BHN and up for Brown bear protection?

[Rifleman1st]

I don't cast and a lot on these pages is greek to me. My Son will be working for the Nat'l Park service in Alaska this summer. He'll be carrying a Glock 10mm for bear defense. I want to load him a bunch of hard cast ammo to practice with and carry. I see the Commercial manufacturers advertise their cast bullets are BHN 20 or 22. I can't find bullets this hard anywhere as reloading components. Does anyone have a source? Is a bullet that hard necessary?

Thanks

[cwlongshot]

Lino type gets ya that hard.

Its penetrates cause it dosent deform.

When bullets get that hard they tend to be brittle. Esp when pushed at the pressures of the 10mm. But the 10probably wont cause them to break. Just saying real hard bullets can be brittle.

Sorry no advice for a source. I cast my own.

CW

[Misery-Whip]

Try Penn bullets

I've used them in the past. You will have to call for what alloy he has.

[justindad]

Never hunted bear, but read a story once of a .44 Mag hollow point failing to puncture a brown bear’s skull. Hard lead, flat point breaks bones.
*
How you get the hardness matters. Adding tin increases hardness a little but maintains toughness & ductility. Antimony increases hardness more, but makes it brittle. If it’s too hard with no tin, might still fail to break bones as it fragments.
*
I guess what I’m saying is that whatever you chose either needs to be tested, or proven out by a reliable source. Might call Buffalo Bore or Underwood Ammo for their input.

[Jim22]

Huh. Will the Park Service allow him to carry a pistol - or to shoot a bad bear? I don't like handguns for self defense - against bears or people. They are low powered and are difficult to shoot well. I will admit that I carried a handgun for many of the 28 years I lived in Alaska. I never wanted to use it. I have seen bears killed - including brown or grizzly bears. They don't die easily - especially if they are worked up.

Jim

[lightman]

I don't think any of the bigger name bullet companies make a hard lead bullet. I'm talking Hornady, Speer, Nosler, Sierra, Remington or Winchester. I would try any one of the commercial companies that sell cast bullets. Their alloys are usually pretty hard.

[dverna]

I believe most commercial lead bullets are made from 92-2-6 alloy. It will have a hardness of about 16.

Linotype will be about 22.

[Rickf1985]

Personally if I were carrying a pistol to protect myself and others as he will be doing it would be a larger pistol in a magnum caliber. On top of that I would be using commercial ammo. Nothing against reloads but lead loads in an auto sometimes do not feed and on top of that, a 10 mm auto you can only go so big on the bullet. Most guides up there will carry a 44 mag with huge bullets. Revolvers may be old school but they are Keep It Simple Stupid dependable. And you can use larger and heavier bullets. Something needed to stop a large bear. I hope he has the training needed to never have too use the gun on a bear but if he does he needs one big enough for the job.

[centershot]

Don is correct on the BHN's. IF he insists on carrying a handgun, a 44 mag or Ruger 45 Colt loaded to the gills would be the minimum I would carry for bear protection, and I wouldn't feel comfortable about it. IMO, a 12 gauge loaded with Brenneke's would make me feel a whole lot better! And if you carry it on a single point sling, it's always readily at hand if you need it.

But, you asked about hard cast boolits, so......in a ternary alloy, if you keep the tin and antimony in equilibrium (equal percentages) you will have an alloy that is tough without unnecessary hardness. This avoids the boolit shattering, as linotype is prone to, when it hits something solid, like big bones. For my handgun and light rifle loads, up to 15-1600 fps, I use 94-3-3. It casts beautifully and doesn't lead my bores. Over 1600, I use Lyman #2 (90-5-5) or I water-drop the 94-3-3 alloy, whichever works best. Lyman #2 is BHN 16, that should be hard (and tough) enough for most things. You do not want the boolit to shatter, so think about a "tough" boolit, rather than a "hard" boolit. Hardness is NOT necessarily our friend!

The last I knew, the Montana Bullet Co. would cast most anything you wanted, they're good people. Penn Bullets was mentioned, another good company. I'm not sure if Robert uses anything but Hardball alloy (92-6-2) which might be a bit on the brittle side. Give him an e-mail and check it out.

