Beginning in BPCR

[FickleThings]

What is a good starting BPCR rifle to look for? It has always interested me.

[semtav]

Browning/Winchester BPCR 1885 in 40-65 or 45-70.

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[Bad Ass Wallace]

Any of these will do. If you are recoli sensitive the smaller 40cal numbers like 40/65 or else 45/70, 45/90.

https://i.imgur.com/y9yRRvBl.jpg

[Randy Bohannon]

What Semtav said.

[country gent]

The pedersolis get good reviews and can really shoot. I would look for a fast twist 38-55 or 40-65 youll use less lead and powder and recoil is a little easier. But even the 45-70 is okay.
If there are matches near you go and chat with some of them and watch, There always seem to be people with "extras" there.

You need to watch the weight limits on the rifle.

As important is the sights. pedersolis sights will get you started but it wont be long and you will want to upgrade to a better one.

[G W Wade]

Another fan of 38/55. Several of our shooters have gone from 45/70 to the small bore GW

[FickleThings]

I have shot 38-55 in a lever gun and really liked it.

[country gent]

I started out with a 45-90. went to a 40-65 and now a 38-55 one is a c sharps high wall. The other is a DZ Hepburn. I like the side lever or rolling blocks more than the under levers like he sharps, browning, and or high wall / cpa, if you want to shoot prone the side levers allow you to stay more in position.

I have a rolling block action and green mountain 38 caliber 1-14 twist barrel thats going to be a 38-56. Will finish the barrel at 30". Possibly set up for a Paper Patched bullet.

In a 12 lb rifle the 38-55 is easy to shoot recoil is light its pussycat. Im currently using a 365 grn bullet.

[Baltimoreed]

297389
I once had a .45-70 Pendersoli Roller, beautiful rifle but never did much with it. Too many gun hobbies. It eventually got sold. But I do have a book by Paul Matthews that might help you. How To’s for the Black Powder cartridge rifle Shooter. Hope you find a nice single shot. Still have a ss, but its a Martini Cadet. PM sent

[tnlonghunter]

I've got a Pedersoli Sharps in .45-70 and a CPA Silhouette (a Stevens 44 1/2 reproduction) in .40-65. The .40-65 certainly has less recoil and is a little easier to shoot in that regard. But given the weight of these rifles, a .45-70 isn't all that much more punchy. I used to have a .38-55 lever gun, and it really was a lightweight kicker.

As for rifles, the Pedersoli is a great gun. Not as aesthetically refined as most of the US-made ones (that also cost nearly twice as much), but just as effective.

Beware, this NOT an inexpensive shooting hobby (then again, name me a shootinghobby that is truly cheap). Besides the rifle and sights, you'll have to reload, need a good spotting scope, etc. Youay have all that already, which would help a lot.

[greenjoytj]

Revolver cartridges 44-40 or 45 Colt they use much less lead, less powder and kick much less too.
You’ll notice some posters above mentioning they have down sized their cartridges.
Big cartridge cases with heavy bullets deliver huge foot pounds to both the paper target and the shooter.
My Winchester/Miroku M73 in 45 Colt is much less punishing on shoulder and wallet yet still makes a huge boom and a big cloud of white smoke when fired.

[Drydock]

Look for "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" by Mike Venturino, and set down and read it cover to cover. Then decide what you want to do with the rifle. Then you will know what you want.

[GregLaROCHE]

Whatever you start with, it probably won’t be your last.

[almar]

i started with 45 colt revolvers, i then got a 1873 rifle in 45 colt, then a 45-90 pedersoli sharps, i now have a 45-110 on order from shiloh sharps. I like the evolution i made from small to big, i learned alot.

[Idaho45guy]

Look for "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" by Mike Venturino, and set down and read it cover to cover. Then decide what you want to do with the rifle. Then you will know what you want.

I have that book. And I have chatted with him a few times at BPCR matches in Arizona. Good guy.

[trails4u]

I say go old school and get yourself an original rolling block, trapdoor, peabody, etc.... Learn to load with BP and learn to shoot with original sights. You won't compete with $3,000+ modern reproductions right out of the gate....but the old rifles can and will shoot just as well, it just takes a bit more work to get them there. I am, admittedly, quite biased... If it was built after 1890 or so....it's just a gun to me. :wink:

[Bent Ramrod]

Check out the C. Sharps Arms Model 1877 rifles, in .45-70, or, if you’re recoil sensitive, .40-65.

They don’t have the cachet of the 1874 Sharps or the Highwall, mainly because only a couple originals exist. It never went into mass production until C. Sharps started making them. For that reason alone, it typically goes for less money than the more popular repros, but it can hold its own in any rifle match.

25 years or so ago, a guy brought one to our 600-yd military rifle match. He was allowed to participate (shooters were needed more than formalities) and to expend a few shots getting sighted in. He set up in one of those Outer’s rests, cranked the tang sight up, and put seven shots onto the 600-yd target that I could cover with the palm of my hand.

He then went prone and won the match. I’m still impressed.

[nuclearcricket]

Bent, I think you mean the '75 Sharps instead of the '77. I have seen a fair number of 75's on the firing line over the years as Silhouette, as a general rule, the most of them I have seen have plain wood on them but other than that they are just as competitive as any other rifle. At first they had Badger barrels on them and now I think they are using Green Mountain and perhaps others as well.
There are many good rifles out there to choose from, 74's, 75's, 77's in the sharps line as well as HighWall copies from several sources. There is also the CPA rifles. All of the American built rifles will shoot well and last a lifetime. Some of the imports not quite so much. About the only thing on the market these days not USA built is a rolling block, unless you pick up an action and have one custom built.
As far as recoil goes, the 38-55 will be on the low end and still be competitive at the Silhouette game, at the upper end the 45-90 will give you everything you should need out to 1000 yards.
These days, the 2 big fly's in the ointment, so to speak, is availability of components. If you can, 200 rounds of brass would be a good start. All brass seems to be hard to find these days. Easiest will be 45-70, after that it gets spotty. Even 38-55 is a bit on the scarce side. Even more so if you want the correct length of 2.125. While the sorter brass will work, they say the longer is better. Primers and powder can be a bit sketchy at times as well.
Just some of my thoughts. Best of luck
Sam

[Bent Ramrod]

nc, you're right, it is the 75. Most are plain-vanilla in looks but shoot like a house afire. I think they now offer set triggers as an option, but the standard trigger they had for many years was plenty good.

