Can God ask too much?

[dverna]

I am struggling with the story of Abraham.

At one point, Abraham is ordered to sacrifice his son Issaac as a burnt offering. In the story, Abraham does not attempt to negotiate with God (as Moses did on Mount Sinia) but dutifully goes about following the command of God. This, in spite of human sacrifice being something God has never approved.

I understand God does this to test Abraham's faith. But did God ask too much?

I could never have that degree of faith. So, I am perplexed with Abraham. Why did he did not plead for his son? How could he have followed God's command?

For those of faith, my question is.....What would you do?

If after pleading for the life of you child, God held firm, would you prove your faith by killing your son or daughter?

Let me make this more "realistic". This command from God does not come in a dream. He is talking to you directly. You have no assurance God will intercede at the last minute as in the story.

I would disobey.

[Char-Gar]

I am struggling with the story of Abraham.

At one point, Abraham is ordered to sacrifice his son Issaac as a burnt offering. In the story, Abraham does not attempt to negotiate with God (as Moses did on Mount Sinia) but dutifully goes about following the command of God. This, in spite of human sacrifice being something God has never approved.

I understand God does this to test Abraham's faith. But did God ask too much?

I could never have that degree of faith. So, I am perplexed with Abraham. Why did he did not plead for his son? How could he have followed God's command?

For those of faith, my question is.....What would you do?

If after pleading for the life of you child, God held firm, would you prove your faith by killing your son or daughter?

Let me make this more "realistic". This command from God does not come in a dream. He is talking to you directly. You have no assurance God will intercede at the last minute as in the story.

I would disobey.

You are not having trouble with obedience vs. disobedience. You are having trouble with good vs. evil. Even the word "good" stems from the word "god". God is ultimate good. All that he does and asks is therefore good. When we feel we can substitute our notion of good for God's, then the problems began. God has and will ask us to do hard things, at least things we consider hard, but they are in fact good. The very nature of sin in the denial of God's absolute moral authority and claiming that right for ourselves. Abraham knew this, you do not.

[Ickisrulz]

At the time of this event, "The Binding of Isaac", Abraham had learned to trust God's promises, fairness and ability to act in human affairs. Abraham had come a long way in understanding God. He no longer felt the need to beg for the innocent as he had for Sodom and Gomorrah. He believed God knew what he was asking for. The author of Hebrews says that since God's promises to Abraham came through Isaac, Abraham reasoned God would raise Isaac from the dead.

Other things to note:

Isaac was not a baby at the time of this event, he wasn't even a child. Isaac was a young man that could have overpowered his elderly father had he not consented to the sacrifice. So the sacrifice was Isaac's just as much as his father's.

God only asked for two human sacrifices in the whole biblical period. The first was Isaac and the last was Jesus.

Scholars believe that Moriah is where Jesus was crucified 2,000 years after Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac. The parallels between Abraham sacrificing Isaac and God sacrificing Jesus are well known.

[dverna]

You are not having trouble with obedience vs. disobedience. You are having trouble with good vs. evil. Even the word "good" stems from the word "god". God is ultimate good. All that he does and asks is therefore good. When we feel we can substitute our notion of good for God's, then the problems began. God has and will ask us to do hard things, at least things we consider hard, but they are in fact good. The very nature of sin in the denial of God's absolute moral authority and claiming that right for ourselves. Abraham knew this, you do not.

I did not bring up good and evil but I see where you are going...deflecting. In this case, it is not a matter of good and evil.

It is more a question of do I value my faith more than my child? I will choose my child. I am being honest. My faith may give me eternal life (which is granted by grace anyway?) or maybe a better room in God's house. But if the choice was hell or killing my child I would pick hell.

You have not answered the question and it is a simple question. Words of faith are just that...words.
Would you kill your child? Do you have that much faith?



With 44 views and no responses...I assume not many have total faith in God on this question. That is not a bad thing. God may want that degree of faith but does not expect it.

The "bad" thing is that it opens the door to question faith when lesser choices test our faith. That is something we must be careful to avoid.,,having an affair, perversion, greed, stealing, etc etc. And thus the title "Can God ask too much?". On most things the answer is NO!

I may be of little faith but will do the best I can.

[Char-Gar]

I may be of little faith but will do the best I can.

