Water quenching/ what an I doing wrong?

[Rickf1985]

I have tried quenching before with zero results but at that time the alloy was unknown so it was to be expected. Today I tried it with known wheel weights. I am the one that smelted the weights so I know what I have. Casting temp was 700 for one batch and 750 for the ones in the aluminum mold. Water was right out of the ground cold. Bullets were dropped from the mold directly into the water and they did hiss when they hit. BHN air cooled is 13 BHN and water quenched is........................... 13 BHN. So where in this process did I go wrong? I am tempted to pour some molten lead into the water and then test the stuff that results to see what that reads! I seriously doubt I need to cast any hotter. Let me rephrase that, I am NOT going to cast any hotter since I am already waiting on the mold to solidify before I can even open it.

[Tim357]

Probably need to be sure there is a trace of arsenic in your alloy

[megasupermagnum]

I've never heard of this issue. If you aren't already aware, it takes a day to see any real hardening. I'd have to double check, but it takes a month to start leveling off at full hardness.

[fecmech]

Test them tomorrow and again in a week. If you checked the right after the quench they are still soft, that's why you want to size the same day as casting. Much easier on your sizer!

[Dusty Bannister]

Low antimony alloys respond slower to the quench. Post #3 and #4 are on the point. Expect the hardness to be all over the map because the time between pouring and quenching might be a factor in the alloy temp when it hits the water. This is why Oven HT/Q is preferred by some that want a consistent batch hardness. If you go to the LASC site, you will find additional information on the subject.

[Winger Ed.]

If the alloy is right for it to harden/temper- it'll take a couple of weeks before the hardness 'settles down'.

You might want to size them before that also.
You can do it any time, but its easier before the final hardness sets.

[243winxb]

Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?

Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has 2% or more antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size using RCBS 2 Lube. WASH OFF. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for 1 hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a Lyman (450) sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them, OR Tumble lube with Alox. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. BULLETS WILL TAKE 2 WEEKS TO FULLY HARDEN. These are now ready for loading.

The RCBS 2 lube needs to be washed off after sizing, before bullets go in the oven. Warm water & 2 drops Dawn work well.

[megasupermagnum]

Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has 2% or more antimony present.
Not true

To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size using RCBS 2 Lube. WASH OFF.

I'm not sure what is special about RCBS, and you definitely do not need to lube if oven heat treating. Washing off is pointless, unless you lubed them for some reason.

Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets.

There's a lot more finesse to it than this. The chances this working as described with a cheap toaster oven without mods is pretty slim.

Leave these in the oven for 1 hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a Lyman sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them, OR Tumble lube with Alox.

You do not need a die .001" bigger.

This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate.

If you pre-sized bullets, sizing again in the same die will not work soften them. Even if you did not size them, any sizing now would be temporary. Even if you did not size, waited months, then sized, the hardness is unaffected, and any minor surface variations is up for debate.

BULLETS WILL TAKE 2 WEEKS TO FULLY HARDEN. These are now ready for loading.

Probably true in this example. It is not necessarily true for water quenched from mold, and not true for air cooled bullets.




...

[rbuck351]

Are you using clip on or stick on weights?

[megasupermagnum]

Are you using clip on or stick on weights?

While a valid question, he does say they are 13 BHN.

[mehavey]

BHN air cooled is 13 BHN and water quenched is......13 BHN.
OOC#1: How are you determining BHN ?
OOC#2: Why do you think you need anything harder/for what purpose/what pressure?

[NuJudge]

Not every Lead compound will respond to quenching. Most scrap Lead will have a little bit of a lot of things. I want at least a little bit of Tin and Antimony. When present in Lead, as the Lead freezes, a bunch of things happen. When you have almost any alloying element in the Lead, freezing of the Lead does not happen in a smooth front, but instead you will have tree-like structures ("dendrites") growing into the still liquid areas. The solid Lead is more dense than the liquid, and liquid will flow into areas where freezing is happening. The dendrites grow thick enough to restrict flow of liquid, and when flow is restricted enough you end up with voids. Tin inhibits dendrite formation, resulting in less voids, but it will do two more things: it is a substitutional alloying element, and it forms compounds with the Lead and Antimony, and I believe also with Lead and Arsenic.