[nuclearcricket]

Nice to know I was right, but yea they for the most part are rather plain when it comes to the wood. Other than that there isn't anything wrong with them, they do shoot. I have rifles with both single and set triggers. A single trigger roller and the single trigger Browning. The browning has just a touch of creep, oh well it is what it is. The Roller is pretty nice.
Any action that is built these days to take those big cartridges is good. Its the barrel that really matters. A good barrel, the right bullet and powder charge will work well for anyone day in and day out. It may take a bit of work to find just what your rifle likes the best but in the long run it will be well worth the work.
I kind of have a unique prospective as I work as the Range Officer for the BPCS matches at Ridgway Pa. I get to see a lot of shooters and a lot of rifles. I have seen things that would make you just stand there and shake your head. I have watched a shooter shoot a bank, and the come back and put a second bullet on top of the splash of the first that they shot on that target.
BPCR is a challenge, no getting around that. Finding the right bullet, the right powder charge, the right compression, the right primer and wad stack can be a lot of work but when you hit that magic combination, its well worth the effort.
If you have never been to a Silhouette match, you should make an effort to attend one. The people are great and can be very helpful. You watch a match and you will realize just why there are so few buffalo's around. I honestly think that most would be surprised what can be done with a cast bullet and a case full of black powder. And it can be done at a great distance.
Sam

[bandanaman]

When I got the bug I opted for a Pedersoli 1874 Billy's sharps. Budget was the main factor and the fact besides which end was which I didn't know anything about them other than they caught my eye at the sportsman shows way back when. I could never resist buying a ticket. All that said as country gent suggested I fell out of love with the the mid range Pedersoli soule sight before long and went to a MVA. I feel the rifle the rifle shoots better than I can and have no complaints at all. I have not had the opportunity however to shoot a higher end rifle and thus far have not been spoiled....The matches are where you can find a huge gene pool and learn tons in a very short time from some of the nicest people you could meet...all willing to help...

[country gent]

If you plan to shoot in NRA matches any time watch the weight on the pedersolis some are over what the nra allows in silhouette matches.

[indian joe]

When I got the bug I opted for a Pedersoli 1874 Billy's sharps. Budget was the main factor and the fact besides which end was which I didn't know anything about them other than they caught my eye at the sportsman shows way back when. I could never resist buying a ticket. All that said as country gent suggested I fell out of love with the the mid range Pedersoli soule sight before long and went to a MVA. I feel the rifle the rifle shoots better than I can and have no complaints at all. I have not had the opportunity however to shoot a higher end rifle and thus far have not been spoiled....The matches are where you can find a huge gene pool and learn tons in a very short time from some of the nicest people you could meet...all willing to help...

If you dont mind tellin ---what was it about the pedersoli sight ?

[38-72]

Browning/Winchester BPCR 1885 in 40-65 or 45-70.

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What he said. These rifles are the best value going. They come with great sights too. My son is working on his Master Class with his 40-65. He only has to shoot one more score to get there.

[Gunlaker]

Browning/Winchester BPCR 1885 in 40-65 or 45-70.

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That's what I would recommend as well.

Chris.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

If you dont mind tellin ---what was it about the pedersoli sight ?

They are junk, difficult to manage in fast changing conditions.

You never see them on the firing line, at any major match. Because they never survive their first usage in any timed event. Only a new inexperienced shooter will attempt them in a match. Once in that baptism of fire, they are soon gone replaced with a quality sight.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Gunlaker]

One of the most important parts of a Soule sight, other than it being mechanically sound and not sloppy, is the way the markings are done. They need to be very precisely done and machined perfectly. On the staff, the drum, and the windage marks. In addition to sloppiness, this is where a lot of sights let you down. I've owned a bunch of different brands ( Pedersoli, Shaver, C. Sharps, Riflesmith, AMT) and after learning the hard way, I'll never buy anything but MVA when it comes to a rear sight. I have heard that the Baldwin and Kelly sights are comparable but haven't used them. The MVA's are cheaper once you realize you'll probably sell the others at a loss when you upgrade :-).

With that said, if you aren't going to compete and mostly shoot informally, you can get by with any of them including the Pedersoli. But even then, if your sight develops excess backlash in the windage drum you might be less than happy.

Chris.

[M-Tecs]

I don't think Kermit is still producing sights but I really like my Hoke sights.

[hawkenhunter50]

I don't think Kermit is still producing sights but I really like my Hoke sights.

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard his son was taking over and would still be making them. Don't have one but looked one over and it did seem very nice.

[indian joe]

One of the most important parts of a Soule sight, other than it being mechanically sound and not sloppy, is the way the markings are done. They need to be very precisely done and machined perfectly. On the staff, the drum, and the windage marks. In addition to sloppiness, this is where a lot of sights let you down. I've owned a bunch of different brands ( Pedersoli, Shaver, C. Sharps, Riflesmith, AMT) and after learning the hard way, I'll never buy anything but MVA when it comes to a rear sight. I have heard that the Baldwin and Kelly sights are comparable but haven't used them. The MVA's are cheaper once you realize you'll probably sell the others at a loss when you upgrade :-).

With that said, if you aren't going to compete and mostly shoot informally, you can get by with any of them including the Pedersoli. But even then, if your sight develops excess backlash in the windage drum you might be less than happy.

Chris.

so this is homemade - I have not had opportunity to shoot a time event yet (one coming up in August) - cant see good enough to properly line up those little squinchy markings no matter how precisely they are machined - if I tried it would mean shooting glasses off, readers on, adjust sight, change glasses back etc. gonna blow my time away!
I calibrated the elevation and windage screws so I know the value of each sector marking in MOA on the target - then all I got to do is remember those two numbers (elevation for this rifle and sight is 2.3moa per full turn) - this is simple and I am still trying to figure out why it wont work as well as lines scribed on the staff?
Since the picture I have added a lock screw to the windage on this sight so we dont get that backlash problem.
Hadlee eyecup off a parker hale SMLE sight - have another same setup on my sharps - just change the eyecup over
MVA landed here proly gonna leave hamburger change out of 700bucks - importation permits and several months wait.
My homemade proly about on par with a Pedersoli - charge my time - proly didnt save anything - but I made it
299000

[Gunlaker]

Wow! No too many of us can make our own sights, definitely not me :-)