I was not deflecting, but correcting. The Abraham and Isaac is a story of what IS good and what IS evil. Good is defined by God, evil is human self deification. You miss the entire point of the Abraham and Isaac narrative, but that is what I expected. You lack the eyes of faith to see and understand. You can only think in terms of human thought and cannot conceive of a God who is "wholly other". Your god, if you have one, is way to small, no bigger than your own thinking i.e. God must play by your rules...you insist on it. You really do have a very immature concept of God. But that is to be expected "flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets spirit.".

If in fact, I was one hundred percent convinced that God wanted me to kill my child, I would. Is that straight enough? Whatever God desires will be good, because there are no shades of grey in our Creator. God is all good and is not limited or bound by my concepts of what is good and evil. What humans call good and evil, may not be what God calls good and evil. That was my point, which you missed. Faith transcends human thinking and human understanding. Creator God is by nature transcendent. Abraham knew this, but you do not.

I have been though allot in this life, far more than you know. Some of it has been done for God, but all of it has been with God. On two occasions I have been only seconds away from being killed for standing with Christ. I have been both Abraham and Isaac at the same time.

BTW: You can do better. It is just that you choose not to. You cling so very closely to your self and are not willing to throw caution to the wind and jump into the arms of God is who all good, all loving and all just. Faith is nothing more than extreme unlimited trust, but you reserve that level of trust for yourself.

I will take my leave of this topic now, as you will never understand or see for you are so closely bound and chained to your own self.

[Ickisrulz]

I guess my answer was not to the point. No, God never asks too much.

To compare yourself to Abraham and try to decide what you'd do in his position is not fair to yourself. You are not in Abraham's position, never will be and never could be. I suspect if God had asked a much younger Abram to sacrifice his child, he would have argued much the way he did over Sodom and Gomorrah. But the more experienced Abraham obeyed because of what he had learned of God over the previous decades. He knew God could be trusted. Abraham did not find God's request to be "too much."


Of course the whole point of asking Abraham to sacrifice his son might be to make parents think on how horrible do so would be. Then God did that the very thing for us.

[hoodat]

"If after pleading for the life of you child, God held firm, would you prove your faith by killing your son or daughter?"
"I would disobey."

And how far would you carry your disobedience? If not your son or daughter -- your mother? Sister, brother, cousin, neighbor? Your dog?

I think that God knew the strength of Abrahams faith, and Abraham knew only to trust in God. I'd like to think that if I had literally walked and talked with God that my obedience would be like Abrahams; and indeed, my faith and trust should be better than it is.

I'm gonna say though that if I ever hear the literal voice of God, I'm going to do what he tells me to. jd

[GhostHawk]

I may not have walked but I have talked with the Lord. Never has he asked me to do something I felt was morally wrong.

Difficult, yes, and often. But not wrong or evil.

I agree with what Char Gar said. "God is ultimate good. All that he does and asks is therefore good."

I don't believe he would ever ask me to kill my dog or my wife. I have no son so that is not an option.

What he has asked me to do has either been

A Helpful or uplifting for another in need.

B Helpful in my own spiritual growth.

He has given me one job to do, to watch over, look after, and help a neighbor.
One day she called me, her van needed brake work. She needed 500$ to pay them or they were not going to release her van.

So I took 500$ out of my cash stash, walked to her house. Convinced her that it was not my money but the Lords, and he wanted her to have it.

On my walk down the alley back home I heard the words that I never thought I would hear.

"William Thomas thou good and faithful servant, well DONE. You did this knowing it would please me without me asking."

I hit my knees, eyes full of tears, lips praising the Lord. Puppy licking my face going "What's wrong dad? You Ok?" Yes Casey pup, all is well.

I don't know that this will help Don, I hope it does.

Sometimes you just have to give it time and let it soak in. And sometimes when you have questions take them to him in prayer. And then LISTEN!

[Good Cheer]

Wow. Thanks. I'm grateful to have turned on this lap top.
[smilie=w:

[JimB..]

What if it is just a story to make a point and not factually accurate? Is it so hard to imagine that the message was once that Abraham’s faith was so strong that if God had asked…and that it evolved over the telling through hundreds of generations before ever being reduced to writing?

More importantly, and not that we’ll ever know on this side of the curtain, but if that is what happened, would it change anything about your faith?

