S&W Performance Center - Fail

[Hrfunk]

For any of you who might be interested.

Howard


https://youtu.be/vsePq3XSLU4

[tazman]

Sorry to hear about your poor experience with S&W. I also love and use the older revolvers a lot.
A few years ago, I purchased a Model 929. This is their 8 shot 9mm revolver from the performance center. More money that I have ever spent on a revolver before or since.
I had good experiences with mine. I am not certain I would have noticed the damage yours has.

Something to remember. S&W is no longer the same quality conscious company they were years ago. There are lots reports of damaged revolvers getting out of their factory.
Particularly with Performance Center firearms, you would think an extra level of care would be used to make sure nothing like this ever happens.
The extra you pay for this supposed level of quality should ensure a top quality firearm.
I will be following this thread to see how things work out.

[Martin Luber]

No surprise there unfortunately

[Hrfunk]

Thanks. I'll keep you posted.

Howard

[rintinglen]

I certainly understand your complaint and I am sorry to hear of yet another bad Gun leaving the S&W factory.


My last new S&W revolver--and I do mean last--was a S&W Model 69 4.125" that had the roughest barrel I have ever seen. It leaded like nobody's business. I sent a letter to S&W and got no response, so I looked at getting it workable. The cylinder throats were under sized, so I had Doug Guy Fix them, but it still was leading badly. I tried fire lapping, which helped slightly, but eventually, I gave up. I sold the gun to a fellow after telling him it was "Jacketed only" unless he liked scrubbing lead.

These days it has been replaced by a Ruger 3" GP 100 44 Spl.

[4bisley5]

You really roll the dice with buying new these days. Actually it's been like that for a while it seems. I lucked out a few months ago on my newest purchase. I bought a new 629 with 6 inch barrel. The throats were .428 but that was easy enough to get corrected. Mine shoots fantastic.

[megasupermagnum]

If your issues were just cosmetic, and you already got in touch with customer service, things will probably turn out good. You are already doing better than I did with my brand new model 57. People can complain all they want about Ruger, but I've never seen a Ruger in as horrendous condition as some of the S&W's members have been posting in the last 5 years. Word of caution. If you are speaking with a Paul Remore, he will not help. I paid shipping 3 times, each with specific instructions for #1 run a patch through the barrel (so they could feel where the rifling was missing) and #2 send a target back with the gun to proove it was fixed. After 3 trips on my dime, He failed to do anything except send a dirty revolver back with a barrel FILLED end to end with lead, and a note saying the accuracy was fine.

[Outpost75]

Proves the addage that an old gun which works is worth more than a new one which doesn't. I'll stick to my 1965 Colt Trooper, 1964 Colt Official Police and 1966 Detective Special. And I got a couple Rugers from the mid-1980s.

[Walks]

Outpost75 is right.
I'll stick with My 1950's Colt, 1960's S&W's and 1970-80's Ruger's. And a 1980's M624.
They have NO issues.
I sure hope S&W fixes your new M19.

[ubetcha]

I often thought about getting a new wheelgun, but I'm quite happy with my
Ruger Security Six in 357 which I bought new in the 80's. If I did get new, it would be a GP 100 in 357.

[reddog81]

Best of luck getting it all fixed up.

FWIW I believe the Performance Center name is basically a marketing tactic at this point. The PC guns generally have different/better features than the normal lineup. It doesn't really indicate any extra work went into the gun, or even have more experienced people putting them together as indicated by the barrel being gouged on a new revolver...

[FISH4BUGS]

Proves the addage that an old gun which works is worth more than a new one which doesn't. I'll stick to my 1965 Colt Trooper, 1964 Colt Official Police and 1966 Detective Special. And I got a couple Rugers from the mid-1980s.