Chris.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

so this is homemade - I have not had opportunity to shoot a time event yet (one coming up in August) - cant see good enough to properly line up those little squinchy markings no matter how precisely they are machined - if I tried it would mean shooting glasses off, readers on, adjust sight, change glasses back etc. gonna blow my time away!
I calibrated the elevation and windage screws so I know the value of each sector marking in MOA on the target - then all I got to do is remember those two numbers (elevation for this rifle and sight is 2.3moa per full turn) - this is simple and I am still trying to figure out why it wont work as well as lines scribed on the staff?
Since the picture I have added a lock screw to the windage on this sight so we dont get that backlash problem.
Hadlee eyecup off a parker hale SMLE sight - have another same setup on my sharps - just change the eyecup over
MVA landed here proly gonna leave hamburger change out of 700bucks - importation permits and several months wait.
My homemade proly about on par with a Pedersoli - charge my time - proly didnt save anything - but I made it
299000

Wow, first of all the lines you say aren’t necessarily allow precise and repeatable sight settings that can be recorded for reference from one day to the next. Or to record differences in loads elevation settings. Knowing how much exactly the difference in a head wind condition vrs a tail wind or even a hard side wind.

Another example is a total reversal in wind, say a hard left to right that requires 7 MOA of left wind. Then reversed to a 3 or 4 o’clock right to left that required going to mechanical or it should also be your no wind Zero. Set up before the match that little line you think isn’t necessary. You now need 5 MOA right of that. Your no wind zero especially if you’re shootings 1000 yards needs to be set to compensate the 3 MOA spin drift correction.

I can go on, with the necessary requirements of a precise set of markings for these issues.

You have obviously never competed in any kind of real distance competition.

Thinking those little lines, aren’t necessary, you suffer from something called hubris, and you have a real bad case of it.

With reference marks your homemade tool, which looks well done might be serviceable. Without any such, you will have very difficult issues in the heat of competition.

Honestly, and with no malice intended, you haven’t a clue, what your handicapped with this setup.

KW

[MDLever]

Tim Hoke, Kermit's son, is making the sight and they are excellent. There is a website or I don't mind helping you get in touch if want to e-mail me. I also have MVA rear, Lee Shaver and Jim Kelly sights (front and rear) and like them all.

[Dave T]

Too bad Mr Wasserburger can't share his considerable knowledge without being rude or insulting. Sad indeed.

Dave

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Too bad Mr Wasserburger can't share his considerable knowledge without being rude or insulting. Sad indeed.

Dave

Honesty often isn’t well received.

Wasn’t addressing you either. Best he gets honest answers, instead of cheering him on to failure.

He built a good looking sight but really lacks some real experiences.

I said no malice intended.

Kenny W.

[Idaho45guy]

Too bad Mr Wasserburger can't share his considerable knowledge without being rude or insulting. Sad indeed.

Dave

It appears his reputation among the BPCR crowd is well deserved. It is sad

[Don McDowell]

Kenny is exactly right without good reference marks on a sight in switching winds a shooter can get lost in the weeds off the taget rather suddenly
One relay at the desert International last month we went from 12 right to 28 left with a couple of stops at zero and that was in a span of about 35 minutes and 15 shots for record
Kenny’s reputation with the majority of bpcr shooters is rock solid to the good side


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[Gunlaker]

You can definitely tell who's got a good dead wind zero, and has compensated for spin drift, when the wind reverses :-). Getting that sorted out and being confident of it is necessary otherwise you will definitely have a bad day at distance. Spin drift even comes to play a little bit at the ram line but unless you are getting reversals a lot of people won't notice it. This is one of the reasons that you really need a high quality sight that is repeatable, readable, and free of backlash as much as possible.

Kenny speaks the truth like usual. You might not like his style, but he won't steer you wrong. He's one of a small group that is happy to share everything he's learned along the way. I've learned a lot from him and the rest of the Wyoming folks.

I am still impressed Joe by you making your own sight though. A couple of years ago we had a guy show up with a Winchester highwall that he'd built from scratch ( including making the action ). He just wanted to see how it'd shoot. He did pretty well too.

Chris.

[M-Tecs]

Tim Hoke, Kermit's son, is making the sight and they are excellent. There is a website or I don't mind helping you get in touch if want to e-mail me. I also have MVA rear, Lee Shaver and Jim Kelly sights (front and rear) and like them all.

I am Facebook Friends with Kermit so I will send him a message. Thanks. Good to hear his son took over the sight business.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

It appears his reputation among the BPCR crowd is well deserved. It is sad


As I said no malice was intended, thin skins seem to be the norm. Joe made a statement about no marks needed on a sight. Based on absolutely no knowledge, I pointed out the huge fallacy in his thought process, nothing more. Those that fail to point these facts out to him, are actually doing more harm than good. If blunt harsh honesty, is sad, good grief.

What’s sad nobody was going to point out the error in his thought process. Setting Joe up for failure isn’t any sort of kindness.

Kenny Wasserburger

[semtav]

so this is homemade - I have not had opportunity to shoot a time event yet (one coming up in August) - cant see good enough to properly line up those little squinchy markings no matter how precisely they are machined - if I tried it would mean shooting glasses off, readers on, adjust sight, change glasses back etc. gonna blow my time away!
]

One option is to get glasses with the largest bifocal (bottom lense)they will make you. Even if you don't like bifocals. You only use the very top of your glasses for shooting. Or look under the glasses if you don't need close up lenses.
Like Kenny said, you think you can keep track of your turns but you will get so lost with switching winds you'll wonder how you even got to the range.

MVA are top of the line, but I switched to Hoke cause I can read them better. Just personal preference.



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[Keith Andersen]

Too bad Mr Wasserburger can't share his considerable knowledge without being rude or insulting. Sad indeed.

Dave

He is that for sure Dave.
You don't want your young kids on line close enough that they can hear him.
I had to pull the sticks and move the kids from the line at the Quigley Match.

But getting back to the subject,
I use the Browning BPCR with the Browning sights on the .40-65 and on my .45-90 Browning it has the MVA. Both combinations are a good way to go.

Keith

[Kenny Wasserburger]

He is that for sure Dave.
You don't want your young kids on line close enough that they can hear him.
I had to pull the sticks and move the kids from the line at the Quigley Match.

But getting back to the subject,
I use the Browning BPCR with the Browning sights on the .40-65 and on my .45-90 Browning it has the MVA. Both combinations are a good way to go.

Keith

Just exactly when was that? Been many a year, since I shot the Quigley.

Kenny W.

