Lyman 045 alignment problem?

[Shuz]

Is there a way to verify that the top part of the tool is in alignment with the bottom part that holds the sizing dies?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am assuming you are talking about a lube sizer. I use a Top punch with a diameter that is near exact same size as the lube size Die. Lower the top punch into the Die and visually inspect. If you are talking about a Lyman 450, be sure to check for ram wobble (front to back), as that is the achilles heel of that design.

[beagle]

Ray. Short answer. No!
With the tolerances maintained by both Lyman and RCBS it's impossible. Bunch of us kicked this around one winter by e-mail. Thought you were in the loop but maybe you were down in Jamacia drinking high test Pina Colladas.
These are the problems:
Fit of die to housing,
Fit of top punch to housing.
Alignment of upper housing to lower housing through its travel.
Concentricity of sizing die externally.
Concentricity of top punch attaching shaft.
Earlier on, concentricity of mould.
Each of these induces a little play/error/sloppiness into the equation. The combined error is atrocious.
We discussed fixes and improved designs and ended up with a sizer that was great but would run $2,000 per unit.
The only way to eliminate the alignment problem is with a nose first sizing rig like Lee's. And then come back and lube.
After much gnawing on this bone, we decided we better be glad for what we had and moved on as Ideal had solved this problem years ago with the sizing chamber for the 310 tool.
Of course, we have to have convenience and no mess. The Kake Cutter grease tended to get on light switches and annoy the management so we went to a lubricator/sizer./beagle

[Shuz]

Thanks for the answers guys!
I guess I have been lucky down thru the 50 plus years that I have used a Lyman 045 until about the past two years or so. When I lived on the ranch, most of my sizing was on the 045 with dies for the .44 mag. But now that I am shooting more rifles at the Spokane rifle club, and getting very poor results, I started looking for a scapegoat. Low and behold, I shot a .828" 5 shot group at 100 yards with a bullet design of NOE'S 260 105 that was sent to me already lubed, sized .258 and gas checked by my good friend Alex(Rainier). So I loaded them up and they shot better than any of my .250 Savage rounds over the past couple of years. So....I buy that mould from Al, and sized them to .258 outta the same basic alloy as Alex. These boolits measured. 258 after sizing, so I figgered all was well. When I shot these boolits at a match last Saturday, I got 2 to 4" 5 shot groups. Worst I ever shot. Luckily I had some of Alex's boolits that I was able to shoot in the 10 shot group and score part of the match. I shot 2/ea 10 shot groups that were both way better than any of the 5 shot groups with my sized boolits! I then proceeded to shoot a decent score of 180 with Alex's boolits. When I got home I noticed that the front band on this design was only .254" on my boolits and was .256 or .257 on those from Alex. I then also noticed that some of my boolits had that small front band of .254 touched by my .258 die!!! How can that be unless there is misalignment somewhere in my sizing that doesn't happen on Alex's RCBS sizer!
Now thats the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say.
So....How can I get these boolits properly sized to .258 ?

[RickinTN]

Because of the same issue with an RCBS machine I size all of my bullets with a Lee push through sizer and lube them in an RCBS machine with a die that is at least .001" larger than the bullet. I like .002" larger better. No more crooked bullets.
Rick

[MT Gianni]

Long, thin bullets tend to be more warped than shorter, fat ones. Somewhere on one of the early versions of the board was a sticky of aligning the 45 Lyman sizer with set screws holding the ram in an straighter position. It almost seems like a straight push through die and PC'ing would eliminate the run out.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I'll throw my nickel at the wall: This is basically why I went to push through sizing like others said above. LEE & NOE, I don't really care so far.
I find my base first LAM II fine if it just barely touches the bullet. Otherwise, not so much.
I ran a 50 yd accuracy test using a 44 Mag w/ 260 GC LBT WFN bullets that I visually sorted as "good" and ever so slightly mis-sized. Wowzer. Some of the second key holed.
You could probably avoid some mess by using an oversize base first to lube, followed by a push through nose first to size. I see others suggested similar/same, and that thought would be my first if I had discarded pan lubing prior to sizing (which I do).

[Shuz]

Here's the problem with the Lee push thru dies......they don't offer it in 25 caliber(.258).
I have 2 other Lyman 045's and I will see if they do a better job. I am also gonna ask my buddy Matt to size and check some 260-105s for me in my old Saeco .258 machine he bought from me when I was downsizing from the ranch. As I recall now, I never had a problem with my .258 boolits when I sized them in the. Saeco. I just got tired of changing dies in that press. Looks now, like that was a mistake! ��[smilie=b:

[Shuz]

Looks like the problem is about to be resolved! A member of this board offered to sell me a .258 push thru die setup!

[1hole]

A Purely Personal Opinion (aren't they all?):

Lubrasizers aren't made with watchmaker precision and that's good, we couldn't afford them if they were.

