Bullet Expansion at "Leisurely" Velocities

[pettypace]

In his 1899 Manstopper Bullet patent (http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/SSS/US634383.pdf), Mr. Webley stated:

This invention relates to bullets or projectiles designed to be fired by revolvers and pistols, and has for its object a bullet which when fired at a low velocity of about six hundred to seven hundred feet per second, such as is obtained by ordinary revolvers, will readily expand or head up on striking a body and to an extent check penetration, thus delivering a considerable shock, whereby the stopping power of a low velocity, bullet is so increased that it will arrest the progress of a charging man or an animal even if only a non vital part of the body is struck.

I'm helping a friend resurrect this old Webley (http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/Webley_MP.mp4) and wondering if anyone has experience with bullet expansion at velocities between 500 and 600 f/s?

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/Webley_MP_800x600.jpg

[Winger Ed.]

That company Aquilla does or did make some loaded ammo that expanded easily.

It is a big mouth hollow point, Aluminum bullet that is segmented into 3-4 sections.
At .38Spec. and .45ACP speeds it opens like a pop corn kernel.

For the Webley, you'd need to 'unload' the .38s to put them in the .38S&W case.

[Thumbcocker]

I read an article called "Reinventing the Manstopper" a long time ago. The author took the base part of the old Lyman 2 part swc mold and made a pin so it would cast a giant hollow point with a plain base. As I recall it sort of worked.

Then there is a hollow base wadcutter with a .35 cal gas check on the nose loaded upside down.

Then there were double hollow based swaged wadcutters with a post in the middle. Haven't seen those for decades.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[missionary5155]

And then there are heavy for caliber FN cast of 40-1 that will expand nicely at your target velocity.
If you are looking at caliber .38 find a 200 grain FN.
For the .455 a 250 - 280 FN again cast of 40-1.

[Outpost75]

I did the Reinventing The Manstopper article in American Rifleman back in The late 1970s or early 1980s before I went to Ruger. Since then have gotten much more experience with low velocity lead HPs for use in large bore air rifles, etc.

Use 1 to 40 tin-lead alloy from Roto Metals. Have Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com modify your wide flat nose or wadcutter bullet to a cup point. You want an elliptical cavity with major diameter of the opening 0.66 of the meplat diameter with cavity depth equal to major diameter of the opening, terminating in a full radius at max. depth of cavity which is a 0.2 radius of the meplat.

Expansion will be reliable above 600 fps with expanded diameter 1.5 times bullet diameter at 650 fps and twice bullet diameter above 750 fps. At velocity over 750 fps change to 1 to 30 tin-lead, above 850 fps use 1 to 20 tin-lead. This is established and proven design in .455, .45 Auto Rim, .38-200, .38 Special at Standard pressure.

I have pics of bullets, but unable to import on my phone.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Subscribed

[dddddmorgan]

Thumbcocker has it right about the hollow base wadcutter turned upside down. My father told me about these as well as the old Canyon County Sheriff. Was a popular trick I guess back in the day for a man-stopper, not a penetrator.

Sounds to me like Outpost knows his stuff ;-)

[pettypace]

I did the Reinventing The Manstopper article in American Rifleman back in The late 1970s or early 1980s before I went to Ruger. Since then have gotten much more experience with low velocity lead HPs for use in large bore air rifles, etc.

Use 1 to 40 tin-lead alloy from Roto Metals. Have Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com modify your wide flat nose or wadcutter bullet to a cup point. You want an elliptical cavity with major diameter of the opening 0.66 of the meplat diameter with cavity depth equal to major diameter of the opening, terminating in a full radius at max. depth of cavity which is a 0.2 radius of the meplat.

Expansion will be reliable above 600 fps with expanded diameter 1.5 times bullet diameter at 650 fps and twice bullet diameter above 750 fps. At velocity over 750 fps change to 1 to 30 tin-lead, above 850 fps use 1 to 20 tin-lead. This is established and proven design in .455, .45 Auto Rim, .38-200, .38 Special at Standard pressure.

I have pics of bullets, but unable to import on my phone.

Outpost75 -- Thanks for all that! To paraphrase Mohammed Ali, if I even dreamed I could have gotten all that on my own, I'd have woke up smiling.

It's back to the lead pot tomorrow to cook up some 40:1.

[fm2]

Following.

[ddixie884]

Cool info. Thanx Mr Harris.................

[sharps4590]

Back in the 70's, as duty ammo, we carried the HBWC reversed in our Mod. 15's.

[nhithaca]

Check out Matts Bullets. He makes hollow base wadcutters in 32, 38, 44, and 45. I'm not associated with him but just a satisfied buyer. Uses a pretty soft alloy which I find expands well.

[rintinglen]

The 38 HBWC reversed was not as accurate as the hollow point WFN IME.

Back in the 70's I experimented fairly extensively with the concept, striving for a "good" load to use in my M-37 S&W. They would expand quite well at 700 fps, but sometimes they would squash inward. I was using wet newspaper at the time as an expansion test media (It was free and readily available.) I think a double-ended Hollow-base, Hollow nose wadcutter would work better, but I never tried it. In more recent times, I have found that the 359-640 with the large HP pin does fine when cast from 40-1 or pure(ish) lead down at low end velocities.

[Electrod47]

Go to Mattsbullets.com search under .44 Cal. you will see a 218 grain hollowbase full meplat wadcutter. I load these upside down for my Charter Arms Bulldog at 725fps w/BE. they blowup to .69Cal in wet newspaper at 7 yards. Interestingly, they are pretty accurate.

[JRD]

A quick search turned up the Manstopper article. Page 19.
http://http://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/NRA-Cast-Sup1.pdf (www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/NRA-Cast-Sup1.pdf)

[Outpost75]

Link doesn't work, DNS address cannot be found.

[Good Cheer]

In the 70's used Speer's HBWC's with 2.7 grains Bullseye for hunting rabbits.
Those bullets had a small spherical section on the front and a short segment of reduced diameter immediately behind it. If you sliced off that spherical section with a razor blade or sharp knife the short segment behind it made a perfectly formed step for seating a gas check. Loading them backwards made for some fun expansion experiments. So did putting various things in the hollows.
Tried out a Lyman #450229 with the nose of the cavity machined out to a straight cylinder. The bullets were loaded backwards for use in a Colt Model 1909. Accuracy and expansion were good and it would definitely roll an armadillo.
Tried out Lyman hollow based designs #358395 and #41027. They were OK.
Now working with a .41 SWC mold with the SWC nose removed to use adjustable length plugs.

[pettypace]

Link doesn't work, DNS address cannot be found.

I got to it with with a google search for NRA-Cast-Sup1.pdf

[rintinglen]

Good Lord! I remember reading that 40 years ago but never got around to trying it out. No wonder there's an old man in my mirror looking back at me.