[Hogtamer]

Don,
I believe that Abraham was unique in the telling of God’s word. The point was the parallel and comparison to Christ. Put another way would you ask God to sacrifice his son for us? Yet that is exactly what He did for us, unasked, one perfect sacrifice for all. The story is a beautiful illustration of God’s pure love for us. He had no intention of allowing Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. In the end Abraham’s faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

[dverna]

I appreciate those who have helped me understand and think this through...both in this thread and via PMs.

[exile]

I believe this biblical (and thus true) account is meant to point us to God's willingness to sacrifice His own Son on the cross for our sins. How difficult (and unfair) a sacrifice that was. None of us deserve such love.

exile

[ioon44]

ESV 1Co 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

This comes to mind when reading the thread.

[Good Cheer]

ESV 1Co 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

This comes to mind when reading the thread.

And that's the spot on truth of the matter.

[1hole]

I am struggling with the story of Abraham.

At one point, Abraham is ordered to sacrifice his son Issaac as a burnt offering. In the story, Abraham does not attempt to negotiate with God (as Moses did on Mount Sinia) but dutifully goes about following the command of God. This, in spite of human sacrifice being something God has never approved.

Don't struggle over Abraham's story because God had no intention of sacrificing Isaac. In that story God made a living parable of the coming sacrifice of his own son and nothing less could illustrate the pain of that event.

Those who believe they deserve eternal life in God's heaven because they easily meet their own low standard of worthiness and reject Jesus' sacrifice effectively spit at the sacrifice of both the Father and Son. That's some really bad juju.


I understand God does this to test Abraham's faith. But did God ask too much?

It wasn't a "test" of Abe's faith in the sense you mean. God knew what both Abe and Issak were going to do, He certainly didn't have to peek over a cloud to see might happen that day - but they didn't know what they would do, nor do we until we face a "test"!

God obviously didn't ask too much of Abraham's faith. But, yeah, it would be too much to ask of most of us but that doesn't matter because we haven't been and we won't be asked to do that.


So, I am perplexed with Abraham. Why did he did not plead for his son? How could he have followed God's command?

Just for a perspective on life, now is important to us not because it's so great but because it's all we yet know. However, compared to eternity, this life - long or short - means less than a blink of an eye in a thousand years.

Abe and Isaak had promises from God that could only be fulfilled by Isaac. Thus, they trusted God even against what human experience expects. That level of trust didn't suddenly appear from within themselves, it had to have been developed over a lifetime of experiencing God's trustworthiness.


For those of faith, my question is.....What would you do?

If after pleading for the life of you child, God held firm, would you prove your faith by killing your son or daughter?

Let me make this more "realistic". This command from God does not come in a dream. He is talking to you directly. You have no assurance God will intercede at the last minute as in the story.

I would disobey.

That's not realistic, that's easy chair "what if ..." daydreaming.

Unless we, like Abe, were experienced believers who has repeatedly seen the mighty hands of God at work virtually all of us
would certainly disobey and fail such a contrived test. But, again, we have not and will never be asked that question so playing "what if ... " games all by ourselves really doesn't matter.

[a danl]

I am struggling with the story of Abraham.

At one point, Abraham is ordered to sacrifice his son Issaac as a burnt offering. In the story, Abraham does not attempt to negotiate with God (as Moses did on Mount Sinia) but dutifully goes about following the command of God. This, in spite of human sacrifice being something God has never approved.

I understand God does this to test Abraham's faith. But did God ask too much?

I could never have that degree of faith. So, I am perplexed with Abraham. Why did he did not plead for his son? How could he have followed God's command?

For those of faith, my question is.....What would you do?

If after pleading for the life of you child, God held firm, would you prove your faith by killing your son or daughter?

Let me make this more "realistic". This command from God does not come in a dream. He is talking to you directly. You have no assurance God will intercede at the last minute as in the story.

I would disobey.

it was because he believed that God would raise him from the dead. God was putting him to the test to prove his faith. remember abraham was justified by his faith

[Char-Gar]

When struggling with this story, remember Abraham's history with God. God called Abraham out of his tent and told him to look at all the stars in they sky and promised him that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars. His wife Sarah was way, way past child bearing age and she had never had a child. Abraham himself was well into geezerhood. God was promising to Abraham the impossible and he came through with Issacs.