[indian joe]

Wow, first of all the lines you say aren’t necessarily allow precise and repeatable sight settings that can be recorded for reference from one day to the next. Or to record differences in loads elevation settings. Knowing how much exactly the difference in a head wind condition vrs a tail wind or even a hard side wind.

Didnt say the markings arent necessary - just cant see em when there is a lot (proly mostly been seein sights you say are junk anyway) I do have a few scribed for my pet load zero marking so I can count any range from there - a start is all. 600yards is maximum range here - never gonna shoot a serious match past that
So if you were doin this what is the bare minimum distance you would want a mark on the sight staff or crossslide (crossslide more important - and count between) 1MOA? 2MOA? 5MOA? ---- what could you work with as least best that would still get it done.
I hold my sh#t together better than most blokes on the firing line but I do get the confusion under pressure issue - I get that ok!

Another example is a total reversal in wind, say a hard left to right that requires 7 MOA of left wind. Then reversed to a 3 or 4 o’clock right to left that required going to mechanical or it should also be your no wind Zero. Set up before the match that little line you think isn’t necessary. You now need 5 MOA right of that. Your no wind zero especially if you’re shootings 1000 yards needs to be set to compensate the 3 MOA spin drift correction.
I have experienced weather (and changes) on the high plains a couple times - believe our shooting conditions are a lot kinder than your dry country conditions in general

I can go on, with the necessary requirements of a precise set of markings for these issues.
yeah if they are there the gotta be precise and easily legible

You have obviously never competed in any kind of real distance competition. Correct! proly never going to in your language - 500 - 600 yards 2 - 3 times a year is all will happen - doesnt mean I want to come last when I line up tho!

Thinking those little lines, aren’t necessary, you suffer from something called hubris, and you have a real bad case of it.
Ya misinterpreted there - never said aint necessary - asked tell me why they are

With reference marks your homemade tool, which looks well done might be serviceable. Without any such, you will have very difficult issues in the heat of competition.
So ok its not an easy deal making those marks - again tell me bare minimum that will work for cross slide and elevation I have good accurate 100yard zero on both at the moment

Honestly, and with no malice intended, you haven’t a clue, what your handicapped with this setup.
none took thanks for the reply
KW
......

[indian joe]

Too bad Mr Wasserburger can't share his considerable knowledge without being rude or insulting. Sad indeed.

Dave

Dave
he didnt have to reply - I can take the attitude (got one of those meself) - so long as he is offering up something useful its all good - and hes right on most counts, I have shot a lot over the years and done good at it too but I am raw beginner at long range - the few events I have shot managed to come in about halfway up the field (small, inexperienced fields here) halfway is too close to the bottom for me to be satisfied with.

[Don McDowell]

Joe 2 minute marks would suffice on both the windage and elevation. If you could break them down smaller would be good.
Don't know if you have anything like the Decot shooting glasses available to you , but you can get non prescriptive lenses with the bifocal in the lower corner of the lenses, it sure helps to be able to look down at the sight and see those itty bitty marks. :)

[indian joe]

One option is to get glasses with the largest bifocal (bottom lense)they will make you. Even if you don't like bifocals. You only use the very top of your glasses for shooting. Or look under the glasses if you don't need close up lenses.
Like Kenny said, you think you can keep track of your turns but you will get so lost with switching winds you'll wonder how you even got to the range.

MVA are top of the line, but I switched to Hoke cause I can read them better. Just personal preference.



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Bifocals might help but I hate the things with a passion - downright dangerous for me to wear any kind of closeups moving around buildings and machinery - ladders , steps and such - not goin there (yet anyway).

[indian joe]

Joe 2 minute marks would suffice on both the windage and elevation. If you could break them down smaller would be good.
Don't know if you have anything like the Decot shooting glasses available to you , but you can get non prescriptive lenses with the bifocal in the lower corner of the lenses, it sure helps to be able to look down at the sight and see those itty bitty marks. :)

Don
thanks. 2MOA I can do accurately and I could see those ok without foolin around with glasses on and off
I need a bit of magnification now to shoot (and drive) eyes have always been very light sensitive - so daylight driving without glasses is still ok - around dusk in town I am a menace to all and sundry - even with glasses its hard - at night ok - black outside and good lights I can go all night

[semtav]

Bifocals might help but I hate the things with a passion - downright dangerous for me to wear any kind of closeups moving around buildings and machinery - ladders , steps and such - not goin there (yet anyway).I was only thinking of when you are shooting. I won't even wear my glasses anytime other than shooting or flying.

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[Don McDowell]

Joe the no line bifocals aren't much of a problem for everyday stuff, but they don't work worth a flip for shooting.

[Gunlaker]

Joe, whatever marks you end up with on your sight, you'll want to be able to make corrections as small as 1/2 minute.

Even if I'm hitting close to center I'll often make 1/2 minute corrections. For instance in silhouette if we make 3 hits in the upper body of the ram I'll often drop it 1/2 minute. Same with target shooting. No point being happy with being high in the 10 ring when the x is sitting just below it :-).

Not that these rifles are capable of consistent 1/2 minute accuracy but you want to be able to tune up where the center of the group is.

Chris.

[indian joe]

Joe, whatever marks you end up with on your sight, you'll want to be able to make corrections as small as 1/2 minute.

Even if I'm hitting close to center I'll often make 1/2 minute corrections. For instance in silhouette if we make 3 hits in the upper body of the ram I'll often drop it 1/2 minute. Same with target shooting. No point being happy with being high in the 10 ring when the x is sitting just below it :-).

Not that these rifles are capable of consistent 1/2 minute accuracy but you want to be able to tune up where the center of the group is.

Chris.

Chris - I reckon I can do those small corrections off my knob marks - I have quarter turns on the elevation and eighth on the windage (a whisker over half MOA on the vertical and 0.4MOA windage) with a deep notch on each for full turn - If I do Dons 2MOA marks and do em right I reckon this will work .
Getting lost on big sharp moves like KW flagged had not occurred to me - two reasons - have not shot timed event - plus I think our shooting conditions are way kinder as far as radical wind goes - yep each range has its own tricks for sure (most are in hilly country and thats always a problem even in light winds) but we dont get the drastic changes like any of you fellers that shoot along the east side of the range and out a ways. Have seen that a couple of times - blizzard in the Nebraska sandhills in 2005 dropped 53 degrees temp from 9am to 5pm, snowdrifts 15 feet deep the next morning, another blow I missed while I was driving back from the east turned 1000centre pivots over in the state - we dont get that kind of thing here (not yet anyway)

[Gunlaker]

Getting lost is easy if you don't have things set up right. The way around it having the sights set up for dead wind zero ( changes with increasing distance so it's not constant ), and always knowing how much windage you have on the gun for each shot.