[pettypace]

Yesterday I successfully defended the Snubbyfest boys from a marauding gang of water-filled milk cartons. The ammo used is shown below:

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/450Adams_Exp_01.jpg

My buddy with the old Webley Metropolitan Police was mightily impressed and left with a handful of those soft "manstopper" bullets to load (hopefully not with 3.6 grains of BE) in .450 Adams cases for next week's Snubbyfest.

But I'm not convinced that an expanding bullet is the best medicine for the old Webley. More on that later...

[Good Cheer]

Came away from the HPWC experiments with one "rule".
It has to be heavy enough to push through whether it expands or not.
And then it seems to expand just fine. :rolleyes:

[Outpost75]

Here are some low velocity water jug expansion tests in .380 ACP

298107298108298109

[pettypace]

Cartridges of the World shows a Kynoch factory smokeless load with a 225 grain bullet at 700 f/s for the .450 Adams cartridge. But they don't mention the barrel length. With its Victorian metallurgy and 2-1/2" barrel, I'm not anxious to push my buddy's old Webley much beyond 550 f/s with the 230 grain MP "manstopper" bullet. From the picture below, it's clear that 550 f/s won't produce enough horsepower to turn the hollow point inside out.


https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/manstopper_profiles.jpg

If these flattop "mushrooms" would penetrate like your average modern day expanded JHP, then the models suggest about 12" of penetration and 37 grams of effective wound mass as shown below. That's almost identical to the terminal ballistics of the .38 Special FBI load fired from a 4" barrel. Nothing to be trifled with.

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/msh_60_230_550.jpg

But I suspect that concave, trumpet-shaped mushrooms penetrate more like a wadcutter than the gently rounded convex "mushroom" shape of most expanded JHPs. In that case, the models show inadequate penetration and much less wound mass as shown below.

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/wc_60_230_550.jpg

I didn't make any effort yesterday to "measure" penetration. But even without real gelatin, it shouldn't be too hard to compare the penetration of the Webley manstoppers against some well-known standards like, for example, target wadcutters or Gold Dots from a .38 snubby.

If it turns out that the expanded manstoppers penetrate like over-sized and under-penetrating wadcutters, then the smart money for the old Webley is probably just to cast those same bullets harder and load them as intended, with the hollow base next to the powder.


https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/wc_45_230_550.jpg

So, the plain old .45 wadcutter, even at just 550 f/s, should give more penetration and about the same wound mass as the best of modern JHPs from a .38 snubby and with none of the vagaries associated with hollow point expansion.

[Outpost75]

The old pre-WW2 British Kynoch catalog ballistics would have been based upon firings from a 5-inch solid industrial test barrel.

[pettypace]

The old pre-WW2 British Kynoch catalog ballistics would have been based upon firings from a 5-inch solid industrial test barrel.

Thanks, Outpost75.

What about Fiocchi? These seemed "hot" to me. I tried to convince my friend to pull the bullets and tone them down a bit. But he's unconvinced.

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/Resize_20220324_203858_8141.jpg

[Outpost75]

The Fiocchi ammo loaded to current CIP specs is hotter. Fine for the S&W Hand Ejectors and Colt New Service, but a bit robust for a top-breaks Webley if you want it to last.

[uscra112]

A quick search turned up the Manstopper article. Page 19.
http://http://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/NRA-Cast-Sup1.pdf (www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/NRA-Cast-Sup1.pdf)

I don't have that one in my library. Can't download from the URL. *sigh*. Gone are the days when the NRA was such a valuable source of technical info.

[M-Tecs]

A quick search turned up the Manstopper article. Page 19.
http://http://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/NRA-Cast-Sup1.pdf (www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/NRA-Cast-Sup1.pdf)

Thanks. I have not seen this one. Great info.

[Fernando]

[QUOTE=Outpost75;5378662]Here are some low velocity water jug expansion tests in .380 ACP

Outpost what was the alloy for these?? If you remember.
Thanks

[Outpost75]

[QUOTE=Outpost75;5378662]Here are some low velocity water jug expansion tests in .380 ACP

Outpost what was the alloy for these?? If you remember.
Thanks

1 to 40 tin-lead from Roto Metals

[Fernando]

[QUOTE=Fernando;5379037]

1 to 40 tin-lead from Roto Metals

Thank you:drinks:

[pettypace]

Different caliber, more or less the same result:

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/44_Special_Expansion_800x400.png

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Do what Elmer did, use 20/1 alloy and push it to 1100 fps.

[pettypace]

Do what Elmer did, use 20/1 alloy and push it to 1100 fps.

That could turn this six-shot Webley MP into a single shot.

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/Webley_MP_800x600.jpg

[Outpost75]

I picked up a 3-1/2" Pietta Sheriff Model .44-40 and a 4-1/2" Colt New Service .44-40 which should be interesting. Pre-WW2 WRA balloon-head rounds loaded with Sharpshooter powder and 200- grain JSP in the 3-1/2" revolver with 0.008" cylinder gap gave ~800 fps with zero expansion from the short barrel vs. 858 fps from a 5-1/2" Colt New Service revolver, with 0.008 cyl..gap, penetrating six gallon water jugs with no expansion. Got 953 fps with some expansion to .50"+ stopped in 5th jug from a 7-1/2" Colt SA with .006" cylinder gap. A useful 1900 snapshot time capsule. Just the thing to put down the recalcitrant bull. Will shoot the 4-1/2" New Service when it arrives.

[Good Cheer]

That could turn this six-shot Webley MP into a single shot.

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/Webley_MP_800x600.jpg

Nice. Always had a soft spot for large bore and short barrel. Well, that and my wife never had a problem walking a can around the yard with her snub noses so the least I could do was keep up.

[curioushooter]

I did a number of tests on properly calibrated (resistance match to pork loin and deer leg which are the same) gelatin. Water and other mediums (clay, mud, newspapers), except perhaps that synthetic gel, should be ignored. I did tests using water and not only is it useless for determining penetration (which is at least as important as expansion), it tends to exaggerate expansive properties of hollowpoints and diminish it with solids.

My findings were stunningly consistent. They could follow formula. And I suspect that millitaries throughout the world figured this out a long time ago.

Regarding handguns with solid cast bullets. No real expansion is observed at all until you are going somewhat above 1200 FPS impact velocity. You will observe deformation, but this isn't the same as the "mushrooming effect". Once you crank it up to 1400 or greater you start to observe effective expansion in solids. How many handguns have an impact velocity of 1400 FPS? I found 1100 FPS to be about a break point. Interestingly this is about the speed of sound in air at normal elevations.

With hollowpoints you observe consistent expansion down to about 750 FPS impact velocity or so. I like 800 FPS or more with a SOFT alloy containing no antimony, only tin. The problem is that at such low velocity there really isn't an abundance of momentum to carry that expanded bullet very deep. The classic 38 SPL+P loaded with a 158 grain or so soft SWCHP out of a 1 7/8" snubbie gets just under a foot of penetration, usually 9-10" with a 4 layer denim cover. This was recognized as an effective load because it is. No more effective non-jacketed load I have found for a snub nose 38. It basically defines cast hollow point performance at the bottom end of the performance envelope. Out a 4" revolver this load improves owning to the almost 100 FPS it can pick up, getting it to penetrate over a foot and still holding together.

