Optimal Speed?

[Jevyod]

I had cast some, but due to getting married, having a child, etc. I got out of it. I am thinking of getting a few from GT bullets to try in my 358 Winchester. They have a 220 grain hollow point cast from 3% tin, 3% antimony, 94% lead. What would be the optimal speed for these? Target would be deer at 20-200 yards. I am thinking 2000fps may be about right but not sure. (may be too fast for deer in close??) Second thing I am not sure about is the gun gas a 1:12 twist. Will that limit my ability to get these up to 2000 fps? Something about RPM thresh hold? (Sorry, do not understand that one so much)

[Thumbcocker]

Are they gas checked?

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[rhemcla]

If they are gas checked you should be OK at 2,000 fps.
At 2,000 fps your bullet is doing 120k rpm so it's well below the RPM threshold which is, if I remember correctly, about 144k RPM.

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[waksupi]

I go at around 2170 fps, gives point blank to 225 yards.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

For reference:

https://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=46

“Devastating” translates into meat loss if you are a shoulder shooter. Behind the shoulder is probably fine.

2000 fps is probably doable with RL7, 3031 or something similar. What powders do you have on hand?

[Jevyod]

So yes, they are gas checked. I am a "behind the shoulder" shooter, never shot one through the shoulder. Powders on hand are Reloader 7, Winchester 748, IMR 4198

[Thumbcocker]

You should be able to get what you need with those.

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[725]

Those speed may be obtainable and by all means, go for it. I would, however approach it in a slightly different way. Do a ladder test to seek the most accurate loads and, instead, go with whatever you come up with that is the most accurate. 220 grains of flying lead will work over a wide spectrum of speed.

[todd9.3x57]

1800-1900fps should do you just fine.

i use a 35/30-30 with 200gr rcbs fn gc going roughly 1720ish fps and i killed three or four deer with it. there is also a 190gr ranch dog bullet too.

https://bullshop.weebly.com/-35-caliber-cast-bullets.html

[sharps4590]

You certainly don't need the hollow point.

[GLynn41]

I shoot the same boolit in my .358 win-- have not clocked it but with my old rifle PC ing helped a lot
pc'd they are .360 have tried H322 and Tac --using what I have- trying starting loads for 200 gr JSP- goal is same as your out to 200 yds on deer
have you weighed yours?

[quilbilly]

That alloy sounds rather hard which would make it frangible. If it is as hard as it sounds, you might want to slow down the MV a bit so won't be picking lead shards out of your teeth when at the dinner table. In my experience, a boolit that size only needs about 1000 FPS terminal velocity (probably even less) to do what you want on deer sized game. You might only need about 1600 fps at the muzzle to get that 1000 fps at 200 yards if your rifle likes that lower velocity.

[megasupermagnum]

The alloy GT uses is actually 2-2-96. It's ok, but not ideal for the job. The HP also appears relatively small, which is typical of rifle bullets. I'm going to throw out a wild guess that you are going to want at least 1300 fps to see decent expansion. I've never used that bullet, I'm just basing that on my experience testing other HP's. Based on NOE's bullet of similar design, I'm going to assume the ballistic coefficient is .301, which sounds about right. Plug that into Federal ballistics software, and I see you would want a muzzle velocity of 1750 fps to still be going over 1300 fps at 200 yards. If you go to 2100 fps, this gives you a plus or minus 3" point blank range to 200 yards. You should have no problems doing that with a 1:12 twist rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

If you use a powder in the Varget to 4831SC burning range and you clean the barrel every 8 rounds +/- you may get good hunting accuracy out to 200 yards in the 21-2300 fps range. Lots of other variables that can influence the obtainable velocity level though. Only way to know is to test. As megasupermagnum suggests the bullet with that alloy should give reasonable expansion though I prefer an impact velocity of 1500 fps with .30 - 375 calibers rifles for expansion.

Also, having actually measured the BC of numerous cast bullets by measuring the TOF with an Oehler M43, I find the actaul BCs of most cast bullets run a bit less than the computed BC. The actual BC on that GT bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps would probably run in .220 - .240.

[Good Cheer]

And sometimes that flat spot on the nose of your boolit is accidentally just right for the FPS, providing velocity retention beyond your expectations.

http://i.imgur.com/jcg4lZ6.jpg (https://imgur.com/jcg4lZ6)

In 1991 a 283 grain .375 worked that way for me; was a pleasant surprise to see how flat it was shooting.

[35 Rem]

I shoot a 200 grain from an Accurate mold mold in my 35 Remington chambered Marlin 336 carbine and get 2,070 ft/sec using IMR 4320. Since that powder has been discontinued I've started loading the same bullet with H4895 but can't recall what the velocity is with that powder. Anyhow, the 2,070 ft/sec load has worked better than I ever imagined a cast bullet could on the 3 deer I've shot with it so far. Range has been from about 60 to 100 yards and all have been broadside hits.

The 358 should move a 20 grain heavier bullet at least as fast as the 35 Rem. I'd for sure push it above 2,000 ft/sec if you want to go out to 200 yards for hunting. When using my 35 Rem, I try to set up in places where a shot beyond 100 yards is unlikely. But water jug bullet testing at 100 yards shows that there is velocity to spare as far as getting good expansion. Unfortunately my alloy is a batch that I bought so not so sure about the mix. I need to duplicate my jug tests with my latest batch cast from 50/50 CoWW/Pure Pb + 2% tin. I expect them to perform the same but you don't know until you prove it by testing.

[selmerfan]

I use the Ranch Dog 359-190-RFGCTL out of a .357 Max at 2000 fps. It's fantastic on whitetails and I haven't caught one in a deer yet, from 70-225 yards.