And, YES, I was serious about the shotgun! I'll be d****d if I'll be trusting my life to a f*****g seni-auto handgun in that situation!

[Wheelguns 1961]

Try Penn bullets

I've used them in the past. You will have to call for what alloy he has.
Robert Palermo from Penn Bullets has passed on.http://https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/triblive-tribune-review/name/robert-palermo-obituary?id=31944354

[Dieselhorses]

I think I'd find a way to tote the ole .500 S&W loaded with 440 or 700 grainers (just my 2 cents!)

[Winger Ed.]

That's some tough country up there, and even tougher critters-
like the occasional mountain lion that wants to eat your horse.

I'd be more inclined to wear a S&W or Ruger .44Mag with some sort of high end self defense ammo,
and also have a Stainless Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 slung over my shoulder.
Rumor has it that bears have a very poor sense of humor, especially when they're wounded.

[M-Tecs]

Some actual occurrences of handgun usage and the effectiveness of various calibers. A marginal caliber in hand bets a thumper left in the truck or the cabin every time. Working and carrying very large handguns and or rifles or shotguns gets old really quick.

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/#axzz7McCBDofx

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, so to actually answer your question, yes there are sources of 22 BHN bullets. The best of the best I know of is Montana bullets. They are expensive, but the best quality. They get the hardness by heat treating, which makes them less brittle than using a super hard alloy. Plain base is fine, but you might as well buy the gas check versions since the cost difference is minimal, and you won't be shooting a ton of them. I'd try both of the following, and see which shoots more accurately. You get multiple options for size. The best thing is to slug the barrel of the gun you will use them in, and choose one slightly larger. If not, .401" shoots good in most 10mm auto's.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-noe-200gr-wfn-gc/

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/3840-10mm-40-lbt-200gr-lfn-gc/

[Markopolo]

I cast the Lee 310 bullet pretty hard but not so hard it gets brittle… also anything you can load in your 10mm that is heavy with a flat point should do what you want… invest in a chest holster to be compatible with waders and practice getting the gun to bear…( no pun intended) be bear aware at ALL TIMES.

[beshears]

When I took a tour of Admiralty they carried .458 bolt actions.

[popper]

WDWW with 1% copper added will do the best for 10mm. Recovered hot 165gr TC 40sw shot 5 ft into frozen road chat rock pile. It is not brittle and BHN about 30. Probably need a pointy bullet for penetration through bear hide/bone. Shot a 150ish # hog in the rear, broke front leg and most of jaw. No recovered bullet. I used that alloy in 300BO carbine, 145gr PB @ 2K fps and MOA @ 100 yds. Hard and tough alloy that doesn't shatter. The ones on left look beat up but 90% weight retention. Some 9mm fmj ( found on the surface of the pile) and bottom is what was left from 308W 165gr that cut steel yard sign wire in half - and all I found of the bullet - basically the GC. I don't know how copper solids would work, we don't have many bears in Texas. Penetration and velocity needed, not expansion. If you can shoot a 10mm well, should do the trick for SD.
297151

[centershot]

Robert Palermo from Penn Bullets has passed on.http://https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/triblive-tribune-review/name/robert-palermo-obituary?id=31944354

I am sorry to hear this. I haven't spoken to him for a number of years now, but the last time we talked he had just undergone surgery for cancer. He was always a gentleman and willing to help with any questions I had.

[DougGuy]

The name Oregon Laser Cast comes to mind as they have a reputation for higher BHN if my memory serves me correctly.

a 10mm in a vehicle worn in a holster might be okay but once you step out and into the wild, if it were me, that 10 would stay in the truck and I would MUCH rather have a way heavier boolit in a stout revolver, and practice with it until you/he can empty it and control it as fast as can be done accurately.

None of the hand cannons match a 12ga slug. You want the baddest bear medicine available? There it is.

