Remington 7x57 Rolling Block, Conversion to 45-70?

[Sclearman]

Well hello first, since this is my first post. I've lurked here in the past but finally have a question and think this to be the place to ask it. I have a (Spanish?) Remington Rolling block in 7mm. The rifle appears to be all there except for possibly to top wood forearm piece. It was given to me by my father-in-law to hold on to and pass to my sons when they were older. At the time he also gave me most of a case of 7mm Mauser ammo for it. We haven't shot it, and have read that it may be a good idea not to.
All of that to say I would like to understand some options for it. First of all is there any great value on it in its current state? In other words should I not consider rechambering and refinishing?
If it would not destroy a collectable, or do great harm to the value, would rechambering to something like 45-70 be safe?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Welcome to the Castboolits Forum, Sclearman! Glad to have you aboard. The RRB--they are fairly easy to re-barrel to any of many different calibers, and .45-70 should work. In deference to its age I'd keep the pressures down, but if it handles 7mm it should handle .45-70. No, I don't believe you'd be destroying a valuable collectable, as many were made and collectors usually seek the specimens in very nice condition. Not having the rifle to examine, I don't know what your reluctance to fire it in the present 7mm chambering is based upon, but it is true that some of them have been reported to have excessive head space or out of spec chambers. We always enjoy seeing photos of project rifles.

DG

[koger]

You have what is referred to as a #5, military action, which is made of modern steel, not softer iron like the old #1's. I have heard all kinds of dont shoot them, and can honestly say that is bull. Precision Shooting had 2 articles which took this to task, and explained that the cracking of necks had nothing to do with headspace, issues. At the time these were built, the diameter of the 7mm was.285, bigger than the later standardized .284. As a result, the chamber neck had to be bigger to allow for the brass. When firing modern 7x57, your cases may expand more than necesarry, and as a result if reloading, you are working your brass too much. If handloading I anneal every time and dont have any problems. I have had 3 of them, shot a lot of factory and mil surp ammo with no issues. I am currently loading 168 gr RCBS with unique with good accuracy and no problems with the brass. If the ammo you had is mil surp, just be sure to clean the bore with Hoppes #9 after every shooting, since corrosive primers can ruin a bore. If you decide to rebarrel it to 45/70, you wont have any issues, that I can see, and the extractor can be easily altered to fit the new round. Hope this helps.

[Rich/WIS]

RE Hoppe's #9, have read somewhere that the formula has changed. The original was designed to clean residue for corrosive ammo but the new formula is designed for modern (read non-corrosive) ammunition. I don't know if that is true or not, but think it applies to most modern bore cleaners.

[Sclearman]

Welcome to the Castboolits Forum, Sclearman! Glad to have you aboard. The RRB--they are fairly easy to re-barrel to any of many different calibers, and .45-70 should work. In deference to its age I'd keep the pressures down, but if it handles 7mm it should handle .45-70. No, I don't believe you'd be destroying a valuable collectable, as many were made and collectors usually seek the specimens in very nice condition. Not having the rifle to examine, I don't know what your reluctance to fire it in the present 7mm chambering is based upon, but it is true that some of them have been reported to have excessive head space or out of spec chambers. We always enjoy seeing photos of project rifles.

DG

Well, just based on reading on the 'net. I've read the warnings about excessive head space.

So my first hurdle was to know about destroying the value by barreling it, and that looks not to be an issue. After that I guess my thoughts wonder to what should we do caliber wise. I'm not opposed to the 7x57 as it's a dandy round, but for this rifle I just consider what might be stuffed in it later. I've thought that a 45-70 would be good alternative. I don't reload yet and don't want to be forced to reload just to shoot. Finding factory ammo that is safe to use is very important. I have also thought about converting to 30-30 or a similar easy to find factory cartridge.

Overall plan for this rifle, if we do anything at all, is to kind of fancy it up from it's military look and maybe give it a 'cowboy' look. Decent wood stocks, octagon or half-octagon barrel, maybe a fancy forend tip.

Overall looking to make sure boys and later grandkids have a safe fun shooter they can use for punching paper or shooting a deer or hog.

[Sclearman]

And I guess I should add a lil more about me. I have a bit of a machine shop at the house, I'm not a machinist but I do some hobby work. I have a 12" Logan lathe, and 2 milling machines a 9x42 B'port clone and a round column 8x28. Along with that I have welders and grinders and various other metal working tools. In another part of the shop I also do woodworking. I've 'customized' a few Mauser bolt actions for the boys and me, refinished several guns and built a few muzzleloaders. Last Christmas all 3 boys got a 'rebuilt' 870 complete with ghost rings sights.