You are right about hilly terrain. I'm traveling up to our closest silhouette range in a couple of days. It's got complex terrain. Often a very strange wind condition comes up on sunny days, I think rotating winds through the middle of the range as far as I can tell, and I've yet to see anyone figure it out when it gets nasty.

Chris.

[Tazman1602]

Dang, I thought hubris was something you spread on crackers…….

Art

[Kenny Wasserburger]

He is that for sure Dave.
You don't want your young kids on line close enough that they can hear him.
I had to pull the sticks and move the kids from the line at the Quigley Match.

But getting back to the subject,
I use the Browning BPCR with the Browning sights on the .40-65 and on my .45-90 Browning it has the MVA. Both combinations are a good way to go.

Keith


I just checked my shooting diary. Last time I shot the Quigley was 2007. Long before you ever showed up I believe.

This year I was there the morning of the first day, picking up powder. Approximately 4 hours while the shooting was going on. First time in 15 years.

You’re a lier sir, or you got me confused with someone else.

Kenny Wasserburger

[bandanaman]

If you dont mind tellin ---what was it about the pedersoli sight ?

On my rifle I was pretty well maxed out for 500 M shots with the mid range sight . You had to loosen the eye cup for both windage and elevation adjustments and besides being limited I found those difficult to read where as the elevation was extremely easy as it has the individual minutes numbered which I did like a lot.[no counting]

[bandanaman]

On another note my Pedersoli breaks a firing pin every 3 years or so. I will have to check my log books to see if there is a pattern for how many rounds may have gone through the rifle. I thought possibly the first failed due to pilot error at first with not having the gun at half cock here and there while I was learning and getting familiar with the rifle. I went through this just this last week and opted to change the firing pin spring as well. It was nice to have a spare as it is no big deal to change. I have heard it is not uncommon for the pins to break but some fellows have told me it has never ever happened to them. I will likely order 3 more this week strictly for peace of mind. Curious to know if others have had to replace these parts in their rifles in general or maybe a weak point for Pedersoli ????

[bandanaman]

Joe the no line bifocals aren't much of a problem for everyday stuff, but they don't work worth a flip for shooting.

My Progressive lens do not work well for me for shooting either, driving YES shooting NO. Even walking on uneven ground in the bush I look like a drunken monkey. On the shooting line I raise my regular glasses up and slip my readers on to do sight adjustments[my bandana keeps them clean from hair oil]. I have only once as yet not got off a complete timed round. One of the first things I was told besides treating each shot as your first shot is that any hit is better than 3 misses and to take what ever time it takes.

[indian joe]

On my rifle I was pretty well maxed out for 500 M shots with the mid range sight . You had to loosen the eye cup for both windage and elevation adjustments and besides being limited I found those difficult to read where as the elevation was extremely easy as it has the individual minutes numbered which I did like a lot.[no counting]

So you had their Creedmoor sight not the Soule?

I started with their cheap non windage tang sight - made a windage adjustable front sight from the screw adjuster off a 310 martini rear - still have that on my Sharps - I use the front adjustment so I can get the rear cross slide dead centre setting on a calm day - I made the Soule style sight a couple years ago - made three of those - took some work at the time . I just looked at the Pedersoli website, AU$540 for their Soule sight, no idea what an MVA would cost downunder but substantially more than that !

[bandanaman]

Yes you're correct. The Universal Middle Range Creedmoor sight USA 465.I can't access MVA's site at the moment but if I recall the Long range Buffalo Soule 103 and base $485.00,knurled screw[if you want] $36.00,Hadley eyecup $113.00 =$634.00 USD=$879.49 AUD plus Shipping.....Our Canadian dollar isn't much stronger than AUD but I had over $750.00 CDN invested but shipping was only $12.95 USD [to an American address] just across the border and I bought the eyecup used for $50.00 CDN .I had to pay duty at the border which was about $70.00.So $820.00 thereabouts ....I was working then, now on a fixed income I may not have been as eager !!!!!!I am glad however I have it and don't regret having spent it.....

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Ah yeah got a notification today in my FB memories. 2008 was the last time. I shot the Quigley Match.

You sir either got me confused with someone else or…. You’re just a damn lier.

Kenny Wasserburger

[glen ring]

I started with a 38-55 and after MUCH experimenting, went to a 40-65. I had a 45-70, but like the 40-65 rifles MUCH better. We have four now and my 13 year old ( a few months ago) tolerates the recoil very well. We have an original Winchester 1885, two c-sharps and a Japanese made 40-65 Winchester with a Browning barrel. They all shoot well. One of the best shooters in texas shoots a Pedersoli with a green mountain barrel. Get a gun and just try the sport.

[Silhouette]

G'day Joe, that sight looks like it's mounted on a Winchester 73.
Do you shoot matches with it?
I have much the same set up for LAS.

[indian joe]

G'day Joe, that sight looks like it's mounted on a Winchester 73.
Do you shoot matches with it?
I have much the same set up for LAS.

Its on a 1876 Uberti -- 45/75 -
not shot it in competition yet
thats a problem - the BPCR silywet crowd has a rule that sez single shots only - the logic is these are the buffalo rifles - well the 76 was used on the bison winchester loaded a 450grain x 90 grain Paper Patch pointy boolit round for it in the early days - have not got to the point of arguing my case yet - spose I could pull the magazine off it and its a single shot?
was intending to try it in the long range event at Hill End this year but they cancelled the easter shoot (held the ML events at Gunnedah and yet to make a decision on the LR events)

[Tazman1602]

I know I’m going to get blasted for this but, 20 or so years ago when I started toying with the idea of BPCR I think I had the perfect solution. Heck I didn’t want to compete nor drive 250 miles to a match, I just wanted something simple, easy, and fun.

At the time, H&R made the Buffalo classic in 45-70. Single shot, easy to clean, and cheap. I ordered two. After a two year wait I gave up. I didn’t want to shoot BP in any of my Marlins or Winchesters because of the cleanup. At the time I think they listed for around $250, now I see used upwards of $800, just plain too much!

…….of course, back then SKS carbines we’re….$89.95…..