Really soft hollow points fragment if you push them too hard. 850-900 FPS you will start to see fragging, not on every one usually, but sometimes "tearing". Like one of six or so. At 357 mag velocity you will frag unless the alloy is toughened up with more tin and copper. 16:1 works, so does an alloy I call 96-2-2. Which has equal by wight parts antimony and tin (together added at once ounce per pound), is harder than 16:1, and is cheaper as it has half as much tin. Once you are up to 3% antimony it seems to "crystallize" the alloy greatly increasing brittleness and will cause fragmentation to a significant degree. Wheel weights, especially older ones, seem to have too much antimony. Tin, if you can get some, is your friend.

One of epiphanies I had regarding cast hollowpoints is that they act like a little parachute. If you get expansion, you will reduce penetration, in almost a linear fashion I suspect. Penetration can be improved by lengthening the bullet (adding mass) or by increasing velocity (but this also may increase penetration or cause fragmentation which results in loss of mass and reduction of penetration). The straightforward way is to increase mass. This is why 38 SPL+P beats 9mm with cast bullets IMO.

Predicting the performance of hollowpints is not trivial. All my testing was done almost perfectly perpendicular to the gel block. The few tests I did at angles revealed that really big cast hollow point cavities with thin walls like to collapse rather than expand, sometimes you get a half expanded bullet or something (this is sadly true of that 38 SWCHP). It seriously eroded by "trust" in them. I found that jacketed hollowpoints are quite a different animal too. The much tougher jacket allows the use of very soft lead alloys for the core and it arrests expansion, prevents fragmentation, allowing the manufacturer to really dial in the performance profile. Of all the jacketed bullets I tested I have have some favorites. I even did "barrier" testing shooting plywood and my wife's cookie sheets. The Federal 130 grain HST bullet in their 38+P defensive loads is the last word in snub gun loads as far as I am concerned, though it is annoyingly difficult to use with a speedloader. And the Hornady 158 grain XTPHP in 357 full sized (4" barrel or longer) revolvers and the 180 grain XTPHP in 357 rifles. 147 grain XTPHP in 9mm loaded hot.

Compared to solids it is a chore. This is one of the reasons why I made a paradigm shift to using big bore cast solids instead of medium bore cast hollowpoints for handgun hunting (though I confess I still have a fondness for 357 Max with 180 grain Hornady XTPHP). Big bore solids are stupidly predictable (the make a hole of crushed tissues at least as big as the diameter and usually perforate normal sized animals at any angle). So it leaves more time/energy to focus on achieving accuracy and consistency. For me big bore starts at about .43".

[Good Cheer]

I call them drag chute hollow points.:rolleyes:
It's that pop open and slow down behavior that made me go with as heavy as appeared to work.

[JoeJames]

Different caliber, more or less the same result:

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/44_Special_Expansion_800x400.png

Interesting. What weight were the HBWC's, and were they from Matt's Bullets? I do know that Matt will work with you on hardness; so I figure you could specify 40:1 alloy.

[curioushooter]

What medium were these bullets shot into?

Water is my guess. Without 4 layers of denim. And no depth of penetration data.

[pettypace]

What medium were these bullets shot into?

Water is my guess. Without 4 layers of denim. And no depth of penetration data.

Correct. Tests above (posts 20,23,32) were all fired into water-filled half gallon milk cartons with the bullets captured in pillow stuffing. No denim and no penetration data.

Tests below were fired into some well-used (and no longer very clear) Clear-Ballistic gel. The .38 wadcutter was fired from a snubby as a reality check when compared, for example, with Brassfetcher's snubby data here (https://brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html).

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/gello_pie_small.jpg

[Good Cheer]

Nice.
I've found .45's HPWC's much easier to expand than .38's.
Working now with .41's. Need to cast up a bunch and go back to load developments.

[pettypace]

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/shroom_and_chute_small.png

Bullet expansion at "leisurely" velocities may be more a problem of expanded bullet shape than of expanded bullet diameter.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

That could turn this six-shot Webley MP into a single shot.

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/Webley_MP_800x600.jpg

My bad, did not realize we were talking about that Webley.

[pettypace]

My bad, did not realize we were talking about that Webley.

So, you may have missed the old girl in (double) action (http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/Webley_MP.mp4).

[Good Cheer]

That is such a fine looking machine.
[smilie=w:

[Giggles]

I probably, i think, have hit that velocity with a 6" 357 and upside down speer hbwc. dirty as can be. but strangely more accurate then MOST lead round nose ive tried.

[pettypace]

I did a number of tests on properly calibrated (resistance match to pork loin and deer leg which are the same) gelatin. Water and other mediums (clay, mud, newspapers), except perhaps that synthetic gel, should be ignored. I did tests using water and not only is it useless for determining penetration (which is at least as important as expansion), it tends to exaggerate expansive properties of hollowpoints and diminish it with solids.

My findings were stunningly consistent. They could follow formula. And I suspect that millitaries throughout the world figured this out a long time ago.

Regarding handguns with solid cast bullets. No real expansion is observed at all until you are going somewhat above 1200 FPS impact velocity. You will observe deformation, but this isn't the same as the "mushrooming effect". Once you crank it up to 1400 or greater you start to observe effective expansion in solids. How many handguns have an impact velocity of 1400 FPS? I found 1100 FPS to be about a break point. Interestingly this is about the speed of sound in air at normal elevations.

With hollowpoints you observe consistent expansion down to about 750 FPS impact velocity or so. I like 800 FPS or more with a SOFT alloy containing no antimony, only tin. The problem is that at such low velocity there really isn't an abundance of momentum to carry that expanded bullet very deep. The classic 38 SPL+P loaded with a 158 grain or so soft SWCHP out of a 1 7/8" snubbie gets just under a foot of penetration, usually 9-10" with a 4 layer denim cover. This was recognized as an effective load because it is. No more effective non-jacketed load I have found for a snub nose 38. It basically defines cast hollow point performance at the bottom end of the performance envelope. Out a 4" revolver this load improves owning to the almost 100 FPS it can pick up, getting it to penetrate over a foot and still holding together.

Really soft hollow points fragment if you push them too hard. 850-900 FPS you will start to see fragging, not on every one usually, but sometimes "tearing". Like one of six or so. At 357 mag velocity you will frag unless the alloy is toughened up with more tin and copper. 16:1 works, so does an alloy I call 96-2-2. Which has equal by wight parts antimony and tin (together added at once ounce per pound), is harder than 16:1, and is cheaper as it has half as much tin. Once you are up to 3% antimony it seems to "crystallize" the alloy greatly increasing brittleness and will cause fragmentation to a significant degree. Wheel weights, especially older ones, seem to have too much antimony. Tin, if you can get some, is your friend.

