Shooting for 1/2 Ounce in .38 cal: How Far Down the Bore?

[Daekar]

As some of you may be aware, I have somewhat committed to standardizing on the 357 magnum case for most of my guns. YMMV, but it seems to do everything I need a gun to do (except fit 8+ rounds in a J-frame, but I digress...).

One of the things I haven't ever been able to put my hands on is those darned expensive .38 caliber shot capsules made by Speer or whoever it is, so I thought I would look into printing some to play with. I disassembled one of the 20ga target cartridges for my wife's O/U (shhhh, don't tell her) and that yielded 7/8 ounce of #9 lead shot, so that's what I have to play with.

I was trying to determine what kind of load weight might make the shotshell in 357 a bit more effective (we have some real pressure headroom to play with if desired...) and I settled on the 1/2 ounce I noted from a 410 target load. 410 isn't a powerhouse, but sure is better than shaking a stick. The gun this is intended for is a T/C Encore with a 12" barrel and a 357magnum chamber, although it should work in any single-shot gun that chambers 358 projectiles. I printed a prototype capsule which has an overall length of 32mm (just over 1-1/4") and two diameters: 0.359" for the part which seats in the case and 0.347" for the part which extends into the bore. Right now, the current design has 17.3mm (0.68") of length which extends outside the case and it holds 130gr (0.297 ounces) of #9 shot. I need 0.203 ounces (88.8gr) more to reach an even 1/2oz. load, so call it an additional 70% volume. That would put the overall capsule length at 54.4mm or 2.14". That's 39.7mm (1.56") protruding from the case.

Bearing in mind that I have no experience with this kind of device, I don't see anything immediately obvious which would cause problems having the capsule project that far into the bore. Are there any issues I should keep in mind as I move forward with my experimenting?

[truckjohn]

Can you fit 1/2 ounce of shot into a 357 mag case?

I would start off wherever the existing shot loads are for 38spl/357 mag. I'm guessing a lot smaller than 1/2 oz.

My issue with pistol shot is bad behavior due to rifled barrels. I get massive donut patterns past about 10-feet.

[Daekar]

Can you fit 1/2 ounce of shot into a 357 mag case?

I would start off wherever the existing shot loads are for 38spl/357 mag. I'm guessing a lot smaller than 1/2 oz.

My issue with pistol shot is bad behavior due to rifled barrels. I get massive donut patterns past about 10-feet.

Well it depends on what you mean by "fit in a case." Will it fit inside the case itself? Eh, probably not. I didn't try, but it looks to me like the overall length of the capsule needs to be longer than the overall length of the brass - thus the question about having it extend down the bore.

I share your concern about poor patterns out of rifled barrels. I was thinking that increasing the pattern density by significantly increasing the payload might help with that. Could be totally wrong!

[truckjohn]

A 410 shell is 2 1/2" long, or thereabouts... That's a smidge larger... ;)

What about making some sort of segmented bullet that's swaged together.. Glasers are famous for these, but CCI makes them for 22's as well.

Maybe even 2-pellets of round ball.

Anyhoo... There are several articles about shot shells in pistols that list out stuff like charges and shot weights... ;)

[Dusty Bannister]

The Speer shot capsule is .355". Have you considered a paper sleeve similar to a paper cartridge?

[BK7saum]

I loaded full length 357 max brass as shotshells in my 38 and 357. The case held about 175 grains of lead "dust". So that will be about the most you can get weight wise in a 38 or 357 cylinder.

[besk]

TC used to make 357 Hot Shots -- loaded ammunition that contained approximately 1/2 oz of shot.
There are some for sale on Gunbroker.com right now.

TC also used to sell the capsules filled with shot various shot sizes. TC's load data listed 9 gr. of Bullseye. Pretty heavy load it seems to me.

[Outpost75]

A WW2 era .45 ACP M15 shot held 1/4 oz. The .44-40 Game Getter shot 1/3 oz. USGI 70mm M35 case 1/2 oz. Speer .38/.357 capsule 115 grains, about 1/4 oz.

