Jeff Cooper 45 Auto Load

[44MAG#1]

It seems there is a lot of controversy over Coopers load. Here are the photos from an April 1977 Guns and Ammo from his Cooper on Handguns column.297786
297787

[Outpost75]

I can tell you from personal experience that Cooper's .45 ACP loads were frame crackers.

[ShooterAZ]

The 7.5 gr Unique load could possibly be a "frame cracker", but the H&G 68 load with 4.2 grains of Bullseye is a winner.

[DDriller]

6.5 grains Unique with the 215 grain bullet would be about right. Wonder if that was a typo.

[44MAG#1]

Anything is possible. But, that isn't the only publication I've seen that load.

[RKJ]

I shot that 7.5 grain load back in the day. It was a handful.

[Larry Gibson]

I believe, and had for many years, it is/was a typo printed in that column and in G&A's "Jeff Cooper on Handguns". I've many times read Cooper to say, and heard him say it once, the H&G #68 over 7.5 gr Unique was his suggested "social load" using a hard cast bullet. He also suggested any 200 gr hard cast bullet of 40 - 45 caliber at 1000 fps was about as good as it would get. I have never read what mould the "215" bullet actually was from. Perhaps someone knows?

For many years I've shot a lot of commercial hard cast (Greer and then Laser Cast) 200/205 gr cast SWC of facsimile to the H&G #68 over 7.5 gr of Unique in M1911/Combat Commanders with steel frames w/o any sign/hint of a cracked frame. I also use 18 lb recoil springs though. Velocities run 990 to 1050 fps.

Having pressure tested that load with Laser cast 200 gr SWCs and cast of Lee's 452-200-SWC I've found the pressures to run from 17,500 psi to 18,500 psi depending on the bullet weight and seating depth used. That is well under the SAAMI MAP of 21,000 psi for the 45 ACP.

My own 'social load" is the 200 gr Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dot over 7.5 gr Unique. Velocity runs 1025 +/- fps out of my 5" M1911. The pressure of that jacketed bullet load runs 18,700 psi. Again, well under the SAAMI MAP.

Note; Testing Hornady 220 gr Critical Duty and CorBon 230 gr +p loads gave psi's out of the same test barrel right under the top end or 45 ACP+P MAP of 23,000. I was told they were loaded to SAAMI +P pressure. Thus the pressures are basically correct [there will always be a test to test variation] for the 7.5 gr Unique loads.

While I have shot a lot of those (they really tumble jack rabbits....) it is not my normal practice load not the load I used for IPSC. That load is the 200 gr SWC or 230 TC over 5 gr of Bullseye.

[44MAG#1]

While I will agree the 215 grain could be a typo it may have not been a typo.
Seems like a lot of things are typos and/or wrong data or other complications nowadays.
Hensley and Gibbs made a #78 215 grain SWC mold at one time. Could it POSSIBLY have been at ONE time he liked the 215 SWC/7.5 gr Unique at one time and then due to circumstances switched to the H&G #68 later or vice versa?
Oh well it doesn't really matter now since we have a miriad of bullets and powders now to cobble something up regardless of what Cooper used.

[Kosh75287]

I don't KNOW that this is the bullet that Col. Cooper had in mind, but the SAECO #58 215 gr. SWC is a WONDERFUL projectile for non-target .45 ACP. I think Col. Cooper's load was supposed to clock at 950 f/s from a 5" barrel.
Using Missouri Bullets' polymer-coated 215s, I obtained that velocity with 6.9/Unique. Obviously, all firearms are somewhat different, and 215 gr. @ 950 f/s is a handful. I recommend a heavier-than-stock recoil spring for this load.

[Nick Adams]

I’ve loaded the H&G #34 230grn RN boolit extensively. A local guy has moulds for several H&G-pattern boolits, and he can crank them out coated for a few pennies extra.

Prior to all the Corvid-panic, we did a cash deal for 5K coated 230grn boolits. These run 100% in all my 45s - 1911s as well as my old S&W 3rd Gen DA/SA pistols.

I load mine over 4.8 - 5.0grns of Bullseye, which essentially duplicates the classic Mil-hardball load. Very accurate too.

Cooper was such a hardcore .45acp honcho, it’s a mystery to me why he went with the 215grn load over 4.2grns of Bullseye. That’s an extremely mild load out of a full-size gommit model 1911.

[44MAG#1]

"Cooper was such a hardcore .45acp honcho, it’s a mystery to me why he went with the 215grn load over 4.2grns of Bullseye. That’s an extremely mild load out of a full-size gommit model 1911."

That isn't what he said. Reread what he said for social work load.

[GBertolet]

I think if your frame would crack, it would be from the recoil, rather than the pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

I think if your frame would crack, it would be from the recoil, rather than the pressure.

It's caused by to high a slide velocity causing the slide to smack the frame quite hard. The solution is a stronger recoil spring and/or the plastic Delron "buffers".

[johniv]

I believe I have read where he did indeed mention the H&G #78 mound as his boolit of choice. I took his 7.5 Unique load to be used for carry, and not for general practice, hence the 4.2 gr.load of BE.

[GBertolet]

Larry, I did mean, recoil of the slide, hitting the frame. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Kosh75287]

I'd think the slide velocity could be moderated with a higher-rate hammer spring and an un(der)-rounded firing pin stop.
In the late 1980s, I tried a load of 7.2/Unique/200 gr. LSWC in a Mk IV Series '70 Government Model. It chronographed 1059 f/s and hit like a freight train, on jack rabbits and javelina. Mercifully, I never had to use the load on "two-legged" vermin, but I can guess the likely outcome.
More recently, I reprised this load with 7.1/BE-86/200 gr. LSWC-PC. I think the velocity was something like 1061 or 1073 f/s, with QUITE stellar accuracy, and darned fine penetration (BHN = 18). THIS time, I went with a higher-rate hammer spring, a flat firing pin stop, and a "shock-buff" on the recoil spring guide. It'll be my "under the deer blind" deer gun.
If I thought I could push the 215 gr. SAECO SWC over 1000 f/s without bending things, I'd sure try it.