Metals have an atomic structure. Much of a element's properties are determined by its atomic structure. Lead is Face centered cubic, and metals with such structures are always ductile. If you want to make it harder, you need to introduce something to reduce ductility, you need to do things that stress the structure. Lead-Tin-Antimony alloy's structure is stressed principally two ways: by Tin atoms substituting for Lead atoms, and by Lead-Tin_Antimony forming small islands of a compound which inhibit deformation. Tin atoms have a diameter which is close to that of a Lead atom, but not quite the same, so when substituted into the Lead crystal lattice, the lattice is stressed, and deformation is more difficult. The small islands of Lead-Tin-Antimony, or -Arsenic, also inhibit deformation. Island or particle sizing is critical, and really small gives the best inhibition of deformation. If you keep Lead hot, the really small islands will coalesce, resulting in larger islands, which give less deformation resistance. The way you get hard Lead-Tin-Antimony or -Arsenic is to quench it quickly, resulting in really small islands.

Tin substituting into the Lead lattice seems to not produce much hardening, and it produces little hardening at a high cost for Tin, so few people will add more than a little Tin. If you have insufficient Antimony, you get no little islands, so quenching produces no effect.

[243winxb]

Water drop harding alloy needs 2% antimony. Grain-boundary strengthening or Hall-Petch strengthening makes the bullet harder. The more antimony the faster the bullet will reach it full hardness level. Smelting produces many different metals. Swaged or cast, dont matter, heat treating/water drop still works if antimony is in the alloy. Its a proven fact oven treating gives more balanced harding from bullet to bullet, then just droping from the mould. Large amounts of tin is not needed or wanted in water dropping. For air cooled 2% tin is needed for velocity over 900fps. Why > Lyman>
Quote:
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

The alloys with 2 and 4% Sb harden comparatively slowly, and the alloy containing 6% Sb appears to undergo optimum hardening.


More- https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html

[gwpercle]

I have tried quenching before with zero results but at that time the alloy was unknown so it was to be expected. Today I tried it with known wheel weights. I am the one that smelted the weights so I know what I have. Casting temp was 700 for one batch and 750 for the ones in the aluminum mold. Water was right out of the ground cold. Bullets were dropped from the mold directly into the water and they did hiss when they hit. BHN air cooled is 13 BHN and water quenched is........................... 13 BHN. So where in this process did I go wrong? I am tempted to pour some molten lead into the water and then test the stuff that results to see what that reads! I seriously doubt I need to cast any hotter. Let me rephrase that, I am NOT going to cast any hotter since I am already waiting on the mold to solidify before I can even open it.

If you want them harder you will have to size then Heat Treat them in an Oven and Cold Quench .

Dropping from a mould into water does little or nothing to change the hardness as compared to air cooled , two week old boolits .

You will hear how great water dropped boolits are but do some testing and see what works . I have done hands on testing and I don't water drop . Air cooled and aged work just fine .
Need a harder boolit go with a harder alloy like linotype metal .
For harder boolits you can Heat Treat them , see post #8 and search the term :
" Heat Treating Cast Bullets " properly heat treating a sized boolit will increase the hardness some ... but how much depends on the alloy .

Let me also add ...hardness is way over rated ... Fit trumps hardness seven ways to Sunday .
One of the best boolit alloys is soft lead / COWW in a 50-50 mix , air cooled !
Gary

[243winxb]

I test different methods to see if it works. I suggest that everyone do there own testing.

I use the easy way to good cast bullets. Simply add linotype to harden & increase bullet diameter & air cool. But it does raise the cost.

[mehavey]

Let me also add ...hardness is way over rated ... Fit trumps hardness seven ways to Sunday .
One of the best boolit alloys is soft lead / COWW in a 50-50 mix , air cooled !
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ THIS ! ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
(absolutely This.....)
See Post#11 (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?440234-Water-quenching-what-an-I-doing-wrong&p=5374346&viewfull=1#post5374346) questions again

See Post

[MUSTANG]

I suspect your alloy. 20 years ago with the condemnation of all things lead by California we saw all sorts of "New Alloys" creeping into the Wheel Weight Market; including the largely maligned and decried Zink Wheel Weight in the Casting Community. I am almost done shooting up the almost 2000 lbs of "Good Wheel Weights" my wife bought for me at a Tire shop back in the Late 1980's (She bought them cheap and I had to go and pick them upload them in the Truck, and smelt them myself - she felt the had done her wifely duty).