[Daekar]

So it's funny that T/C actually sold what I am trying to make. Even funnier that they look really similar! My capsule is this long skinny plastic thing... here it is next to a 357mag case:
https://snz04pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mtkDBw4sZPDslqU85NUpLpVRGN9klEw8CjFr9dCr4skqCabD 2Zq_WSkWsw16TkMxTagadDyq-8ewZ5l_7ZaiUWb9dakPxSgM712jm0lasME2JzS65CjA_9yc6ER NVhXI_z6J4hZIz6MSgvl81ZtTPI-ZHgX5ojRJUsbyGCBJVVHems8uv4jy7W3mfeWWnG-ky?width=1024&height=740&cropmode=none

Looks pretty funny when seated to the intended depth:
https://snz04pap002files.storage.live.com/y4m0auY54UGxQuger9VED4eMJHfasT3oUtqjveGvC16dfx6jtz p_U-2M8Ryz_Op4SAxpksbnhXX9-1j4IGz6S-KXoTUNX7bAJulfa-irvq6EeShryksNWyKEAQpEEo0GT9DVIUhA9IW3Wn87JYutK4hH mkQAA7KapjPLkoM1lG1MrS0hxJxTOg-XY_GJIwKMr1V?width=927&height=1024&cropmode=none

There's a payoff though... It holds 240gr, or over 1/2 oz. of #9 shot:
https://snz04pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mrGgw0gGHcJeq3Q1DKDXinLsLgbhHfSKxulPGEPY7xBqrLZw kv4NQ6g0l2ZMsmh6WQOz6j4i1pWcxoROjYimS-kaE8MzWUvX4qI_D-8l6OPHiCCotjE5SaOX3qx7KV2g86vA2QFPjqu4nh9rjxDE2aZN fag4LtqDC_rNkJAI3Z31Er4w7nq3DWx59via-HMWy?width=877&height=1024&cropmode=none

Lil'Gun is a shotgun powder designed for .410 loads, and as it happens I routinely shoot 245gr boolits from my Encore with 10.0gr of Lil'Gun for a velocity over 1300fps, with safe loads up above 13.5gr at normal seating depths. I'm not sure exactly where I want to put my first test load, but I would be very surprised if the pressure were as high with this capsule as it is for a properly-size boolit. This is clearly a doable thing, since T/C already did it years ago, it's just a question of whether it works very well!

If it turns out OK I'll massage the models just a bit and post them in the 3D printing area so other folks can juice up their 357s.

[Daekar]

OK, report from the first test. Success! Sort of...

So the 3D printed part performed as intended, as far as I could tell. It held the shot for cartridge assembly despite its fragility, and absolutely disintegrated upon firing - I couldn't find hide nor hair of it. It didn't even make a hole in the paper.

My suspicion that Lil'Gun (10.0gr) wouldn't reach normal pressures was correct. The report was "poofy" and there were plenty of unburned powder kernels in the barrel despite seating the capsule against the powder in the case. I think a faster powder is called for.

The shot pattern was typical for a rifled barrel, just twice as dense as you would expect at 15ft from the target. It spread about 2ft wide, with a nicely uniform distribution of pellets everywhere EXCEPT the point of aim in the middle. That's not to say there weren't any pellets there, but it sure wasn't many compared to the rest of the pattern.

From this, I think I'm comfortable drawing the conclusion that, if we make the assumption that a normal pistol shotshell in a rifled barrel would do the job for you, then the super-long capsule would only make things better. If the donut pattern is a dealbreaker for you, then I don't think this is the solution.

Makes me want to find a neglected 357mag barrel and drill out the rifling.

[truckjohn]

That's one heck of a crazy shot capsule! Wow! Cool that you got it to work.

Sounds like one heck of a snake cartridge... Now, all you need is a custom smooth bore barrel with an improved choke and you'll have the world's most awesome snake getter and small game blaster. ;)

You might be able to tighten the pattern a bit with a lower velocity... And vice versa.

[HWooldridge]

Conversations about snake loads have always fascinated me, especially since I grew up and lived in Central Texas my entire life, and have personally killed or seen someone else kill poisonous snakes with everything from a rock to a pair of cowboy boots to a baseball bat. Couple of years ago, my son and grandson found a good sized rattler right outside the door and the only thing I had handy was an old sawed-off hoe handle, which bashed in his head just fine. I've stomped at least two rattlesnakes to death while wearing rubber wading boots, simply because I had nothing else and wasn't going to let them get away.