[725]

Agree with the low/marginal opinion of a 10 mm (which I love, by the way) as brown bear medicine. Black bear, cat, no problem. Of course it all depends on landing the bullet where it counts. Fear, tunnel vision, & unexpected speed of the confrontation are big factors that spoil accuracy. A very good chest holster is a must in my way of thinking. So, .......... if it's a 10 mm, practice with any ammo you can get and don't worry about hardness. Practice, practice & practice some more. When it's time to go to work, load some hot commercially made ammo. Shoot several boxes of that to ensure it functions through the pistol reliably and that there are no surprises with it. A good 10 ga or 12 ga is cheap life insurance considering what's at stake. Some years ago I had a good friend mauled by an angry griz. He's lucky to be alive. He happened to save himself with a hot 41 mag. When he fianally cleared the hospital (many life flights, operations and reconstructions) he bought a .454 Casaul. Wheel guns are limited to volume, but they don't stove pipe, fail to feed, fail to eject or fail to go into battery. If revolvers don't go off, you just pull the trigger again.

Any gun "can" do the job. The 1953 world record was taken with a single shot .22 loaded with .22 longs! Not even long rifles! Best advice, however, is bring enough gun.

[longbow]

No personal experience with handguns and bears but I tend to agree with above comments on the 10mm being a bit light for bears... especially big bears. If your son plans on carrying a 10mm I'd be inclined to tell him to use commercial ammunition like:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=571
https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-220-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose.html

Otherwise I'm in the bigger is better camp... and with heavy hard boolits. I'd be carrying a 12 ga. with hard cast slugs, Brennneke or similar or a Marlin 1895 .45-70, and handgun as secondary that I would always have with me since, yes at times a long gun may be left behind.

Just my opinion.

Longbow

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I remember watching a hunting video where the guide warned the hunter to be quiet after he shot the brown bear. Told him if he only wounded it the bear would come for him if he figured out where he was was. Ornery critters once you hurt them. I am glad to not have them in these parts as i like spending time in the woods.

[Kosh75287]

The best alloy I/we developed for casting hard bullets with some capacity for heat treating was:
Antimony (Sb) 5.0 - 5.5 wt. %
Arsenic (As) 0.25 wt. %
Tin (Sn) 2.0 - 2.5% wt.%
Lead (Pb) 91.75 - 92.25 wt.%
Bullet embrittlement is a risk when Antimony is near or above 6%. Staying ~10% under THAT maximum, plus adding the Arsenic (no pleasant matter) makes the bullets respond well to heat treatment. MY strategy was to cast and dunk them straight into room-temperature water. My fellow shooters worked up some really elegant protocols for heat-treating and developed some superb bullets. My water-quenched ones filled out great, weighed well, tumble-lubed well, and shot better than I could. Worked well on bowling pins!

[Evoken]

Take a look at mastercast bullets, enon valley, Pa.

They make and sell commercial hard cast. They advertise 22bhn. I do not use their boolits, but I use some of their alloy and it is some really hard stuff. I cut it down with soft lead big time unless I need some really hard thumpers.

I cannot comment on weather your son will have enough gun or not so I will not.

[Rifleman1st]

Ok, so to actually answer your question, yes there are sources of 22 BHN bullets. The best of the best I know of is Montana bullets. They are expensive, but the best quality. They get the hardness by heat treating, which makes them less brittle than using a super hard alloy. Plain base is fine, but you might as well buy the gas check versions since the cost difference is minimal, and you won't be shooting a ton of them. I'd try both of the following, and see which shoots more accurately. You get multiple options for size. The best thing is to slug the barrel of the gun you will use them in, and choose one slightly larger. If not, .401" shoots good in most 10mm auto's.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-noe-200gr-wfn-gc/

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/3840-10mm-40-lbt-200gr-lfn-gc/

Thank you for someone finally answering my question. I get everyone has an opinion. I was charged by a wounded Black bear. He soaked up 9 rounds of 44 mag 240 grain hollow points before he fell at my feet. Now mind you, he was wounded the night before and after the first 6 he slowed way down and wobbled but he was still coming! A speed loader dump and he finally fell at my feet. So yes, I would rather have my Son carry 16 rounds of hard cast 10mm than 6 rounds of 44 mag.