One of epiphanies I had regarding cast hollowpoints is that they act like a little parachute. If you get expansion, you will reduce penetration, in almost a linear fashion I suspect. Penetration can be improved by lengthening the bullet (adding mass) or by increasing velocity (but this also may increase penetration or cause fragmentation which results in loss of mass and reduction of penetration). The straightforward way is to increase mass. This is why 38 SPL+P beats 9mm with cast bullets IMO.

Predicting the performance of hollowpints is not trivial. All my testing was done almost perfectly perpendicular to the gel block. The few tests I did at angles revealed that really big cast hollow point cavities with thin walls like to collapse rather than expand, sometimes you get a half expanded bullet or something (this is sadly true of that 38 SWCHP). It seriously eroded by "trust" in them. I found that jacketed hollowpoints are quite a different animal too. The much tougher jacket allows the use of very soft lead alloys for the core and it arrests expansion, prevents fragmentation, allowing the manufacturer to really dial in the performance profile. Of all the jacketed bullets I tested I have have some favorites. I even did "barrier" testing shooting plywood and my wife's cookie sheets. The Federal 130 grain HST bullet in their 38+P defensive loads is the last word in snub gun loads as far as I am concerned, though it is annoyingly difficult to use with a speedloader. And the Hornady 158 grain XTPHP in 357 full sized (4" barrel or longer) revolvers and the 180 grain XTPHP in 357 rifles. 147 grain XTPHP in 9mm loaded hot.

Compared to solids it is a chore. This is one of the reasons why I made a paradigm shift to using big bore cast solids instead of medium bore cast hollowpoints for handgun hunting (though I confess I still have a fondness for 357 Max with 180 grain Hornady XTPHP). Big bore solids are stupidly predictable (the make a hole of crushed tissues at least as big as the diameter and usually perforate normal sized animals at any angle). So it leaves more time/energy to focus on achieving accuracy and consistency. For me big bore starts at about .43".

curioushooter: There's a lot to digest here. Thanks for taking the time to get it all down.

I don't think it's mere coincidence that the .38 Federal HST bullet looks like a .38 version of the Webley "manstopper" that started this thread. At one point Eley loaded a .380 with mini-manstopper bullet -- I think 140 grains worth -- for commercial sale.

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/hst_manstopper.png

[35remington]

If I could critique the 38 130 HST it is that penetration when it expands is on the low end of FBI spec. Whether one thinks that okay may vary per the user.

[pettypace]

If I could critique the 38 130 HST it is that penetration when it expands is on the low end of FBI spec. Whether one thinks that okay may vary per the user.

Plenty of Clear Ballistics tests on the interweb. But here's one with "real" gelatin validated with a BB: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/Federal-38-Special-130gr-P-HST-in-Organic-Gel-Tested-/20-181119/

[pettypace]

If I could critique the 38 130 HST it is that penetration when it expands is on the low end of FBI spec. Whether one thinks that okay may vary per the user.

How about something more like this:

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/SuperPoliceManstopperMedium.jpg

Those are 200 grain .38's -- the first batch out of a new adjustable weight HPWC mould.

According to Hatcher, the original .38 Special Super Police load was good for about 625 f/s from a snubby. If we start there, VIRGEL shows maximum wound mass (using MacPherson's calculation) of about 33 grams at an expanded diameter of about 0.42" with about 17" of penetration. So long as expanded diameter is less than 0.50", penetration should keep the FBI happy.

[35remington]

I’d prefer something of more standard weight but have to admit that would be compelling.

The gel results there were about what I have seen. I do carry them in my 638 but have lead wadcutters on hand and switch them out sometimes. In an aluminum snubby not much faster than 710 fps seems controllable and will do around 16-21 inches depending upon whether swaged or cast.

Some might think this odd but I have to wonder if the Federal HST would be better if it did not expand. What do the models say about its penetration then? The small number I have tested averaged around 830 fps in my Smith.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Pettypace we need to meet up soon.

I have some 215 grain SWC that you can’t move much faster than 650 in a 38 special I remember correctly.
They would be great for some test fodder to drill HP cavities into.

Here they are loaded short and long in 38/357

299478

[pettypace]

Pettypace we need to meet up soon.

I have some 215 grain SWC that you can’t move much faster than 650 in a 38 special I remember correctly.
They would be great for some test fodder to drill HP cavities into.

Here they are loaded short and long in 38/357

299478


I'm looking forward to that, Mike. Are you still running casting fests?

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm looking forward to that, Mike. Are you still running casting fests?


Yessir. I should have one planned for October. I would love to have you swing down to it. Last time we did it in Taunton so a little closer to your neck of the woods

[pettypace]

Some might think this odd but I have to wonder if the Federal HST would be better if it did not expand. What do the models say about its penetration then? The small number I have tested averaged around 830 fps in my Smith.

A 130 grain 0.35" WC at 830 f/s should penetrate close to 20" in bare gel. But with that gaping hollow point, the HST might flip. Then, who knows? But I'd guess more than 12".

I'll see if I can scrounge up some HSTs. Maybe choke the cavity with hot melt glue and see what they do.

[pettypace]

From last week's Snubbyfest:

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/200HPWC01.jpg

[35remington]

Too much drag when it expands, and too much when it tumbles? Interesting.

I am indeed wondering if putting something light in the HST cavity would create an eventually tumbling wadcutter. Also an interesting concept.

[pettypace]

Too much drag when it expands, and too much when it tumbles? Interesting.

I am indeed wondering if putting something light in the HST cavity would create an eventually tumbling wadcutter. Also an interesting concept.

Here's a link to Webley's 1899 US patent application (http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/450_Adams/US634383.pdf) for the "manstopper" bullet. He notes in the application (lines 60-67) that "The rear end of the bullet is formed with another and similar recess or cavity, which both balances the bullet to secure accurate shooting and also admits of the metal of the said bullet at that end being expanded to take the riflings of the revolver-barrel."

With more foresight, I might have specified a single wide and deep grease groove near the base of that adjustable mould to help balance the HP cavity.

I wonder if the HST bullet has a hollow base?

So, maybe I should cast up some 130 grain HPWC's at, say, 16:1 and fill the HP with hot melt glue.

[35remington]

Hit 820-830 fps and call it close enough

[pettypace]

Hit 820-830 fps and call it close enough

I had just enough time before heading off to the Snubbyfest range to reset the new adjustable weight HPWC mould to about 130 grains and cast a handful from 16:1 alloy. Loaded with Bullseye and filled the HP cavity with hot-melt glue. Results, such as they are, shown below:

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/130grainHPWC.jpg

Probably nothing to be learned about HST's from this test. Only the first bullet (the only one fired into bare gel) "flipped." Of the four bullets fired through four layers of denim, two over-expanded and under-penetrated. Clearly, the hot-melt glue does not reliably control expansion, one way or the other.

The array of gello "slabs" used in this test is shown below. Note the expanded bullet that ended its penetration between slabs 7 and 8.