Over the last few years I have settled on the Isotope Containers as my source of lead. I have made a few purchases from Hammer Lane on this site and have been pleased. Since I received the same type of Isotope Container each time; my alloy is "Consistent"; or as consistent as one can get buying and reusing some product not tailored specifically to boolit making. My alloy from this source is 96% lead, 3% Antimony, and 1 % Tin.

Despite the experiences of several on this thread; I have had SUCCESS with hardening with this known alloy by directly dropping into a 5 gallon bucket of water immediately after casting/cutting screw and opening to drop from about 2 - 3 feet into the water. If I cast a boolit and let it Air Harden - I get about 9 BHN as measured using a Lee Hardness Tester. If I water quench and test after two weeks or so; I get a BHN of about 22 to 22.7 BHN hardness as tested using a Lee Hardness Tester. If I am using traditional lube - I lube the boolits "Water Quenched" the same day or next day.

I use the Isotope Lead for Cast Rifle Boolits. The last of the Wheel Weight Lead has been used in casting Pistol Boolits.

[Fulmaduro]

There is a really great informative video on YouTube titled "Does Cast Bullet Hardness Change Over 1 Year" by TATV Canada. Not linked to here as I don't like clicking on links myself, so just look them up. If you cast bullets, new or old, this is still worth watching.

[Rickf1985]

OOC#1: How are you determining BHN ?
OOC#2: Why do you think you need anything harder/for what purpose/what pressure?

To answer your questions on what I was using see these two threads. Go to the last few posts of the first thread for the pics. And second thread for pics of the rest of them. This was ALL, 100% lead, no zinc at all. It was old stuff from a reloaders estate. As far as how I tested I used a Lee hardness tester. I hear the comments already.:D But I tested several samples before and after so the results are consistent.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?436332-Price-to-pay-for-WW-and-Linotype/page2
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?436863-Todays-haul

[Rickf1985]

OOC#1: How are you determining BHN ?
OOC#2: Why do you think you need anything harder/for what purpose/what pressure?

And to answer your question #2 I plan on shooting these from an 03A3 in 3006 at between 1800-2000 FPS. I don't have the pressure right in front of me. But I was looking for 16-18 BHN without having to use up a lot of Linotype if possible. If I have to then I have to. I am not going to lose sleep over it, I don't shoot that many boolits!

[popper]

Lead with 2% Sb will harden when WD. As just speeds it up. It will take a week or so to reach final BHN. Sn slows the process. The colder the water the more hardness so I use chipped ice from the fridge, let it melt in the water. To avoid accidents, I cook a large batch (400F for and hr) then dump in 32F H2O. Sulfur is a good hardener also but stinks terribly. Little tricky to use, yard sulfur in a teaspoon on top of the 'just liquid' alloy till the sulfur melts, then stir in. You don't want the sulfur to burn! As the alloy cools, sulfur outgasses and is stinky. Still need the 2% Sb to work.

[super6]

Popper, I used sulfur to get rid of zinc once upon a time and the lead was much harder when the experiment was over. So I can see that as a hardener.

[Retumbo]

I got about 24 BHN from water quenched COWW + Pewter

I got about 20 BHN after powder coating and quenching.

Using Lee hardness tester

[MUSTANG]

Popper, I used sulfur to get rid of zinc once upon a time and the lead was much harder when the experiment was over. So I can see that as a hardener.


^^ Plus 1 ^^^ Exactly what I have done when Zink Contamination occurred by accident a couple of times.

[whisler]

I mixed and water dropped a mixture that should = 96,3,2 alloy. tested at one day, one week, & one month. 1 day 13 BHN (pencil test), 1 week 13 BHN, 1 month 22 BHN.

[fredj338]

I suspect your not quite getting the tester right. The lee is diff to get good repeatable results with the little magnifier. I have tested with my Cabin tree. Any alloy with some antimony & some arsenic will harden. Even my powder coated bullets out of the oven will harden 2-3BHN dropped in cold water.