[Rifleman1st]

I cast the Lee 310 bullet pretty hard but not so hard it gets brittle… also anything you can load in your 10mm that is heavy with a flat point should do what you want… invest in a chest holster to be compatible with waders and practice getting the gun to bear…( no pun intended) be bear aware at ALL TIMES.

I bought him a leather chest holster and I plan to train with him often before he leaves. This is why I want a good source of the bullets he'll be carrying.

[Rifleman1st]

Take a look at mastercast bullets, enon valley, Pa.

They make and sell commercial hard cast. They advertise 22bhn. I do not use their boolits, but I use some of their alloy and it is some really hard stuff. I cut it down with soft lead big time unless I need some really hard thumpers.

I cannot comment on weather your son will have enough gun or not so I will not.

Thank you for your recommendation. Too many opinions and not enough posts like yours. thank you!

[Rifleman1st]

Montana Bullet company was the trick. Thanks for all your opinions but I own 2 44 mags and a custom Ruger Super Blackhawk in .50AE. I carry my 10 mm with 16 rounds when in bear country and so will my son. unless he's already on top of you you pull the trigger and keep pulling the trigger. I was lucky enough to do a speed loader dump when I was charged by a black bear.. He took 9 rounds of 44 mag before he fell at my feet. 16 rounds of 200 grain hard cast vs. 6 rounds of 240? I pick 16 rounds every time.....

[Greg S]

Cast Perforance Bullets. Granted, there have been some big park bears but the coastal areas they are bigger. I prefer a rifle with 375 H&H as a starting caliber but wouldn't pass on a 12 with Breneke KOs.

Back in the early 0s, I did alot of bridge work from Healy to about 90 miles south.

[fredj338]

Ok, so to actually answer your question, yes there are sources of 22 BHN bullets. The best of the best I know of is Montana bullets. They are expensive, but the best quality. They get the hardness by heat treating, which makes them less brittle than using a super hard alloy. Plain base is fine, but you might as well buy the gas check versions since the cost difference is minimal, and you won't be shooting a ton of them. I'd try both of the following, and see which shoots more accurately. You get multiple options for size. The best thing is to slug the barrel of the gun you will use them in, and choose one slightly larger. If not, .401" shoots good in most 10mm auto's.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-noe-200gr-wfn-gc/

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/3840-10mm-40-lbt-200gr-lfn-gc/

^^THIS^^ I make my own, but if looking for 10mm hardcast, I would go there. Though I would skip the gc & go coated. Plenty fine for 1200fps.
I like the 10mm for lower 48 as a trail gun but would prefer a bit more gun in big bear alaska. I dont want to count on a mag dump at the distance that most bears are shot in SD.

[vikingsword7]

Rimrock bullets in Polson MT is also top notch.

[gc45]

I worked in Alaska off and on for years, seen the destruction these bears can do and would never be in Grizz country with a 10mm. I feel sorry for your Son having to do so..Someone is blowing smoke at him and you know where....

[Rickf1985]

I spent a LOT of time around black bears. I was never charged nor did I ever even have a violent encounter with one other than a couple of false charges. During the summer they would be around our cabin all the time since it was the main watering hole area. So needless to say I was up close and personal with a lot of fairly large bears. Now, with that said, My wife's cousin lives out in Montana and he had at one time a bear rehab facility. He had two grizzlies that he raised from cubs that could not be returned to the wild since they had been in human hands since birth so he had a very large area for them. They were quite tame but they liked to play. "Play" for an 800 lb. bear can be a bit intimidating for a 215 lb. human!!!! When I first got up next to this thing I thought I was going to die! He put his paw out to "Shake" like a dog and it is an experience I will never forget. I have large hands and his claws alone were as long as my hands. His actual feet were twice the size of my hand.
So, Comparing shooting a black to a grizz is like apples to oranges.
And as a park Ranger he will have to know that you cannot simply shoot a bear because it is looking at you like it wants to eat you. He has to try to scare it away with all other means first. Shooting is the absolute last resort, even in Alaska. And if that last resort happens he will have seconds. I do not own a 10mm so I cannot attest to the power of one but it should be on par with a 45? The other thing to think about is moving parts in an auto pistol vs. a revolver. When was the last time you heard of a revolver jamming?