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/webster_box_01.jpg

More on the gello slabs later.

[35remington]

Just as a guess the spaced gelatin might enable more tumbling or penetration or maybe both in the nonexpanding examples. A nonexpanding bullet of this type may have a lot of variability so it may indicate something.

[pettypace]

Just as a guess the spaced gelatin might enable more tumbling or penetration or maybe both in the nonexpanding examples. A nonexpanding bullet of this type may have a lot of variability so it may indicate something.

Testing was not exactly "scientific" and the gello slabs open up a new can of worms. But the first shot was interesting because it appeared to come out of slab 5 nose first...

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/flip05.jpg

and go into slab 6 on its side...

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/flip06.jpg

I'm still gonna look for some HST's to test and something better than hot-melt glue to clog the cavity.

[Good Cheer]

In firing HPWC's down into five gallon buckets of water (from high enough to avoid most of the spray :) ) I found that tumbling was common. Not uncommon to see the side lip of the mushroom being the first thing to strike the bottom. Also happened with .45ACP expansion tests.

[Good Cheer]

.41 Mag with 2 1/2" barrel, ten grains of AA5, fired into water jelled paper.
http://i.imgur.com/8YplnmD.jpg (https://imgur.com/8YplnmD)
Decided on AA5 instead AA9 to keep the flash down.

[Good Cheer]

http://i.imgur.com/EQz8RMn.jpg (https://imgur.com/EQz8RMn)
Used the deeper hollow point plug.
http://i.imgur.com/nwefDNX.jpg (https://imgur.com/nwefDNX)

[35remington]

Interesting stuff.

If I could improve the HST it would be to get it to expand to a more modest diameter with more shank, but I suppose the engineering challenge is to get a shallower hollowpoint cavity to work properly with clothing. I think Federal is on to something here but it needs a 2.0 if possible. Which is why in many instances I still carry wadcutters.

[pettypace]

.41 Mag with 2 1/2" barrel, ten grains of AA5, fired into water jelled paper.
http://i.imgur.com/8YplnmD.jpg (https://imgur.com/8YplnmD)
Decided on AA5 instead AA9 to keep the flash down.

Well done, Good Cheer!

What weight, velocity, and alloy was that?

[Good Cheer]

Using the crimp groove, that's with the deeper plug adjusted out to the maximum boolit length that the cylinder allows; with the gas check they weight 208.5 grains. The mystery metal alloy is somewhere around medium for revolvers. I can carve corners with a thumb nail and the lube groove disappeared on the fired slug. I'm sure some zinc weights slipped in and there's some tin added for flow. About velocity, I haven't chronographed the 10 grain load yet.

The primers don't show much flattening at all. The boolit length behind the crimp groove is actually shorter than old standby #410610 so golly, it could likely take whatever the Lyman 45th Edition shows and jack it up from there. But, that said, it's already expanding rapidly with that medium range load of AA5.

[pettypace]

Here's some food for thought:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/wadcutters_01.jpg

Bullets on the left are commercial "Targetmaster" wadcutters from a stash left over from the good ol' days. I've been shooting a couple each session to try to "calibrate" the gello. Despite having virtually no hollow point cavity, these seem to consistently bump up to 0.38"-0.40". I haven't paid a lot of attention, but I know I've seen more or less the same thing through denim. (See Brassfetcher's data here (https://brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html).)

Bullets on the right are 200 grainers with a deep hollow point. Through water or bare gel, they consistently over-expand into what amounts to a 60 caliber wadcutter with insufficient penetration. I haven't done much testing, but through denim they seem inconsistent.

Here's the math for the target wadcutters:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/VIRGEL_target_WC.png

And for the over-expanding (and under-penetrating) 200 grainers:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/VIRGEL_200gr_WC_02.png

For comparison, here's what the FBI load looks like from a 4-inch barrel into bare gel:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/VIRGEL_FBI_load.png

Here's what a (hypothetical) .38 Special Super Police Target Wadcutter load might look like if it would consistently bump up to about 0.41".

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/VIRGEL_200gr_WC.png

And here's what Good Cheer's 41 mag HPWC might look like with a shallow cup hollow point that bumps up to 0.45".

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/41mag_WC.png

[Good Cheer]

Reminds me of the reports from the 1860's of revolvers' performance during the war, round ball versus conicals.

[pettypace]

Good Cheer: I was hoping you might be inspired to turn up another hollow point plug for that .41 Magnum mould. I'm thinking that something about half as deep as your shallow plug might bump the nose out to .45 caliber at modest velocity.

[Good Cheer]

Hey there.
Well, those three plugs shown in the picture are the ones I have. This set of blocks is a SWC altered to use the base plug set from my .40 caliber muzzleloader, paper patching. :smile:
The loads tested are of castings created using that longest cavity, the lightest weight boolit for the cylinder length while using the crimp groove. The smaller cavity plug is gonna get tried out eventually but the boolit could be crimped ahead of the front drive band too. That will let the boolit weight be run up some (smaller cavity and longer boolit) and still fit the cylinder length.
Any how, that's the plan for now.

[megasupermagnum]

Interesting stuff.

If I could improve the HST it would be to get it to expand to a more modest diameter with more shank, but I suppose the engineering challenge is to get a shallower hollowpoint cavity to work properly with clothing. I think Federal is on to something here but it needs a 2.0 if possible. Which is why in many instances I still carry wadcutters.

Why would they? The Federal HST is already about the best performing self-defense bullet on the market today. It reliably expands even at modest velocities, and short barrels, yet in every caliber or load I've seen have also penetrated more than 12" into ballistics gel. I don't see how expanding less would improve anything. If you want more penetration for hunting or whatever, Federal already has hunting bullets like the Fusion. They just don't work that good from a snub nose 38.

[35remington]

Because in a number of tests I’ve seen it often doesn’t reliably go 12.” For an example see link earlier in thread. Instead of being barely adequate in the best case scenario and often less than the suggested 12 inches in a lot of other tests I’d like to see four or five inches more.

It might be great in other calibers, but in 38 it is barely adequate at best and inadequate at other times. Not all HST is the best available in a particular caliber, and that is true here.

[pettypace]

I lifted the following from another thread: (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?442870-30-Super-Carry-with-Hand-Loaded-Cast-Boolits)



Standard caveats. Don’t try this at home. It worked in my gun this time. Don’t know if it’ll work in yours.

At this time there is no loading data available for 30 Super Carry. But that doesn’t matter because I used a surplus powder that is not listed loading manuals. It is very close AA#5. It is not BR5. I worked up to a charge of 5.5 grains. The primers looked very much like full throttle 357 loads but not as flat as 220 Swift loads.
...

The boolit I used was Accurate 31-117E cast 96% Pb, 2% Sb and 2% Sn, air cooled, aged 1 week, lubed with Felix lube, sized 0.316”.
...

I chronographed all the loads today at 97 degrees F. Yep a hot day in May in Central Texas. 5 shot strings.
...