[ddixie884]

I read that recipe many times by Cooper and I think he used 7.2gr with a 230gr rnl.......

[44MAG#1]

If I thought I could push the 215 gr. SAECO SWC over 1000 f/s without bending things, I'd sure try it.

With the much larger Meplat of the Saeco 058 215 grain bullet over most other 200 - 215 grain bullets I sure don't think one would have to get over 1000 fps with it for it to be effective.
There will be others make comments about the Meplat, from those that have few firearms and shoots very, very, very little to those have more firearms than the United States Army and shoots more than the whole United States military combined and owns thousand upon thousands of dollars of equipment give their opinion on my comment.

[Nick Adams]

"Cooper was such a hardcore .45acp honcho, it’s a mystery to me why he went with the 215grn load over 4.2grns of Bullseye. That’s an extremely mild load out of a full-size gommit model 1911."
That isn't what he said. Reread what he said for social work load.
Don’t need to.

The old coot said a lot of contradictory things over time, as well as offering up pontifications on non-gun topics well beyond his range of personal experience.

[44MAG#1]

Don’t need to.

The old coot said a lot of contradictory things over time, as well as offering up pontifications on non-gun topics well beyond his range of personal experience.

I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont.
As far as speaking about or on subjects we know little about, who doesn't do it. It is all around us at work, at home, at Church, at the range, or on shooting forums or anywhere people gather or are.
So he would be no different on that aspect of being human than you, me, our parents or any other person.

[Larry Gibson]

I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont...........

Agree 100%+

I have definitely learned many things I thought I had learned years ago really are not that way. Especially in this shooting game.......I am always learning.

[tejano]

I am a little late to the party because I had to search through several boxes to find a target I kept from the 80's when my body and eyes were much younger. The outdoor range where I used to shoot back then was pretty basic. Unless you were the only one on the pistol range, you were limited to shooting a 25 yards, standing or off the bench. One day I decided to try Cooper's 7.5 gr. Unique load for the first time. The pistol was a Colt Combat Government which the prior owner had adorned with a Millett target rear and red front sight. The bullet was a commercially purchased cast 185 gr. SWC. The first five shots off the bench were so good (for me anyway) that I knew I should have quit, but of course I didn't. Several times afterwards I shot the same load, but never as well.

297889

Sadly, that old Colt is long gone. Somewhere along the line I got the itch for something new and expensive so it became trade bait.

[Piedmont]

The only case head I ever blew was using Jeff's 230 grain Unique load. Got my face sprayed and a few pinpricks of blood, but no other damage. I've never pushed auto pistol loads since (this was about thirty years ago) and it taught me that Jeff was no expert in handloading. Later I read how he had someone else load up 200 rounds for "Baby", his .460 G&A magnum. So he had a wildcat rifle and couldn't or wouldn't even load his own ammo for it.

His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns!

[44MAG#1]

The only case head I ever blew was using Jeff's 230 grain Unique load. Got my face sprayed and a few pinpricks of blood, but no other damage. I've never pushed auto pistol loads since (this was about thirty years ago) and it taught me that Jeff was no expert in handloading. Later I read how he had someone else load up 200 rounds for "Baby", his .460 G&A magnum. So he had a wildcat rifle and couldn't or wouldn't even load his own ammo for it.

His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns!

What was Cooper's 230 grain bullet load with Unique?

[tejano]

His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns![/QUOTE]


I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important. I owned several J frame revolvers over the years and I never tried his Red Dot load.

[45_Colt]

I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important.

Interesting way to look at it. He does have a point.

45_Colt

[kerplode]

His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns!

I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important.

Honestly, I roll my eyes at most of what Cooper wrote/said. He was an arrogant blowhard.

I wouldn't shoot his loads either. It's all fun and games until some ridiculous load you've convinced yourself is OK because "my life is more important than my gun's life" blinds or maims you. It'd be doubly stupid if the time things decided to come apart was mid gunfight.

[tejano]

I found some of Cooper's writing style to be arrogant, but then he was a Stanford graduate and a former Marine officer. He had more than most to be arrogant about. In any event, I admired his unabashed conservative opinions. I bought his baby, the Steyr Scout rifle, shortly after it became available. I still have it.

[Nick Adams]

Honestly, I roll my eyes at most of what Cooper wrote/said. He was an arrogant blowhard.
I wouldn't shoot his loads either. It's all fun and games until some ridiculous load you've convinced yourself is OK because "my life is more important than my gun's life" blinds or maims you. It'd be doubly stupid if the time things decided to come apart was mid gunfight.
Old Col. Coot especially contradicted himself (typically without explaining why) in his statements in support of his Scout Rifle theory.

The “making weight” aspect is just one glaring instance. First, it was a “drop-dead” max weight of 6.4lbs. Then it became a max weight of 6.9lbs. The, still later, he was okay with a max weight of 7.7lbs.

Anything else was relegated to “pseudo-Scout” status.

Toward the end, he would still hold court and pontificate, at least when prompted by the resident sycophants, but occasionally could be found seated at a table snoring hard and drooling in his oatmeal.

Much of what he wrote, including his early books, is worth reading.

A lot of what he wrote later, isn’t.

[lotech]

Not a Jeff Cooper fan, but read a lot of his GUNS & AMMO material beginning in the early '60s. I wouldn't use any of his recommended data, though some of his loads may be safe. In an earlier post, someone mentioned using 5grs. of Bullseye with a 200 or 230 grain cast bullet. Good advice, and that's plenty for anything a .45 ACP would be used for.

[44MAG#1]

Pontificating seems to be flourishing in this thread too. We all do it. RIGHT?

[truckjohn]

With the giant amount of variation in chambers, shells, and barrels, it doesn't surprise me that a load he worked up in his gun wasn't safe in somebody else's. Especially with a military left-over with a fat chamber.

Run the same load in a gun with a tight target chamber and you're asking for trouble.

I have some Russian Government 7.62x54R national match target ammo that will blow primers and leave you pounding the bolt open when shot in a late model Finn M39... And that's nominally an official government load that was pressure tested.