I plan to do all the work myself, with the exception of possibly having any receivers heat treated. (if needed)

[marlinman93]

These old 7mm Rolling Block military rifles don't have big collector value, and usually are worth much more when properly built into old style Sporting rifles in appropriate cartridges. The choice of .45-70 is a very good one that will make the gun even more desirable in the future. Another good choice would be .40-65, and might be easier for the young sons to shoot sooner.
I've done aa number of these building from old military actions, and it's pretty easy to keep the build cost less than the finished value if you're careful, and can do a fair amount of the work. I always pay someone to fit and chamber the barrel, and do color case work. But I do the rest of the work, and having a free receiver to start with will cut a major cost off the total. You should be able to keep the total under $1000 since you wont have the receiver cost to begin with.
Here's two I've built in recent years.

https://i.imgur.com/xpkA0fGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xONwkUnl.jpg

[RustyReel]

I would certainly shoot it a bit before deciding to rebarrel it, unless of course you want a 45/70 then let 'er rip. I wouldn't worry about what someone else would stuff into it later as 7x57 is the original caliber.

[RP3543]

You have what is referred to as a #5, military action, which is made of modern steel, not softer iron like the old #1's. I have heard all kinds of dont shoot them, and can honestly say that is bull. Precision Shooting had 2 articles which took this to task, and explained that the cracking of necks had nothing to do with headspace, issues. At the time these were built, the diameter of the 7mm was.285, bigger than the later standardized .284. As a result, the chamber neck had to be bigger to allow for the brass. When firing modern 7x57, your cases may expand more than necesarry, and as a result if reloading, you are working your brass too much. If handloading I anneal every time and dont have any problems. I have had 3 of them, shot a lot of factory and mil surp ammo with no issues. I am currently loading 168 gr RCBS with unique with good accuracy and no problems with the brass. If the ammo you had is mil surp, just be sure to clean the bore with Hoppes #9 after every shooting, since corrosive primers can ruin a bore. If you decide to rebarrel it to 45/70, you wont have any issues, that I can see, and the extractor can be easily altered to fit the new round. Hope this helps.

Mine has the "large diameter" issue. It's not a big deal but if you reload you'll want to anneal the necks every time. They'll crack and or separate at the neck/shoulder junction.

[john.k]

I d suggest you do check current value......there have been huge increases in prices paid for RBs in military condition.....for instance the 8x58 s are around $2000......up from $400 a couple of years ago.

[Sclearman]

Thanks for all the information. Lots to think about. I'll be looking at the rifle a bit and making a plan in the not too distant future

[hawkenhunter50]

These old 7mm Rolling Block military rifles don't have big collector value, and usually are worth much more when properly built into old style Sporting rifles in appropriate cartridges. The choice of .45-70 is a very good one that will make the gun even more desirable in the future. Another good choice would be .40-65, and might be easier for the young sons to shoot sooner.
I've done aa number of these building from old military actions, and it's pretty easy to keep the build cost less than the finished value if you're careful, and can do a fair amount of the work. I always pay someone to fit and chamber the barrel, and do color case work. But I do the rest of the work, and having a free receiver to start with will cut a major cost off the total. You should be able to keep the total under $1000 since you wont have the receiver cost to begin with.
Here's two I've built in recent years.

https://i.imgur.com/xpkA0fGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xONwkUnl.jpg

MM93,

It'd be interesting to hear a little bit about how you convert these. I have watched the Larry Potterfield videos of him turning one into a copy of Custer's rifle. Be curious of the steps you do. Whether it's more or less work. Thought about trying something similar but wouldn't have the means to thin the action and some of the other things I saw in the videos. Do you leave your military actions original thickness? Unfortunately I can never see any of the pictures in your posts.

[GregLaROCHE]

I agree you should first shoot it before making any decisions. If you’re not sure deciding yourself if it is safe to shoot in it’s current condition, letting a qualified gunsmith take a look at it is something to consider.

