Too much fouling?

[Silhouette]

I've just bought a Uberti 1885 High Wall 45-70 and want to try bpcr silhouettes. I've never loaded black powder before and no one else in my club shoots black powder so I only know what I can find online.

I bought some 515gn hardcast boolits and loaded up 3 rounds with 59.5gns of Wano ffg, a cardboard wad from a cereal box and lubed the projectiles with 50/50 beeswax and petroleum jelly.
Seating depth was .725" and compression was roughly .2"

The 3 shots gave me a 2 1/2" group at 100yds which I thought was reasonable for my first group.
I didn't chronograph so have no idea of velocity or consistency.

But here is my problem;
I had to run a patch through after every shot or else the next the next round wouldn't chamber. The patch came out incredibly dirty and the fouling seemed a bit "fibrous".
Is this normal?
What is the cause of this and how do I fix it?

[Don McDowell]

You probably need more powder, and use a better lube. If you don't have access to a good blackpowder lube try adding an oz or so of refined jojoba oil to your lube mix.
Running a patch thru between shots is a good plan to maintain accuracy. Use a nylon brush on a rod with a barely damp flannel patch.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I wipe after every shot with the old favourite "moose milk", no you don't have to run down a cow moose, mix 1 part soluble machine oil with 4 parts water. I have adopted the old fashioned shooting 'wet' that is after every shot wipe with a damp patch then do not wipe dry.

Shooting wet keeps the fouling soft and coats the bore. This group at 100yds with 545gn boolit and 67gn of Wano 2FG.

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2l.jpg

[Silhouette]

Thanks for the replies. I understand the advantages of patching between shots, but I still don't understand though why I can't chamber a round without running a patch through first.

[indian joe]

I've just bought a Uberti 1885 High Wall 45-70 and want to try bpcr silhouettes. I've never loaded black powder before and no one else in my club shoots black powder so I only know what I can find online.

I bought some 515gn hardcast boolits and loaded up 3 rounds with 59.5gns of Wano ffg, a cardboard wad from a cereal box and lubed the projectiles with 50/50 beeswax and petroleum jelly.
Seating depth was .725" and compression was roughly .2"

The 3 shots gave me a 2 1/2" group at 100yds which I thought was reasonable for my first group.
I didn't chronograph so have no idea of velocity or consistency.

But here is my problem;
I had to run a patch through after every shot or else the next the next round wouldn't chamber. The patch came out incredibly dirty and the fouling seemed a bit "fibrous".
Is this normal?
What is the cause of this and how do I fix it?

wano is not the cleanest burning powder ever made but its what we can get
some things to try
1) Don says more powder --if you can hang that boolit right out kissing the lands - maybe get 65 grains - maybe 67 - maybe not ?
2) Try a HDPE wad instead of the light card (can cut these out of the flat part of a disposable 10 litre water jug from woolies - I think cut neat to the bore .460 these can work as a crud scraper) - maybe not - 2 1/2" at 100 yards is more than reasonable for a first BP group
3) yes to the better lube too. try substitute something vegetable or animal for the vaseline and keep the mix as soft as is practical to use - you might get away with a little less beeswax.
4) are you using a drop tube to load the powder?

To eliminate clean between shots its imperative that the boolit carries enough lube to get the job done - there are many that dont and some that do - CBE 460-535PB does - their 458-550 PB does not (at my place anyway)

[indian joe]

I've just bought a Uberti 1885 High Wall 45-70 and want to try bpcr silhouettes. I've never loaded black powder before and no one else in my club shoots black powder so I only know what I can find online.

I bought some 515gn hardcast boolits and loaded up 3 rounds with 59.5gns of Wano ffg, a cardboard wad from a cereal box and lubed the projectiles with 50/50 beeswax and petroleum jelly.
Seating depth was .725" and compression was roughly .2"

The 3 shots gave me a 2 1/2" group at 100yds which I thought was reasonable for my first group.
I didn't chronograph so have no idea of velocity or consistency.

But here is my problem;
I had to run a patch through after every shot or else the next the next round wouldn't chamber. The patch came out incredibly dirty and the fouling seemed a bit "fibrous".
Is this normal?
What is the cause of this and how do I fix it?

Hardcast boolits sized .458 ? excess clearance up front making blowby crud in the chamber ? Uberti sposed to be using Pedersoli barrels ?- if yes then they like fat boolits - .460 is no problem and soften the alloy a bit .462 out of the mold works ok (at my place - Uberti 1876) I dont get any chambering problems with that combo and have very minimal neck to chamber clearance (about zero to a half thou) . Shooting similar load in a Italian sharps without incident but size it to .460 (barrel dimensions are a tad tighter) both these guns will shoot an uncleaned string of ten into a similar size group to yours - on a good day I might do a touch better - but its operator dependent .

[reloader4410]

winchester brass thinner, lube cookie, slug bore, soft bullet, will slug up better, felt wad , any one or all may help, happy trails

[Castaway]

I’ve heard Australia has a few sheep. See if you can get some mutton tallow and mix it with canning paraffin and bees wax, by weight at 2:2:1 proportions for a concoction known as Gato Feo #1 lube, a resurrected turn of the century Winchester lube and cited in a 1940’s NRA article. You’ll still have a lot of fouling but it should be “goopy” and wipe out easily. Will also clean easily when done shooting. Not all big bullets are equal, if the lube doesn’t solve the hard fouling issue, another bullet with more generous lube grooves may be in order. As mentioned previously, a softer bullet may be in order. If you can’t get a bullet with bigger grooves, and the lube above still doesn’t carry to the end of the barrel, as mentioned above, a lube cookie or lube saturated wool wad (back to those sheep) may get better results.

[Don McDowell]

If you have to run a lube cookie under a grease groove bullet, you need a different bullet with better lube grooves on it.