My final load of 5.5 of a surplus #5 type powder, 117 grain boolit gave 1153 fps, sdev 6, hi 1161, lo 1146, es 15 fps.
...

I fired the hand load into a row of 10, 1-gallon water jugs. The first jug was shredded, the second ripped, the third just holed both sides, the fourth caught the boolit. The fifth jug was hit hard enough to pop the sealed top from the jug. The boolit expanded from the 0.304” nose OD to 0.430-0.440”.

300433

The 50k psi pressure 30 Super Carry can run does allow it to punch above its weight.

Much thanks to shooting on a shoestring for the details and the picture.

While 1150 f/s is not exactly a "leisurely" velocity and 50k psi is a bit strong for Victorian era handguns, the picture clearly shows the ability of wadcutter bullets to "rivet" up to significantly larger diameters with no hollow point cavity at all. In this case, a .31 caliber wadcutter turned into .44 caliber wadcutter after hitting a plastic jug of water at 1150 f/s.

The last "Targetmaster" wadcutter I fired from my snubby bumped up from .35 caliber to .40 caliber on hitting bare C-B gel at about 650 f/s.

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/Targetmaster_expansion.jpg

I wonder what a soft lead wadcutter with a shallow saucer-shaped cavity would do through four layers of denim?

[pettypace]

I wonder what a soft lead wadcutter with a shallow saucer-shaped cavity would do through four layers of denim?

In a rush job before last week's Snubbyfest I made some .38 caliber, 172 grain, soft lead HPHBWCs with a simple wooden jig clamped to the drill press table. Here are the results of three shots fired from a snubby through four layers of well worn denim backed by a half-gallon milk carton full of water and into an array of 1.2 inch thick slabs of C-B gell at about 675 f/s.

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/HP_jig_05.jpg

The expanded diameters of all three bullets ranged from 0.40" to 0.41". All three bullets penetrated through 11 slabs of the gello with one going about half way through the next slab.

Assuming that nose shape justifies treating these as wadcutters rather than mushrooms, here's what the models predict for penetration and wound mass:

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/HP_jig_06.png

This is deeper penetration and about the same or more wound mass than most premium .38 Special ammo from a snubby (see, for example, brassfetcher's data here (https://brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html)). It makes me think a little work on a heavy .38 Special version of Webley's "manstopper" design might be worthwhile.

[35remington]

A bit surprised the denim didn’t clog things up but what the heck it seems to work fairly well. For various reasons I’d like to stick to more standard weight. Would not be surprising if the 38 snubby is optimized with a lead bullet.

[Good Cheer]

A dry medium will usually result in outward expansion of a HPWC if the alloy is soft enough and the velocity is high enough, a function of the outside of the nose wall being supported less than the inside.

[pettypace]

A bit surprised the denim didn’t clog things up but what the heck it seems to work fairly well. For various reasons I’d like to stick to more standard weight. Would not be surprising if the 38 snubby is optimized with a lead bullet.

As you expected, the denim had its effect.

http://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/expansion/3_HPHBWCs.jpg

Left: Unfired. Middle: CB gel slabs only. Right: 4LD + milk carton H20 + CB gel slabs

In bare gel, the shallow DIY hollow point bumped to about 0.45" and seemed consistent for the three shots fired. With the denim, the general shape was less consistent but the diameter stayed between 0.40" and 0.41" for the three shots fired.

[44MAG#1]

I now wonder, after different threads and many post on this subject what has been determined to be the very best manstopper/defense/carry caliber and load that one can possibly get. I want it.
Can the absolutely the best now be determined?

[Outpost75]

I think the best record of one-shot stops has been well established recently in Ukraine with the M777 self-propelled 155mm howitzer.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Can the absolutely the best now be determined?

No.

[Savvy Jack]

I did some work with the help of John Kort several years ago with the soft lead Lyman 42499 44-40 Hollow Point. I cna post more photos and info when I get home. The Gel Tests did pretty good.
301114

[Good Cheer]

I now wonder, after different threads and many post on this subject what has been determined to be the very best manstopper/defense/carry caliber and load that one can possibly get. I want it.
Can the absolutely the best now be determined?

Seems that's what's best for one person is never the best for another.
For me the choice is obvious. And my choice would of course be met with derision from all the other know-it-alls!
[smilie=l:

[44MAG#1]

Seems that's what's best for one person is never the best for another.
For me the choice is obvious. And my choice would of course be met with derision from all the other know-it-alls!
[smilie=l:

I thought I had what worked figured out in my mind too.
I thought a 45 Auto with good ammo would be alright.

[pettypace]

I thought I had what worked figured out in my mind too.
I thought a 45 Auto with good ammo would be alright.

Probably "alright" for you but not so good for the guy who owns only, say, a .38 snubby.

And just out of curiosity, exactly what do you mean by "good ammo" for your .45?

[44MAG#1]

Probably "alright" for you but not so good for the guy who owns only, say, a .38 snubby.

And just out of curiosity, exactly what do you mean by "good ammo" for your .45?

Well, I would consider FMJRN not good carry ammo. I would consider ammo with the Speer Gold Dot 200/230, Hornady 200/230XTP, the Federal 230 hollow points, and the like good ammo meaning it would be good compared to FMJRN but regardless what I or anyone else will pick, someone else will say something else is better and then someone else will bring up something else being better than what the other two someones said is better and then someone else will bring up something else being better than the other 3 someones said is better and so on and so forth until it is like a dog chasing its tail.
So with that being said the word good is a relative term. Good compared to what? Good compared by who and who's authority? Could something be good but at the same time not be good depending on the situation? Could something be good for ALL situations but not be the best for any one of the individual situations in the situations that make up the ALL situations?
Let me know.

[Good Cheer]

I thought I had what worked figured out in my mind too.
I thought a 45 Auto with good ammo would be alright.

It's easy to make full weight boolits pancake in a .45ACP. The hard part was me realizing that a heavy round nosed mold could be hollow pointed to reliably go splat, have a dependably feeding contour and be heavy enough to keep on pushing through. The old Ideal / Lyman round nose gas check hardball mold worked really well with the copper bottom over the soft alloy.
http://i.imgur.com/vLblU90.jpg (https://imgur.com/vLblU90)

[cainttype]

Heavy .358s from a snubby at 725 fps.
Deep, straight-line penetration and reliable expansion has been “The Rule” through years of use.

[44MAG#1]

This is the search for the absolutely perfect bullet to do everything possible in all possible situations that anyone can imagine.
It is an endless endeavor that will never stop due to that desire to have the perfect bullet, perfect cartridge and the perfect handgun to fire it in.

[cainttype]

“This” is nothing more than a thread about expanding bullets at low velocities, you should stop trying to define a discussion that you apparently can’t contribute too.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice…


My tip is be very leery of any thread dealing with STOPPING POWER.
Those threads never solve anything that I've ever known of.