[John Taylor]

I convert at least a half dozen a year. Have three in the shop at this time with the last one going to 44-77. The 45-70 is no problem on the #1 or #5 action, factory ammo is loaded to black powder pressures ( about 28,000 psi). The #5 in 7x57 will take pressures closer to 50,000 psi. My own personal roller is in 38-55 only because I got tired of recoil. I have a spare barreled #5 action in 45-90 with 34" octagon barrel that is up for sale.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You mentioned .30-30 as a cartridge under consideration. This might prove an excellent choice. One of the most accurate rifles I've ever encountered (and one of the ugliest) was a RRB used by an old man at a gun club and range. It had a vertical palm rest secured to the rifle by duct tape around the barrel and a buttstock that was perhaps a semi-inlet that had been attached to the rifle but never finish shaped. He'd stand at the 100 yd. line and fire one off, then scoot back into the club house and reload that one cartridge, and return to shoot it again. This went on all afternoon, and his target had a tennis ball sized hole in the middle after dozens of rounds. The .30-30 can be very accurate, and has mild recoil compared to some other possible choices that make you want to quit for the day after just a few rounds.

DG

[marlinman93]

MM93,

It'd be interesting to hear a little bit about how you convert these. I have watched the Larry Potterfield videos of him turning one into a copy of Custer's rifle. Be curious of the steps you do. Whether it's more or less work. Thought about trying something similar but wouldn't have the means to thin the action and some of the other things I saw in the videos. Do you leave your military actions original thickness? Unfortunately I can never see any of the pictures in your posts.

If you use a BP era Rolling Block military action you can't thin or modify the actions. BP era actions don't have the extra meat a later #5 smokeless action has, so I leave the action as is and stronger.
I do remove the trigger plate, and if I'm building a straight grip version I rework the trigger guard a lot by filing and shaping the squarish military trigger guard into a more streamline Sporting Rifle shape. I also rework the hammer spur, and breech block spurs to shape them into Sporting style, and then re-checker them using my thread cutting file. Once the spurs, and trigger guard are reshaped the look of the military action is gone, and they look just like my original round top Sporting Rifles.
The military actions also have big beefy thicker and wider tangs. So I thin the top tangs in both width and thickness to make them match Sporting Rifle dimensions. This can be done easily if you own a Sporter to match, but also can wait until you get your stocks, and then simply thin and shape the top tang to fit the new stock.
If I'm building a pistol grip like the one I linked above, I simply buy the complete Sporting pistol grip trigger plate from Numrich Gun Parts for $45. It's a leftover from Remington's late 1990's run, and fit into an older action with just minor filing on each side of a few thousandths to work.
I buy semi inletted stocks, or send my blanks to stock makers to be semi inletted. Used to always use Dave Crossno in Oklahoma, but he is gone, so if I do another I'll use Mike Basset who worked for Dave, and has his own shop now. I always got great work from both guys.
Once I have the metal work done, and fit the stocks, I polish out the metal and send all the receiver parts to Al Springer in Moore, Mt. Al does fantastic color case, and prepped parts get back to me within a few weeks. He also does equally nice rust bluing, if you don't do bluing yourself. I sometimes have him do the bluing, and sometimes do it myself. I use Pat Taylor at C. Sharps to fit barrels usually, and he works with Al by passing the barreled action on to Al once he's done, which saves shipping costs.
Then it's just a case of getting all the finished parts back to me, and reassembling them all. I like building the Rollers, and I try to make them so nobody looks at them and can determine if they're restored Sporting Rifles, or not? I see some builds done on military actions that instantly give clues of their original military history. Some builds don't do anything but change a barrel. Some add new stocks. But if you do everything correctly, the end result will ensure the gun's value is much higher, and it really only takes more time and labor by you, and doesn't add much cost.

[hawkenhunter50]