[country gent]

Sometimes adding compression will "clean up" a powders burn. Working up in charge weight and adding compression sometimes helps, and as has been said a good lube that keeps fouling soft. I use emmerts improved (beeswax, crisco, canloa oil and lanolin). Sometimes a blow tube adds enough moisture to help. Another thing that may help is to anneal your brass. Is your brass very dirty after firing? It my not be sealing the chamber letting fouling get back into the chamber.

[ascast]

i would lose the petroleum jelly. Instead mix 50'/50 beeswax and Crisco shorting (low sodium), more wax if hot. Or get some SPG or other recommended lube. Wet shooting works well. You can just use a mouthfull of water and straw to full the chamber/bore/ Keep your muzzle down. I would also go fatter softer bullet, more grooves, maybe a lube cookie under, with compression. Hopefully you can find some guys local to maybe get bullets to try. comment regarding brass are good thoughts as well. good luck

[GregLaROCHE]

The other day I shot twenty rounds of BP through my 47/70. No problems charging successive rounds. I was only plinking, so I can’t confirm accuracy, but I was using a grease cookie with lamb grease, bees wax, lanolin and a touch of castor oil.

[Gunlaker]

Depending on your bullet's nose shape this can be completely normal. A blow tube can solve it if you live in a place where the humidity is not too low. Otherwise you'll need to run at least 2 patches between shots. All of my loads will do the same as yours pretty much, nd I use Swiss powder, but wipe between shots.

It depends on exactly what you are trying to do with your rifle ( plinking, hunting, or extracting max accuracy ). For max accuracy, skip the lube cookie. Use a good lube. I don't know what commercial bp lubes are availalble in Australia, but here in Canada, I order DGL from America. It's better than any home made stuff I've messed with, and cheap. I buy 2 lbs and pan lube with it. It'll last a long time. If you can't get commercial lube, then find a recipie that uses lanolin.

Since you have a chronograph you should use it to help understand how fouling control affects accuracy at longer ranges. Try a blow tube while shooting over the chronograph, then try a set while wiping one patch between shots, then try two patches, and then three. You'll see that certain techniques will make the velocities a little higher and more consistent. This is just because the bullet isn't pushing so much crud down the bore each shot. Fouling management is one of the most important parts of getting these guns to shoot well. First is bullet fit, then fouling management, then powder charge tuning.

Chris.

[Silhouette]

Gentlemen, thank you for all the good advice.
I will keep experimenting.
I intend to buy a mold and cast my own, as I already cast for a couple of other guns. These ones were just there on the shelf while I was buying the rifle.
I'm going to soften the lube and increase the charge by a grain at a time. I will also try a different wad.

The end result I am looking for is a load that will bring down a 500m ram with reasonable accuracy.

Cheers.

[country gent]

I would recomend several bullets some mundane and a "standard" it a little more racy. 1st is the lyman style 510 grn govt bullet. A round nose that seems to work well. Cast in the .459-.460 range from 20-1 it seldom leaves a ram standing. 2nd is the 535 grn postell style bullet a good all around bullet. y 3rd bullet I have had excellent results with is From Bernie Rowles at Old West moulds it is the 550 grn silhouette bullet. A little more recoil but they really kick the rams around.

[indian joe]

If you have to run a lube cookie under a grease groove bullet, you need a different bullet with better lube grooves on it.

yes!
(told him that already but hope a more authoritive source might reinforce the message)

I think I would rather clean between shots than mess around with lube cookies - will do about anything I can to avoid the necessity for either, there are good molds out there !

[indian joe]

I would recomend several bullets some mundane and a "standard" it a little more racy. 1st is the lyman style 510 grn govt bullet. A round nose that seems to work well. Cast in the .459-.460 range from 20-1 it seldom leaves a ram standing. 2nd is the 535 grn postell style bullet a good all around bullet. y 3rd bullet I have had excellent results with is From Bernie Rowles at Old West moulds it is the 550 grn silhouette bullet. A little more recoil but they really kick the rams around.

The CBE 460-535 PB is (near as I can figure) their copy of the Postell that Country Gent recommends at no 2 - it has good lube carrying without being over done - shoots well -- the CBE postell (458-550 PB) is a different animal I have been there done that twice and could not get it to shoot unless I cleaned between shots - doesnt look a lot different but lube grooves are much smaller. $120 our money and cheap freight, its the best you will do for your money.

[Silhouette]

The CBE 460-535 PB is (near as I can figure) their copy of the Postell that Country Gent recommends at no 2 - it has good lube carrying without being over done - shoots well -- the CBE postell (458-550 PB) is a different animal I have been there done that twice and could not get it to shoot unless I cleaned between shots - doesnt look a lot different but lube grooves are much smaller. $120 our money and cheap freight, its the best you will do for your money.

The only thing that concerns me is that I've read the 20" twist in the Ubertis doesn't stabilise bullets much heavier than 500gns.
But I know David from CBE and he might be able to shorten it to reduce the weight.

Will keep you all posted with results.

[country gent]

All of my 45 caliber rifles are 1-18 twist so yes 1-20 may not stabilize them.

[Don McDowell]

The only thing that concerns me is that I've read the 20" twist in the Ubertis doesn't stabilise bullets much heavier than 500gns.
But I know David from CBE and he might be able to shorten it to reduce the weight.

Will keep you all posted with results.

The length is the thing to watch, not necessarily the weight.
1-20 twist keeping the bullet length to 1.4 or 1.42 at the max should give reasonable stability, providing you get the powder charge/velocity up to 1200 fps or there about.

[Thundermaker]

i would lose the petroleum jelly. Instead mix 50'/50 beeswax and Crisco shorting (low sodium), more wax if hot. Or get some SPG or other recommended lube. Wet shooting works well. You can just use a mouthfull of water and straw to full the chamber/bore/ Keep your muzzle down. I would also go fatter softer bullet, more grooves, maybe a lube cookie under, with compression. Hopefully you can find some guys local to maybe get bullets to try. comment regarding brass are good thoughts as well. good luck

This is probably the best advice so far. The OP stated that he couldn't even chamber a subsequent round without wiping the bore. That's a lube problem. Petroleum products shouldn't be anywhere near a black powder gun.