Look up “Troll” when you get a chance.
It isn’t up to you what others discuss here, and your never-ending attempts to disrupt threads YOU don’t approve of is nothing more than an ignorant display of poor manners.

[M-Tecs]

I fully understand the concept and need for the manstopper type bullet back in 1899. They were developed to provide the best possible stopping performance in marginal calibers of the day. What I don't understand is why someone would carry a large full-size handgun like a 44 Mag. loaded down to 700 FPS. Even in a 44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog 700 FPS would be considered anemic by todays standards.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/10/charter-arms-bulldog-a-wheelgun-for-everyday-protection/#:~:text=Charter%20Arms%20offers%20a%20stainless%2 0Bulldog%20%28top%29%20with,powerful%2C%20the.44%2 0Bulldog%20is%20perfect%20for%20self-defense%20applications.

[44MAG#1]

I fully understand the concept and need for the manstopper type bullet back in 1899. They were developed to provide the best possible stopping performance in marginal calibers of the day. What I don't understand is why someone would carry a large full-size handgun like a 44 Mag. loaded down to 700 FPS. Even in a 44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog 700 FPS would be considered anemic by todays standards.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/10/charter-arms-bulldog-a-wheelgun-for-everyday-protection/#:~:text=Charter%20Arms%20offers%20a%20stainless%2 0Bulldog%20%28top%29%20with,powerful%2C%20the.44%2 0Bulldog%20is%20perfect%20for%20self-defense%20applications.

It maybe that that person may like the gun they are carrying.
People load down even the smaller guns, smaller caliber and even long barreled handguns.

[M-Tecs]

It maybe that that person may like the gun they are carrying.
People load down even the smaller guns, smaller caliber and even long barreled handguns.

I shoot a lot of very light loads for fun, targets and SASS. For self-defense I want the most potent load that is safe in that firearm.

[44MAG#1]

I shoot a lot of very light loads for fun, targets and SASS. For self-defense I want the most potent load that is safe in that firearm.

You must not have downloaded VIRGEL then. It has changed me.

[M-Tecs]

You must not have downloaded VIRGEL then. It has changed me.

Never bothered to look at it. I just base my opinion on having shot a significant number of big game animals and lots of varmints/small game. I have been avidly shooting prairie dogs for over 40 years. A slow year is about 2,000 killed. Most was about 7,500.

I also read a lot of history. Cartridges like the 38 Long Colt and 450 Adams had a very very poor reputation in actual usage.

In the 70's shot a lot of jack rabbits with my Colt Gold Cup. GI Ball 45 ACP was very unimpressive against jackrabbits. The Speer 200 JHP flying ashtray were very impressive.

[pettypace]

Even in a 44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog 700 FPS would be considered anemic by todays standards.


I wouldn't define "anemic" (or "adequate" or "awesome" for that matter) strictly in terms of velocity. A better definition would involve both penetration and wound mass.

A hard-cast 220 grain wadcutter at 650 f/s from a CA Bulldog will easily satisfy the FBI penetration requirement and produce about the same wound mass as the vaunted .38 Special FBI Load. Not "awesome," but probably "adequate" and certainly not "anemic" despite its leisurely velocity.

[44MAG#1]

48 percent more DWM.
According to Mr VIRGEL.

[pettypace]

You must not have downloaded VIRGEL then. It has changed me.

VIRGEL seems to have made you obsessive!

[44MAG#1]

VIRGEL seems to have made you obsessive!

It is thought provoking. I have been provoking thoughts now since I heard of it.
What happened to STUBBYFEST HIT SIMULATOR. I thought it was awesome?

[M-Tecs]

I wouldn't define "anemic" (or "adequate" or "awesome" for that matter) strictly in terms of velocity. A better definition would involve both penetration and wound mass.

A hard-cast 220 grain wadcutter at 650 f/s from a CA Bulldog will easily satisfy the FBI penetration requirement and produce about the same wound mass as the vaunted .38 Special FBI Load. Not "awesome," but probably "adequate" and certainly not "anemic" despite its leisurely velocity.

Not my terms. "Anemic" is the term used by both Bristish soldiers using the 450 Adams and US Soldiers using the 38 Long Colt in actual combat. Granted they mostly were using round nose lead so wound mass may have been different than a WC but as a combat round the 450 Adams and the 38 Long Colt had a very short military history. The 38 Long Colt performance was so "anemic" it was replaced in theater by 1873 45 Colts and its failures in combat greatly influenced the development of 45 ACP and the 1911.

Probably "adequate" means is might also be inadequate so yes it might be lacking power so that fits the definition of anemic. I really don't care to play word games or for the matter I don't care what others carry. I do know I have zero interest in duplicating perform that per actual historical usage was deemed lacking.

[pettypace]

I wouldn't define "anemic" (or "adequate" or "awesome" for that matter) strictly in terms of velocity. A better definition would involve both penetration and wound mass.

A hard-cast 220 grain wadcutter at 650 f/s from a CA Bulldog will easily satisfy the FBI penetration requirement and produce about the same wound mass as the vaunted .38 Special FBI Load. Not "awesome," but probably "adequate" and certainly not "anemic" despite its leisurely velocity.

What I'm suggesting is a "paradigm shift" away from the current "velocity/energy" focus and toward a new "penetration/wound mass" focus.

Of course, the importance of penetration and wound mass over velocity and energy is not some new idea I just dreamed up. It was the takeaway from the Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson%E2%80%93LaGarde_Tests) and clearly stated in Special Agent Urey Patrick's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness (http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf):

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

Yet, the manufacturers of self-defense ammunition all report and advertise velocity and energy, all but ignoring the results of laboratory gel testing for penetration and permanent cavity wound mass.

I suppose it makes sense: if the aficianados here continue to emphasize velocity and energy over penetration and wound mass, we can't expect more from the manufacturers.

[44MAG#1]

What I'm suggesting is a "paradigm shift" away from the current "velocity/energy" focus and toward a new "penetration/wound mass" focus.

Of course, the importance of penetration and wound mass over velocity and energy is not some new idea I just dreamed up. It was the takeaway from the Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson%E2%80%93LaGarde_Tests) and clearly stated in Special Agent Urey Patrick's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness (http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf):

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

Yet, the manufacturers of self-defense ammunition all report and advertise velocity and energy, all but ignoring the results of laboratory gel testing for penetration and permanent cavity wound mass.

I suppose it makes sense: if the aficianados here continue to emphasize velocity and energy over penetration and wound mass, we can't expect more from the manufacturers.
Until I found VIRGEL I used to carry ammo such as two expanding bullets as the first two out of the gun with the rest FMJ Flat Points in my 45 Autos.
Mainly my Glock M30. Now I carry lately my M69 Smith with 247 gr bullets at a loafing 700 FPS.
The 44 Bullets while NOT A FULL wadcutter they have a Meplat of .380 inch. I know that is an "also ran" compared to a full wadcutter but hopefully I can hit a vital area. .050" is a crucial difference in the DWM or WTI.
One day I will get a full wadcutter mold of maybe 180 to 200 grains but at 70 years old I may not.