I haven't bought a new gun for so long I can't even remember. I'll shoot the daylights out of and stick with my 1960 Model 28, 1956 pre 29, 1950 44HE, 1930's 32-20 HE, 1946 Hi Standard Model HDM, 1933 H&R Sportsman, and a bunch of pre 1960 Colts. They are collectibles but I shoot them regularly.
Today's guns are junk when you compare the quality and workmanship of the 60"s and before.

[Tazman1602]

That’s horrible to hear guys. All of my Smiths are older and are finest kind, they even compare to my Rugers ( just funnin ya now…). I *had* been toying with a performance center Smith but I think I’ll hold on to this thread and see how things go…..

Art

[Plate plinker]

Who would rather pay extra for a better gun from S&W? Just curious.

[megasupermagnum]

Who would rather pay extra for a better gun from S&W? Just curious.

Depends on what you mean by "better". I don't care one bit how nice the bluing is, how perfect the lines match up, how pretty the grips are. What I would pay more for is a perfect barrel, line bored cylinder, and smaller B/C gap.

[nockhunter]

My S&W 625 PC shoots great, no leading at all, I shoot it in IDPA matches. I just got a 2 3/4" M69 last year and it shoots well with jacketed and cast. I just haven't had too much time to narrow down a best load. You never know what will turn up in a S&W box these days.

Mike

[stubshaft]

What a crying shame. I guess compared to all of the crap that is being made now days it is to be expected.

[Hrfunk]

Isn't that the truth? The craftsmen and artisans of yesteryear must be turning over in their graves.

Howard

[georgerkahn]

For any of you who might be interested.

Howard


https://youtu.be/vsePq3XSLU4

First: Wonderful video-- Thanks for posting! Second: I bought a brand-new Plain-Jane Model 41 Smith back in 1976. Albeit I sent it to Clark Custom guns for a trigger job and one of their awesome barrels, this was not "needed" -- just my (deluded?) thinking my Bullseye target scores would get higher ;). Advance 45 years, and a not-too LGS got in a Performance Center 41. Although it's been a lonnng while since I shot competitively, I wallowed a bit whether it should become mine -- and -- bought it!
My question, first time I took it to range, was shouldn't they change their moniker to LOWER-Performance Center? While cosmetically I did not have any of the scars showing on your revolver, after trying at least one-half dozen brands of ammo, I still could not get one single magazine to function without a ftf. I took it to a local gunsmith, and he advised, "send it back" as -- something I hadn't noticed -- the barrel was not cut in its centre! OK -- I, too, rang S&W; sent it back; and about a month later got same pistol back with same magazines but -- only thing I noticed -- a new barrel.
At range, same ftf! "Life's too short" so I sent this (still) brand new pistol to Clark, and they did some magic on it to get it working. When I go to range nowadays, with both 41's -- the one I bought in '76 is the one I mostly (99%) shoot!
I do hope your experiences vis the "repair" for your revolver is better than mine with the P C 41!
geo

[Thumbcocker]

Last Smith I bought was a reimported model 10 pencil barrel. No issues.

[happyfast79]

End of last year I bought a 629 classic and a 329pd both new and both had to go back to s&w right away, the 629 had machine marks up the front of the frame, but other than that it was good

The 329 had a massively crooked forcing cone (.011 -.005), anodizing missing is spots, punch marks around all the shroud pins and a few other cosmetic issues.

I was very disappointed in these expensive guns being sent out looking like this, sent them back with a note on what I wanted the barrel cylinder gaps set at and they came back perfect... like how they should have been when they left there the first time. But anyway it all worked out.

Edit. It took 4 weeks for the 629 and 5 weeks for the 329 to get them back.

[ScrapMetal]

While those kind of problems should not leave the factory, I imagine that S&W (with record guns sales the last couple of years) may be having problems with new employees, or errors due the speed of production.

The last coupe of S&Ws that I bought were perfect but that was before all the "panic" buying started.

As long as they make good on everything, it might be a pain, but it doesn't get me too excited.