I also don't have a snake phobia and won't kill anything that isn't poisonous, and I won't kill any snake that's out in the wild and minding his own business. Easy enough to just let him alone to go catch a rat.

Disregarding personal philosophy, I do make snake loads for several calibers but use very low charges of fast powder - usually 4.0 grs of WW231 or something similar in Clays. #9 shot seems to work the best for me, although I was given a few pounds of #12 - which I only use in .38 rounds. You only need enough 'oomph' to get the shot out of the barrel at some speed approaching a slingshot or arrow's velocity, which will kill most any snake in North America. If I was hunting pythons in Florida, I would pack a shotgun.

[besk]

TC's Hot Shots were intended for special TC barrels with the screw in choke.

[smkummer]

TC did it right by having an attachment at the end of the barrel that took the spin off from the 357 rifling. Those yellow shot cups were very long! I don’t think they could be fired in anything else. I have a registered H&R handy gun in 410 2 1/2”. Lots of fun with 1/2 oz. of shot!

[Daekar]

TC did it right by having an attachment at the end of the barrel that took the spin off from the 357 rifling. Those yellow shot cups were very long! I don’t think they could be fired in anything else. I have a registered H&R handy gun in 410 2 1/2”. Lots of fun with 1/2 oz. of shot!

If 444 Marlin brass weren't over a dollar a piece, I would seriously consider buying a single shot 410 and use some the recipes on this forum. My wife would be annoyed that her 20ga never got used to deal with pests anymore, but it would be a hoot!

[besk]

I make my 410 brass from British 303 previously fired brass.

[dverna]

Makes me want to find a neglected 357mag barrel and drill out the rifling.


That may get you into trouble with the BATF. It might come under the definition of a short barreled shotgun. If you go that way, a call to confirm it is legal is warranted.

[Markopolo]

I would suggest a some sort of fiber wad between the shot capsule and the powder. Might give you better pressure then a bloop.

[fastdadio]

I've been following this thread with some interest. Glad we don't have a rattler problem here in Mi. Seeing what the OP is trying to do, I see black powder as an answer, with several ways to approach it. Load the TC Encore with a primed case, and then load from the muzzle with about 30gr 3f, over powder card, then a paper patched load of shot, over shot card, and Bob's er uncle.

Years ago, I built a CVA .50 Kentucky pistol kit. Played with it a few years then had the rifling bored out to .54 smooth. Loaded with 28ga shot cups or just wads. 35grs fff was quite entertaining and I took a few grouse with it during our muzzle loading season. I eventually sold it off and replaced it with one of these boot guns that, similarly loaded, could also be some potent snake medicine.
https://oldarmsofidaho.com/product/cmc-44-caliber-boot-pistol-single-shot-percussion-black-powder/

Personally, if I had a snake problem around the house, I'd likely get a long bbl. 38spl Derringer and load it heavy with bp and fine shot as suggested above. They make holsters for them that would make it convenient to carry around while doing chores.
https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/723013598/cobra+firearms+derringer-+long+bore+38
https://www.etsy.com/market/cobra_derringer_holster
http://www.timelyaccessories.com/Cobra-Derringer-Holsters.html

[Daekar]

That may get you into trouble with the BATF. It might come under the definition of a short barreled shotgun. If you go that way, a call to confirm it is legal is warranted.

That's a really good point which someone else politely PM'd me about as well. I suspect that would Not be legal to intentionally remove the rifling, but if you happened to find a neglected barrel where the bore had been smoothed by corrosion, it might achieve much the same thing without "intent." Oh, NFA, you are soo, soooo stupid...

[Daekar]

I've been following this thread with some interest. Glad we don't have a rattler problem here in Mi. Seeing what the OP is trying to do, I see black powder as an answer, with several ways to approach it. Load the TC Encore with a primed case, and then load from the muzzle with about 30gr 3f, over powder card, then a paper patched load of shot, over shot card, and Bob's er uncle.