Abraham took God as His word, even though God had promised the impossible. Abraham's faith was radical and extreme, believing in the impossible when it was promised by God. Issac was the product of that starry night promise and now Abraham was being asked to cut off his line entirely. The sacrifice made no sense whatsoever, still Abraham had faith in the goodness and nature of God and was willing to obey, his obedience was radical and extreme.

Abraham's faith is the porotype for all believers, or should be. This is the level of faith that God wants and expects from us. Still we equivocate, try and explain and justify what God asked. This is the first lesson of faith, all other stories are just examples of how folks follow or don't follow the faith of Abraham.

The message here from God is: Don't try and apply your human understanding to my will. I am not like you and you cannot and will never understand me. You do not judge me, I judge you! Just do as I say and you and yours will experience the fullness of my grace. I will give you nothing but good.

For the faithful, the faith of Abraham should be our first thought when we get up and our last thought when we lay down. Call me hard or harsh, but the time for sweet easy to swallow words is now gone. Time for essential, albeit sometimes hard truthful words. I am in short rows with no time left to dance around the subject and cajole people with easy half truths.

[.429&H110]

Can God ask too much?
"Too much" might be our limited opinion of our limited abilities.
God knows what we can do, God knows us better than we do.
At Christmas we learn: With God nothing is impossible.
He's a Big God.

A modern example would be a pastor's wife. God calls a man to be a pastor, but does He call the pastor's wife? She isn't going to be paid, no days off, watching her husband burn out unthanked, while she must walk a saint's walk. A pastor's wife will be part of his ministry, and he will be judged by the public for her hair-do. Can God ask too much of a pastor's wife? Do we ask too much of her?

So if you meet a pastor's wife, thank her and ask her if you can help, and don't be surprised that you get a job of work.

[Good Cheer]

This world is a refining process for us. We get fed in and cycled through the process. The good end product gets shipped out and the waste gets burned off.
http://i.imgur.com/dWZXfqe.jpg (https://imgur.com/dWZXfqe)
If you make the grade you're good to go.

As involved as we become in this world and in this life, still, we came here to die.
That's the way I see it so from that perspective I can't help but wonder how much knowledge Abraham had been provided.

[Char-Gar]

This world is a refining process for us. We get fed in and cycled through the process. The good end product gets shipped out and the waste gets burned off. If you make the grade you're good to go.

As involved as we become in this world and in this life, still, we came here to die.
That's the way I see it so from that perspective I can't help but wonder how much knowledge Abraham had been provided.

Excellent illustration of an eternal truth. I am certain Abraham knew as much as you and I and also knew how to survive the refining process.

[Pepe le PewPew]

Folks, some other thoughts.
Just mine don’t claim divine interpretations.
I think that perhaps God was teaching additional things as well.
Human sacrifice was quite common in those days.
NOT making Abraham follow through, and providing a lesser sacrifice not only proved Gods provision but differentiated HIM from the local gods.

[Char-Gar]

Folks, some other thoughts.
Just mine don’t claim divine interpretations.
I think that perhaps God was teaching additional things as well.
Human sacrifice was quite common in those days.
NOT making Abraham follow through, and providing a lesser sacrifice not only proved Gods provision but differentiated HIM from the local gods.

I don't claim "divine interpretations" but I will claim deep knowledge of Scripture. I have spent the last 53 years as a student and teacher of the Bible. If a fellow doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion by that time, there is no hope for him.

There are some threads that run throughout all of Scripture, both NT and OT. Abrahamic Faith is one such powerful thread which forms the gold standard for understanding Judeo-Christian concept of faith.

Lots of folks opine and guess and some folks know. Scriptural truth is not elastic or Playdough that folks can mold and form into whatever they wish. If we wish to claim Biblical faith, then we must first know what that is.

[MT Gianni]

When struggling with this story, remember Abraham's history with God. God called Abraham out of his tent and told him to look at all the stars in they sky and promised him that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars. His wife Sarah was way, way past child bearing age and she had never had a child. Abraham himself was well into geezerhood. God was promising to Abraham the impossible and he came through with Issacs.

Abraham took God as His word, even though God had promised the impossible. Abraham's faith was radical and extreme, believing in the impossible when it was promised by God. Issac was the product of that starry night promise and now Abraham was being asked to cut off his line entirely. The sacrifice made no sense whatsoever, still Abraham had faith in the goodness and nature of God and was willing to obey, his obedience was radical and extreme.