FWIW

-Ron

[Thumbcocker]

Smith and Wesson just announced sales and profits. They are selling guns like daiquiri in hades.

[megasupermagnum]

Smith and Wesson just announced sales and profits. They are selling guns like daiquiri in hades.

Is that good?

[Thumbcocker]

Is that good?

It is a fact. It is also a sign of the times that manufacturers can turn out turds and the majority of consumers are fine with that.

[Hickok]

Bought a new Smith 586 4 inch barrel not long ago. I didn't really notice the front sight when I picked it up,...everything looked good.

Then I got to shooting it, and was grouping to the right. (Most all S&W's I own, shoot to center or slightly to the left for me, until I adjust the rear sight. Just the way I shoot, or hold the revolver. YMMV) So I was a little surprised. I had to adjust the rear sight to the left...to far to the left to suit me, to get a good zero.

I then looked the revolver over from every angled, and saw the barrel was no "clocked" to the frame perfectly...the front sight was canted to the left a couple of degrees. (I should have seen it when I bought it, but I didn't.)

Put the revolver in a vice, using a S&W revolver insert in my barrel wrench, and clocked the barrel properly "dead-center", front sight vertically straight. Only had to back up the barrel minutely, so it is still nice and tight, everything lines up, and the revolver shoots and zeroes perfectly. The "Crush-fit" that S&W uses to tighten barrels to the frame is super tight!

To me, it is simply inexcusable that S&W can sell a revolver with the barrel/frame fitment not clocked perfectly. From what I researched, this has been a big problem for some time with many S&W revolvers.

My older Smiths do not have this problem.

[ubetcha]

Last handgun I bought was a S&W M&P Shield in 40S&W. I bought it used and it came with a bucket of Remington 180gr FMJ. The little that I have shot it, it seemed to be ok. Only thing about it is, I dislike chasing brass. That's why I prefer wheelguns.

[Thumbcocker]

Look on the bright side. Bubba finally got his dream job; working for a real gun company. He can now but his lifetime of gun knowledge to work for the buying public.

[megasupermagnum]

It is a fact. It is also a sign of the times that manufacturers can turn out turds and the majority of consumers are fine with that.

I'm even more confused than before. "selling guns like daiquiri in hades" is not something I've heard before, and the internet has no info. All I can find shows a daiquiri is some kind of cocktail, and unless I'm mistaken, Hades is a Greek god. I can only assume it is hard to sell cocktails to a god. So is Smith and Wesson doing bad?

[Thumbcocker]

Daquqries are an icy cold cocktail. Hades is a forum friendly way of saying h e double hockey sticks, a place generally associated with fire and high temperatures. It is fair to assume that ice cold drinks would be popular there.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Hrfunk]

Now here's the rest of the story:
Howard


https://youtu.be/oQD8B93d_VQ

[rintinglen]

I wish that your experience was unique, but unfortunately, "build, sell, then fix" seems to be the business model of the day. I bought a Kimber Micro 9 which was a bust out the gate, light firing pin strikes and FTF's to the tune of about 9 malfunctions per hundred shots. My experience was pretty good, IIRC it only took about two weeks, including shipping time and it is now a functional firearm. However, I have had equally poor experiences with Ruger, and S&W products. In fact, my experience with Smith was such that my S&W 69 was the last, and I do mean final, new S&W Revolver I shall ever buy.

Ruger in particular has outstanding service, but you shouldn't need it so often. 4 out of ten Rugers purchased in the last decade by me had serious defects, my 308 American Rifle had never been chambered properly and would not allow a cartridge to be inserted and fired. Three were sent back and one I repaired myself. Fortunately, there are a lot of old, GOOD guns out there for the discriminating buyer.

I hope your new gun proves to be worth the aggravation.

[Mal Paso]

A 629 I ordered came in to the gunshop with no rifling.

[Bmi48219]

A 629 I ordered came in to the gunshop with no rifling.