If you use a BP era Rolling Block military action you can't thin or modify the actions. BP era actions don't have the extra meat a later #5 smokeless action has, so I leave the action as is and stronger.
I do remove the trigger plate, and if I'm building a straight grip version I rework the trigger guard a lot by filing and shaping the squarish military trigger guard into a more streamline Sporting Rifle shape. I also rework the hammer spur, and breech block spurs to shape them into Sporting style, and then re-checker them using my thread cutting file. Once the spurs, and trigger guard are reshaped the look of the military action is gone, and they look just like my original round top Sporting Rifles.
The military actions also have big beefy thicker and wider tangs. So I thin the top tangs in both width and thickness to make them match Sporting Rifle dimensions. This can be done easily if you own a Sporter to match, but also can wait until you get your stocks, and then simply thin and shape the top tang to fit the new stock.
If I'm building a pistol grip like the one I linked above, I simply buy the complete Sporting pistol grip trigger plate from Numrich Gun Parts for $45. It's a leftover from Remington's late 1990's run, and fit into an older action with just minor filing on each side of a few thousandths to work.
I buy semi inletted stocks, or send my blanks to stock makers to be semi inletted. Used to always use Dave Crossno in Oklahoma, but he is gone, so if I do another I'll use Mike Basset who worked for Dave, and has his own shop now. I always got great work from both guys.
Once I have the metal work done, and fit the stocks, I polish out the metal and send all the receiver parts to Al Springer in Moore, Mt. Al does fantastic color case, and prepped parts get back to me within a few weeks. He also does equally nice rust bluing, if you don't do bluing yourself. I sometimes have him do the bluing, and sometimes do it myself. I use Pat Taylor at C. Sharps to fit barrels usually, and he works with Al by passing the barreled action on to Al once he's done, which saves shipping costs.
Then it's just a case of getting all the finished parts back to me, and reassembling them all. I like building the Rollers, and I try to make them so nobody looks at them and can determine if they're restored Sporting Rifles, or not? I see some builds done on military actions that instantly give clues of their original military history. Some builds don't do anything but change a barrel. Some add new stocks. But if you do everything correctly, the end result will ensure the gun's value is much higher, and it really only takes more time and labor by you, and doesn't add much cost.

Thanks a lot for the great explanation. This is a project I've been thinking of trying. Your write up gives some great ideas, thanks again.

[folson]

Hello I just saw this tread and probably should of looked harder before starting another.... I also have a No5 RRB that I cannot get clean (Barrel) Finding another has been a challenge. So I too was considering a rebore to 45-70. I did find a no 1 barrel but do not know if they are the same threading etc. If I am reading this correctly it can be rebored to 45-70? I done some research and some have said the metal would be too thin after being rebored? Comments? Any contacts, cost etc for this service ? Again best forum out there!

[marlinman93]

Hello I just saw this tread and probably should of looked harder before starting another.... I also have a No5 RRB that I cannot get clean (Barrel) Finding another has been a challenge. So I too was considering a rebore to 45-70. I did find a no 1 barrel but do not know if they are the same threading etc. If I am reading this correctly it can be rebored to 45-70? I done some research and some have said the metal would be too thin after being rebored? Comments? Any contacts, cost etc for this service ? Again best forum out there!

I don't think any military Rolling Blocks I've owned or seen can be safely rebored to .45-70, unless they were a fairly large diameter cartridge to start with. The smokeless actions are normally in smaller calibers and have lighter barrels, so doubt yours can be rebored to a .45-70.
I'd suggest you have it rebarreled to a heavier barrel, which means you'll have to decide if you're going to somehow adapt the old wood, or convert to a smaller Sporting style forearm. My choice would be the smaller Sporting forearm, and also put aa Sporting style buttstock on it too. CPA has some nice patterns for military actions that are heavier than Sporting actions, and their prices for semi inletted stocks are very reasonable.
C. Sharps will be able to rebarrel your Rolling Block to .45-70, and they've done great work for me.

[jdsingleshot]

I have as Mauser whose 7x57 barrel began its career on a Remington RB. It's one of the most accurate rifles I own. I'd definitely shoot your RB enough to see if it is a good shooter. The 7x57 is one of my favorite cartridges. I don't see the attraction in a big fat 45-70... jmo...

If you reload, you could form 7x57 from .30-06 to get thicker brass in the neck.

[marlinman93]

I have as Mauser whose 7x57 barrel began its career on a Remington RB. It's one of the most accurate rifles I own. I'd definitely shoot your RB enough to see if it is a good shooter. The 7x57 is one of my favorite cartridges. I don't see the attraction in a big fat 45-70... jmo...

If you reload, you could form 7x57 from .30-06 to get thicker brass in the neck.

For most shooters who own a .45-70 the attraction is multiple reasons. First being it's history as a US military cartridge starting in 1873. Then next being such a wonderful big game cartridge with a history of taking large game without destroying a lot of meat. And then there's the big, heavy bullet that's not affected as easily by crosswinds and holds it's trajectory quite well for long distance shooting.
The .45-70 is probably more popular these days than it's ever been in it's 150 year history!

[hc18flyer]

I understand the attraction to the .45-70, I love mine! I just wouldn't rebore or rebarrel an original Remington Rolling Block in that caliber. Love to have one to play with, maybe someday? hc18flyer

[pietro]

.