There are a lot of black powder competition shooters here (I'm not a competitive BPCR shooter), and they all have their own preferred lube recipes. You'll notice that none of them contain Vaseline.

I second the 50/50 beeswax and unsalted Crisco. I use it on all my black powder bullets. It keeps my revolvers running all day, and the last shot is as accurate as the first. At the very least, it'll give you a starting point.

There are a lot of black powder competition shooters here (I'm not a competitive BPCR shooter), and they all have their own preferred lube recipes. You'll notice that none of them contain Vaseline.

[indian joe]

The only thing that concerns me is that I've read the 20" twist in the Ubertis doesn't stabilise bullets much heavier than 500gns.
But I know David from CBE and he might be able to shorten it to reduce the weight.

Will keep you all posted with results.

My 45/75 (Uberti 20" twist) handled the 535 grain ok at 100yards but I regrouped

I had David do that for me - three lube grooves instead of four, the boolit weighs right around 466 grains.

Heres ten at 100yards no cleaning
The low shot is first up cold clean barrel - its an 1876 Uberti Lever - decent vernier tang sights - old eyes - blow tube and shot slow to control barrel heating (a problem with this gun and many levers walking up the target as the barrel heats in relation to the magazine tube - maybe forend contact too) I think this gun ammo combo is capable of about half what you see here but the operator is a little inconsistent - its in there - just cant quite get it out
297562

[indian joe]

The length is the thing to watch, not necessarily the weight.
1-20 twist keeping the bullet length to 1.4 or 1.42 at the max should give reasonable stability, providing you get the powder charge/velocity up to 1200 fps or there about.

The 535 version of that CBE measures 1.440 - might be struggling to get 1200FPS out of it in a 45/70 case ? I doubt you would even get close with wano powder - unless he can hang two lube grooves out of the case and still chamber it ok ?

[Don McDowell]

Joe 65 - 70 grains should get awfully close to 1200 FPS


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[Lead pot]

I have to respond to the use of Vaseline in bullet lube. :D

People that say never use Vaseline for a black powder lube. It has been used for bullet lube shortly after it was invented back in 1870 before smokeless powder came around. Even the old NRA bullet lube was with a mix of Vaseline. Look through the old BPCR History books from the late 1800rds and beyond through the years you will see it mentioned often.
I been using it straight for muzzleloader patch lube since the mid 50's and I still use it straight for patch lube because it lets me shoot a 30 shot match without ever having to clean the bore and I can push the ball down my 42" barrel with out having to pound it down like some do after only 5 shots fired.
I use a mix of vaseline, Soy wax or Ozokerite Wax, Look that wax up once, and either coco butter or peanut oil. I used it for PP bullets with a lube wad and clean up is not a problem.
Using vaseline in my lube mix has never failed me with temperatures above 100º of below zero.

So pin my ears back from what I put down here :D

Silhouette,

I think your problem not being able to chamber a round probably is fouling control or the bullet deformed loading it in the case, I don't know if you compress the powder using the bullet so I cant say if that is it. Or your bullet is seated out too far where the driving band hits the throat too hard.

[Don McDowell]

There are many lube recipes from back in the day that use various petroleum products ranging from oil dag, to cylinder oil to Vaseline in combination with a wide variety of waxes


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[Thundermaker]

Well, Lead pot, looks like I have an experiment to do.

[Silhouette]

Silhouette,

I think your problem not being able to chamber a round probably is fouling control or the bullet deformed loading it in the case, I don't know if you compress the powder using the bullet so I cant say if that is it. Or your bullet is seated out too far where the driving band hits the throat too hard.

I'm confident that the bullet is not getting deformed. I don't use the bullet to compress. I determined the seating depth with a dummy round by starting long and seating a few thou at a time until I could push the round in easily with my thumb.
Perhaps I should seat a bit deeper to allow room for a little bit of fouling in the throat?

I won't get to do any more shooting before the weekend now but will make up some more test loads in the meantime.

[indian joe]

Joe 65 - 70 grains should get awfully close to 1200 FPS


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I always reckoned wano grain for grain (note weight NOT volume) is chrono about 100 weaker than Goex - if the wano is denser and he can get a few more grains in - maybe - agree 70 grains should likely do it.

[Don McDowell]

Joe I haven't shot any Wano, but the red can Goex is screened to a larger size than Swiss and a bit larger than Schuetzen. I don't have the notes handy from when I choreographed a number of different powders, but it sticks in my head that 70 grains of 2f Goex gave a 535 gr bullet the velocity of 1190 avg of 5 shots.
My guess is somewhere north of 65 grains that Wano will probably clean up on the fouling, and adding a jigger of jojoba oil to the beeswax/petroleum jelly recipe will help a bunch in keeping the fouling softer.

[Gunlaker]

Don the Wano/Schuetzen powder is really slow stuff. In my .45-2.4" Borchardt FFg Schuetzen gave nearly 100 fps less than Swiss 1.5 for similar powder charges. It shot well for 200 yard practice. Terrible velocity SD so I wouldn't want to shoot it at long range. But maybe it needed a ton more compression or something.

My first black powder rifle was an old Pedersoli Sharps that I'm pretty sure was a 1:20 twist. It shot a 535gr Postell style bullet bullet not too badly with Goex FFg.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris, Cartridge was a slow powder and without enough compression it shoots horribly dirty. Get the compression right it's still on the slow side but shoots clean and quite accurately. It is a great powder in the 50x2 or so it has been the best in the one rifle I've spent some time working with so chambered.
So I'm thinking that Wano may be the same way. Mash the snot out of it and see if it comes alive?
The original postel came about as a result of military teams looking to make fine scores at long distance with trapdoors etc, and unless they had the armorer messing around with barrels, those would of been mostly 20 or possibly 22 twists.

[Yellowhouse]

You could always dry brush the chamber to help in loading another round. Speaking of, if you shoot wet I'd think you'd at least want to dry that chamber.

