Paper Patching Adventures

[Phineas Bluster]

Deleted

[Russel Nash]

^^^ Thanks for posting that. I am pretty much a greenhorn when it comes to casting.... so I am basically just tagging this thread for later, for when/if I ever do get a Garand from the CMP.

Again, thanks! :drinks:

[SCIBUL]

Hello.
I have the same problem with 7mm bullets. I use the LEE .285 push trough sizer and have loose patches too :( . I'm gonna try a .278 bullet and see what happens...

[docone31]

I have patched .30s for about a year now.
I cast a standard .30cal boolitt.
Size to .308. I use dish soap to lubricate for sizing to .308.
I then wrap with standard computer paper for home printers.
I let dry for a day, snip the tails, wipe some JPW on them and size to .309.
I load them with 30gns of surplus 4895. I tried 25gns but got massive carbon on the neck.
I use the Lee Push Thru Sizing System, I size to .308 for both my .303 British, and .308 and 30-06.
I get clover leafs at 100yds with this technique.
I think I can see your issue. You are stressing the patch too much.
The way I do it, the main sizing is done on my prime casting, then I size the paper.
I cut my strips in 1" widths. The grain on my paper is across the sheet. I then cut my patches 2 3/16". I also use a cigarette roller. Fast and easy system.
So,
Size the prime casting to .308. Wrap with standard paper. I also like the shiney notebook paper although I have not found any performance differences. Once dry, dab a little JPW on the patch, the less the better. Too much wax seems to wet the patch and it drags in the die.
I size the patch to .309.
The nose on the .30s is .301 and just fits the bore. I have been experimenting with wrapping way up the nose. My last batch is wrapped with only the nose exposed. I want to see if this makes a difference.
Give that a try.

[docone31]

That makes me wonder, why I get the results I do.
When I wrap, I dry at least over night, although I have yet to have a patch loosen on sizing.
I spareingly use JPW, I suspect you are doing the same thing. I have found, excessive lube does make the outer patch loosen on occasion. However, it does push back and when sized is stable.
Two factors are a maybe.
Is the grain a factor? I found, on my paper, the grain goes against the width, not length.
Second, and this might be an issue.
I do not use a board, I use a cigarette roller. I get some seriously tight wraps that way. The lube lands show when the patched boolitt is removed from the roller.
So far, everyone here is patching larger boolitts, I and a couple of folks wrap the smaller ones.
I have not yet even used a board to wrap with.
I wonder if that might be an issue. When I go to size my boolitts for the final sizing, the lube lands really stick out. There is definate evidence of the lube valley.
On the one hand, it sucks you are haveing the frustrations you are getting. I feel almost guilty it has been so easy for me. I have failed miserably at firing simple cast boolitts.
I wonder if the roller has been my answer.
I lay the soaking patch on the apron of the roller, with the tip of the patch where I want it to start on the ogive. I close the roller and roll. when I open it up, the patch is damp.
I wonder, if the squeegee effect of the closed apron is affecting the patch. As the patched boolitt is rolled, the apron does get tighter. I had this issue when I rolled my own cigarettes. I rolled these tight things that did not smoke well.
I also found a lube that penetrates the patch does affect it. When I smeared the patch and used the die to spread it, I had issues. Not unwrapping, but dragging. If I used the wax that was on my hands and made the patch to be sized shiney, it slid through.
I do wrap my patches soaking wet.
Aside from that, I have no clue why I get the results I do. If I can figuire out how to post photos, I will take a shoot from start to finish. I do not even have to be that picky about alignment. If I can figuire out how to post those photos, I will definately do that.

[Slowpoke]

docone31

After honing, another batch of the boolits patched with the 16# notebook paper were sized. This time their passage through the die was much easier and smoother than the previous lot, however patches were again loose and could be easily turned on the boolit.

The second test used boolits cast in the same lot as the first and patched with 9# Meade tracing paper. These boolits were .315"-.316" in diameter as patched. After drying, these were lubed with JPW as in the first test and then sized. Results were the same, loose patches.

After these two failures the patches were removed from a few boolits of each test. It is interesting to note that the diameter of these boolits were reduced from the original diameter of .308"-.3085" to .302"-.303".

Evidently starting out with a .308" boolit and then patching and sizing is not going to work for me, therefore I think I will go with having Lee make a custom sizing die to use before patching. I believe I'll order a .300", that way if the interior finish is as rough as the .309" die I can have a bit of leeway for lapping.

Thanks for your assistance.

A few winters back I taught myself to paper patch.

+1 on your experience patching boolits.

You will also notice that the base of the sized boolit will be rough, wavy and your boolit has gained some length .

If you will re patch that boolit and run it thru the sizer, you will have a usable patched boolit. Maybe your gun will except it as is.

If you still want or need a smaller diameter try three wraps and then size and you will probably have a .300 or .301 boolit.

I did this until I found the correct diameter for acceptable accuracy then I had Buckshot make me a nose first sizer like the Lee. Faster turn around.

I still patch a few for grins, but regular grease groove does everything I need from a cast boolit so far.

All my patches are cut with the grain or fiber not across.