Since I have never faced an angry grizzly I have no practical experience to go by, hope I never gain it either. But these are just a few personal experiences I have had with black bears compared to grizzlies to think about.

One thing as an afterthought, You said he soaked up 9 rounds. Question is did any of those 9 rounds hit anything vital?

[sixshot]

I really enjoy these & I guess there is really no wrong answer unless you are unarmed! A neighbor of mine of badly mauled by a black bear several years ago & only by the shot of a lifetime by his dad with a bow (bear was charging) did they both survive. He was kneeling when it happened & she was on him before he could even move!
First a gun has to be handy, real handy, a charging bear can cover 40 yds in around 2 seconds! Most people can't even get the safety off in that much time, so where the gun is kept is important. A good place is a chest holster, center chest. The one I use is made by Simply Rugged (Rob Leahy) a former Alaskan. Fast & Simple & the other thing is, a bear isn't impressed with misses in the mud! Some people simply can't shoot a big gun, at least not very fast so use a gun that suits you because you are only going to get a limited number of shots at a bear blowing through the brush, willows, alders at mach1V & you can hardly see it & what you can see is mostly head.
A 10mm loaded with 200 gr cast loads at 1200 fps isn't a bad choice for many, it wouldn't be my first choice but its controllable for many with pretty fast recovery & multiple shots, not bad, not bad. I would opt for a 44 or 45 myself but that's what I've shot all my life so I'm more in my comfort zone with them & I can shoot them very fast, even single action, cocking with the left thumb while firing right handed. It does take practice but so does any shooting skill, you just have to work at it.
Also you have to be smart enough to have your gun loaded, I mean condition 1, read to fire when you draw it because there won't be any time to draw it, rack the slide & get yourself ready for a little body contact, just saying! You're either ready or you're not.

Dick

[Rifleman1st]

I spent a LOT of time around black bears. I was never charged nor did I ever even have a violent encounter with one other than a couple of false charges. During the summer they would be around our cabin all the time since it was the main watering hole area. So needless to say I was up close and personal with a lot of fairly large bears. Now, with that said, My wife's cousin lives out in Montana and he had at one time a bear rehab facility. He had two grizzlies that he raised from cubs that could not be returned to the wild since they had been in human hands since birth so he had a very large area for them. They were quite tame but they liked to play. "Play" for an 800 lb. bear can be a bit intimidating for a 215 lb. human!!!! When I first got up next to this thing I thought I was going to die! He put his paw out to "Shake" like a dog and it is an experience I will never forget. I have large hands and his claws alone were as long as my hands. His actual feet were twice the size of my hand.
So, Comparing shooting a black to a grizz is like apples to oranges.
And as a park Ranger he will have to know that you cannot simply shoot a bear because it is looking at you like it wants to eat you. He has to try to scare it away with all other means first. Shooting is the absolute last resort, even in Alaska. And if that last resort happens he will have seconds. I do not own a 10mm so I cannot attest to the power of one but it should be on par with a 45? The other thing to think about is moving parts in an auto pistol vs. a revolver. When was the last time you heard of a revolver jamming?

Since I have never faced an angry grizzly I have no practical experience to go by, hope I never gain it either. But these are just a few personal experiences I have had with black bears compared to grizzlies to think about.

One thing as an afterthought, You said he soaked up 9 rounds. Question is did any of those 9 rounds hit anything vital?

7 rounds center mass one round through his front paw, I assume it was raised as he was running and the finishing shot behind his ear.

[Rifleman1st]

I worked in Alaska off and on for years, seen the destruction these bears can do and would never be in Grizz country with a 10mm. I feel sorry for your Son having to do so..Someone is blowing smoke at him and you know where....

I feel sorry for you as well.


have a good day.

