Is Black Powder Hard on Guns?

[Castaway]

I had to return my El Patron (45 Colt) by Uberti. Second time this has happened. The first time, the barrel wasn’t indexed properly and it shot left. After it arrived at Benelli, I got a call from the Uberti gunsmith who stated the gas cutting was the worst he’d ever seen and asked what what I’d been shooting in it. I could honestly say two boxes of “cowboy” loads and close to a thousand of black powder. Shortly afterwards, I got a new pistol courtesy of Uberti. This time, the area around the firing pin hole had peened to the point that primers flowed into the void and would bind the cylinder. This particular model didn’t have a recoil plate. I know the pressures are low, but has anyone else experienced similar problems?

[Lead pot]

Are you using Pyrodex powder and setting it off with a mag pistol primer?

The reason I ask is, a guy at our range is in this Cowboy shooting and he uses Pyrodex and sets it off with a mag primer in his .44-40 Uberty and he had a squib load and the primer pushed a gas check bullet and stuck it in the barrel. He used a short dowel and knocked the revolver on the bench with the dowel to break the bullet loose in the barrel. The gas check was soldered to the bore from the gas cuts that hot primer. I could see that forcing cone also has what looked like gas cuts. I mentioned that to him and he said that he had to get a cone reamer and smoothen it out last year.

[HWooldridge]

BP builds up a high level of solids fouling so moving parts can bind up with extended shooting. Overall pressures are generally lower than most smokeless powders (there are exceptions depending on specific loads).

Your problem sounds mechanical rather than something based on ammo type.

[Don McDowell]

There's a number of reasons why the Italian imports are "cheaper", and none of them have anything to do with the type of powder one might shoot thru it.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

There's a number of reasons why the Italian imports are "cheaper", and none of them have anything to do with the type of powder one might shoot thru it.

What he said....
If Colt could make a revolver that didn't exhibit gas cutting 150 years ago then Uberti "should" be able to today. I own three Uberti firearms and they all needed work to function properly. If black powder is causing gas cutting on the top strap of a modern revolver then there is a metallurgy problem. Incorrect/no heat treating , the frame was cast from melted paper clips.....?

[Lead pot]

The gap between the cylinder and the cone is wider on the original colts. My 25 S&W and Colt Anaconda will bind up before they're empty with the first six fired.

[sharps4590]

I'll second what Don and DAVID said. 3 Uberti percussion revolvers in the last two years and I had to fix every one of them before I could shoot them.

[Castaway]

Lead Pot, no substitutes here. Nothing but black powder and standard primers.

[Dave T]

I have a small but nice collection of USFA single action revolvers, most of which have the old style black powder frame. In those guns I only shoot full power, black power ammunition; ~36g of FFFg, a 253g RNFP cast in 20-1 alloy, and lubed with SPG. After hundreds of rounds through three of them (over 1000 through my favorite, a 4-3/4") there is no evidence of gas cutting or other damage caused by the black powder being burned.

Dave

[Lead pot]

Lead Pot, no substitutes here. Nothing but black powder and standard primers.

Then it's time to switch to the Ruger. :D

[MichaelR]

I’ve owned 5 Italian guns over the years. I regret buying every one of them. Soft parts, poor metal, and poor workmanship. Waste of money.

[indian joe]

I’ve owned 5 Italian guns over the years. I regret buying every one of them. Soft parts, poor metal, and poor workmanship. Waste of money.

maybe its time to make a connection between price paid and quality expectations??????

[Lead pot]

I had a Pedersoli Quigley when Cabelas first stocked them. I shot it for maybe a little over a year and the hammer looked like the head of a star drill after using it with a 2 pound hammer for five years without dressing the mushroom off.
You get what you pay for it.

[Thundermaker]

maybe its time to make a connection between price paid and quality expectations??????

Maybe, but that connection doesn't come out to $2000 for a decent single action.

I'd be interested to hear about any experiences with modern-made Colts using black powder.

[bedbugbilly]

I must be the "red headed stepchild". I have been shooting for close to 60 years and have owned a lot of cap and ball revolvers during that time. I currently own many C & B as as well as cartridge single actions - some Piettas but mostly Uberti. I shoot them - the cartridge versions with both smokeless and BP "cowboy level" loads and have never had an issue or problem with any of mine. Maybe I've just been "lucky" . . . but I shoot 'em and clean them well and they all are holding up well even after years of shooting. I wish I could say the same for some of the so called "modern made - better name - more expensive" revolvers and semi autos I've had.