The "headspace" issues may stem from worn/bent breechblock & hammer pivot pins - replaceable.

The existing barrel can be re-bored/re-chambered to .45-70 for $300 ( www.35caliber.com ), provided the barrel diameter at the muzzle is 3/4"/.750" minimum for a minimum barrel wall thickness of .125" ( .125" + .125" + .458" = .708" - just under 3/4" )

[schutzen-jager]

Numrich used to sell kits to do the 45/70 conversion + you sometimes see them at gun shows + on ebay -

[schutzen-jager]

hoppes #9 formula change was made a few decades back to remove some cancer causing elements - jmho still smells the same but does not work as well -

[Abert Rim]

Sir, while you are being urged to shoot the rifle as is in 7X57, take a close look at the ammunition that came with it. If it bears strange and seemingly unidentifiable headstamps, I personally would be circumspect about shooting it up without further investigation. At the very least, it may be loaded with nasty old corrosive primers, may produce hangfires, etc.
An early poster in this thread warned that the old wives' tale about the No. 5s being unsafe to shoot was BS. I used to agree until I walked into Russco Guns in Grants Pass, Oregon, one afternoon and noticed that a half-dozen rolling blocks had suddenly appeared on his rifle rack. I asked Phil what the story was and he told me that one of his longtime customers, a rolling block collector, had been shooting a pristine No. 5 in 7X57 at the rifle range in Merlin, OR, and it blew up, nearly costing him an eye. He suddenly lost interest in rolling blocks and consigned his guns to Phil for sale. And then Phil pulled the very No. 5 from a shelf and showed it to me. It was a beautiful specimen with bluing intact and a mirror-like bore, but it had burst at the receiver ring and looked like a flower that had just begun to open. I don't know what load the gentleman had been shooting -- and maybe the load was at fault. But I filed that one away for future reference -- as I did a burst Mosin Nagant action rechambered by the notorious Bannerman outfit to .30-06 that hung outside the door of a barrel maker friend, Mark Beinke, in Klamath Falls, Oregon.
So if you do shoot your No. 5, be sure the ammunition is of unquestioned quality and be absolutely sure to be wearing properly rated eye protection -- good advice for shooting any firearm.

[John Taylor]

The 7X57 ammo was changed about 1913 using a lighter bullet at higher velocity. Don't know if the pressure was increased. Most of the old rolling blocks I have seen in 7X57 have a bit of headspace and many have the breach block not square to the bore which causes the brass to be deformed at the base. Some of the #5s were chambered in 30-06 which may have been a little hot for the rifle. I have converted many to other calibers, usually sticking to rounds under 40,000 psi. My own is in 38-55 with a 34" octagon barrel.

[atr]

I have a #5 7x57 and I've shot J's and cast successfully. The throat is long but I suspect in part because the standard round when first issued was the 175gr RN. I have shot this weight J very successfully. My Rifle's breach block squares up pretty well with the chamber, but as mentioned in other posts some don't. Also, as mentioned previously, DO wear safety glasses when firing because spent gasses will blow back through the firing pin hole. The biggest problem I have found when shooting cast is having a light load which does not expand the brass case enough for a 100% gas seal.
In Freedom
atr

[clearwater]

For most shooters who own a .45-70 the attraction is multiple reasons. First being it's history as a US military cartridge starting in 1873. Then next being such a wonderful big game cartridge with a history of taking large game without destroying a lot of meat. And then there's the big, heavy bullet that's not affected as easily by crosswinds and holds it's trajectory quite well for long distance shooting.
The .45-70 is probably more popular these days than it's ever been in it's 150 year history!

Sounds a lot like the 7mm Mauser. History- a first of it's kind cartridge that the 06 and derivatives where copied from, big game up to elephants, long heavy bullet in 175 grain.

My mom's choice of cartridge!

[bobsyouruncle]

I want to make something like this out of my No.5 RB action323143323144

[marlinman93]

I want to make something like this out of my No.5 RB action323143323144

That's called a "Gemmer Style" with the wiping rod under the barrel. Gove of Denver fame also built Gemmer style Rolling Blocks, and modified them to an under lever too.
Mine is an under lever, but no wiping rod under the barrel.

https://i.imgur.com/UnDHpMKl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GqofGXBl.jpg

[xtriggerman]

Now those are some pretty cool RB's. I'v never seen ones like that.