What is different when transitioning to cast (and with a revolver)?

[Longfellow]

I will be spending the warm months practicing and testing in the hopes of using my new, JRH customized Bisley BH in 45 Colt, for Whitetail this winter. Outside of the requirement of knowing your capabilities with your chosen weapon, what should one know about shot placement in particular? I’ve never killed with anything but lung shots just behind the shoulder from broadside or quartering away, with a jacketed 270 Win. Never an issue with quick kills but it certainly taught me nothing that I can apply when it comes to a wide, flat nosed 250-300 gr bullet leaving at 1,100-1,200 f/s. Unfortunately there are too many articles and books on guns and loads (I’ve read everything Max Prasac has written) and noting (that I could find) on shot placement, impact velocity, whether one should attempt to hit bone first/last/ever…Should I trust the caster to use the correct hardness the way we trust jacketed rifle bullet manufacturers? I just need these basic unknowns cleared up to ensure I am being a responsible hunter when I go out there. Thanks.

[TurnipEaterDown]

The general school of thought that I learned, and worked well is:

With a big bore revolver, just depend on a big hole. Most cast bullets at these diameters and speeds achievable don't rely on expansion to be effective. (Designs exist that do offer expansion, but it isn't critical.) Personally, I tried several ways to do soft nose hard body lead bullets, and the performance difference I saw wasn't worth the bother.
To get 1100-1300 fps (1300 on a cast out of a Ruger 45Colt w/ 250-300 gr is Easy), you need a fairly hard bullet. I use quenched wheel weight or equivalent. Can be done other ways, but this is a good starter position.
Shot placement: Organs are organs. Puncture the major ones (heart, 2 lungs) and the deer dies soon.
No reason to try to break bones, it's ancillary and and a by product of a bullet path that destroys blood carrying / oxygenating organs. I pull up center mass on chest cavity by nature, and they die. Soon.

Lots of stuff on here about coatings vs. lube, pick what excites you if doing your own.
Me, no experience w/ coated cast bullets. Always lubed.

I would lean toward a heavier cast bullet if you don't mind the recoil. For early learning curve w/ cast you can shoot that 300/320 45bullet at the sames speeds accurately as you can with the 250, and I find it easier to get the heavier bullets to shoot well quicker in development. Alloy/groove/lube, etc. will generally keep you around 1200-1300 fps max. 1400 w/ a good combination is doable in a revolver w/o any leading.

No absolute need for a gas check in a revolver, IF the bullet fit, alloy and lube are right for what you are doing. I get 1440 fps w/ a plain base 280 in my 44 Mag SBH, and no leading.

If you like reading fairly digestible online articles, look at Linebaugh's custom sixguns website. Used to be good info on there regarding how to make a revolver reliably perform as a big game tool. The info works. I have had 3 Linebaugh guns, and shot many deer, and a bison w/ cast bullets and revolvers, worked just as good as the deer, bear, boar shot by myself w/ jacketed bullets and revolvers, if you follow proven advice.


Good luck & Enjoy.

[Rapier]

Revolver with cast:

If you shoot the shoulder on a deer, what does that leave you for meat? Not very much. You have a 2”-4” circle to hit. You need to be able to hit that circle every time, no exceptions. Make sure you can shoot the revolver you choose for hunting, with consistency.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Forget expansion, relying on expansion with a revolver is just a crutch, make sure you can hit the target, first and foremost. Get pictures of anatomical drawings, know where your aim points are.

Treat a revolver like a single shot, you will get one and only one shot. The target must be close and offer a clean shot to even take the shot.

A good start and stop point, is the deer’s neck, can you see and can you hit the center of the neck, at that distance, if not, do not take the shot.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Longfellow:
Another notable aspect of non expanding cast bullets in revolvers: Flatter wider meplat = better performance on game.
Pushed hard enough, a large flat meplat can produce astounding effect.

I shot a 160 lb deer one time years ago with a 475 Linebaugh long. 400 LBT WFN. 1600 fps at Muzzle. Deer was 12 feet from blind. Double lung shot. I measured the resultant holes w/ a pocket ruler in my wallet when field dressing: 1.5" round holes both side of hide, 2" through lungs. Literally, you probably could have dropped a roll of 1/2 dollars though. Point is: Much bigger than bullet diameter due to bullet face and speed.

Bullet shape matters. Stay away from RN non expanding cast when hunting.
I think the British learned this ~100 years ago w/ 38 Webley, and is one reason why they got to the 200 gr "manstopper".