[GregLaROCHE]

As I see it, the boolit’s grease groves have enough grease to lube the boolit and most of the grease cookie is left behind to soften burnt powder residue to make it easier to load the next round and may help improving accuracy a bit. If others disagree, please let me know your opinion.

[Castaway]

For my two cents worth, if the bullet carries sufficient lube, a grease cookie is not only redundant, but used at the expense of more powder

[Gunlaker]

So I'm thinking that Wano may be the same way. Mash the snot out of it and see if it comes alive?


That's what I'd try if I used it again. Unless I have no access to Swiss or OE, I don't plan on buying it again though. I bought a couple pounds a few years ago and ran it through my Borchardt just because I was curious about the stuff.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris we ran some Schuetzen 2f during the time after they quit Express and started up OE. It worked well in the 45-70's with 65 grains and a .030 fiber wad, under the RCBS 530 gr bullet. That was just enough in the case to just barely set the wad into, and let the bullet seat out to the driving band. The big problem with that bullet is the 3 lube grooves it starts to fall apart past 800 from a 45-70.

[indian joe]

For my two cents worth, if the bullet carries sufficient lube, a grease cookie is not only redundant, but used at the expense of more powder

yup! and a messy PITA to boot

[indian joe]

As I see it, the boolit’s grease groves have enough grease to lube the boolit and most of the grease cookie is left behind to soften burnt powder residue to make it easier to load the next round and may help improving accuracy a bit. If others disagree, please let me know your opinion.

Greg
I detest lube cookies - (no secret I think we are allowed to have differences of opinion) - the purpose they serve is to compensate for a boolit design that is deficient in the lube groove area - for black powder shooting -

There are a lot of molds out there that cast a boolit that is fine for smokeless yet will not cut it using blackpowder - I bet proportionally there is more black shot now in these "old fashioned" calibers than when many of those molds were designed and first cut so this 'deficiency' is understandable.

Are there issues with compression/deformation at liftoff due to the lube grooves in some boolits?
thats above my paygrade but it would not surprise me at all with the likes of mav dutchman design

Don re the Wano - my experience similar to Chris - velocity minus 100FPS - I started out with muzzleloaders and 5 lb of Aussie made "Musket brand" powder - that ran out I got a couple tins of red can Goex -- the wano man was coming to a major shoot, I called him, went to the shoot (all our club was using it) I got lucky he had decamped early and only left me one kilo bottle of FFFg (I was pissed off at the time but forgave him when I tried the stuff) - that was enough to send me off scouring the countryside for those red and white cans, I checked out every shop within a two hundred mile radius and bought every can of Goex I could find, later a mate from another club made a deal with the fireworks manufacturer where he would buy a 50lb pack of 5FA Goex (ungraphited) paper sack with two 25lb bags inside - he would take one for his club I took the other, leaked a bit of it out to club members but I build a decent stash too - had it squirreled away all round the farm - still have 5 kg of that 5FA (my rainy day stash - this is early 1990's - pre the Moosic plant blowing). That grade is a bit lively for these bigger cartridges but it shot ok.

I never shot enough Wano to really test the level of compression - maybe like you say, lean on it enough it might wake up. For sure there are more variables with blackpowder than there are constants.

[indian joe]

Chris we ran some Schuetzen 2f during the time after they quit Express and started up OE. It worked well in the 45-70's with 65 grains and a .030 fiber wad, under the RCBS 530 gr bullet. That was just enough in the case to just barely set the wad into, and let the bullet seat out to the driving band. The big problem with that bullet is the 3 lube grooves it starts to fall apart past 800 from a 45-70.

Don ---"fall apart" whats going on there ? drag on the lube grooves ? gets the wobbles from lack of speed? distortion at the rear end ? interested in your take here !

[Don McDowell]

Joe the 3 large lube grooves would be less aerodynamic than the same bullet profile with 4 or 5. So as the range gets farther and the bullet slows down it starts to loose stability.
Interestly enough put that same RCBS bullet in a 110 and it will shoot to 1000 rather nicely.

[indian joe]

Joe the 3 large lube grooves would be less aerodynamic than the same bullet profile with 4 or 5. So as the range gets farther and the bullet slows down it starts to loose stability.
Interestly enough put that same RCBS bullet in a 110 and it will shoot to 1000 rather nicely.

thanks!!!!

[Silhouette]

So today I tried a couple of different charge weights, up to 66gns.
Accuracy is good at around 1.3" for 3 shots at 100yds.
The excessive fouling still remains the same and prevents me from chambering a second cartridge. Even with 20% Crisco added to the lube mix.
I should have taken a pic of the patches but didn't think of it while at he range. Admittedly I am very green with regards to black powder but I expected very black patches, not a mass of residue being pushed out in front of the patch.

Thoughts?

[indian joe]

So today I tried a couple of different charge weights, up to 66gns.
Accuracy is good at around 1.3" for 3 shots at 100yds.
The excessive fouling still remains the same and prevents me from chambering a second cartridge. Even with 20% Crisco added to the lube mix.
I should have taken a pic of the patches but didn't think of it while at he range. Admittedly I am very green with regards to black powder but I expected very black patches, not a mass of residue being pushed out in front of the patch.

Thoughts?

I used up all my good ideas - am inclined to blame the Wano powder
If you can hold that 1.3" group for a longer string of shots - cleaning each shot might be not such a chore?
Do you wanna pm me your address I can send a handful of those CBE boolits and some HDPE wads to try ?
What part of QLD? Bad Ass Wallace might help you out if you not too far away from him to visit.

[greenjoytj]

Anneal the cartridge case necks, to better seal against fouling blow back.
Dry brush the chamber particularly were the bullet will be, to sweep the crud out of the way.
Duplex your Wano powder charge with just one or two grains of a medium burn rate pistol powder, makes more gas and heat.
Use a Magnum primer to make more heat to burn more throughly the charcoal in the Wano powder, same for the duplex loading more heat in your heat engine.