[Tripplebeards]

I use a 200 grain group buy HP, GC, PC at 2100 fps out if my 20” barrel Marlin 336 chambered in 35 Rem. I use 40 grains of varget. Average muzzle velocity was 2087 fps when I ran it through my chronograph. Only shot one deer with it so far. Double lung shot dropped it in its tracks and never moved. Fist size holes in and out through the ribs. The hide had boolit sized holes in and out. I used 10.4 BH 50/50 pure and COWW with 2% pewter added to the total. It’s the group I shot in my avatar with the load. Forty grains was the max book load and also shot the best in my gun with microgroove rifling. My load zeroed at 100 yards drops 9” at 200 yards and still shoots MOA at 200 yards. Haven’t tried it past 200 since that’s the farthest target set up at the local range.

Found the post with photos

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?414159-Finally-shot-a-deer-with-my-Marlin-336-and-our-200-grain-HP-group-buy!

[white eagle]

In my 358 Win I use A2015 with 250 gr jacketed and with 260 gr cast
I was getting 2300+ fps with jacketed and I use the same charge with cast unsure of the velocity with cast

[waksupi]

I use a 200 grain group buy HP, GC, PC at 2100 fps out if my 20” barrel Marlin 336 chambered in 35 Rem. I use 40 grains of varget. Average muzzle velocity was 2087 fps when I ran it through my chronograph. Only shot one deer with it so far. Double lung shot dropped it in its tracks and never moved. Fist size holes in and out through the ribs. The hide had boolit sized holes in and out. I used 10.4 BH 50/50 pure and COWW with 2% pewter added to the total. It’s the group I shot in my avatar with the load. Forty grains was the max book load and also shot the best in my gun with microgroove rifling. My load zeroed at 100 yards drops 9” at 200 yards and still shoots MOA at 200 yards. Haven’t tried it past 200 since that’s the farthest target set up at the local range.

Found the post with photos

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?414159-Finally-shot-a-deer-with-my-Marlin-336-and-our-200-grain-HP-group-buy!

You may want to reconsider using a hollow point. A cast bullet shouldn't do damage like that, and they die faster with a smaller wound channel, like a simple flat nose does.

[Tripplebeards]

I don’t know how it would die any faster. That deer slammed to ground like it got hit by a Mac truck and never flinched. Some day I’m sure I’ll try a FN but for now I’d rather loose some rib meat on broadside shots and watch them hit the ground in front of me. I tried using HP boolits out of my Ruger 77/44 with a BH of 15.4 loaded at 1750 fps. I shot three deer with them back to back. All three were broadside shots right behind the shoulders. Exact same shot placement as the 35 Rem above. Two out of the three ran close to a 120 yards with little to no blood trail before expiring. The boolits never expanded so IMO I’ve already went that route and was less than impressed with a non expanding boolit. I have a post floating around with photos of the entry and exit holes. Poked right through them like a FMJ or an arrow with a field point. Maybe a FN that is close to pure lead PC and GC would impress me but I’ll stick to HPs. I do agree that it made a lot of damage but so did the hard non expanded 15.4 bh at 1750 fps out of my 77/44 because I hit bone and the fragments acted like a rapidly expanding boolit causing ALOT of damage. More than the 35 Rem did.

Found the post…

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!

I like the extra speed of the 35 Rem. After going from 1750 fps with the 44 mag to 2100 fps with the 35 Rem lever gun seemed to make a huge difference on dropping deer quicker IMO.

Who knows, maybe the next deer I shoot with the load might run a country mile. I shot two deer last season. One with a 200 grain RN Seirra out of 300 RUM loaded around 2900 fps. The buck I shot went a 125 yards with a massive blood trail. Broke one front leg and blew out one lung and bottom of the heart. A blind man could have found it. I shot a little doe the next day with my Remington 600 chambered in 243. Used a 90 grain Nosler ballistic tip loaded a little hotter than book loads. The doe dropped on the spot and never flinched just like 200 grain HP did out of 35 Rem. I recovered the bullet between the shoulder and the hide. About the same amount of damage as the 35 Rem as well. We get multiple tags here in WI. I end up with a half a dozen deer on average a year or more so I don’t mind loosing a little meat with an expanding boolit so I have a better chance of it not running over to the neighbors property and loosing it to them.

[Norske]

My Browning BLR 38W really liked a 200gr RCBS cast boolit from Missouri bullets over 39gr IMR 3031.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

That alloy sounds rather hard which would make it frangible. If it is as hard as it sounds, you might want to slow down the MV a bit so won't be picking lead shards out of your teeth when at the dinner table. In my experience, a boolit that size only needs about 1000 FPS terminal velocity (probably even less) to do what you want on deer sized game. You might only need about 1600 fps at the muzzle to get that 1000 fps at 200 yards if your rifle likes that lower velocity.

I thought that having equal parts tin and antimony prevented fragmentation. Like Lyman #2 which is 95/5/5. I make my checked .30 cal bullets from #2 and always figured they would work for a shoulder shot at about 1,750 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

I thought that having equal parts tin and antimony prevented fragmentation. Like Lyman #2 which is 95/5/5. I make my checked .30 cal bullets from #2 and always figured they would work for a shoulder shot at about 1,750 fps.

Correct Cosmic_Charlie. The OP's 94/3/3 alloy is actually pretty soft and ductile. Even #2 alloy at 90/5/5 seldom will seldom, if ever, be "frangible". Both have equal amounts of antimony and tin forming the sub metal SnSb. The OP's chosen alloy is a very balanced ternary alloy and a good one.