I can almost understand post #26 the revolver barrel being slightly canted. Shipping a revolver with an unrifled barrel is inexcusable.

[BMW Rider]

Those "lugs" in 3:18 - 3:33 don't look undamaged to me. Are you sending it back again? 298503

[Hrfunk]

It looks better than it did the last time. I’m going to shoot it before I make any other decisions.

Howard

[Outpost75]

I can almost understand post #26 the revolver barrel being slightly canted. Shipping a revolver with an unrifled barrel is inexcusable.

I witnessed an entire ten-board of unrifled Model 10s at the S&W factory. I asked if I could buy one for a snake gun and Roy Jenks, who was our group host was gobsmacked.

[JoeJames]

Huh, that would indeed be quite a snake gun, notwithstanding the NFA though.

[Idaho45guy]

Watched the video last night, then came here and saw this thread about it. Outstanding job, again! Congratulations on getting merchandise! That's a big step for a YouTuber.

Regarding S&W, my own experience with them mirrors yours.

I bought a Performance Center Shield 9mm a few years ago for my carry gun. It was to replace my S&W M&P40c, which I loved, but was chunky and I decided to see what all the fuss was about regarding the micro 9mms.

I bought it from the local shop brand new and took it to the range to see how accurate it was.

It had a wonderful trigger and seemed nice and tight in the shop. When I loaded the magazine and racked the slide, it felt "off". I fired the first magazine at 7 yards and was in love with the sights and low recoil. All shots went into about an inch and a half.

Then I backed up to 25 yards and bench rested it. I don't think I got all 5 shots on the 12" target. Tried again and again with different brands (I didn't reload for 9mm back then). Best group was 12".

I field-stripped the gun and discovered the issue; the barrel had a weird anomaly. Looked like a little bump on it...

298555

And the crown didn't look right...

298556

I called S&W and got a clueless female CS rep who argued that it was a self-defense pistol and 12" at 25 yards was acceptable. She totally ignored the fact that the barrel had a major flaw and said it was just cosmetic and couldn't be seen when the gun was assembled so no big deal.

I asked to speak to her supervisor. Got him on the phone and he immediately agreed to have it looked at and sent the shipping label.

They had it for two months. To do a 30-second barrel swap.

Got it back and it wouldn't do better than 8" at 25 yards. The crown of the new barrel was also nicked...

298558

I gave up and sold the pistol to a gentleman with lower standards than mine. I don't even look at S&W Performance Center products anymore.

[Green Frog]

The last new S&W revolver I bought was a 6” Model 16-4 in 1989. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it and I sincerely regret selling it to buy an antique Winchester single shot. Since then I’ve bought a few S&Ws, but QC had been performed by previous owners since the factory hasn’t felt it necessary. Besides, now I tend to get them as building projects, so “problems” can be dealt with during the build. :brokenima

When S&W named it, they left out a word for brevity. It should have been called the S&W Unpredictable Performance Center. Sad but true! [smilie=b:

[Thumbcocker]

In Mr. Funk's situation i think I would look for a pinned and recessed 19 or a 586 from the last century.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Buying a new wheel gun sight unseen these days is surely a gamble. Particularly so when you are an avid cast shooter. Thimgs like a rough forcing cone and thread choke are deal breakers for us. I have gotten two new Smiths recently, a model 60 pro and a 587 plus deluxe. Fortunately they both are fine pieces. I did have two new Rugers that had issues. I have also bought some used revolvers on GB that turned out well.

Sorry to hear about your troubles HR.

[Dieselhorses]

Very good video. I guess I'm an odd ball when it comes to buying guns. I always carry a small LED light, magnifying glass, calipers and a bore scope with me to any gun swap, show, store or if I'm purchasing from another individual. They get aggravated with me because I inspect the gun for a straight 20-30 minutes. I love S&W but I don't assume quality will match my former revolvers. This should really be an "eye opener" for S&W to find their roots again and stop putting their name in jeopardy.