[indian joe]

Anneal the cartridge case necks, to better seal against fouling blow back.
Dry brush the chamber particularly were the bullet will be, to sweep the crud out of the way.
Duplex your Wano powder charge with just one or two grains of a medium burn rate pistol powder, makes mor gas an heat.
Use a Magnum primer to make more heat to burn more throughly the charcoal in the Wano powder, same for the duplex loading more heat in your heat engine.

Duplex will work but its not legal in competitions - downunder anyway - if a second round will not chamber there is something basic screwed up that needs figuring out -

there is no alternative to the Wano powder so changing that is out

the boolits are suspect even though he is getting good grouping - what is suspect ? hard cast - proly deficient in amount of lube

neck anneal ? sure - thats a good idea 99/100.

dont neck size the brass unless it wont chamber in a clean gun - just need some crimp to stop the boolit falling out

a single cereal box wad ? I would change that up to something more solid - tablet backing at the least - (I am using HDPE poly wads to good effect - cut em .460 so they a tight fit in case neck and bore - thats a crud scraper and gas check right there.)

If ole mate Wallace is within range I would organise a visit - that bloke knows his stuff and got some nice gear to drool over as well.

[Lead pot]

Duplex will work but its not legal in competitions - downunder anyway - if a second round will not chamber there is something basic screwed up that needs figuring out -

there is no alternative to the Wano powder so changing that is out

the boolits are suspect even though he is getting good grouping - what is suspect ? hard cast - proly deficient in amount of lube

neck anneal ? sure - thats a good idea 99/100.

dont neck size the brass unless it wont chamber in a clean gun - just need some crimp to stop the boolit falling out

a single cereal box wad ? I would change that up to something more solid - tablet backing at the least - (I am using HDPE poly wads to good effect - cut em .460 so they a tight fit in case neck and bore - thats a crud scraper and gas check right there.)

If ole mate Wallace is within range I would organise a visit - that bloke knows his stuff and got some nice gear to drool over as well.


Nah Joe, this is a scrapper wad.
When the fire is lit the wad expands and it cleans the fouling :D

297822

[indian joe]

Nah Joe, this is a scrapper wad.
When the fire is lit the wad expands and it cleans the fouling :D

297822

whatareyadoin to me ? they got a hole in the middle!
all the gas is gonna sqirt through there an proly drill a hole thru da boolit

- ole timey washers for the close over end of copper rivets used in harness making and leather drive belts on old machinery -
would be handy if ya told me where ya buy these - they unobtainium where I shop!

[Lead pot]

You punch them out with a die like a press mounted wad punch.
Or you might check with Corbin swage they might still offer them.
They are called base guards.
They have been in use since the 1800rds


They are designed to be swaged on the pure lead pistol bullet base and can be shot at 800 fps without lube.
297846

[indian joe]

You punch them out with a die like a press mounted wad punch.
Or you might check with Corbin swage they might still offer them.
They are called base guards.
They have been in use since the 1800rds


They are designed to be swaged on the pure lead pistol bullet base and can be shot at 800 fps without lube.
297846

Ha! got me! eyes are playin tricks! that lil dimple sure as heck looked like a hole! No wonder the bullseye is gettin harder to hit eh!
so a gascheck without the cup sides ? kinda?

[Silhouette]

I've been full length sizing every time. Should I only be sizing when they start getting tight?
This morning I annealed all my empties so will see how that goes. Also read somewhere that the greater the charge, the cleaner the burn so I might try a bit more powder.

Might as well try different wads as suggested.

I'm very reluctant to use duplex loads. I've heard some horror stories about them and I'm not yet experienced enough with black powder. Duplex loads in theory sound like they may fix the problem, but plenty of blokes get by without having to do this and I kinda want to get to the root of the problem. Plus as Indian Joe says, not allowed in comps.

Stay tuned for further results.

[hawkenhunter50]

This has been an informative read. Lots of good ideas.

Something I think I would try would be seat the bullet just a little deeper. If your accuracy stays good and you can chamber your next round without any cleaning, it seems you would have the results you're after without too much trouble. I have had rounds that worked perfectly when I cleaned every shot, but if I got in a hurry and tried shooting 2 or 3 without cleaning they were much harder to chamber.

May not solve the real problem whether it be lube issue etc, but if your main goal is to shoot again without cleaning, I bet this would work.

I was new to BPCR last year and kind of had the same idea of shooting my stage without cleaning, but a few old timers who helped me along the way said absolutely not. They demanded I wipe between each shot so that is what I did. You mention hitting rams and not hunting so maybe if everything you have is working for you except shooting without cleaning, maybe just resort to wiping each shot. It isn't as big a deal as it seems at first.

I was worried I wouldn't have time for all that and still get off 10 shots, but from my 1st match I have been able to get off all 10 with time to spare.

1 other thought I don't think you've mentioned, when you do wipe, does the fouling feel like its caked on or is relatively easy to wipe out? If it cleans out easy I'd say your lube is ok. If it feels like its burnt onto the bore then it may be time to tinker with the lube recipe. Like Country Gent mentioned above, I also use Emmert's Improved and really like it.

Whichever way you go, best of luck. It's been cool hearing all the good ideas and suggestions.

[indian joe]

I've been full length sizing every time. Should I only be sizing when they start getting tight?

If they chamber ok leave em alone - when they get a bit tight resize only enough that they chamber ok

This morning I annealed all my empties so will see how that goes. Also read somewhere that the greater the charge, the cleaner the burn so I might try a bit more powder.
Not full length sizing will help that along too

Might as well try different wads as suggested.