The standards were different back in the '60's. Not everybody was responsible... Look at the stuff Elmer Keith and PO Ackley did... Those guys got young men all wound up to blow up guns.

[Char-Gar]

The Cooper load of 7.5/Uniq./200 SWC was not a misprint, for I read it several times back in the day in articles written by him. I tried it once in the mid60s in my 1911A1 Rem-Rand. On about the fifth round the firing pin stop fell out and the firing pin and spring came shooting out. I crawled around in the West Texas dirt and found all the parts, cleaned them and put the pistol back together. There was no damage done, but I did not shoot any more of those Cooper Loads.

Anyone that would present himself as "The Gunners Guru" is to much for me to swallow.

[Char-Gar]

Interesting way to look at it. He does have a point.

45_Colt

What happens if the round you really, really need is just after the one that kills the gun?

[Larry Gibson]

The Cooper load of 7.5/Uniq./200 SWC was not a misprint, for I read it several times back in the day in articles written by him. I tried it once in the mid60s in my 1911A1 Rem-Rand. On about the fifth round the firing pin stop fell out and the firing pin and spring came shooting out. I crawled around in the West Texas dirt and found all the parts, cleaned them and put the pistol back together. There was no damage done, but I did not shoot any more of those Cooper Loads.

Anyone that would present himself as "The Gunners Guru" is to much for me to swallow.

If the load was correct I'd say there was something wrong with your m1911 [probably a weak firing pin spring that didn't function properly under the increased slide velocity. It is correct firing pin spring tension that drives the firing pin back into the firing pin stop holding it in place as the hammer is pivoted off it during slide movement to the rear. If the spring is defective the firing pin most often fails to hold the stop in pace and it falls out with the firing pin then falling out also.

A defect of the handgun, not Cooper's load.

I have fired many, many, perhaps thousands of Cooper's 7.5 gr Unique under a 200 gr bullet (both jacketed and cast) over the years through numerous M1911s w/o a single mishap.

[M-Tecs]

The 1911 is a very old design and the older GI guns tend to be soft. That being said the 1911 platform is being used for 10MM Auto, 45 Super and 460 Rowland. As pointed out above it's the slide velocity that is the issue. That can be controlled by various methods.

[Larry Gibson]

Old Col. Coot especially contradicted himself (typically without explaining why) in his statements in support of his Scout Rifle theory.

The “making weight” aspect is just one glaring instance. First, it was a “drop-dead” max weight of 6.4lbs. Then it became a max weight of 6.9lbs. The, still later, he was okay with a max weight of 7.7lbs.

Anything else was relegated to “pseudo-Scout” status.

Toward the end, he would still hold court and pontificate, at least when prompted by the resident sycophants, but occasionally could be found seated at a table snoring hard and drooling in his oatmeal.

Much of what he wrote, including his early books, is worth reading.

A lot of what he wrote later, isn’t.

Theories, ideas and concepts most often evolve with changes, modification, additions and deletions often occurring. So, it was with the "scout rifle" concept. I was there back when Cooper first started writing about it. I was intrigued so i paid close attention over the years. I even began building and using my own "scout" rifles. Over numerous years Cooper discussed numerous concepts and changes.
He called for a scout rifle symposium to be held to set down the criteria for a scout rifle. I did not agree with all of the criteria and, based on later Cooper comments, I don't think he did either. My own disagreements were based on my own experience with scout rifles. I never agreed that the caliber must be 308W/7.62, that there should be a specific max weight or on the short barrel length. I also felt the Cing sling and integral bipod were more related to competition shooting instead of practical field shooting.

Cooper gave a lot to practical shooting, not only with handguns but rifles also. He did not develop all the techniques he espoused but he did recognize what worked and put them in print and at "court" for us sycophants to learn from. He should be remembered for that. All of the old time writers had, and still have, their fans and their detractors. That could be deemed to mean "good points and bad points". Doesn't mean most were not, at least, enjoyable to read and probably help lead us down the road to where we are in this shooting sport.

[Geraldo]

When all else fails, look up the data. My Lyman #46 (oldest I have) and #50 show max loads of 7.5gr of Unique for 200gr SWC, and 7.3gr for a 225gr. Old coot or not, it doesn't appear that he was off his rocker.

[truckjohn]

I was intrigued by what Cooper wrote about a scout rifle. As I hunted more, I appreciated his idea. It sounded a lot like a modern take on a lever action. A quick handling, light gun for the field, except still useful out past 200 yards. I can also appreciate where it fell off the rails and died.

The thing is - most hunting consists of a lot of gun carrying and very little shooting. Three rounds is either an exceptionally good hunt, or a very bad one. Also, most hunting "back east" is done pretty close up, with shots seldom seen past 100 yards. And it rains all winter. As a result, a super light, stainless steel rifle with a low power, long eye relief scope is perfect.

On the bench, that same rifle is a bruiser, and that whippy barrel means it gives up a lot on target accuracy.

Cartridge wise, I think his choice of 308 was a compromise as well. Unfortunately, there's nothing 30 caliber, common, and rimless between a 308 and a 7.62x39. I'd love to see something short and stubby, maybe around 223 length, based on a shortened 308, that shot a 160gr pointy hunting bullet around 30-30 velocities, but it doesn't exist. The 7.62x39 would be a lot better choice if not hampered by the roomy military chamber and 0.312" groove diameter.

Older 30-30 bolt actions do well reloaded with pointy bullets... But then there's the problem of no current production factory bolt action 30-30's or pointy nose factory loads...

At least with the 308, there's a wide selection of quality factory ammunition, as well as mil-surp if you can find it. So, I get it. Compromises had to be made to get the thing to market. To my eyes, the Steyr was expensive and ugly. That's what happens when you bring ideas into real life.

I settled on my own "optimum" for my take on a scout rifle. A CZ527 carbine length in 7.62x39 with a super light fixed 4x scope. Handloaded with a 160gr Sierra hunting bullet running right at 2,000 FPS. It's light and easy to haul around, and reliably shoots my load into 1 1/2" at 100 yards. If you prefer factory loads, Hornady and Fiocchi both do well. It has no issue taking deer reliably.