[Thumbcocker]

Little difference. Hole through the vitals and they die. I like big hole in big hole out for blood trail. Unless you hit cns they will run a little way but they will die. Here are some pics with shot placement visible.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220314/980be88c04af4b79516b4543b595b3e6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220314/13a9e1170509174da104b20d7bccc3f8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220314/d67a4228e47df39873761020a0f761fd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220314/47c754fc89fdd1f572d9dd8f55eb6df7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220314/774f922740368b8642ce52ac8fa9fa97.jpg

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[quilbilly]

I have not hunted with my 45 LC Blackhawk but for the last 30+ years I have been hunting mule and blacktail deer with my 45 Cal. muzzleloaders using primarily patched round ball. The 45 Cal PRB weighs about 132 gr. for perspective. The heavy (250 gr.+) boolits most people prefer in the 45 LC do give you additional penetration over the PRB but the PRB has done what is required cleanly and efficiently many dozens of times for us. The bottom line is that you don't really have to go crazy with ultra heavy boolits and the recoil that goes with them to get the job done if you are an accurate shooter that can calmly take the right shot. A 200 gr. boolit lumbering along at 850 fps terminal velocity will do very well unless that buck is rutcrazed herding a group of six does (a story in itself from 3 years ago that left me stunned).

[georgerkahn]

Revolver with cast:

If you shoot the shoulder on a deer, what does that leave you for meat? Not very much. You have a 2”-4” circle to hit. You need to be able to hit that circle every time, no exceptions. Make sure you can shoot the revolver you choose for hunting, with consistency.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Forget expansion, relying on expansion with a revolver is just a crutch, make sure you can hit the target, first and foremost. Get pictures of anatomical drawings, know where your aim points are.

Treat a revolver like a single shot, you will get one and only one shot. The target must be close and offer a clean shot to even take the shot.

A good start and stop point, is the deer’s neck, can you see and can you hit the center of the neck, at that distance, if not, do not take the shot.

Bion, a friend from way back used a target .22 semiautomatic -- a High Standard, if I correctly recall -- to shoot one of the deer's LEGS! The deer would either drop or stumble in circles -- after which shooter would easily be able to place a shot where he wanted to dispatch the animal with minimal if any harm to either usable meat or head/neck for possible mounting. In my current state, it is illegal to have a rimfire firearm even on your person during deer season; this fellow was/is a Canadian... Interestingly, though, he carried a long barreled Colt SAA and his dispatch round was one of his cast bullets -- a semiwadcutter design. (A point he made was re "forensics" -- at least back then before alloys were anaylized and the like -- should the .22-shot deer (very highly unlikely) get away -- trace to him, he believed, would be pretty much impossible.)

[pmer]

Sounds like he's going to buy his boolits and he won't have much to say about hardness. So I'd say try a couple brands and use what works best. Anything with a nose width that is 80% or more of the bullet diameter is a good meplat size for hunting. Keep in mind the super wide noses need more velocity to be accurate at longer distances.

On one hand try not to hit them too high because there won't be as much blood for tracking. On the other hand the angle is not as important because these slugs will penetrate a long way.

[Misery-Whip]

Haven't met anyone who eats lungs. So I shoot em there...they don't go far, only downhill...

[CastingFool]

I always favored the heart/lung shot, but I e discovered the neck shot, close to the head. The deer drop on the spot. No trailing, or tracking involved.

[Pipefitter]

One thing no one else has mentioned: make sure there isn't another deer standing behind the one you are shooting at unless you have tags for both.
I had a herd of does and yearlings walk up to me when I was hunting with my Ruger Blackhawk in 45LC, shooting home swaged 250gn TCFP launched at approxamatley 1100fps. Picked out the biggest doe at about 40 yards, was concentrating on the front sight and the sweet spot for a quick kill. Never noticed the yearling doe that walked behind momma. Got them both through the lungs. Lucky for me I had 2 doe tags.

[M-Tecs]

I will be spending the warm months practicing and testing in the hopes of using my new, JRH customized Bisley BH in 45 Colt, for Whitetail this winter. Outside of the requirement of knowing your capabilities with your chosen weapon, what should one know about shot placement in particular? I’ve never killed with anything but lung shots just behind the shoulder from broadside or quartering away, with a jacketed 270 Win. Never an issue with quick kills but it certainly taught me nothing that I can apply when it comes to a wide, flat nosed 250-300 gr bullet leaving at 1,100-1,200 f/s. Unfortunately there are too many articles and books on guns and loads (I’ve read everything Max Prasac has written) and noting (that I could find) on shot placement, impact velocity, whether one should attempt to hit bone first/last/ever…Should I trust the caster to use the correct hardness the way we trust jacketed rifle bullet manufacturers? I just need these basic unknowns cleared up to ensure I am being a responsible hunter when I go out there. Thanks.

Good shot placement is good shot placement period. With a handgun that normally would be the lungs. With a flat nosed 250-300 gr bullet leaving at 1,100-1,200 f/s you will have more than enough penetration so hitting major bones is not an issue. You will find the amount of bloodshot meat far less than your 270 produces. The claim is you can eat up to the hole. I have not found that to be true but you do get significantly less meat loss verse high velocity rifles.