I still think, for someone just wanting to shoot to see if they actually enjoyed this sport this is the way to go — maybe a Henry single shot? Just one guys outlook on it..

Art

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Try breaking position with the H&R during the prone part which is 75% of the match. Let alone the difficulties of mounting a proper sight. It’s obvious you have never attended a match. It’s a poor choice for such, a few tried it, you never see them in a silhouette match due to the difficulties I mentioned. Have you ever fired on of these with full house BP loads. Recoil is most unpleasant due to the very light weight, a 40 shot match with sighters approaching 60 shots in a day.

What you think is a sound solution isn’t at all, if you had tried it just once you would definitely rethink your stance.

KW

[Silhouette]

I know I’m going to get blasted for this but, 20 or so years ago when I started toying with the idea of BPCR I think I had the perfect solution. Heck I didn’t want to compete nor drive 250 miles to a match, I just wanted something simple, easy, and fun.

At the time, H&R made the Buffalo classic in 45-70. Single shot, easy to clean, and cheap. I ordered two. After a two year wait I gave up. I didn’t want to shoot BP in any of my Marlins or Winchesters because of the cleanup. At the time I think they listed for around $250, now I see used upwards of $800, just plain too much!

…….of course, back then SKS carbines we’re….$89.95…..

I still think, for someone just wanting to shoot to see if they actually enjoyed this sport this is the way to go — maybe a Henry single shot? Just one guys outlook on it..

Art

I've done much the same but more recently. I didn't want to spend too much not knowing if I am going to stick with it.
I bought a second hand Uberti High Wall. It came with a Marbles tang sight which won't get me even remotely close to 500m.
I have put that project on hold for now due to a number of reasons, 1 of which is there is zero interest from any other club members to try bpcr silhouettes.
When I can justify a vernier tang sight and the other blokes see me killing it, hopefully some will want to join in.

[BLAHUT]

SHOOTING A SILHOUTTE MATCH IS COUNTING HITS A TARGET MATCH IS COUNTING POINTS AN X RING AT 1000 yds IS 10 " A SILHOUTTE IS FEET> ACCURACERY IS MORE DAMANDING AT A TARGET MATCH> I SPENT ROUGHLY 5 YEARS GETTING MY ROLLING BLOCK 45/70 TO SHOOT THE WAY I WANTED IT TO WILL HOLD THE X RING 8 OUT OF 10 SHOTS AT 1000 yds IF I DO MY PART>>

[Kenny Wasserburger]

SHOOTING A SILHOUTTE MATCH IS COUNTING HITS A TARGET MATCH IS COUNTING POINTS AN X RING AT 1000 yds IS 10 " A SILHOUTTE IS FEET> ACCURACERY IS MORE DAMANDING AT A TARGET MATCH> I SPENT ROUGHLY 5 YEARS GETTING MY ROLLING BLOCK 45/70 TO SHOOT THE WAY I WANTED IT TO WILL HOLD THE X RING 8 OUT OF 10 SHOTS AT 1000 yds IF I DO MY PART>>
Wow how many National championships have you won at 1000 yards.

KW

[Tazman1602]

Try breaking position with the H&R during the prone part which is 75% of the match. Let alone the difficulties of mounting a proper sight. It’s obvious you have never attended a match. It’s a poor choice for such, a few tried it, you never see them in a silhouette match due to the difficulties I mentioned. Have you ever fired on of these with full house BP loads. Recoil is most unpleasant due to the very light weight, a 40 shot match with sighters approaching 60 shots in a day.

What you think is a sound solution isn’t at all, if you had tried it just once you would definitely rethink your stance.

KW

Oh boy Kenny, if you read my post it was about beginning in BPCR and you’re right - shoot I’ve never even seen a match. I’m talking about someone who is just getting interested in BPCR — loading black, grease cookies, and the cleanup involved…… not to mention spending many thousands on a decent rifle, firing and testing hundreds of rounds with black, and just having fun in general. So glad you are an expert BPCR shooter, but in order to proliferate the sport, which I would love to see someday, you have got to get inexperienced shooters to actually try the stuff.

My suggestion, for someone who is interested was to get an inexpensive reasonable setup to see if whoever wanted to try this was to get what I suggested, shoot a few hundred or even a thousand rounds, and find out if it’s really something they want to try out. That might mean a young shooter trying to support a family because if you can’t get young shooters to attempt it at a level that they can afford for a few years, the sport is going to die a slow death.

You can’t come across as an arrogant know it all putting down others attempts and expect them to want to continue — no offense intended. Not saying handle them with kid gloves either, but there are some darn fine people BPCR might get involved with just a bit of help.

I’ve read every single book Paul Matthews ever wrote and am going through them taking notes again, but he has never come across harshly to anyone who might want to try this very interesting sport. Hope your winning streak continues and also that a neophyte who’s practiced well hands you a loss someday. Sheesh Kenny….

Art

[indian joe]

I know I’m going to get blasted for this but, 20 or so years ago when I started toying with the idea of BPCR I think I had the perfect solution. Heck I didn’t want to compete nor drive 250 miles to a match, I just wanted something simple, easy, and fun.

At the time, H&R made the Buffalo classic in 45-70. Single shot, easy to clean, and cheap. I ordered two. After a two year wait I gave up. I didn’t want to shoot BP in any of my Marlins or Winchesters because of the cleanup. At the time I think they listed for around $250, now I see used upwards of $800, just plain too much!

…….of course, back then SKS carbines we’re….$89.95…..

I still think, for someone just wanting to shoot to see if they actually enjoyed this sport this is the way to go — maybe a Henry single shot? Just one guys outlook on it..

Art

Art
I started out with a carbine weight sharps (repro) shooting prone at the 600yard - the gun was just 8 pounds neat, 535 grain boolit, lil skinny stock - it were not a fun experience at all - I fed the number info through one of those online recoil calculators that told me the pain was NOT my imagination at all - a couple years ago I made a 2 pound lead buttplate for that gun and laced it on with a leather pad/cover that gave me some extra comb height - now its ten pound, the buttplate area is about doubled and it dont hurt anymore. yeah its unbalanced all to heck but once I get on the line that dont matter. All I am trying to say here is if your friend picks a 45/70 get something with some weight in it (ten pound) life will be a lot more fun.
The H & R and the Henry single shot are 7 pound plinkers - in 45/70 that is gonna hurt shot prone or benched another good argument for the 38/55 I guess.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Oh boy Kenny, if you read my post it was about beginning in BPCR and you’re right - shoot I’ve never even seen a match. I’m talking about someone who is just getting interested in BPCR — loading black, grease cookies, and the cleanup involved…… not to mention spending many thousands on a decent rifle, firing and testing hundreds of rounds with black, and just having fun in general. So glad you are an expert BPCR shooter, but in order to proliferate the sport, which I would love to see someday, you have got to get inexperienced shooters to actually try the stuff.