[Bent Ramrod]

In many ways, the Scout rifle concept was a practical, real-life update on the “all-around rifle” concept that had been a recurring chimera in the gun magazines a generation earlier.

This all-around rifle would come to shoulder and eye like a Purdey shotgun for those snapshots on “jumped” deer in the woods, but settle down in the sling or on the backpack for those 400-yard shots at bighorn sheep. It could be carried over mountains all day without fatigue and yet be good for X-ring target accuracy without the shots “walking” or the zero changing while a hundred sighting and record shots were fired. It would clobber a charging pachyderm or brown bear at powder-burn ranges, and be good for head shots on woodchucks way, way out there. It would shoot flat as a stretched string to any distance, but have minuscule recoil and blast so a boy or woman could shoot it with no problems.

No doubt, it would be eminently affordable when new, and with “honest wear,” appreciate 16-2/3rds percent a year on the collector’s market, too.

After a (long) while, people got tired of looking for this phantasm, and the main articles and questions in the “Ask The Experts” columns dwindled and vanished.

Cooper was after a “General Purpose” rifle, one that would do as many of the requirements listed adequately well. It would be primarily for hunting or military use by one person (the ”scout”), out hunting, sniping or intelligence gathering by himself, who might run into anything at any distance or level of movement. It would be effective on a live target up to several hundred pounds weight, or could disable a light vehicle, out to 400 yards or so. Ammunition would be available anywhere, off the shelf. Cooper’s military and hunting background influenced his settling on the ubiquitous .308, a cartridge that could be fired in a light rifle with a minimum of fatigue, and would be reasonably effective in the hands of a good shot. Loading should be quick and easy, from top or bottom.

Since it would be carried much and shot little, weight needed to be minimal, but any appurtenances that would assist in accurate shooting, without increasing the weight, were desirable; hence the Ching sling, the bipod, adjustable spacers and cheekrests. Ergonomics were all-important for offhand snapshots in surprise situations or emergencies, something Cooper took very seriously. Few others did, or do now, for that matter. Hence the low-powered, forward-mounted “Scout” telescopic sight. Magnification was adequate for distance shooting, and the image was right there if you had to raise the rifle quickly, shoot and hit.

Again, the whole package was designed to be as effective as possible, while covering all the requirements. It did no one thing superlatively well. The gun writers all seemed to be terminally unclear on the concept when they reviewed the commercial offerings. They set the rifle down on sandbags, and didn’t like the scope’s low power or position. Accuracy was humdrum; maybe a couple inches at 100 yards, tsk, tsk. (Even by then, factory guns frequently shot under a MOA, so this was “bad.”) It looked weird (a lot of really ergonomic stuff does). And so on. Meanwhile, Cooper was letting people taking courses at his range fire his models and the commercial offerings, and most were able to hit reasonable targets out to distance, and knock them down, and some could hit thrown clay pigeons with snapshots.

The concept failed to the extent that it wasn’t properly understood, and, of course, that few people only want one rifle that does most things acceptably well. We want safes full of specialty stuff, stuff that looks cool, and stuff to play with. Still, I think Cooper’s was an honest and laudable effort; something nobody else was even considering.

[Finster101]

Quote Originally Posted by tejano View Post
I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important."

"Interesting way to look at it. He does have a point.

45_Colt"



I can't agree with that at all. If you lack confidence that the gun you carry will not get the job done without having dangerously hot loads in it, then perhaps you need a different gun. What good is a locked up or blown-up gun if there is more than one bad guy or heaven forbid you miss. After all we are all crack shots aren't we, especially in a high stress situation.

[Char-Gar]

If the load was correct I'd say there was something wrong with your m1911 [probably a weak firing pin spring that didn't function properly under the increased slide velocity. It is correct firing pin spring tension that drives the firing pin back into the firing pin stop holding it in place as the hammer is pivoted off it during slide movement to the rear. If the spring is defective the firing pin most often fails to hold the stop in pace and it falls out with the firing pin then falling out also.

A defect of the handgun, not Cooper's load.

I have fired many, many, perhaps thousands of Cooper's 7.5 gr Unique under a 200 gr bullet (both jacketed and cast) over the years through numerous M1911s w/o a single mishap.

I don't doubt that was the problem. It was a stock USGI pistol that had the original WWII springs. The pistol had not been rebuilt.

That said, long ago I quite trying to push a round beyond it's established top pressure. I know that many do, but I don't. It took a hard lesson or two to curb my youthful enthusiasm for high pressure loads. "If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer". This is just a personal thing with me, others can do as they wish.

[TurnipEaterDown]

TruckJohn: Your cartridge "...rimless between a 308 and a 7.62x39. I'd love to see something short and stubby, maybe around 223 length" pretty well describes to Remington 30 AR. To me, it was a shame it met deaf ears when hitting the market.
From time to time I thought it would be very useful to have a Garand tanker rechambered to 35 Whelen, or an AR10 in 325 WSM (JD Jones used to do). While maybe not perfectly Scout (whatever it is in reality), I always thought these would be pretty broadly applicable for game size, type & range, and be well mated w/ a low-mid variable mounted out there a bit. (I have gravitated for many hunts to my 35 Whelen Improved bolt wearing a 1-4x variable.)

[Nick Adams]

Not a Jeff Cooper fan, but read a lot of his GUNS & AMMO material beginning in the early '60s. I wouldn't use any of his recommended data, though some of his loads may be safe. In an earlier post, someone mentioned using 5grs. of Bullseye with a 200 or 230 grain cast bullet. Good advice, and that's plenty for anything a .45 ACP would be used for.
That was me, using coated H&G-pattern 230grn HC boolits. 4.8 - 5.0grns of Bullseye pretty much duplicates a Mil ball load. I’ve even shot it in 3” 1911s (Defender size) with excellent results. In fact, 5.0grns isn’t even a max load.