The promise was made to Sarah as well. Abraham had other children, Sarah did not. When he and Isaac walked to the place of sacrifice Abraham had to ask if God kept his promises. If so, no need to sacrifice because he would be stopped. If not, no point in the sacrifice.

[Char-Gar]

The promise was made to Sarah as well. Abraham had other children, Sarah did not. When he and Isaac walked to the place of sacrifice Abraham had to ask if God kept his promises. If so, no need to sacrifice because he would be stopped. If not, no point in the sacrifice.

Yes, Abraham had other children. The "promise" passed through Issac the child of Sarah and Abraham. A study of the OT will show this "promise" is reissued several times. It is easy to lose the ball in the high weeds and get bogged down in what if and maybe so, and could have been. The main thing, the ball to watch, is the "promise" and the nature of Abrahamic faith. These things take on a life and are carried though Scripture in it's entirety. The rest of the stuff is left by the roadside. Fun to speculate, but nothing there upon which to build a redemptive faith.

Preachers love to put a truth in a morter and grind it into as many fragments as possible. They get more sermons that way and seem much smarter to find these hidden truths which most often are not relevant to the main point of the truth. But, I digress....

[Pepe le PewPew]

I don't claim "divine interpretations" but I will claim deep knowledge of Scripture. I have spent the last 53 years as a student and teacher of the Bible. If a fellow doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion by that time, there is no hope for him.

There are some threads that run throughout all of Scripture, both NT and OT. Abrahamic Faith is one such powerful thread which forms the gold standard for understanding Judeo-Christian concept of faith.

Lots of folks opine and guess and some folks know. Scriptural truth is not elastic or Playdough that folks can mold and form into whatever they wish. If we wish to claim Biblical faith, then we must first know what that is.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but two things: one, how does what I said contradict anything you or scripture states?
Two, you speak as if I have brought heresy to the table and that 53 years of your studying has closed the understanding of the cannon.
Pharisees were similar.
I will not get into a chest or Bible thumping match with a self proclaimed expert.
There are many historical contextual clues to understanding scripture, all I did was comment on one.
Be blessed.

[Char-Gar]

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but two things: one, how does what I said contradict anything you or scripture states?
Two, you speak as if I have brought heresy to the table and that 53 years of your studying has closed the understanding of the cannon.
Pharisees were similar.
I will not get into a chest or Bible thumping match with a self proclaimed expert.
There are many historical contextual clues to understanding scripture, all I did was comment on one.
Be blessed.

Say What? You did not contradict anything I said, nor did you being heresy to the table. In fact nothing I said was in response to anything you said. I am known to take opportunities to enlarge conservations and take the conservation else where. That is what I did in this case. I certainly had no intention to "straighten you out" as I didn't see anything that needed to be straightened.

I am truly sorry that I offended you for that was not my intent. I just thought I was talking to a fellow on the same wave length as I, and things would be understood in the context of such a conversation. I committed the sin of assumption and that is my bad. However, it the truth be told, your reply contained several false assumptions about me. But let's not push that issue and go our separate ways in peace.

[truckjohn]

This is a difficult question, but one at the very center of our faith.

Remember the "Forbidden Fruit" in the garden of Eden was "Knowledge of good and evil." Rephrased, a "Moral compass" that operates independently of God's.

Neither can we see the bigger picture of the future effect, nor can we see what's already been going on outside of our concern.

King Saul could not bring himself to commit genocide against the Amalekites, and it was considered wickedness. Note that he later decided it was perfectly OK to commit genocide against his own people. There's man's moral compass at work.

So, how about the present, for example? We have soft hearted groups rushing aid into war torn areas, including right into the middle of wars... Yet the food and resources are stolen by the armies and it PROLONGS the suffering of the innocent because it enables the war to continue indefinitely, rather than forcing an end when one side starves out.

[Eddie Southgate]

No , I would not kill my child or any other member of my family . I'd just have to suffer whatever comes from my disobedience.

[wv109323]

Abraham had been promised his seed would come through Isaac as the sands of the sea. Abraham had enough faith to believe in his sons resurection if he followed God's direct command.
Abraham had the faith to foresee resurection and we have to have the faith to believe in Christ's resurection.
God can not ask us to offer a sacrifice, because Christ's sacrifice is for all and final.