[Dieselhorses]

A 629 I ordered came in to the gunshop with no rifling.

seriously?

[rockrat]

A Ruger MKI bull barrel 22lr I bought back in 1974 didn't have any rifling. I knew I was a better shot than what that gun would do. When I cleaned it, I found out why I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside. Wish I would have kept it.

[Mal Paso]

seriously?

Yes, no rifling. They must have been embarrassed as the next one was perfect unfortunately caDOJ ran my approval past 30 days and I didn’t get the gun. The gunshop is out of business now but it doesn’t make me feel better. Life in The State.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I was surprised to read that S&W used sleeved barrels. Why would a person buy one? Years ago, a co-worker traded a very nice '94 Winchester for one of those cheap German single action 22s. You know the pistols. They had a frame made of who knows what and a sleeved barrel. The first time he shot the pistol the liner was sticking out of the end of the barrel. I am attaching a picture of some double action revolvers I bought many years ago. The model 29-2 I shot twice: I think. The K-Master 22 I shot once as was the case with the Diamond-Back. The Detective I have never fired. I changed the grips on the K-master because these grips are a much better design and feel great. At my advancing age I wonder why I keep these pistols in such pristine condition or keep them at all for that matter. Do you think they will carve it on my gravestone, boy he left us some really nice pistols? I should add that I have several single action pistols that I do shoot whenever I go to the range or the desert.

[cupajoe]

Sleeved barrels. I just in the last week came to learn that Ruger is using sleeved barrels on some of the Redhawks and some of the GP100's. I guess I just don't get out much.

[megasupermagnum]

Sleeved barrels. I just in the last week came to learn that Ruger is using sleeved barrels on some of the Redhawks and some of the GP100's. I guess I just don't get out much.

What do you mean, sleeved? I've never seen a Ruger, or S&W with a sleeved barrel.

Are you guys talking about shrouded barrels? That's a whole different thing. I wish ALL revolvers in the future go to shrouded barrels instead of the current crush fit threaded ones. Shrouded barrels are superior in every way I can think of. I'm not aware of any GP100 with a sleeved barrel. Maybe you are thinking of the super GP100, which is really a super redhawk built for competition?

[Three44s]

My newest S&W is a 629 Mountain Gun. It’s a dash four and I bought it New in late 1998.

It’s not a Performance Center product but it wins the highest accolades possible by me!

Three44s

[cupajoe]

Ruger calls them"sleeve and shroud barrels". I knew Dan Wesson used that type of barrel system and more lately S&W had also used it but did not know that Ruger had gone to that setup as well on some models.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

A Ruger MKI bull barrel 22lr I bought back in 1974 didn't have any rifling. I knew I was a better shot than what that gun would do. When I cleaned it, I found out why I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from the inside. Wish I would have kept it.

Should have saved it for .22 shot shells.

[Green Frog]

Should have saved it for .22 shot shells.

You might have run afoul of the BATF with it… a smooth bore pistol of any caliber is in danger of being categorized as an “Any Other Weapon” (read “Short Barrel Shotgun”) with all the complications that can bring about!
Back in the ‘30s High Standard made a smooth bore pistol, the Model S. Fortunately it now falls in C&R if you can find one of the dozen or so that were made.

Froggie

[Lance Boyle]

Ruger calls them"sleeve and shroud barrels". I knew Dan Wesson used that type of barrel system and more lately S&W had also used it but did not know that Ruger had gone to that setup as well on some models.



The Dan Wesson revolvers with user swappable barrels via a barrel nut type wrench were quite accurate. I almost bought a M15 a couple times but prefer a smaller .357 frame.

[Jtarm]

The Dan Wesson revolvers with user swappable barrels via a barrel nut type wrench were quite accurate. I almost bought a M15 a couple times but prefer a smaller .357 frame.

DWs weigh a ton but are wicked-accurate.