I'm very reluctant to use duplex loads. I've heard some horror stories about them and I'm not yet experienced enough with black powder.

the horror stories likely have two sources 1) people that never done it 2) idiots that dont follow the rules
duplex is simple and effective when its done right
whats the rules ? heres mine - others will have a different set, thats ok
* not for use in low strength antique guns (I duplex an original 1892 and a repro 1886 - your 1885 would be fine - my brass 1866 NO) Duplex loads get me about 100fps velocity increase - I dont have a way to check pressure but am a firm believer in "no such thing as a free lunch'
* medium burn rate powder only 4227 is ideal, ar2205 (supposedly the same powder in a different can)sr4759 works - do not use stuff like red dot and bullseye.
*maximum smokeless is 10% of the total charge
*smokeless goes on the primer first then the black on top
*normal Blackpowder compression works ok

That said I dont think Duplex loading is the answer to this particular puzzle
I kinda want to get to the root of the problem. Plus as Indian Joe says, not allowed in comps.

Stay tuned for further results.





......

[Gunlaker]

Don't bother full length sizing each time. If you want to size them, back the die out 3 turns and partially size them. All of my rifles shoot very well that way, with minimal neck tension ( 0.001" ). In silhouette you'll have lots of time to wipe if you are organised. I wipe two damp patches between shots. I don't bother drying the chamber between shots in .40-65 or .45-70, but I do with the longer cases. Just use a patch that is not too wet.

Are you using a drop tube and a compression die? If it were me, I'd want to get lots of that Wano in the case to get the velocity up. I'd try drop tubing and then compressing 0.275 -> 0.3" or so and see how it shoots. The key is to get the tightest vertical possible at the turkey and ram line. Then learn to read the wind and mirage for the horizontal.

Chris.

[Silhouette]

I use a drop tube and a compression plug for my neck expander die.
How much compression is too much? I have to seat the bullet a minimum of .725" to be able to chamber and 66gns feels like a lot of compression.

Hawkenhunter50, it is easily wiped out and doesn't feel rough or caked in there.
When I get this sorted I'll probably be patching between shots anyway, but something is not right and I just have to know what.

[country gent]

To measure compression I drop the charge in the case and hand seat the wad on top of it till it touches firm measure down from the case mith to it and then compress to depth measure again and thats the compression. I also use a drop tube with a slow and compression plug.

When I was using Goex compression was around .250 wano may take even a little more.

I would also consider trying different primers one may ignite better than others. I have seen pictures of just primers being fired and some have a "cloud" of white hot particles in them while other are a jet of flame with few of the particles.

[indian joe]

Compression - just for fun
took a fired FL resized 45/70 case, drop tubed 66.5 grains of Goex 5FA (Wano is a tad denser from memory but almost nothing in it) insert 45 thou HDPE wad to top of powder - measured .250 case mouth to wad - compressed another .250 with my single stage super simplex press until measured .500 to top of wad - effort required was 35 pound at the knob end of the press handle (I measure that with a luggage scale) so that is enough to seat the CBE 535 grain boolit with one lube groove exposed. I consider this reasonably heavy compression but not excessive - at that point the powder is quite compacted - to get the further 1/8' or so we need to seat the boolit with all grooves in the case would need at least double the effort on the press handle - (you would not notice that with a compound lever press - just hear the powder going "scrunch" in the case and maybe a bit of a squeak)
This test pretty much fits with Country Gents experience of .250 compression - fireformed cases might gain a couple grains depending on the cut of the chamber.

[Silhouette]

I loaded and firedcouple at 68gns yesterday at home (I live on acreage) and the annealed cases came out remarkably clean, which indicates good expansion. The second round still could not be chambered.
Looking up the barrel, I think what is happening is the "loose" fouling is falling back into the chamber as I eject the case.

Trying to attach a pic of the patch and the loose stuff that fell out of the muzzle in front of the patch.

[Silhouette]

297942

[Don McDowell]

More powde might help but it looks like your lube is still pretty hard

[country gent]

That looks very dry and crusty Compared to what I get. It should be soft and grease like.

I would try mixing up some Emmerts improved and try it.

Emmerts improved
40% beeswax
50% unsalted crisco (vegtable shortening)
5% lanolin
5% canola or olive oil
I usually mix this in 2 lb batches
I also add 2 small drops of murphies oil soap, it helps to blend the ingredients
If you want to distract everyone on the range substitute rendered bacon grease for the crisco lol

[indian joe]

This makes three of us on the lube thing
mine is real simple -------Beeswax and neatsfoot oil 50/50 for summer 40/60 for winter, or some variation of that theme, just so its firm enough to stay put but greasy enough to do the job - you want to be able to smear it in the lube grooves with your finger and have it stay there.

[Castaway]

Something no one’s mentioned, but have you checked the trim length of your brass. Have you determined if it’s the bullet or brass is bumping into the fouling and preventing chambering? Not saying it’s the reason, but a possible contributor, along with the lube issue mentioned many times previously.

[Silhouette]

Sounds like we may be getting somewhere. I just picked up another kg of beeswax to start fresh. What I have left all has various quantities of Vaseline and Canola oil.

I already have Neatsfoot oil so I'll try a bit with that and also Emmerts as suggested.

Brass length has been checked and is correct.

I do appreciate everyone's input. Hopefully I will get the chance to fire a few this weekend and will let you know what happens.

[dave roelle]

Old Dead Guys Lube = 45% mutton tallow----45% beeswax-----10% pure lanolin

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Wipe between shoots. The National Champions do. And quit chasing your tail on bullet lube.

The big Guns are in Phoenix this next 7 days shooting BPTR in hot dry Arizona. Trust me they don’t worry about lube they watch the conditions and wipe between shoots.

The amount of bandwidth wasted here on this topic is hysterical.

Kenny Wasserburger

[indian joe]

Wipe between shoots. The National Champions do. And quit chasing your tail on bullet lube.

The big Guns are in Phoenix this next 7 days shooting BPTR in hot dry Arizona. Trust me they don’t worry about lube they watch the conditions and wipe between shoots.

The amount of bandwidth wasted here on this topic is hysterical.