My suggestion, for someone who is interested was to get an inexpensive reasonable setup to see if whoever wanted to try this was to get what I suggested, shoot a few hundred or even a thousand rounds, and find out if it’s really something they want to try out. That might mean a young shooter trying to support a family because if you can’t get young shooters to attempt it at a level that they can afford for a few years, the sport is going to die a slow death.

You can’t come across as an arrogant know it all putting down others attempts and expect them to want to continue — no offense intended. Not saying handle them with kid gloves either, but there are some darn fine people BPCR might get involved with just a bit of help.

I’ve read every single book Paul Matthews ever wrote and am going through them taking notes again, but he has never come across harshly to anyone who might want to try this very interesting sport. Hope your winning streak continues and also that a neophyte who’s practiced well hands you a loss someday. Sheesh Kenny….

Art

Good lord, you got thin skin, if you thought I was harsh. What you encouraged would send a new shooter away quickly, I been beat plenty of times.

The set up you encouraged, won’t work for numerous reasons and would definitely discourage anyone from trying again.

You’re not being helpful at all. As for encouragement to new shooters I do it often at matches, which I actually attend.

Your post was sort of like. “I have never flown a jet plane, yet read lots of books on the subject, so here is how you do it.” And trust me that guy using the H&R is going to crash and burn based on your logic.

As for Paul M, nobody in the top shooters of Bpcr use a single thing he espouses in his books. His paper patch book is horrible. The best book on it is Randy Wright’s.

These days I shoot more 22BPCRA than BP silhouette. Mostly long range and midrange also.

When I state facts, vrs conjecture I do so to encourage shooters, if that’s harsh, best stick to lawn darts.

KW

One other thing: I don’t take criticism from people I would never go to for Advice.

[Bent Ramrod]

I’ve seen people shooting Buffalo Classics at the Quigley. They have as much fun as anyone else. A set of good vernier and globe iron sights (which can be transferred to a more expensive rifle if the tyro decides to stick with it) and a shoulder strap recoil pad will provide enough shooting experience for a decision of whether to continue the sport.

Given the H&Rs are out of print now, unless somebody has one already, I would recommend one of the rebuilt and rebarreled Rolling Blocks, whether original or replica, for starters. They are all over the place used, can sometimes be had at bargain prices, and have more of the look and weight of “the real thing,” which of course, they are. They can be plain or fancy, and still shoot well.

It is no joke what this sport costs, in money and time. You can buy one of those plastic-and-aluminum “simi-ottos” for less than a barreling or stocking job on one of these BPCRs. Not to mention the time spent casting and loading. It may take more than the availability of a cheap rifle to get somebody started these days. Movies and TV are all cops&robbers and Terran/Alien space battles rather than cowboys&indians and buff runners now, so no intro there.

I would say, from the relative popularity I’ve seen, that the introduction of a special class (never to share in the BP awards or records) for smokeless and substitute shooters would do more to inveigle new shooters into our camp than any el-cheapo intro rifle models. A lot (a LOT) of people already have the rifles, but don’t want to mess with black powder, mainly because they think it’s too much trouble. If they were to see that other shooters aren’t stressing themselves out with it, some portion of these newbies eventually might be tempted to try it themselves. In the meantime, they can at least swell the ranks on the firing line.

True, there is a “safety” issue, but only two blowups (one involving injury, and only to the shooter) have occurred in the 30 years the Quigley has been going on. I get worse odds of serious bodily injury driving through Albuquerque and Denver on the way up.

There’s also the problem that a lot of people are allergic to the very idea of “competition.” They think they’ll disgrace themselves if they don’t win. I don’t know what to do about that; haven’t been able to get friends (who have the guns and even load black powder) out to a silhouette or even a gong shoot yet. All our ace shots (several do well at National Championships) always have the time and courtesy to answer beginners’ questions. I don’t think it’s even agenda driven. They just like to talk about guns and gun stuff with anybody who’s interested.

[Gunlaker]

After all of this conversation about starting rifles for silhouette, I'd still pick a used Browning BPCR or a used Pedersoli. Buying them used means you'll probably be able to sell them for what you paid if you don't end up liking it. They'll both shoot well enough and can be used in any type of black powder match.

It is a tricky sport to get people involved in, probably the effort to learn to cast match quality bullets more than the BP cleanup for new people. But that's just the way it is. No shortcuts there.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Attending a match is probably the best way to get into it. Even if you don't have the rifle yet. I shot my single shots for several years with BP before I ever went to a match. I still remember the sounds when I drove up for my first silhouette match. Hearing the echoes of the shots rolling around the hills like thunder and hearing the sound of hits on distant steel made a big impression on me. Later I got into BPTR which I like more than silhouette, but it's all fun.

Chris.

[BrentD]

What semtav said, or alternatively, a Shiloh or C. Sharps or CPA Stevens in the same calibers. I started with a Shiloh. Had to rebarrel it, however.

[GL49]

so this is homemade - I have not had opportunity to shoot a time event yet (one coming up in August) - cant see good enough to properly line up those little squinchy markings no matter how precisely they are machined - if I tried it would mean shooting glasses off, readers on, adjust sight, change glasses back etc. gonna blow my time away!
I calibrated the elevation and windage screws so I know the value of each sector marking in MOA on the target - then all I got to do is remember those two numbers (elevation for this rifle and sight is 2.3moa per full turn) - this is simple and I am still trying to figure out why it wont work as well as lines scribed on the staff?
Since the picture I have added a lock screw to the windage on this sight so we dont get that backlash problem.
Hadlee eyecup off a parker hale SMLE sight - have another same setup on my sharps - just change the eyecup over
MVA landed here proly gonna leave hamburger change out of 700bucks - importation permits and several months wait.
My homemade proly about on par with a Pedersoli - charge my time - proly didnt save anything - but I made it
299000

I wish I could make a sight like that. I can do a lot of things, but I'm not sure i could do that.
My interest in this stems from being out at the gun club a few weeks ago, the range was closed on that Sunday morning 'til noon for the "long range shoot". While I waited for those guys to finish, I thought I'd go see what was up.
Three guys, (young guys), all shooting their rifles. Muzzle brakes, bipods, rests under the butt of their rifles, scopes as big around as my leg, (spotting scope even bigger), shooting mats for their prone position, bags for their rifles, separate ammo bags, "shoot reloads? We buy all our 6.5 Creedmoor ammo."
They're shooting at 600 yards, so I asked if anyone ever came out and shot a black powder rifle. One of them looked up, laughed, and said "you couldn't hit my pickup at these ranges with that equipment". They laughed, I laughed, they're all good guys. We talked for about an hour before they were finished.
Well......I don't need to get good enough to win a match, or even come close, I just need to be able to hit a pickup at 600 yards. Or at least close enough to invite them to park their pickups out there.