Years ago, I built a CVA .50 Kentucky pistol kit. Played with it a few years then had the rifling bored out to .54 smooth. Loaded with 28ga shot cups or just wads. 35grs fff was quite entertaining and I took a few grouse with it during our muzzle loading season. I eventually sold it off and replaced it with one of these boot guns that, similarly loaded, could also be some potent snake medicine.
https://oldarmsofidaho.com/product/cmc-44-caliber-boot-pistol-single-shot-percussion-black-powder/

Personally, if I had a snake problem around the house, I'd likely get a long bbl. 38spl Derringer and load it heavy with bp and fine shot as suggested above. They make holsters for them that would make it convenient to carry around while doing chores.
https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/723013598/cobra+firearms+derringer-+long+bore+38
https://www.etsy.com/market/cobra_derringer_holster
http://www.timelyaccessories.com/Cobra-Derringer-Holsters.html

Interestingly enough, the idea of muzzle loading the shot with appropriate wads and whatnot occurred to me almost immediately after a minor mishap in testing. I had just filled and capped the first capsule I made when I let it roll off my workbench in a moment of inattention and it snapped right in the middle. The single-layer print is plenty fragile enough to disintegrate upon firing, but it's also so long and thin that it just isn't up to much abuse. Since changing the diameter isn't an option, it seemed obvious to me that getting rid of the capsule entirely might be an option.

I haven't done any additional experimenting with that yet, part of me wants to figure out how to deal with the donut pattern first. If that happens, I am very interested in cartridge-powered smokeless muzzle loading shot...shell? Shot loads? Errr... Yeah....

[dverna]

That's a really good point which someone else politely PM'd me about as well. I suspect that would Not be legal to intentionally remove the rifling, but if you happened to find a neglected barrel where the bore had been smoothed by corrosion, it might achieve much the same thing without "intent." Oh, NFA, you are soo, soooo stupid...

Or a badly leaded barrel?

[fastdadio]

That's a really good point which someone else politely PM'd me about as well. I suspect that would Not be legal to intentionally remove the rifling, but if you happened to find a neglected barrel where the bore had been smoothed by corrosion, it might achieve much the same thing without "intent." Oh, NFA, you are soo, soooo stupid...

Yes, I read some where that a 48 hr. sulphuric/salt soaking is the best method to remove copper fouling from the bore of your cheap replacement barrel.....

[Daekar]

Ah, the temptation continues to escalate! Match Grade Machine got back to me and said that they would be happy to produce an unrifled 18"+ barrel with a 357mag chamber for my Encore. That, gents, is the best possible outcome! A baby shotgun barrel that works with the brass I already have and almost certainly would accommodate muzzle-loaded shot as well (with the right wads, etc).

Or is it the best outcome, really? If I'm playing Devil's advocate with myself, I'd have to point out that it would be way cheaper and probably more effective to buy an inexpensive 410 like the Rossi Tuffy and buy the 303 or 444 brass to use with it. If you figure the Encore barrel is going to cost $500 minimum (we didn't get to prices), that's a new Tuffy + $300 worth of brass and components.

Dammit, brain, why can't you just settle on a thing!? It's not like any of this is necessary anyway, we have a perfectly-serviceable 20ga at home.

Why am I broken, lol?

[dverna]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/927207877

Half the price of the Encore barrel. Cheap (or free) 20 ga hulls. Make up a light 3/4 oz load for snakes and have a couple of buckshot loads on board on a side saddle in case a coyote shows up.

[HWooldridge]

We had one of these for years: https://projectupland.com/shotguns-and-shooting/shotguns/harrington-and-richardson-topper-58-a-shotgun-overview/?msclkid=db49f600aeca11ec84404e0887accf92 My son used to toss it in his tool box - I think somebody stole it at a truck stop.

You could likely get a blank barrel rifled with little to no twist - say 1 turn in 120". Would also make a decent round ball shooter when you weren't shooting skeet...

[fastdadio]

And then there's that judge thing that chambers .410/45lc

[WRideout]

OK, report from the first test. Success!

Makes me want to find a neglected 357mag barrel and drill out the rifling.

Phil Sharpe's book has a whole section on shot loads for pistols. He also mentions smooth-bore revolvers, however, you might be skating against the edges of the law. If I recall correctly There was one manufacturer a few years ago who made a barrel (or threaded choke tube?) with straight grooves to make it "rifled" and legal.