That’s why Col. Cooter gets sideways glances from experienced .45acp reloaders for suggesting 7.5grns of Unique. [smilie=1:

You have to wonder how many 1911s eventually Kaboom-skied on a steady diet of that load. :shock:

[Larry Gibson]

That was me, using coated H&G-pattern 230grn HC boolits. 4.8 - 5.0grns of Bullseye pretty much duplicates a Mil ball load. I’ve even shot it in 3” 1911s (Defender size) with excellent results. In fact, 5.0grns isn’t even a max load.

That’s why Col. Cooter gets sideways glances from experienced .45acp reloaders for suggesting 7.5grns of Unique. [smilie=1:

You have to wonder how many 1911s eventually Kaboom-skied on a steady diet of that load. :shock:

Perhaps those "experienced .45acp reloaders" giving "sideways glances" actually had no factual idea. The fact is, in the 45 ACP cartridge, 5 gr of Bullseye under a 230 gr TC generates basically the pressure as 7.5 gr of Unique under a 200 gr SWC. The difference is about 150 fps so they "think" the pressure is higher. It is not.

[Texas by God]

I enjoyed reading Cooper more so than Keith, O'Connor, or Askins. His bloviations didnt reach the heights of those three in my opinion. I've used the Unique/200SWC load but I just like the Bullseye/230TC load better.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[txbirdman]

“I'd love to see something short and stubby, maybe around 223 length, based on a shortened 308, that shot a 160gr pointy hunting bullet around 30-30 velocities, but it doesn't exist. The 7.62x39 would be a lot better choice if not hampered by the roomy military chamber and 0.312" groove diameter. “

Savage is making such a rifle called the “Hog Hunter” I believe. It’s in 350 Legend.

[2stepTex]

I beg to differ! Mass can be weighed by using gravity: W = mg --> m = W/g,
where:
W = weight,
m = mass,
g = the acceleration of gravity.
That is to say that, if you measure mass on the moon, it will be different that if measured on earth. Newtonian mass is measured using one mass traveling at a known speed, colliding into another mass and measuring it final speed after collision and rebound. I know because I stayed awake during that lecture.

The second attachment submitted at this thread's initiation is too blurry to read, but it appears that Jeff Cooper is/was some type of law enforcement official, and NOT a physicist. Hence, his IQ was more geared towards staying alive while taking down bad guys and NOT contemplating kinematics and interior ballistics of firearms. So without additional (intelligible) information, it is difficult to determine his credibility based on a single article.

[frank505]

I have shot Col Coopers loads for years in 1911s. Never cracked a frame, even the “fragile “ aluminum frames. Larry Gibson ran pressure tests on the Cooper loads. Might want to look that up.
The scout rifle concept is for folks that hunt, not sit in a blind. As a general purpose rifle the scout rifle is a marvelous tool. Lightweight, which is important when hunting on foot for miles. Handy which is important for a snap shot and carrying.
I rather doubt you detractors of Col Cooper would say such idiotic things to his face. If you read his books, possibly you might learn some things that could help you.

[44MAG#1]

2stepTex

You have a PM

[tejano]

My Cooper books from many moons ago were lost in a move. I wish I still had them. In his prime the man was damn smart and insightful. Did he slip in his “golden years”? Probably. I know I have. And, no doubt, worse is yet to come if I live long enough.

[Larry Gibson]

Seems we're all headed in that direction eventually. Fortunately, I have my own "Janelle".........

I too was a lion once, and young......

[44MAG#1]

What can happen to the human mind is awful. Some keep a good strong mind till they get very old. Some start having problems early on and some later. We all have those observant people that always sit on the outskirts of every agony and point. I wonder if the pointers ever think that they may become the pointee someday?

[Abert Rim]

Interesting thread. I always got a kick out of Cooper, as he was a very colorful and descriptive writer. For example, his analysis of the .25 ACP: "This is a 1906 design which should never have happened. It is adapted to cheap, blow-back pocket pistols which are useful only as threats. Anyone shot with this cartridge is apt to become emotional and resort to violence."
And of the various old .32 Shorts: "These are the cartridges for the bureau-drawer specials with which badly trained children have accidents."
Keeping in mind that I was reading this as a 12-year-old in the "Outdoor Life Book of Shooting" in 1965, I tended to believe the colonel knew his stuff. And when he discussed the properly loaded .45, I could almost hear a choir of angels.
I've lost track of which load supposedly cracks frames, but do note the Lyman manual No. 51 shows a max of 7.3 grains of Unique pushing their 225-grain #452374 at 905 fps and a pressure of 16,500 C.U.P.
This does not seem to teeter on the edge of disaster.
As to blowhards, it is hard to beat Keith on gun fighting, much as I admire the man's life experience and willingness to push envelopes in the name of real progress.

[curioushooter]

I've found that Unique is great for 200 grain bullets and PowerPistol bests it for 230s. My current favored load for "social work" is 230 grain V-crown over 8 grains of Power Pistol. Still haven't loaded up cast boolits for this! This is a stout load but not crazy. Now you're all telling me Bullseye is THE powder for 200 grain SWCs? See if I can find some! I was going to try tightgroup. Anyone have any experience?

"I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont.
As far as speaking about or on subjects we know little about, who doesn't do it. It is all around us at work, at home, at Church, at the range, or on shooting forums or anywhere people gather or are.
So he would be no different on that aspect of being human than you, me, our parents or any other person. "

I've only got 38 years of living but I recognize this as indeed a wise observation. To be fair to Cooper he did change his mind about things and generally had reasons for it. For example, he originally thought the ideal "fighting handgun" was a 1873 Colt, or at least he claimed he thought this. Like Keith he favored large diameters, but so does physics. Keith preferred revolvers and Cooper auto-pistols. The more I go I tend to agree with Keith. It's not that I don't understand their arguments, and things like capacity are just simple numbers that are easily compared 15 > 8 > 6 for example. But there are little things that Keith was really right about. He said in Sixguns that pistols tend to "hop around" in your hand when you try to shoot them rapidly. This is an unwelcome sensation for me and one I was sort of unfamiliar with until I got a 1911. I learned something here, and really knew little about large bore auto pistols before this.