[indian joe]

I must be the "red headed stepchild". I have been shooting for close to 60 years and have owned a lot of cap and ball revolvers during that time. I currently own many C & B as as well as cartridge single actions - some Piettas but mostly Uberti. I shoot them - the cartridge versions with both smokeless and BP "cowboy level" loads and have never had an issue or problem with any of mine. Maybe I've just been "lucky" . . . but I shoot 'em and clean them well and they all are holding up well even after years of shooting. I wish I could say the same for some of the so called "modern made - better name - more expensive" revolvers and semi autos I've had.

I have a couple of Italian cap guns originating in the late 1970's - dont shoot a thousand a week like in cowboy action but they get shot every week or three and likewise no issues - broke a couple springs (hand springs and locking bolt springs) - son has an 1860 army and a walker - both old guns - both needed some work - the walker shot loose, 55 grain loads of FFFg might been part of that, its fixed and going again - I switched him to Fg powder so he can still fillerup with a bit less strain. The 1860 Army stripped the gears on the barrel part of the loading lever ratchet - above my paygrade at the time to fix that properly so I made a remmy style loading lever for it - had to drill a pivot point for it - made it look enough like the original you need to be 5 yards or closer to notice - been to numerous shoots since and nobody has spotted it. Loading lever will never cause trouble again.

[Thundermaker]

I have a couple of Italian cap guns originating in the late 1970's - dont shoot a thousand a week like in cowboy action but they get shot every week or three and likewise no issues - broke a couple springs (hand springs and locking bolt springs) - son has an 1860 army and a walker - both old guns - both needed some work - the walker shot loose, 55 grain loads of FFFg might been part of that, its fixed and going again - I switched him to Fg powder so he can still fillerup with a bit less strain. The 1860 Army stripped the gears on the barrel part of the loading lever ratchet - above my paygrade at the time to fix that properly so I made a remmy style loading lever for it - had to drill a pivot point for it - made it look enough like the original you need to be 5 yards or closer to notice - been to numerous shoots since and nobody has spotted it. Loading lever will never cause trouble again.

Thing is, none of those guns have a top strap to get gas cutting on. Makes me wonder if there wasn't more thought put into that design than we give credit for.

[HWooldridge]

Thing is, none of those guns have a top strap to get gas cutting on. Makes me wonder if there wasn't more thought put into that design than we give credit for.

I agree - Sam Colt gained plenty of experience during the years after the Paterson came out and had plenty of opportunity to move to a top strap design with subsequent models. Colt (and Remington) percussion revolvers were intentionally designed with function in mind.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I must be the "red headed stepchild". I have been shooting for close to 60 years and have owned a lot of cap and ball revolvers during that time. I currently own many C & B as as well as cartridge single actions - some Piettas but mostly Uberti. I shoot them - the cartridge versions with both smokeless and BP "cowboy level" loads and have never had an issue or problem with any of mine. Maybe I've just been "lucky" . . . but I shoot 'em and clean them well and they all are holding up well even after years of shooting. I wish I could say the same for some of the so called "modern made - better name - more expensive" revolvers and semi autos I've had.

My experience would echo this post. I own several Uberti cartridge models and several BP models, and have experienced trouble with none of them. I don't claim to shoot any particular one extensively as I spread the joy around, but collectively shoot them a lot and the worst problem has been a loose screw here and there.

Personally, I think Uberti and Pietta products are well made and a good buy for the money, but perhaps they are experiencing a lapse in quality control over the last few years as Taurus did for awhile. My newest are about 5 years old.

DG

[Springfield]

2 of my Uberti '72 Opentops had the firing pin hole problem, had them both welded up, we'll see if the problem comes back. My other 2 have even more cartridges through them and no problem.
I shot couple of Uberti SAA's for 4 years with strictly BP, and now my daughter has been shooting them for the last 5 years, no problems at all. The Italian guns aren't the best quality in the world, but they aren't total junk either, and yes, you do get what you pay for, usually.

[DaveM]

The only major problem I've had with my Uberti lever actions have been screws made from cheese that were over-torqued at the factory. I drilled out several of them in my mill and replaced them with hardened screws from VTI Gun Parts.