Wayne

[farmbif]

somewhere on here is a very detailed thread unmaking 444 shot shells . no cause but using cardboard or thin foam if I remember right and it might have been a fast powder like bulls eye or red dot. if you get serious about making shot shells like this because you have a snake or pest problem it might be real worthwhile to invest in #11 or #12 shot.

[shaggybull]

I have a couple coffee cans full of trap mix lead shot, 7, 8 and 9's. If you can use, also have some bagged shot would have to check sizes.

[gunther]

A long time ago, E.P. Alexander carried an old fashioned single shot horse pistol, while his contemporaries carried revolvers. He was fond of grouse for supper when he could manage. He wrote a couple of books about his experiences, and his contemporaries, that are worth reading. Oh, and he commanded the largest artillery .barrage in North American history, too.

[Kosh75287]

I wonder if trimming a .38 Special case to a length between .38 Short Colt & .38 Long Colt to enable a longer "payload" section might help. A "buck & ball" combination with .360" pure lead ball ahead of all the #9 or #12 skeet shot that can be stacked in the column MIGHT get you there. I wonder if separating the propellant from the bottom of the shot column with a gas check (inverted?) then capping the shot column similarly might work better than a single .360" ball.
Just a thought.

[Charlie Horse]

Years ago, I built a CVA .50 Kentucky pistol kit. Played with it a few years then had the rifling bored out to .54 smooth.

How did you have the rifling bored out? I'm wondering if it could be done to a rifle-length barrel. If a muzzle-loader rifle could be converted to a shotgun.

[HWooldridge]

This is one of those "for what it's worth" comments...

I spent Sunday afternoon cleaning underbrush from around my stock tank, which is primarily fed by storm water so we get a lot of debris washed in. There were several old paper plates laying around so I hung one in a tree at eye level and paced off 20 steps before letting loose with a Speer shot capsule in my 44-40 revolver. At that distance, not one #9 pellet hit the plate - but the same pistol with this load destroys snakes at normal snake ranges of a few steps away.

A "normal" handgun just can't accomplish much with a shot load unless you are right on top of whatever you are trying to hit.

[fastdadio]

How did you have the rifling bored out? I'm wondering if it could be done to a rifle-length barrel. If a muzzle-loader rifle could be converted to a shotgun.

I didn't do the work. I worked in the auto factory for GM, and had the tool and die guys there do it for me. Not sure exactly what tooling they used, but they did a really nice job on it. I regret selling it now. I keep looking at Harpers Ferry replicas to replace it with.
Sadly, they're a bit out of my price range for a toy to fill that niche, and the fact that I already have a very unique .44 smooth bore double barrel with a folding stock that fills the bill nicely.
I see no reason why a gun smith/barrel maker couldn't bore a rifle out smooth. The question is how much, and is it worth it instead of just buying a shotgun? Maybe find a neglected rifle with a badly rusted bore for cheap?
The Harpers Ferry; available with a rock lock also. This boarding pistol really blows me skirt up.....
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/harper-s-ferry-conversion-pistol

My .44 smooth bore double barrel muzzle loader;
298559
298560

[truckjohn]

Sounds this is heading into the project creep death spiral. ;)

[Daekar]

Omg that boarding pistol is gorgeous! Why don't they make smokeless muzzle loaders that look like that?

54 cal would be plenty of space for shot...

[fastdadio]

Omg that boarding pistol is gorgeous! Why don't they make smokeless muzzle loaders that look like that?

54 cal would be plenty of space for shot...

Not sure why you want it in smokeless. It would cost more to produce. Black powder is safer, and will do anything you could want the pistol to do and more.
Embrace the smoke. Come to the dark side, we have cookies.
:drinks:

[beagle]

I once saw a Contender .44 Mag barrel at a gun show for sale. The barrel had been reamed and you could still see the rifling but it was very, very shallow.
I suspect not enough to affect the shot package.
Now, I don't know what the BATF ruling is on rifling depth but it is something to think about./beagle


That may get you into trouble with the BATF. It might come under the definition of a short barreled shotgun. If you go that way, a call to confirm it is legal is warranted.