The key is willingness to learn and seek the truth, which is much bigger than any person. To me the scientific process of discovery, though limited in what it can tell us, is very useful. Thankfully things in gun-world can generally be subjected to the scientific process.

[ddixie884]

I have shot Col Coopers loads for years in 1911s. Never cracked a frame, even the “fragile “ aluminum frames. Larry Gibson ran pressure tests on the Cooper loads. Might want to look that up.
The scout rifle concept is for folks that hunt, not sit in a blind. As a general purpose rifle the scout rifle is a marvelous tool. Lightweight, which is important when hunting on foot for miles. Handy which is important for a snap shot and carrying.
I rather doubt you detractors of Col Cooper would say such idiotic things to his face. If you read his books, possibly you might learn some things that could help you.

+1.....................

[Alferd Packer]

Ah Jeff Cooper
If only he was still around
to answer for his pronouncements
Many of which are maybe misquoted
and are being loaded and shot in firearms over a 100 years old.
As well ask John Browning who designed the almost perfect round, caliber and firearm many moons ago.
J.Cooper is just another fan of the 1911 like many others.
It's not a manstopper, but it comes close and has given many a handgunner confidence in close encounters of the first kind.
Enough for me, with discretion, of course.

Also, remember that old saw
That every firearm is a law unto itself.

[MT Gianni]

I've found that Unique is great for 200 grain bullets and PowerPistol bests it for 230s. My current favored load for "social work" is 230 grain V-crown over 8 grains of Power Pistol. Still haven't loaded up cast boolits for this! This is a stout load but not crazy. Now you're all telling me Bullseye is THE powder for 200 grain SWCs? See if I can find some! I was going to try tightgroup. Anyone have any experience?

"I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont.
As far as speaking about or on subjects we know little about, who doesn't do it. It is all around us at work, at home, at Church, at the range, or on shooting forums or anywhere people gather or are.
So he would be no different on that aspect of being human than you, me, our parents or any other person. "

I've only got 38 years of living but I recognize this as indeed a wise observation. To be fair to Cooper he did change his mind about things and generally had reasons for it. For example, he originally thought the ideal "fighting handgun" was a 1873 Colt, or at least he claimed he thought this. Like Keith he favored large diameters, but so does physics. Keith preferred revolvers and Cooper auto-pistols. The more I go I tend to agree with Keith. It's not that I don't understand their arguments, and things like capacity are just simple numbers that are easily compared 15 > 8 > 6 for example. But there are little things that Keith was really right about. He said in Sixguns that pistols tend to "hop around" in your hand when you try to shoot them rapidly. This is an unwelcome sensation for me and one I was sort of unfamiliar with until I got a 1911. I learned something here, and really knew little about large bore auto pistols before this.

The key is willingness to learn and seek the truth, which is much bigger than any person. To me the scientific process of discovery, though limited in what it can tell us, is very useful. Thankfully things in gun-world can generally be subjected to the scientific process.

If your looking at powders, look up what Ramshot Silhuette does in the 45 ACP. IIRC it was 1050 fps with a 200 gr bullet and not a + P load.

[siamese4570]

I also read all of Col. Coopers articles in G&A back in the day. The one thing that I remember is he was recommending a 230 gr truncated cone shaped boolit foe the 45 acp.
Siamese4570

[ddixie884]

Perhaps those "experienced .45acp reloaders" giving "sideways glances" actually had no factual idea. The fact is, in the 45 ACP cartridge, 5 gr of Bullseye under a 230 gr TC generates basically the pressure as 7.5 gr of Unique under a 200 gr SWC. The difference is about 150 fps so they "think" the pressure is higher. It is not.

True that.

[50target]

I have been a lover of firearms and all things connected since I was 15, now 76. Not quite the opinionated know all I was when younger. Life teaches and in those years I've picked up a couple of things that's helped me navigate life and interactions with my fellow man. And I have gotten them from others..authors forgotten.
"I don't believe all the things I once believe, therefore it would be foolish for all men to agree with me."

Who is a wise person? One who can learn from everyone.

Who is a strong man? One who can control himself.

Who iss a wealthy man? One who is happy with his portion.

Keith, Skelton, Cooper and all before and after brought something to the table. Maybe it wasn't our dish but they delivered it mostly at their expense of time and effort which the majority of us, and certainly not me, have duplicated. I appreciate it as it gives me new information to consider and possibly explore. For us handloaders I think that is invaluable because it feeds so much of what makes us different than the guy that buys "factory store bought".
Thanks to all of you on this forum for your contribution of knowledge and experience. Helps to make me a better and safer "gun guy".

[Abert Rim]

Nicely said, Mr. 50target.

[Shiloh]

Way to hot.
One of the other hot loads is 6 gr. of Bullseye under a 200 gr SWC. 6.5+ gr. of Unique. Both are too hot.
4.4 gr. of Bullseye is plenty.
Shiloh

[frank505]

Plenty for what? Have you read Larry Gibsons pressure data on the 45 auto and Col Coopers loads?

[44MAG#1]

Plenty for what? Have you read Larry Gibsons pressure data on the 45 auto and Col Coopers loads?

One must remember that there are those that are sensitive to recoil etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
My buddy who was a Master Class NRA Bullseye shooter used 4 grains of Bullseye with a H&G 68.
Plenty is a relative term.
Keep that in mind.

[frank505]

Col cooper’s 45 loads are not designed for putting holes in paper.

[scattershot]

The 7.5 gr Unique load could possibly be a "frame cracker", but the H&G 68 load with 4.2 grains of Bullseye is a winner.


Most accurate load I have shot in a 1911.

[44MAG#1]

Col cooper’s 45 loads are not designed for putting holes in paper.

That would be obvious. To those who are familiar with Cooper.

[curioushooter]

Has anyone every used Tightgroup instead of Bullseye in 45ACP?

200 grain LSWC 5.4 grains 957 FPS 16,800 CUP

230 grain LRN 4.8 grains 855 FPS 17,000 CUP

Being a pretty fast powder it seems to favor the lighter 200 grain bullet, like bullseye.