Have fun

[NSP64]

PB, I think I figured out your problem. I re-read all the posts and it dawned on me, Your alloy is to soft.
I use WDWW and have no problem with patches loosening after sizing. Think about it, everyone uses pure lead to slug barrels because it(pure) has NO springback. wheel weights spring back after slugging and gives a false reading.
My Lyman 3rd edition cast bullet handbook states on page 114 that BHN of PPed bullets should be 12-15 for most applications and 16-20 for loads over 2500fps. When sized your boolits are staying swagged down and not springing back.

[NSP64]

Slowpoke, isn't Buckshots sizer the cats meow? I had him make me one @.278

[NSP64]

PB, with smokeless you need your patch slugs to be BORE size after sizing. If your rifle slugs .301 bore and .308 groove you need to patch to have the final slug diameter to be .302 and wrapped size to be .310. You may have to experiment with different thicknesses of paper and # of turns in the wrap to get the right end measurements.

[yeahbub]

PB, I think docone31 may have a point with rolling and stretching the paper on. It's been my habit to cut the patches so they are about .080 short after they are wet. I wrap mine with 100% rag drafting vellum from which I cut long strips from the end of the sheet (short edge) rather than from the side (long edge). This leaves a lot of stretch-ability in the patch and the short patch can be rolled until the ends meet prefectly. These patches also shrink on and don't come loose when sized. It may be that in sizing it down, the "stretch" hasn't quite been overcome, allowing the patch to remain tight. BTW, I size them from .390 to .380, so there's a good bit of reduction in dia. The lube I use for sizing is any smearable soft boolit lube.

[pdawg_shooter]

The rule of thumb is to take the weight of the paper divided by 3 and times the number of wraps used. ie 16# divided by 3 times 2 = 10. It will add about .010 to your bullet. Different paper and different rolling styles will vary this a little but it will be close.

[Zeek]

docone31

This time their passage through the die was much easier and smoother than the previous lot, however patches were again loose and could be easily turned on the boolit.

The second test used boolits cast in the same lot as the first and patched with 9# Meade tracing paper. These boolits were .315"-.316" in diameter as patched. After drying, these were lubed with JPW as in the first test and then sized. Results were the same, loose patches.

After these two failures the patches were removed from a few boolits of each test. It is interesting to note that the diameter of these boolits' [cores] were reduced from the original diameter of .308"-.3085" to .302"-.303".

What you (and others in this thread) describe is absolutely CLASSIC. Likely, the cause is that the patch is getting impregnated with the lube before you size the boolit. NEVER let lube go into the patch!! Never! Liquid is NOT compressible, and will NOT "get out of the way" fast enough when you do your sizing stroke! The result is that the liquid-impregnated patch refuses to size down (liquid will not compress), so the core DOES size down, as you noted, resulting in a loose core-to-patch fit.

Try this instead. It works! Choose a very-stiff lube like SPG. Get your thumb and forefinger barely smeared with it. I mean BARELY AT ALL. Just roll the patch between the two digits to the point where you can barely tell that it is not bare paper. THAT is WAY PLENTY LUBE, and it is ALL on the OUTSIDE of the patch. (Hint: I do NOT like liquid lubes). When you size the boolit, the gas within the patch RUSHES out (gas is a very-low-viscosity compressible fluid that is easily displaced from the patch matrix, unlike a lube). Thus, the patch compresses until all the paper fibers are backing each other up (you cannot get more air out of it). At THAT point, the patch is "harder than lead alloy," so any addition sizing down comes from the core's sizing down. At THAT point, both-core-and-patch-sizing-down is OKAY, as both patch and core will decrease diameter parallel to each other and remain tightly fitted to each other. With too much lube, only the core decreases in diameter, creating a loose core-to-patch fit.

If you do it that way, you will find that your patch has a glossy, hard outer surface, and is very tightly fit to the core, even if the core had to size down some. THAT is what was missing from Col. Harrison's articles! I know, because it took me >25 years to find out the error in his otherwise-excellent instructions! I am quite certain that his boolits shot with excellent accuracy and he saw no need to warn us. Don't blame him. That can happen to anybody. The jewel of his gift remains adamantine (that's good) ~~~> Paper-patched boolits are where it is at! Period! He was just too damn good at it to foresee that we would screw it up with liquid (low-viscosity) paper-penetrating lubes.

Use only very-stiff waxy lubes and put on only enough to be able to tell that the paper is not bare any more. That is PLENTY for your shooting and sizing purposes. Put any "more on" and, instead, you get moron lubing!! BTDT!!! It is a very simple trick.

Most likely, Harrison lubed his PPCBs that way and never thought anything about it. Me? I used PLENTY of liquid-or-low-viscosity lube, and my PPCBs would never shoot because the patches were loose. I'm very glad that I just let the project lay dogo until I gained enough perspective (from applying soil physics and hydrogeology in my work life) that the answer just flat slapped me in the face. The embarrassing part is that I was in graduate school studying those very topics when I tried Harrison's approach and failed to get it to fly. Like they say, "Live and learn sure beats the alternative!"

Cheer up! Things are going to work from now on. That problem will now behind us.
Regards, Zeek