[pettypace]

Until I found VIRGEL I used to carry ammo such as two expanding bullets as the first two out of the gun with the rest FMJ Flat Points in my 45 Autos.
Mainly my Glock M30. Now I carry lately my M69 Smith with 247 gr bullets at a loafing 700 FPS.
The 44 Bullets while NOT A FULL wadcutter they have a Meplat of .380 inch. I know that is an "also ran" compared to a full wadcutter but hopefully I can hit a vital area. .050" is a crucial difference in the DWM or WTI.
One day I will get a full wadcutter mold of maybe 180 to 200 grains but at 70 years old I may not.

Mags,

I'm happy that you "found VIRGEL." You make it sound almost like a religious experience! But you may be missing something VIRGEL is trying to tell you.

Here's what VIRGEL says about a good .45 ACP JHP (in this case a Hornady 230 grain XTP) like you "used to carry" in your Glock 30:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_MSH_65_230_930.png

Many consider 16" of bare gel penetration ideal and it won't be easy to do better than 58 grams of wound mass with something you can hold in one hand.

And here's VIRGEL's take on a .44 caliber 245 grain full wadcutter at 700 f/s:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_45_245_700.png

Some might consider 20" of penetration to be over-penetration. And while 41 grams of wound mass is nothing to trifle with, it's about in the same league as the best 9mm JHPs or maybe even the classic FBI Load from a 4" .38 Special.

I think I'd go back to the Glock 30 with the whole magazine loaded with 230 grain XTPs.

[44MAG#1]

Mags,

I'm happy that you "found VIRGEL." You make it sound almost like a religious experience! But you may be missing something VIRGEL is trying to tell you.

Here's what VIRGEL says about a good .45 ACP JHP (in this case a Hornady 230 grain XTP) like you "used to carry" in your Glock 30:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_MSH_65_230_930.png

Many consider 16" of bare gel penetration ideal and it won't be easy to do better than 58 grams of wound mass with something you can hold in one hand.

And here's VIRGEL's take on a .44 caliber 245 grain full wadcutter at 700 f/s:

https://rewebster.org/pics/Virgel_WC_45_245_700.png

Some might consider 20" of penetration to be over-penetration. And while 41 grams of wound mass is nothing to trifle with, it's about in the same league as the best 9mm JHPs or maybe even the classic FBI Load from a 4" .38 Special.

If it were me, I think I'd go back to the Glock 30 with the whole magazine loaded with 230 grain XTPs.

You are most certainly right. But I still will carry the first two out of that Glock JHP's and the rest FMJ Flat Points.
Now I have stooped down to the 357 Mag with a Wadcutter at 650 to 700 FPS.
Probably will eventually get down to a 25 ACP. The local gun shop has a couple.

[charlie b]

Back in the 'old days' we went after velocity to get reliable expansion of HP bullets. .45acp 185 and 200 gn JHP's at 1000fps were kinda the norm. Anything less and they didn't expand reliably. Also back then any type of thick clothing (even denim) would 'clog' the bullets and prevent expansion. This was also the time when many law enforcement agencies insisted on the .357mag and 125gn JHP's. Reliable expansion in almost any circumstance.

IMHO, the Winchester Silvertips were the first ones to show reliable expansion with short barrel .45acp. Now days almost all of the JHP's are reliable and, because of the FBI requirements, they will expand even when shooting through heavy clothing.

So, lusting after the extra 100 to 200fps is not 'worth it' anymore.

That puts us back to the question, is an expanded JHP more lethal than a non-expanded SWC or WFN? They do create a slightly larger wound channel, but, is that enough to be worth the 'trouble'? Fackler showed us that the extra dia of an expanded HP is not a huge game changer, especially in thin skinned animals It is the location of the wound channel that is important.

So, we are coming full circle kinda. Good SWC or WFN (or WC) at a velocity that gives full penetration.

[44MAG#1]

Back in the 'old days' we went after velocity to get reliable expansion of HP bullets. .45acp 185 and 200 gn JHP's at 1000fps were kinda the norm. Anything less and they didn't expand reliably. Also back then any type of thick clothing (even denim) would 'clog' the bullets and prevent expansion. This was also the time when many law enforcement agencies insisted on the .357mag and 125gn JHP's. Reliable expansion in almost any circumstance.

IMHO, the Winchester Silvertips were the first ones to show reliable expansion with short barrel .45acp. Now days almost all of the JHP's are reliable and, because of the FBI requirements, they will expand even when shooting through heavy clothing.

So, lusting after the extra 100 to 200fps is not 'worth it' anymore.

That puts us back to the question, is an expanded JHP more lethal than a non-expanded SWC or WFN? They do create a slightly larger wound channel, but, is that enough to be worth the 'trouble'? Fackler showed us that the extra dia of an expanded HP is not a huge game changer, especially in thin skinned animals It is the location of the wound channel that is important.

So, we are coming full circle kinda. Good SWC or WFN (or WC) at a velocity that gives full penetration.

W.D.M. Karamojo Bell proved that placement is more important than what you hit them with.

[charlie b]

Yep, Bell was one of my childhood heros. I always wanted a pre-war Mauser in 7x57. Just have never been able to justify the cost :)

[M-Tecs]

SD and hunting/culling are much different. When hunting/culling you normally pick the shot and placement. With self-defense you are forced to use deadly force by the aggressor so it's much like facing down a charge.

I've slaughtered many steers and hogs with a 22LR with zero issues with some pushing 1,200 pounds. I've only killed one Bologna bull and that was with a 22 Mag with zero issues yet that would be one of the last cartridges I would want to fend off a charge from an angry 2,200-pound bull.

Yes, shot placement is huge but what happens when it's a little off or underpowered is also a significant concern.

[44MAG#1]

Yes, shot placement is huge but what happens when it's a little off or underpowered is also a significant concern.
I guess you just empty the gun at them.
Really I said what I said because someone will use proper shot placement to cap off the conversation.
Why, who can argue against it? Like saying a 44 Magnum to the foot is not as effective as a 22RF to the brain.

[charlie b]

But, some people used to believe that a .44mag hit anywhere was good enough to stop anything (some might still believe that). Some still believe a shotgun is a 'point in the general direction' weapon and it will throw the target back 10 feet and kill them instantly, no matter where it hits.

Yes, shot placement and enough penetration are still key. And it is a cap to any conversation about effective calibers. It is what determines the effective range of a weapon, which includes the skill of the user and the circumstances of the shot. Even VIRGEL supports this. Yes, the permanent wound channel might be 1" instead of 1/2", but, unless you hit something vital it doesn't stop the target. It might eventually kill them from blood loss but that takes time.

If I were to face the close in charge of a bull/grizzly/etc I'd want a lot more than a rifle or pistol. I know I could not hit a vital organ in the time given with a moving/bouncing target (unless I got really lucky). I had to admit that years ago when I actually tried a charging/moving target scenario.