Kenny Wasserburger

so just because you is one of "the big guns" you get to insult the little blokes ? thanks a bunch
wipe between shots is boring
bandwidth is no more wasted on this than on any other subject

[Bent Ramrod]

With all due respect, Kenny is making a point, albeit in his usual crusty-but-lovable manner.

Unless I zoned out in the course of reading this thread and missed it, nowhere in this screed is any mention of anything the OP actually did about the black powder fouling, except notice it and its bad effect on chambering the next round.

Silhouette, lube only goes as far as mixing with the fouling to form a sort of soap. Moisture needs to be added then, to soften the soapy material. Get a blow tube and try up to 8 full breaths down the barrel. Somewhere in the course of this exercise, a dry patch pushed through the bore will come out looking like it’s covered with black grease. (If you still see those black splinters and fibers, you’re not there yet.). When that point is reached, your next round will chamber. If you extract it, it should show a slight rifling imprint and a ring of black grease, which doesn’t impede chambering, but is still very much there, all the way to the muzzle.

Usually, satisfactory shooting can be done with blowtubing, although it’s still possible to “foul out” if the humidity is too low, the powder is not to the barrel’s liking or the charge is too heavy or otherwise wrongly loaded. But I do it if I’m using grease groove boolits, because it’s easier than wiping. All the “Big Guns” down here at the TRC (and they are Big; in any company) use grease groove boolits and wipe between shots. If I have to wipe, I use paper patch boolits, because it’s Period and Cool.

Early on, I tried to get away with shooting black powder like I was shooting smokeless, even to the extent of trying to make a water-in-oil emulsion lube. The oil matrix would keep the water droplets dispersed, so they wouldn’t get the powder wet, the vegetable oil and beeswax emulsion would soften the fouling like other BP lubes do, and the alkaline combustion products would break the emulsion, free the water, soften the soapy mess to a moist grease, and allow an arbitrary number of shots without any further management until it was time to clean up at the end.

As COL Patterson would say, “in point of fact, it didn’t work, but it was a very good idea, nonetheless.”

[Gunlaker]

Kenny has never been one to mince words :-). He is a guy worth paying attention to. Having shot with him on a few occasions I can tell you that he is a really good guy who has helped a lot of people get better at shooting these rifles.

Wiping is really what most of us need to be doing. Some get by with a blow tube on silhouettes and shoot master class scores, but in the dry places, and especially at long range, almost no one does anything but wipe. Sometimes as much as 5 damp patches between shots. Good bore pigs/wipers (I've only used the BACO ones ) can also work very very well.

The only thing I'd suggest is for people to try their favorite fouling management routine and shoot 15 rounds over a chronograph and compare the ES/SD with 15 rounds shot while wiping 3 damp patches. It's an eye opener. With that said, some of the best ES/SD numbers I've ever seen have been from Dan Theodore's experiments while blow tubing. But he developed his routine ( and lube ) over a chronograph.

Chris.

[Silhouette]

Watching YouTube videos may have given me the wrong impression. I've seen a few blokes fire multiple shots without wiping or blowing, which makes me wonder why I can't do the same and that perhaps I'm doing something wrong.

I mixed up some more lube as recommended, and yesterday afternoon I had a couple of shots at home. The following round could not quite be fully seated in but has gone a long way compared to my first attempts at the beginning of this thread.
Putting mouth to breech and a couple of blows, it went in no problem. The patch came out greasy instead of crusty as Country Gent said.
I'm pretty happy with that and now I think I'll just load up and enjoy shooting.

To some this this thread might seem like a hysterical waste of bandwidth, but for the beginner I am, it's a wealth of information and a fix for my problem. After all, isn't that what forums are all about?

Thanks for everyone's contributions.

[Gunlaker]

You can definitely make ammo where you can shoot many rounds in a row without fouling control, you just will have to give up some accuracy.

I used to have a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt and could shoot black powder in it all day long without fouling control. But it was just for plinking. They key was to seat the bullet deep enough in the case so that it wasn't too close to the rifling. Fouling will build up to a point, but the bullets will push it out enough to keep shooting. Just not with the max possible accuracy.

A friend shoots an original Trapdoor with no fouling control in matches. It's rifling seems to be better than modern barrels for not holding on to fouling. It shoots pretty well, but again, not quite as accurate as a modern BPCR with fouling control.

Several years ago Lee Shaver's magazine, The Single Shot Exchange, published a reprint of an old article and a letter on "shooting dirty". The original article was from the late 1800's so in the "original black powder days". One person was adamant that "shooting dirty" was completely possible, and the other guy was equally adamant that it couldn't be done. It reminded me of all of the threads I've read here over the years. Even the people from the old days didn't agree :-)

Chris.

[M-Tecs]

If I remember correctly it was Winchester that had an old ad/article about firing an 1873 with blackpowder for a 30 shot group under 4” at 100yards shots without cleaning/blow tube. I did some searching and I can not find it. If someone has the link please post it.

Match winning accuracy fouling control and hunting or self-defense/military fouling control are somewhat different.

Posts #9 & #17 are very interesting. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?432687-Black-powder-quality-then-and-now

[M-Tecs]

Some more good info here https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey&highlight=soft+fouling+black+powder

[M-Tecs]

One item no one has mentioned is the use of cartridge seating tools. They are common with Sharps and Hi Wall shooters using BP.

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7915

https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28403&sid=0f3fbb48d3e7c8ae9ad83605fe843728

[Kenny Wasserburger]

so just because you is one of "the big guns" you get to insult the little blokes ? thanks a bunch
wipe between shots is boring
bandwidth is no more wasted on this than on any other subject

Accuracy is never boring, mediocre shooting is.

World record groups are definitely not boring nor National Championships.

Some do, others set around blow gas. And get po when someone points out the obvious.

I now know what camp you set in.

I despise those that lack the testicular mass to use their real name, zero respect for those individuals.

I would rather spend time learning how to read conditions, then screw about with lube.

Kenny Wasserburger

Ps Indian feller I wasn’t addressing you, but since I triggered a reply from you, I gave you a personal reply back.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Bent Ramrod;5378766]With all due respect, Kenny is making a point, albeit in his usual crusty-but-lovable manner.