[1hole]

Remember the "Forbidden Fruit" in the garden of Eden was "Knowledge of good and evil." Rephrased, a "Moral compass" that operates independently of God's.

Correct.

Few people seem to grasp that Adam and Eve were drawn to that "fruit" because they wanted to decide what was "good or evil" - i.e., right or wrong - for themselves, not just trust and obey their heavenly father in faith that He knows what's best for his children. And that rebellion is still the starting motivation of those who know about but choose to reject God.

Childish stubborn "smart" people effectively stamp their feet and tell God, "Hey, I'm all grown up and really smart myself now so I know what's right and wrong for me better than you, therefore you're not going to be the boss of ME!" That's the core of what spiritual naysayers think they're "thinking". But ... it's some really dumb thinking, even for a child.

* This world is a mess, please come quickly Lord Jesus! :)

[Char-Gar]

Correct.

Few people seem to grasp that Adam and Eve were drawn to that "fruit" because they wanted to decide what was "right or wrong" for themselves, not just trust and obey their father in faith that He knows best. And that rebellion is still the starting motivation of those who know about but choose to reject God.

Childish "smart" people effectively tell God, "Hey, you know I'm really smart myself so I know what's right and wrong better than you; therefore, you're not going to be the boss of ME!" That's what they think they're "thinking" but ... it's some really dumb thinking, even for a child.

* This world is a mess, please come quickly Lord Jesus! :)

Dead spot on! The essence and nature of sin is "self deification" i.e. becoming one's own god/moral authority. God reserved that to himself.

[Bigslug]

Wasn't it Hitler's SS, or one of Stalin's units, that had recruits raise, train, and bond with a puppy. . .only to order them to shoot their new best friend in the head to ensure that the graduate would obey orders from "the authority" without question? Seems that Abraham was a likely model, and a worthy warning for us to beware of "true believers" of any stripe, as they are just an unthinking tool crafted to serve another's purpose.

As a non-believing / highly doubting sort, God actually showing up and asking ANYTHING of us is one of my main sticking points, but if he did, and that was what was asked, I'd have a few questions:

1. Why does God need to test my faith? He's GOD - doesn't he KNOW?

2. What would be my standing in the community if my reaction was ANYTHING but telling God he could go perform an anatomical impossibility with himself?

3. If "The Plan" requires my child to die, would not a humane God be able to come up with a triggerman who would come to the party with less angst? Cancer, a brain aneurysm, failed brakes on a city bus, a mugger in the night? Take your pick.

4. In the "Ha! Ha! Just kidding!" scenario of Abraham, I see a couple likely outcomes:

(a.) Abraham's faith is going to be severely shaken, and he'll be left wondering if continuing to follow the sick Reichsmarshall who asked him to shoot his puppy is really what he wants to be doing.

(b.) Abraham's kid is going to have a very hard time trusting his dad ever again, and is likely to give Satan a call, opening the conversation with "Tell me more about this revolution of yours - that God guy is NUTS!"

In this scenario, God is asking you to do something that God himself programmed you to reject as WRONG. To be fair, I'm not sailing from the same dock as your theological boat, let alone riding in it, but I'd have little use for such a malevolent lying/trickster bastard. "Moving in mysterious ways" is not for me.

It IS a good point of discussion.:drinks:

[Shanghai Jack]

Can God ask too much?

He gave us Biden-Harris, of course he can

[Good Cheer]

Wasn't it Hitler's SS, or one of Stalin's units, that had recruits raise, train, and bond with a puppy. . .only to order them to shoot their new best friend in the head to ensure that the graduate would obey orders from "the authority" without question? Seems that Abraham was a likely model, and a worthy warning for us to beware of "true believers" of any stripe, as they are just an unthinking tool crafted to serve another's purpose.

As a non-believing / highly doubting sort, God actually showing up and asking ANYTHING of us is one of my main sticking points, but if he did, and that was what was asked, I'd have a few questions:

1. Why does God need to test my faith? He's GOD - doesn't he KNOW?

2. What would be my standing in the community if my reaction was ANYTHING but telling God he could go perform an anatomical impossibility with himself?

3. If "The Plan" requires my child to die, would not a humane God be able to come up with a triggerman who would come to the party with less angst? Cancer, a brain aneurysm, failed brakes on a city bus, a mugger in the night? Take your pick.