:bigsmyl2:

[Tazman1602]

Art
I started out with a carbine weight sharps (repro) shooting prone at the 600yard - the gun was just 8 pounds neat, 535 grain boolit, lil skinny stock - it were not a fun experience at all - I fed the number info through one of those online recoil calculators that told me the pain was NOT my imagination at all - a couple years ago I made a 2 pound lead buttplate for that gun and laced it on with a leather pad/cover that gave me some extra comb height - now its ten pound, the buttplate area is about doubled and it dont hurt anymore. yeah its unbalanced all to heck but once I get on the line that dont matter. All I am trying to say here is if your friend picks a 45/70 get something with some weight in it (ten pound) life will be a lot more fun.
The H & R and the Henry single shot are 7 pound plinkers - in 45/70 that is gonna hurt shot prone or benched another good argument for the 38/55 I guess.

100% agreed! I’ve never had a chance to shoot the H&R but I’d guess it wouldn’t be pain free. The problem for me is that….I have the shortest LOP ever known. Someday I’m gonna die, kids will sell my guns and someone is going to think they got a real sweet deal…..right up until they shoulder it and then they’re going to say “what midget owned that?” Wife used to call me Popeyes when we met….

I shoot a bunch of 1886’s — the recoil doesn’t bother me but that steel buutplate hurts my bad shoulder sometimes so I use a pad. One of the heaviest I’ve shot is my Uberti 45-70 and it is a baby.

Only rifle I will not shoot is a Ruger Frontier, predecessor to the Gunsite Scout and it weighs nothing and is in 300WSM. My wife now shoots it, when I said I’d had enough she loaded it up and promptly said “this is my new elk rifle”…….it’s all hers!

Art

[greywuuf]

Trying hard to see where the OP asked what was a good competition rifle. BPCR as I understand it means Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. Unless that C is competition. Assuming that every one will or even Wants to compete seems to be the height of arrogance and Hubris. I have not shot a match since I last fired a Garand a 600 yards in uniform and likely never will again. I am however having ton of fun playing with an '86 in 45-70 and contemplating what barrel to put on this second rolling block I have. I think it would be a mistake to assume you need expensive equipment that you are not up to making use of in the first place as a "let's see if I like this" .

[BrentD]

Trying hard to see where the OP asked what was a good competition rifle. BPCR as I understand it means Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. Unless that C is competition. Assuming that every one will or even Wants to compete seems to be the height of arrogance and Hubris. I have not shot a match since I last fired a Garand a 600 yards in uniform and likely never will again. I am however having ton of fun playing with an '86 in 45-70 and contemplating what barrel to put on this second rolling block I have. I think it would be a mistake to assume you need expensive equipment that you are not up to making use of in the first place as a "let's see if I like this" .

I think you are a little over the top frankly. "BPCR" to those that compete is ""BPCR". A game and competition. If it doesn't mean that to you that's fine. But you can put your arrogance and hubris to bed. Thanks.

[FrankJD]

What is a good starting BPCR rifle to look for? It has always interested me.

This thread was started 3/9/22 and here it's 8/6/22 and the OP has yet to post again.

"Starting BPCR rifle with what kinda shooting in mind?" - that would be the first question asked, but it looks like the fickle OP might have lost interest.

"Getting into BPCR" can mean Lots of things and to a fair degree most are with good intentions.

With the loss of the H&R Buff Classic there aren't any cheap and reasonable BPCR rifles that would be worthy of entering the BPCR games. And as it was, the Buff Classic is a break open and screwing down a tang vernier puts both rear and front sights on moving planes, which is fine for sport but probably not so for comps.

The Henry single shot .45-70 is a nice rifle but too short a bbl and it's a break open, like the cheaper CVAs, etc.

For $1k or thereabouts one can find the absolute cheapest offshore sorta '74 Sharps (Chiappa, Armi Sport) that will at least make ya Look yer in the BPCR game, but with dubious quality in mind those kinda guns will be a gamble of sorts with regards to at least durability and longevity, let alone consistent accuracy.

At least with the "bottom feeder, entry level" Buff Classic one could get a foot stuck in the BPCR door for super cheap and that might lead to a Shiloh or C-Sharps or Whatever. I started with a BC a long time ago and that got me into far Far better Sharps and rollers, and great learning experiences that has still equated to lotsa fun shooting.

Are we havin' fun, yet?

Cheers,
Rob.

[Randy Bohannon]

Not true, you can do lever action silhouette and target with B/P and do very well. Modern highwall rifles are not out of line price wise. There are options if one is determined , 2nd. Place at Quigly this year was a young lady shooting a Miroku 1885 in 38-55 ,not a high dollar rifle and far sight better than the HR BC, terrible rifle for the game in anything bigger than 38-55 WCF .

[FrankJD]

Not true, you can do lever action silhouette and target with B/P and do very well. Modern highwall rifles are not out of line price wise. There are options if one is determined , 2nd. Place at Quigly this year was a young lady shooting a Miroku 1885 in 38-55 ,not a high dollar rifle and far sight better than the HR BC, terrible rifle for the game in anything bigger than 38-55 WCF .

What was the cost of the lever guns you mention? A bunch less than $1k?

An offshore hi-wall replica is still a $1000 at the least, too - I'm referencing DGW.

I don't think that most folks wanting to get into BPCR aren't looking at lever guns, I think they're mostly inspired by the falling blocks and rollers of the later part of the 19th century.

The Buff Classic is not a terrible gun for getting into the sport of BPCR, which may have been what this thread's OP was after. It IS a terrible gun for the BPCR game.