Those devices cannot possibly be made tight enough to forcefully align themselves with the bullets so they have been designed to have enough of the sloppy moving parts working backwards to allow the bullets to guide the loosely held parts and that usually allows the floating parts to near perfectly align themselves.

Even so, there are several places in the Lyman/RCBS type lubesizers that can have alignment problems if the parts' tolerances stack the wrong way.


I was startled. I thought my eyes must have suddenly gotten cross wired when I read some folk seriously noting that another of Lee's simplistic so-called "entry level" tool designs actually beats the green one ... again! :)

[45DUDE]

Mold not dropping the boolit large enough? Put a dial indicator on the top band of the boolit and compare it to the top band of the accurate boolits and make sure yours are round on top. See how the different finished boolits weigh. My 045 uses a different sizer than a 450. A 450 die will work in a tight but will leak a small amount. <they do on mine>. Correct die? My 045 doesn't require an 0ring. I pull the handle and seat it with the top punch and lock the screw.

[Green Frog]

Shuz, I have encountered Models 45 and 450 Lubri-Sizers from Lyman, but have never heard of the 045. The single body casting of the 450 defines its alignment (until it wears out) but it seems that the earlier 45 has more potential slop built into its design.

Froggie

[Shuz]

Froggie-- All these years I have been calling my 45 Lyman an 045!
Don't know why...just did!
I delivered some freshly cast NOE 260-105's to Matt today. It may take a few weeks for me to get them back after he sizes them.
In the meantime I have a push thru. 258 coming in the mail and we'll see how that goes.
Question..Is it possible that a cast boolit like the 260-105 can mic .258 on the driving bands and still be bent so as to shoot poorly?

[beagle]

Ray,
I had a custom made .259" Lee push thru. When Orygun Mark and I got the nose first sizers running, I gave it to somebody. Thought it might have been you. Check your stash. You were the only person I knew at the time who was messing with .25s. Custom Lee wasn't much $$./Beagle

[Geezer in NH]

I do not use the screw to secure the top punh. Bullet lube the shaft and top of the seater and push it up. The bullet lube sticks it but does let it float to the center of the sizing die, learned that when I first started in the 70's from a match shooter.

[Shuz]

Ray,
I had a custom made .259" Lee push thru. When Orygun Mark and I got the nose first sizers running, I gave it to somebody. Thought it might have been you. Check your stash. You were the only person I knew at the time who was messing with .25s. Custom Lee wasn't much $$./Beagle

John,
Wasn't me the recipient of the. 259 die. I have had a Lyman 257 die that Lloyd G. Opened up for me about 15 years ago. It mics .2594
My old Remington 700 in .250 Savage like that size. My Savage 16 seem to prefer. 258 diameter.

[Shuz]

I do not use the screw to secure the top punh. Bullet lube the shaft and top of the seater and push it up. The bullet lube sticks it but does let it float to the center of the sizing die, learned that when I first started in the 70's from a match shooter.

Ive tried that and it seems that every time the top punch comes out and sticks on the boolit when the handle is raised.
To your point tho, exact fitting top punches may not be ideal. For example when I ordered the 260-105 fro NOE, I also ordered the "correct " top punch. It was when using this top punch that I first noticed the .254-.255 dimension on the first band was being hit by the. 258 die. Lately I have been using another 25 caliber punch and it has enough slop that the first band is not touched anymore!

[Shuz]

I still wonder if a boolit can mic .258 on the driving bands and still be bent so that the boolits don't shoot well?
( I don't have a dial indicator set up)

[beagle]

Ray, run one through the sizer and don't apply lube. Take one of your wife's pictures off the wall and place it fairly level on the bench and let it roll. If it's bent, you'll see a slight looping motion of the nose if bent. Quietly sneak picture back on wall and hope you don't get caught. My long 25-120-SP RCBS bullets were so bad I detected it when one rolled on the bench but a smooth surface like glass works better. That's when I went to the nose first sizer. I think the long, unsupported .25 was bent when seating GC and an unheated lubricator sizer caused more stress and caused the bending. Corrected both problems and they were all right. Doesn't happen with short .25s./beagle

[Shuz]

John,
I have that RCBS 25-120 SP mould and I will try your rolling technique, but I will use a piece of plate glass that I have for sanding my mould sprue plates and other mould maintenance.
Sandy's pictures are all warped after 60 years of putting up with me!
Would you consider that NOE 260-105 to be "long for caliber "?

[45DUDE]

How does any reloader get by without a dial caliper? That's like not owning jumper cables.

[45DUDE]

Shuz, I have encountered Models 45 and 450 Lubri-Sizers from Lyman, but have never heard of the 045. The single body casting of the 450 defines its alignment (until it wears out) but it seems that the earlier 45 has more potential slop built into its design.

Froggie

I'm not sure they wear out. I have one like new and the ram to body is looser than my other 6.