4. In the "Ha! Ha! Just kidding!" scenario of Abraham, I see a couple likely outcomes:

(a.) Abraham's faith is going to be severely shaken, and he'll be left wondering if continuing to follow the sick Reichsmarshall who asked him to shoot his puppy is really what he wants to be doing.

(b.) Abraham's kid is going to have a very hard time trusting his dad ever again, and is likely to give Satan a call, opening the conversation with "Tell me more about this revolution of yours - that God guy is NUTS!"

In this scenario, God is asking you to do something that God himself programmed you to reject as WRONG. To be fair, I'm not sailing from the same dock as your theological boat, let alone riding in it, but I'd have little use for such a malevolent lying/trickster bastard. "Moving in mysterious ways" is not for me.

It IS a good point of discussion.:drinks:

OK, you're not smart enough to be God but we already knew that.

[Gobeyond]

He doesn’t ask too much but sometimes it sure seems like it.

[1hole]

Seems that Abraham was a likely model, and a worthy warning for us to beware of "true believers" of any stripe, as they are just an unthinking tool crafted to serve another's purpose.

Spiritual things are spiritually perceived. We believers know and see things from inside the family of God so we have a totally different spiritual insight and perspective on what's important from you.


As a non-believing / highly doubting sort, God actually showing up and asking ANYTHING of us is one of my main sticking points, but if he did, and that was what was asked, I'd have a few questions:

1. Why does God need to test my faith? He's GOD - doesn't he KNOW?

2. What would be my standing in the community if my reaction was ANYTHING but telling God he could go perform an anatomical impossibility with himself?

3. If "The Plan" requires my child to die, would not a humane God be able to come up with a triggerman who would come to the party with less angst? Cancer, a brain aneurysm, failed brakes on a city bus, a mugger in the night? Take your pick.

4. In the "Ha! Ha! Just kidding!" scenario of Abraham, I see a couple likely outcomes:

(a.) Abraham's faith is going to be severely shaken, and he'll be left wondering if continuing to follow the sick Reichsmarshall who asked him to shoot his puppy is really what he wants to be doing.

Relax, both Isaak and your puppy are quite safe. God is making you a very nice eternal life offer at this time but he sure isn't going to ask you for anything. The choice of accepting God's gift of eternal heaven by way of Jesus' atoning blood sacrifice of himself for payment of your sin penalty - and not Isaak or a ram - in your place is your's alone. (See John 3:16-18 and think about it carefully, making the wrong decision has horrific long term consequences.)

You have a massively wrong interpretation of what was happening on Mt. Moriah that day. But, skipping a lot of important stuff, even you would have to agree that God obviously had no plan for Isaac to be sacrificed so your specious speculations have no meaning.

So, what was in play that day?

Well, it's clear to me that God gave those two men absolute assurance that trusting in Him gives his followers spiritual comfort even in the worst of life's situations. AND, by rational extension, that blessed "peace like a river" truth applies to the rest of his followers as well. It applies to me and I know a lot of other old people but I know of no Christian who fears death!


(b.) Abraham's kid is going to have a very hard time trusting his dad ever again, and is likely to give Satan a call, opening the conversation with "Tell me more about this revolution of yours - that God guy is NUTS!"

Nuts. Abraham's grown kid had to have known the stories about himself since infancy and obviously trusted God's future promises. Thus, Isaac had the same level of trust in the God who confirmed exactly the same spiritual lesson to both of them.


In this scenario, God is asking you to do something that God himself programmed you to reject as WRONG.

And, again, it should be clear even to people like you that the spiritual example was made and God has never asked that of anyone else. And even then He clearly had no intention of allowing Isaak to be slain so your well thought out speculations are in vain.

:)

[Good Cheer]

Yeah, to piggyback on things said before, sometimes what He sets before you with can seem overwhelming. We get comfortable with where ever we are and stepping out of that "place" can be scary. People can freeze up, not taking any action 'cause like Yogi Berra said, you got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there.
But it's a choice God is giving you. And like Berra said about coming to a fork in the road, you should take it.

Have faith in God and the scary turns into something else.

[William Yanda]

From the title question I did not expect Abraham's experience to be the subject. My initial response is that God promised that His strength is sufficient for us. Are you calling him a liar?
I identify with the father who approached Christ on behalf of his child. "Lord, I believe, help Thou my unbelief."