[Rickf1985]

I would like to be able to find a Cabine tree tester but no luck.

[Rickf1985]

I would like to be able to find a Cabine tree tester but no luck. I have been able to get very repeatable tests with the Lee, you just have to be patient in using it and get the lighting just right.

[Dusty Bannister]

Cabin tree is now available at the following source. If it is in stock.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/lead-hardness-tester-standard-ctlt1.html

[mehavey]

If you have PhotoShop and a PrinterScanner. . . .

https://i.postimg.cc/t4Dqd5Z1/BHN-Meas-2-LEE-358-200-RNFP-GC.jpg

put it on the glass, scan at High-Res, and measure w/ photoshop --- perxactly.

[DonHowe]

Despite some comments in this thread, bullets cast of KNOWN clip-on Wheelwright (ban 11-12) and dropped from the mold into room temperature water will end up at 20-21 bhn per my LBT hardness tester.
Nothing tricky involved, just pour, allow sprue to harden and drop into water. I am not a metallurgical so don't know why this works or what happens within the alloy when quenched and don't need to. I read about water-quenching, tried it and verified the results by hardness testing. I never test the same day as casting nor do I size the same day as it is unnecessary. If your sizing equipment will size linotype bullets it will have no problem with water-quenched bullets as the hardness is the same.

I have also oven heat treated cast bullets, trying various time spans and have taken clip-on Wheelweights as hard as 35bhn. That is hard cast. Most recently I have water dropped Lyman #2 alloy which results in bullets reading 24 on the LBT tester.
I have read andheard statements that the LBT tester does not give true BHN reading. Maybe not but if true I doubt anything outside a lab tester is truly accurate. I have tested pure lead on the LBT and got a reading of 5. #2 reads 15 and linotype shows 21 so readers can decide for themselves.. Even if the LBT tester readings are only relative water-dropping and oven heat treating both result in much harder bullets.

These comments are based on real experience and testing.

[44MAG#1]

Water quenching OLD STYLE WHEELWEIGHTS is not an exercise that takes a lot of though. You cast with a extremely hot mold and drop the bullets into water just as the sprue gets solid enough to prevent smearing of the base of the bullet. Give the bullets at least 72 hours and check the hardness. I have gotten close to 30 BHN with old wheelweights.
As I said these newer ones I know nothing about. All I have are the old ones with the metal clip that I have had for years.
Testing a bullet just after it is quenched is a fruitless effort. Water quenching Lyman #2 alloy produces a hard bullet but they are much more brittle than old wheelweights.

[megasupermagnum]

Despite some comments in this thread, bullets cast of KNOWN clip-on Wheelwright (ban 11-12) and dropped from the mold into room temperature water will end up at 20-21 bhn per my LBT hardness tester.
Nothing tricky involved, just pour, allow sprue to harden and drop into water. I am not a metallurgical so don't know why this works or what happens within the alloy when quenched and don't need to. I read about water-quenching, tried it and verified the results by hardness testing. I never test the same day as casting nor do I size the same day as it is unnecessary. If your sizing equipment will size linotype bullets it will have no problem with water-quenched bullets as the hardness is the same.

I have also oven heat treated cast bullets, trying various time spans and have taken clip-on Wheelweights as hard as 35bhn. That is hard cast. Most recently I have water dropped Lyman #2 alloy which results in bullets reading 24 on the LBT tester.
I have read andheard statements that the LBT tester does not give true BHN reading. Maybe not but if true I doubt anything outside a lab tester is truly accurate. I have tested pure lead on the LBT and got a reading of 5. #2 reads 15 and linotype shows 21 so readers can decide for themselves.. Even if the LBT tester readings are only relative water-dropping and oven heat treating both result in much harder bullets.

These comments are based on real experience and testing.

