that "cushions" the Slide Movement to the front. Also the entire Mag Tube/Slide Assembly has to be installed as a unit into the receiver. The others I have all can have the Mag Tube Screwed into the Receiver independently. There are also two 1/2" long Sleeves Silver Soldered to the tube to take up the slack between the Slide Tube and the Mag tube. Those aren't there on later guns.

Anyway I broke all the sharp edges on all the Internal Parts, did some touch up Re-bluing and smoothed out everything and gave everything a nice polished finish and put it back together. It also got a new Safety Button like the others I use.

Probably going to go with my Fully Rifled 18" bbl. on this gun to start. I might pick up another Vent Rib Barrel that I can Rem Choke and Port and Lengthen the Forcing Cone on, like was done to the Monkey Berg. Got the Magpul Furniture this morning (just love Sunday Deliveries during the Christmas Season!) I only could get a set of Gray ones, as all the others were out of stock, but I am looking at painting them some kind of Dark OD Green. Wanted to do Air Dry Cera-Kote but it is just too expensive for a job like this. Maybe I can go with a 2 part Polyurethane from one of the Auto Paint Stores. I need less than a 1/2 Pint to do the job. We'll see?

More to come. Here's some pics

Randy
__________________
Rule #1 Liberals screw up everything they touch.
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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It is how well you do what you don't know how to do.
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com