I am well aware of Kennys credentials in long range and salute that
If this is his normal manner of communicating then my reply should not bother him at all (hand em out ya gonna get some back on occasion)
I dont think apologies are required from either of us at this point.
joe

ps no call to follow up and be a proper a###ole either though

[indian joe]

Kenny has never been one to mince words :-). He is a guy worth paying attention to. Having shot with him on a few occasions I can tell you that he is a really good guy who has helped a lot of people get better at shooting these rifles.

Wiping is really what most of us need to be doing. Some get by with a blow tube on silhouettes and shoot master class scores, but in the dry places, and especially at long range, almost no one does anything but wipe. Sometimes as much as 5 damp patches between shots. Good bore pigs/wipers (I've only used the BACO ones ) can also work very very well.

The only thing I'd suggest is for people to try their favorite fouling management routine and shoot 15 rounds over a chronograph and compare the ES/SD with 15 rounds shot while wiping 3 damp patches. It's an eye opener. With that said, some of the best ES/SD numbers I've ever seen have been from Dan Theodore's experiments while blow tubing. But he developed his routine ( and lube ) over a chronograph.

Chris.

I've done ten shot strings with ES under 10FPS enough times to convince me that it is working
Never gonna shoot a 1000yard match where we live - 500 - 600 a couple times a year
My goal from the start was to do the very best I can shooting a decent string with a grease boolit and no clean between shots. If thats a problem to someone else I really dont care - I have got it to the point where my load and fouling management leaves my 73 yr old eyes as the limiting factor.
Posted a target (post 22) for all to see - nothing spectacular but not so bad for an old guy with a cowboy gun either. If Kenny wanted to pick that apart he might come to the same conclusion as me - a couple nice little clusters in there telling the story that my non repeatable sight picture has about doubled that group size.
joe

[Gunlaker]

Joe, that is a fine target for a levergun at 100 with no fouling control. I know what you mean about the sight picture. If the light is good I can shoot apertures as well as I can a low power scope, but in anything less than ideal light I sure like my MVA scopes!

Chris.

[indian joe]

Joe, that is a fine target for a levergun at 100 with no fouling control. I know what you mean about the sight picture. If the light is good I can shoot apertures as well as I can a low power scope, but in anything less than ideal light I sure like my MVA scopes!

Chris.

thanks!!

[Dave T]

If I remember correctly it was Winchester that had an old ad/article about firing an 1873 with blackpowder for a 30 shot group under 4” at 100yards shots without cleaning/blow tube.

M-Tecs,

I remember seeing the add, or the article it was in. Sorry but I don't remember where either. Just wanted to back you up on see it somewhere. (smile)

Dave

[rjmelehan]

You could always dry brush the chamber to help in loading another round. Speaking of, if you shoot wet I'd think you'd at least want to dry that chamber.

Excellent point.. One which I was going to make until I read it first.
A wet chamber will not grab the cartridge and subsequently seal the chamber.
Consequently pressures will be inconsistent and accuracy will suffer.
The same holds true if your bullet is undersized or alloy too hard for BP to obturate the bullet base if at groove or smaller.

Paul Matthews wrote 4 small books on BPCR.
They are the best place to start before you load another round.

"Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge"
"Cast Bullets for the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle"
"Shooting the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle"
"How -To's for the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle"

These books cover everything from lube formulas, bullet design / fit, blow tube techniques etc., etc, etc.
Great reading.

Because, as you know, there are so many variables it is difficult to know which
common denominators should be adhered to, to serve as a baseline.
And to make matters more complicated everyone has their own experiences which they believe
is the holy grail.

I have a friend who has a collection of actual antiques and or period correct rifles that could start a museum.
He does not have the time or inclination to do load development so he sends me a rifle now and then to work up a load. A practice I truly enjoy.

After determining things like twist and chamber dimensions from a chamber cast I have a good starting point.
I've ordered custom moulds from a few quality mould makers like Steve Brooks to match the specific rifle.
Even after doing this, sometimes without success mind you, I've turned to other moulds I have in inventory which I didn't think would work and to my surprise they turned out to be 1 MOA combinations.

I mention this because there is no reason to be discouraged. One Mould may work in one 45-70 and not another. It's best to mess with only one variable at a time, otherwise you will never know what it working and what doesn't help improve accuracy.

BTW, I have and enjoy a Uberti Hi Wall in 45-70.
The first thing I did to it 20 plus years ago was to change the butt stock. For me that crescent shape was a punisher. It now has a shotgun style stock with a recoil friendly pad.

Consistency is probably more important in BPCR reloading and shooting than in high velocity shooting disciplines, although benchrest, long range guys will beg to differ.

The following is the MOST Important part of the sport;
Have fun, keep good notes, have more fun...

Bob

[rjmelehan]

As I see it, the boolit’s grease groves have enough grease to lube the boolit and most of the grease cookie is left behind to soften burnt powder residue to make it easier to load the next round and may help improving accuracy a bit. If others disagree, please let me know your opinion.

Greg,
That's my take...
The lube on a bullet is to keep that bullet from leading the barrel.
A lube cookie is to keep the fowling soft so the next bullet doesn't get scored by hardened crud.
Together with a blow tube, a lube cookie works for me. After 20 rounds I can still push a damp patch wrapped around a nylon brush down the bore with ease.

Of course wiping between shots is probably the best way to get consistent barrel conditions.

[rjmelehan]

This makes three of us on the lube thing
mine is real simple -------Beeswax and neatsfoot oil 50/50 for summer 40/60 for winter, or some variation of that theme, just so its firm enough to stay put but greasy enough to do the job - you want to be able to smear it in the lube grooves with your finger and have it stay there.

That is a formula that Paul Matthews suggests. I've used it for years.

[rjmelehan]

it's a wealth of information and a fix for my problem. After all, isn't that what forums are all about?

YES...