These aren't +P loads either which is certainly 7.5 grains of Unique in a 200-230 grain bullet according to Alliant.

In my limited experience (38SPL/357MAG) Tightgroup is cleaner than even the NEW, CLEANER BURNING unique. The most accurate handgun load I ever devised was 3.2 grains of Tightgrop and 148 grain Lee TumbleLube wadcutter in 38 SPL.

[Nick Adams]

Col cooper’s 45 loads are not designed for putting holes in paper.
Which is hard to do anyway with over-pressured handloads likely to crack frames, bust brass, and shorten spring life. :roll:

[frank505]

Mr Adams
Have you looked at Larry Gibsons pressure data on the 45 ACP? I suggest you do, instead of reiterating useless comments

[Jungle Dave]

6.4 grs Unique is my load. Matches the military ball. Lee even has the yellow dipper for it if you reload slow like I do. There is no way I'd ever go with 7.5 grns....EVER

[txbirdman]

I’ve been working on loads for my Combat Commander lately using 230/240 gr bullets. Tried the RCBS 230-CM bullet (actual weight 228 gr) using 7.0gr of Unique and got 987 fps (too hot for me). I settled on 6.2 gr of Unique at 884 fps. Also loaded the Lee 230 TC (actual weight 240 gr with my alloy) with 5.7 gr of Unique @ 850 fps. Even though I’m using a shock buffer I believe this is about the upper limit for me.

[Larry Gibson]

Cooper's defense load was 7.5 gr of Unique under a 200 gr SWC, not under a 230 - 240 gr bullet.

Under the 200 gr cast SWC it is a very good load for use in M1911 45 ACPs. Not for general practice and plinking but for SD and hunting.

[44MAG#1]

Are we sure it was a 200 grain SWC and not a 215 grain SWC?
Absolutely a 200 grain with no possibility a 215 grain such as the H&G #78?
I have read the 215 grain weight in other articles.. Maybe they were wrong

[ddixie884]

I believe you are right. I think it was a 215. I think either one will work. I think his 230gr cast load was 7.2, but it has been more than a week ago so I could be wrong. I was loading 7.0 with a 452374 and I went to a match. They had a pendulum set up and a guy asked me what load it was, I told him and he said it wouldn't pass. I told him to shoot it. No problem. He said he guessed it would be alright but I needed to use more next time. I just smiled and went on.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, Cooper's personal choice (as stated in Jeff Cooper on Handguns) was the 215 gr SWC. However, that bullet was not readily available to the public and it did not feed well in unaltered commercial M1911s. Thus, in his magazine writings he recommended the 200 - 205 gr H&G 68 over the same 7.5 gr of Unique for 1000+ fps out of a 5" M1911.

He also was adamant that a .40 cal SWC or larger bullet of 200 gr at 1000 fps +/- would be the quite adequate considering power and controllability in a handgun. Thats what we saw with his origianl 10mm cartridge and the midrange .41 Magnum cartridge. It's also what the .40 S&W has evolved into.

When the Hornady 230 gr TC bullet came out he recommended that bullet but I'm not sure with what charge of what powder(?).

Cooper's recommendations often changed as newer developments came. If he were alive today I'm quite sure he would recommend the current reliable expanding HPs. He might not even look so askance at the 9mm......

[Nick Adams]

6.4 grs Unique is my load. Matches the military ball.
4.9-5.0grns of Bullseye duplicates the 230grn Mil hard-ball ammo.

No need to push that bullet any faster unless you're a risk-taker.

[RJM52]

...frame cracking...risk taking...brass bursting...with a .45 ACP...really?

If a 1911 platform can be made to run with 10mm, 9x23 Winchester, .45 Super, .40 Super, etc. and we hear nothing from especially the 10mm shooters about cracked frames the problem doesn't exist...

Will it happen once in a while...sure...but with the millions of guns and shooters out there if there was a major issue there would be hundreds of posts on the 1911 forums about it...

Bob

[ddixie884]

So true.

[justindad]

When I do something stupid and hurt myself, I usually don’t tell anybody.

[COUSIN DANIEL]

Which is hard to do anyway with over-pressured handloads likely to crack frames, bust brass, and shorten spring life. :roll:

Larry has certainly beat this horse to death and proven the load is not over pressured nor is it a +p rating.

I have personally loaded and fired from a distance of 7,15,25,50, and 100 yards with great accuracy.

I fired them from a springfield 1911 and tisas 1911service special each with 18.5 pound recoil springs.

It's like people's wrong opinions keep getting repeated in order to drown out the facts..... you can change that

[kopcicle]

Cooper's recommendations often changed as newer developments came. If he were alive today I'm quite sure he would recommend the current reliable expanding HPs. He might not even look so askance at the 9mm......

Really? Do you remember his name for the Browning P35? The Browning Half Power...

[frank505]

Please don’t let facts get in the way of of ignorance on display.
Thank you Larry Gibson for the pressure data again…….
I fail to understand the backstabbing of Colonel Cooper. Jealousy perhaps? He started the technique of the modern pistol and his teachings are still relevant. I suppose it’s the nature of the Internet to act out in ignorance and to be an expert in your own mind. Have any of you detractors of Col Cooper read his books???? And then applied these principles to law enforcement or general life?

[Larry Gibson]

Jeff Cooper was always learning, open to new methods/techniques that worked and new products that also worked. Again, I would bet that were he alive today he would have a different outlook on HP bullet performance.....even in the 9mm.

[lightload]

On other forums some have called Cooper a racist and have criticized his social theory comments. Others seem not to understand that Cooper based his criticism on the 9mm's failure with fmj ammo and jhp ammo that performed poorly. Cooper was a learned person and well read historian who was born over 100 years ago. Certainly his world view does not align with the current one--whatever that is. He had a following and wrote articles and books directed to them.

[TD1886]

Jeff Cooper was always learning, open to new methods/techniques that worked and new products that also worked. Again, I would bet that were he alive today he would have a different outlook on HP bullet performance.....even in the 9mm.