[white eagle]

I would not carry a 10mm for bear defense but that is just me
there are companies that do make hard cast for the 10mm ,can't think of their name rite now though
many bear have been killed with lesser but the situation in which you would need to defend against an enraged bear I personally would want a caliber that started with a 4, would rather have a Marlin Guide gun chambered in 45-70 loaded with 500 gr boolits probably keep the 10mm in case the bear didn't see things my way

[AlaskaMike]

Montana Bullet company was the trick. Thanks for all your opinions but I own 2 44 mags and a custom Ruger Super Blackhawk in .50AE. I carry my 10 mm with 16 rounds when in bear country and so will my son. unless he's already on top of you you pull the trigger and keep pulling the trigger. I was lucky enough to do a speed loader dump when I was charged by a black bear.. He took 9 rounds of 44 mag before he fell at my feet. 16 rounds of 200 grain hard cast vs. 6 rounds of 240? I pick 16 rounds every time.....

I've been really happy with Montana Bullet's coated 200 gr WFN bullets in my Springfield XDM. It's a good heavy for caliber bullet that will penetrate well.

I'm guessing these are the same ones you've been looking at.
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-noe-200gr-wfn-pb/

[fredj338]

I worked in Alaska off and on for years, seen the destruction these bears can do and would never be in Grizz country with a 10mm. I feel sorry for your Son having to do so. Someone is blowing smoke at him and you know where....

The full power 10 with a good WNFP @ 1200fps is an effective round. The bullet wont likely stop inside a bear broadside, plenty of penetration. So while I prefer a 44mag or heavy 45colt, I wouldn't feel naked with a full power 10 & proper bullets. Though I have only seen grizz in Montana, but anything in your hands seems small when facing a dangerous animal over 500#. Hunting Cape buff with a 404j, still had me wondering, even though both bulls were taken with a single shot, one did run a good 100y or so, fortunately the other way.
Back to bullet hardness, I wouldn't necessarily want a super hard bullet. If you have to break bones, bullet might be too brittle.

[Rickf1985]

This thread just seems to keep on going on. One thing I have not seen mentioned and I am quite sure has already been addressed by the young man is the fact that he will be working for the Alaska Park Service. I am pretty sure they are the ones who would be the experts on whether his 10 mm is big enough to get the job done since I am pretty sure that with the exception of a few wilderness guides the Rangers have probably had to face more bears than anyone. I have also noticed a few replies from people from that area and I would pay closer attention to what they have to say than I would to most of us guessers.[smilie=f:
Rifleman, I hope your son has a safe and productive summer up there. That is some of the prettiest country in the world and being a Ranger he will get to see some of it that the rest of us will never get to see. I envy him.
That said, he may still need a small 9mm for the mosquitos!

[brassrat]

I love the bear talk and keep a ten round supply of Black Magic rounds just in case any find their way into the NE.

[megasupermagnum]

I love the bear talk and keep a ten round supply of Black Magic rounds just in case any find their way into the NE.

Those are old news. What you really need is the magnum crush. 656 grains at 1600 fps, I wouldn't even think of stepping out my door with less power than that.

[murf205]

"That said, he may still need a small 9mm for the mosquitos!"

That's a fact! On my first trip to Alaska I learned quickly to get a bottle of Cutters insect repellent and keep it in my pocket at all times. Those 'skeeters out on the muskeg and tundra are ferocious and they are thick. Get him a head net cause they have an affinity for eyes too.

Rifleman, you have been advised for almost everything except getting your brakes re-done. Your choice is hard to argue with since your son will have duties that preclude carrying a long gun, I will wager. As a police officer told me one time, "no one who ever got into a gunfight ever wished they had less rounds" or words to that effect. God's speed to both of you, I wish I could go with him. If he loves the outdoors, and I assume he does, he is in for a life altering experience.

[Rickf1985]

298451
I can tell you that when I drove a truck up the Alcan highway and back in the 70's most of the road was not paved. It was a slow, pothole filled and tire changing nightmare. No roadside assistance there, you did your own work. I found out real fast about the mosquitos!!! Being from New Jersey I thought I knew mosquitos and having just come from Vietnam I figured no mosquito was going to bother me. I was wrong on all counts!!!!!