It sounds like you are purchasing the bullets so you are at the mercy of the alloy the commercial caster is using. Lots of ways to get hard bullets. Some are better than others and not needed unless the goal is maximum penetration for larger game. Personally I like 20-1 alloy for that velocity and application. With 20-1 (in addition to the flat nose) you should get some expansion.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?439354-20-1-is-fine-stuff

[lar45]

Hi Longfellow, first things first.
We need some pics of your JRH customized 45 Bisley.
Lots of good advise above.
Practice from any position you might shoot from, off hand, sitting , leaning against a tree...
Have fun and enjoy.

[725]

Take out the heart / lungs and it won't go far.

[gunseller]

Shot placement the same as with 270. As for bullets. The diameter should be a thousand or two bigger than your barrels slugs. Prevents leading and shoots better. I put a 250 grain round nose flat point in one side through both lungs and out the other side at just over 200 yards of a 10 point white tail buck. Launch speed was around 1200 fps. When your first handgun deer hits the ground you will just float over to them. You won't have to walk over as you will be on cloud 9.
Steve

[kingrj]

Not complicated....put a big fat hard cast SWC through the heart/lungs and you are good to go. Great thing about a heavy .45 cal hard cast is that you can get it into the heart/lungs from ANY angle on a typical whitetail....It will shoot through a deer from stem to stern...

[Screwbolts]

Cost

[farmbif]

lots of good info at this link,
might jump to chapter 15 if nothing else

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[Beerd]

Cost

that's a good one! :bigsmyl2:
..

[Longfellow]

Great information guys. I am much more comfortable doing this. Bullets will be purchased. Correct. I have to check with the supplier of the WFN 250's I have but if they are not up to the task I'll get what is. Since shot placement is no different, that just leaves some load development and practice. Jack fit a custom heavy taper, banded barrel and fluted cylinder, and replaceable front sight. I have no need to exceed what the base gun is capable of, and no desire to be behind anything more powerful, so we kept it a six shot cylinder. I did have to have Doug Phillips hone out the throats which Jack left quite small (.4497-.4507) and wouldn't even pass factory jacketed .451's. Now all is dimensionally compatible and the added weight of this barrel makes it very comfortable (at least up to 1,000 f/s. I will probably not increase this until I have many more rounds through it to build up recoil tolerance). Thanks all for the very useful input.
Ed
297778

[sharps4590]

You don't need 1500 fps. You don't need 18 BHN. You don't need 320 grs. There isn't a deer living that can't be killed with 250-260 gr., KTSWC or any other good, WFN bullet at 1000-1100 fps. Bullet fit to cylinder mouths AND identical cylinder mouths is a lot more important than BHN.

[Thumbcocker]

Keep us posted on your progress. That gun ought to be a shooter.

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[MostlyLeverGuns]

A 250 grain SWC bullet at 1000 fps works fine out of a 45 Colt or 44 Special or Magnum. Bullet hardness isn't particularly critical either. Heart/Lung shots work well, a deer moves its head and neck A LOT.
You can shoot out an eye, break a jaw or punch a hole through the neck without killing the animal, not something I care to do. The 250 SWC at 1000 fps will get the heart/lungs from about any angle, though I would not take a Texas heart shot. More velocity will flatten trajectory and increase recoil and muzzle blast. More bullet weight simply increases recoil. Muzzle blast is something folks don't mention, but it does affect your shooting. The 45 Colt has been around a very long time because it works very well without much hot-rodding.

[truckjohn]

A few mechanical things gun wise... Make sure the bullets fit the gun, and that you can load said bullets to fit in the chambers properly. I've run into more than one nasty leaded up mess because the chambers wouldn't take bullets large enough for the barrel. Same for your reloading dies. Make sure they will take the diameter bullet without mushing it down 0.005" undersize.

[selmerfan]

There really isn't much practical differenc between your .45 Colt and your .270 Winchester when it comes to killing deer. Max range is max range - if you can hit a volleyball at that range you're in the money, whether that's 50 yards with the revolver or 500 yards with the .270. Put the bullet in the same place. The main terminal performance difference is that the .45 Colt with your proposed bullet and loads will penetrate any deer walking from stem to stern. I've killed lots of deer with a .454 Casull and .357 Maximum with cast boolits. I have yet to "catch" one in a deer, even at 200 yards (I use a scoped single shot TC Encore and a rest). Put a bullet through the lungs/heart and it's going to die. And you'll have a LOT less meat damage. I grew up in South Dakota killing deer with .30-06, .308 Win, .243 Win., .260 Rem, etc. I love hunting deer with rifles. Then I moved to Iowa and refused to shoot deer with a shotgun slug, so I started in with the handgun right away. You can't quite eat right up to the hole, but it's awfully close. The only difference I've noticed with blood trailing is that the impact hole will sometimes plug up with hair from the WFN. But the exit wound makes blood trailing feel like you've opened up a garden hose. I've only had one exception to that and that was a 7x5 Iowa whitetail that I shot directly facing me. Entrance hole plugged and the bullet exited a hindquarter. Zero blood trail. He went about 50 yards and piled up. Most have dropped either in their tracks or taken a few steps and crashed. There is no replacement for bullet placement.