That's only an assumption Larry. I feel the reason the 9mm is so popular is that it's small enough to hold a large capacity magazine for spray n pray, the gun is generally smaller, the ammo is cheaper, and the recoil is mild enough for all the wokie's in police department and military. Military rifle calibers have gotten smaller, along with the military handgun. We're just about back to where military center fire calibers started at. I'm really shock that none of the major powers haven't tried the 6mm's and the 6.5's again. Cooper and Stoner were the last of the real soldier he-men. They both liked the full power 30 caliber and large bore handguns. So I can't really see Cooper saying anything good about the plastic Glocks and so many other plastic guns.

[kopcicle]

I'm not going to go full on fudd here.
However, I will state that 9mm may not expand and 45 never gets smaller.
Add to this that .40 is only marginally larger in a double stack magazine but a significantly different recoil impulse than either 9mm or 45 and you have a mess to unravel.

Granted 9mm has come a long way in projectile as well as delivery method.
Call me a dinosaur but I tend to lump .40 in with .41AE and wonder why. I still wouldn't want to get hit with one. I also have trouble getting consistent hits especially with compact pistols where I don't have this issue in 9mm or 45.

As much as 9mm has progressed so has 45.

Jeff Cooper was a dichotomy of staid pragmatism and progressive insight.
I would find it odd if he indeed did not take notice of advances in 9mm terminal ballistics.
However if you spoke with him even once you know he had a unique ability to laugh at himself.
If he were to call the Browning a "Half-Power" today I'm sure you would see the characteristic uptick in the corner of the eye and maybe even the wry smile he was well known for.

We are fortunate to have had Colonel Jeff Cooper's experience and voice available for decades.
There are few like him now and were few like him then.

[TD1886]

I'm not going to go full on fudd here.
However, I will state that 9mm may not expand and 45 never gets smaller.
Add to this that .40 is only marginally larger in a double stack magazine but a significantly different recoil impulse than either 9mm or 45 and you have a mess to unravel.

Granted 9mm has come a long way in projectile as well as delivery method.
Call me a dinosaur but I tend to lump .40 in with .41AE and wonder why. I still wouldn't want to get hit with one. I also have trouble getting consistent hits especially with compact pistols where I don't have this issue in 9mm or 45.

As much as 9mm has progressed so has 45.

Jeff Cooper was a dichotomy of staid pragmatism and progressive insight.
I would find it odd if he indeed did not take notice of advances in 9mm terminal ballistics.
However if you spoke with him even once you know he had a unique ability to laugh at himself.
If he were to call the Browning a "Half-Power" today I'm sure you would see the characteristic uptick in the corner of the eye and maybe even the wry smile he was well known for.

We are fortunate to have had Colonel Jeff Cooper's experience and voice available for decades.
There are few like him now and were few like him then.

I like many decades ago when he had a handgun questions and answers column in a popular gun rag and someone wrote in and asked him what would be a better defense round, a 22 mag hollowpoint or a 38 Special roundnose. Cooper said if he answers it the way he wants that he would get a lot of hate mail. So he asked himself a question. Which would he rather be shot with, a 22 mag hollowpoint or a 38 Special roundnose. He said the 38 Special roundnose.

[alamogunr]

I've been a fan of Jeff Cooper since I acquired his little 75¢ book on sports cars. I was below driving age then and I'm 80 now. I've enjoyed all 5 pages of this thread and have managed it without any nasty feelings about some of the comments.

I've been a fan of the 1911 in .45ACP for about half my life and the fact that Col. Cooper recommended it only reinforced my opinion of him and the gun/cartridge.

[ddixie884]

I know you’re right.

[Larry Gibson]

That's only an assumption Larry. I feel the reason the 9mm is so popular is that it's small enough to hold a large capacity magazine for spray n pray, the gun is generally smaller, the ammo is cheaper, and the recoil is mild enough for all the wokie's in police department and military. Military rifle calibers have gotten smaller, along with the military handgun. We're just about back to where military center fire calibers started at. I'm really shock that none of the major powers haven't tried the 6mm's and the 6.5's again. Cooper and Stoner were the last of the real soldier he-men. They both liked the full power 30 caliber and large bore handguns. So I can't really see Cooper saying anything good about the plastic Glocks and so many other plastic guns.

My "assumption" was centered on the performance capabilities of JHP pistol bullets today vs in Coopers day and as to what his opinion may have been on them today. It was not presumptive at all regarding the 9mm in FMJ form nor its military use.

[TD1886]

My "assumption" was centered on the performance capabilities of JHP pistol bullets today vs in Coopers day and as to what his opinion may have been on them today. It was not presumptive at all regarding the 9mm in FMJ form nor its military use.

I figured that Larry. The 45acp has made just as many bullet advancements as any other cartridge today. You read the accuracy of those guns, both rifles and handguns (mostly the rifles though) it wasn't so good. That's because the bullets weren't so good. We own many of those firearms today and with modern ammo they are pretty darn good.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, with good bullets the older "obsolete" (many really aren't) guns shoot, indeed, pretty darn good.

I own five 45 ACPs (had 6 but gave one to a SIL) and only one 9mm if that says anything.

[TD1886]

Yes, with good bullets the older "obsolete" (many really aren't) guns shoot, indeed, pretty darn good.

I own five 45 ACPs (had 6 but gave one to a SIL) and only one 9mm if that says anything.

Most my 1911's are 45acp, got one in 9mm and one in 38 Super. I also have one in 10mm and 38/45. I have a Belgium Browning HP and they are indeed a fine pistol. Too bad Browning didn't scale it up for the 45acp. I also have 9mm Glock and Luger P08.

[Larry Gibson]

My 9mm is a CZ 75. Guess who said it was the best of the 9mms? I agree and really haven't seen any newer "wonder nine" that is any better for me.

[TD1886]

My 9mm is a CZ 75. Guess who said it was the best of the 9mms? I agree and really haven't seen any newer "wonder nine" that is any better for me.

Ahhhh, the same guy that modeled the Bren Ten after one!!!