I do have an Uberti 1862 Pocket Police that has been trouble from day one, however.

[omgb]

I have had two Italian cap gun with no issues. I shoot BP in my 32-20 S&W with no issues either. BP burns slower than smokeless and at considerably lower pressure. It should not gas cut a frame...ever. As to that Perdersoli hammer, I can't explain that. My two Pedersoli rifles have no signs of wear almost two decades later. Not saying the other guy is wrong, just that my experience differed. I think your pistol is a lemon. Pietta tends to be like Armi Sport; a tad on the budget side. Uberti and Pedersoli are at the top of the pack. Funny thing is, they are all made in the same valley in Italy.

[BillKilgore]

Black powder is also extremely corrosive. BP is about 10% sulfur. When the powder ignites, you have an extremely hot mixture of sulfuric acid pushing the bullet. It sounds like the Italian clones don't hold up well to the BP environment.

I have no experience with the Italian clones. How do they fare with smokeless powder?

[omgb]

The corrosiveness of BP is only a factor where moisture is concerned. In dry weather, it’s not very corrosive at all. Gas cutting requires high temps and high pressure. BP generates neither.


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[Thundermaker]

Black powder is also extremely corrosive. BP is about 10% sulfur. When the powder ignites, you have an extremely hot mixture of sulfuric acid pushing the bullet. It sounds like the Italian clones don't hold up well to the BP environment.

I have no experience with the Italian clones. How do they fare with smokeless powder?

No, just no. That's not what "corrosive" means, and there's no sulfuric acid. You don't get sulfuric acid when you burn black powder. If you did, no gun would last long with it, regardless of the location of manufacture.

[omgb]

I was trying to just not comment on that acid comment. There is an acidic compound formed when the fouling mixes with water but the real corrosion happens due to the potassium salts working in conjunction with atmospheric moisture on the barrel steel.


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[Thundermaker]

I was trying to just not comment on that acid comment. There is an acidic compound formed when the fouling mixes with water but the real corrosion happens due to the potassium salts working in conjunction with atmospheric moisture on the barrel steel.


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I felt a need to. It's frighteningly easy for untruths to become "common knowledge". Just look at the debates on headspace.

In any case, It seems that the OP just got a lemon.

[gunther]

A 35 year old stainless Old Army; 30 grains of 3f for targets, 43 grains of 4f for hunting. Mostly .457 round ball, a Lyman 45468 (175 grains), or a Saeco 130, sized to .452. It shows very light gas cutting after 1000-1200 rounds. About half the diameter of a very small paper clip.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=omgb;5371696]I have had two Italian cap gun with no issues. I shoot BP in my 32-20 S&W with no issues either. BP burns slower than smokeless and at considerably lower pressure. It should not gas cut a frame...ever.

except that it can / does, we have two old cap guns with definite gas cutting erosion mark on the cylinder pivot pin - if you doubt this have a look at pictures of a walker colt shot at night with a full load - if there is normal cylinder gap the sheet of flame out the side is awesome - along with that goes some powder residue at considerable force. I foolishly got my left hand up along the side of an 1860 army trying to bench test it one time - tattoo mark in my thumb from blasted powder residue took about three months to disappear - will not happen again.!

[omgb]

I do know about blow by and I do have some pitting on the top strap of my Uberti Remington, but it’s not deep and I’ve been shooting that gun since the 90s. Neither of my Old Army revolvers show anything more than a dark streak. One is blue, the other stainless.


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[greenjoytj]

Black powder is also extremely corrosive. BP is about 10% sulfur. When the powder ignites, you have an extremely hot mixture of sulfuric acid pushing the bullet.


I have read that BP fouling tests as a base pH higher than 7.0 and changes red litmus paper to blue colour.
I have not tested my fouling to know if it is an acid or base, I got to get some litmus paper.

Mike Venturino says the fouling is a base and uses Friendship Speed juice a diluted Windex with vinegar solution to neutralize the base pH of the BP fouling.

I know if I leave my shinny BP fired brass soaking in its own waste fouling too long the brass turns dark. It does not get shinier like it does if left soaking in a citric acid solution in my tumbler.

Their is just so much myth surrounding the use of BP in cartridges firearms and the Internet propagates so well. The discussion of Muzzle loaders with BP is even worse, people will defend a ridiculous position like religion.