My experiences mirror yours. This forum is usually a good place for info like this, but I'm really surprised how much misinformation ended up in this thread. It's not magic as DonHowe says. You don't need a special alloy. You don't need 2% antimony. You just need antimony and lead. Arsenic and Tin change how the alloy reacts, but they are not necessary to heat treating. All the lead hardness testers work fine, even the Lee. I've seen tests that show the Lee is actually the most accurate method. It doesn't really matter though, since worrying about 1-2 BHN is worse than a waste of time. I don't really trust the pencil test, but any of the mechanical testers are more than accurate enough for bullets.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thoughts at the subject at hand:

1. You need antimony in the alloy for it to harden.
2. What is wrong with 13 BNH?

[super6]

I do not see any disinformation here, Just alternative thoughts on the matter of achieving hardness of lead.

[44MAG#1]

It's not that there is disinformation as much as there are more than one way to do most things. Me, I select the simple ways. Most, since the advent of the internet which I didn't have when I started casting has caused, in my opinion, a desire to make things complicated. Probably because some seems to think unless something is complicated it can't be right.

[super6]

44MAG#1 I agree the more simple the better. Just gotta think outta the box.

[DonHowe]

A couple of thoughts at the subject at hand:

1. You need antimony in the alloy for it to harden.
2. What is wrong with 13 BNH?

Nothing is wrong with 13bhn for most cast bullet shooting for non magnum-pressure handgun loads or moderate velocity rifle loads. For 16gr/2400 in .30-06 9bhn is plenty hard.
If casting a particular rifle bullet that may be used at varying velocity levels including 2000+ fps, why not water drop? It takes very little extra work and I am covered for however hard I want to push the bullet. BUT. I always want the bullet to fit. Also, water dropping bullets from my remains stash of old COWW is cheap compared to buying hard alloys.
In my .44 mag days I loaded water dropped plaintive 429421s over 24.5 gr of 296 powder with no leading in my Ruger Bisley. Don't think 13bhn would do that.

[243winxb]

Dropping from mold to water has not produce the best accuracy, when compared to oven heat treated for me.

Shot 100 of each for score. Oven scored higher, better accuracy.

The bullet that sticks in the mold, delayed drop, is* not getting hardened.

[lar45]

I like to drop onto a wet sponge in the bucket of water. If I drop straight into the water, I get dented bullets. I still get hard bullets, so I'm assuming that I get enough Initial quench on the sponge.

[DonHowe]

Dropping from mold to water has not produce the best accuracy, when compared to oven heat treated for me.

Shot 100 of each for score. Oven scored higher, better accuracy.

The bullet that sticks in the mold, delayed drop, is* not getting hardened.

Dropping from mold to water is not and cannot be as accurate a heat treat method as using an oven.

The oven method means all bullets in a batch are heated for exactly the same amount of time and all quenched at once. When using the drop method the variable is the time between filling the mold and bullets hitting the water. Dropping is convenient and serves most purposes satisfactorily.

I think I am a pretty good caster but a scale does not lie (weighing bullets). A method I adopted to help my consistency is to begin counting when the mold is filled and until the hardened sprue is cut. After a few pours I get the rhythm and cut the sprue at the same count every time. When Dropping bullets into water Itry to be as consistent in motion as I can be to minimize variance in time. As I see it the more cavities a mold has the more variance in time from cavity-fill to water simply because of the time it takes to fill all the cavities. That is why I prefer 1 and 2 cavity molds. I don't need to fire hundreds of rounds per range session either for what that's worth.
On the subject of misinformation or not, I am not the most experienced person on this site but more often of late I read things which lead me to believe that some posts are reposts/rehashed of things read or heard rather than knowledge obtained from actually having done what is posted. Sometimes it is better to just sit out a discussion. I know that from experiencealso!

[Gohon]

When you are ready to lubricate, install a Lyman (450) sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them, OR Tumble lube with Alox. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die.

Okay...if this is correct then doesn't the trip down the barrel which radically resizes the bullet also surface softens the the bullet? :confused:

[243winxb]

Okay...if this is correct then doesn't the trip down the barrel which radically resizes the bullet also surface softens the the bullet? :confused:

Lyman info. Good point. The one test showed bullet hardness is thru the whole bullet. Not just the surface. https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html

From link I posted -
At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

My pistol bullets are sized to groove diameter or + .0005" to .001" larger.

Lyman- sizing a bullet down more then .003" may hurt accuracy. This is in the lube sizer.