Gremlins found my scales

[slim1836]

Checked my Frankford Arsenal powder scale with the enclosed 50g calibration weight and got bad results.

297009

So, I got out my Hornady powder scale with the enclosed 100g calibration weight and got bad results.

297010

Well, shoot. I reload in my 12x20 shed and it's only temp. controlled when I'm out there, however, it was 68 when checking the scales. I went in the house and got batteries for both and changed them out. Same outcome. Took out the battery powered lantern, turned it on and turned off the power to the shed at the panel thinking something in the lines were interfering. Same outcome, no change.

Turned the power back on to the shed, got my Lyman Gen6 out and plugged it in. After it's 3 minute warm up countdown I put the enclosed check weight on and ....

297011

....you guessed it, it's off.

What the heck is going on here, any suggestions other than going with my mechanical scales? It's hard to believe all three are off at the same time, but here I am, looking for answers.

It's gremlins I tell ya,

Slim

[jimkim]

Do you have a cell phone in your pocket? Is your phone's bluetooth on? Is it withing four feet of the scales? Is there any lightning nearby? Somewhere online they have a check list. I'd try to find it.

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[nhyrum]

Give the scales more time to warm up. But it's likely not just gremlins. Could be airflow, could be other sources of electric interference. But also, all the metric standards that are kept in an incredibly controlled environment don't measure what they measured when they were made to exacting specifications.

Could be they're just cheap weights that degraded, and the way to check that would be to put them on a certified balance, which is probably easier for me then for others, as my grandpa has an analytical lab he runs. Even his certified check weights don't weigh what they used to, so he just made note of what they actually weigh now and that's his weight he looks for. I believe his balances go to the hundredth of a milligram, so there pretty damn sensitive

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[Silvercreek Farmer]

Is your bench perfectly level? Have you cleaned under the pad? I just blow mine out from time to time by mouth, but something like canned air would probably be better. If you feel good about your weights, just recalibrate. Your’s are off in a different direction, but in school the wife used scales that picked up the weight of finger prints on glassware.

[slim1836]

I took the first two scales in the house for more temperature control overnight. My cell phone was on but 6' away, I'll get more distance on that tomorrow.

I also did not know check weights changed over time and I have no way to check that, still good to know.

The Gen6 isn't cheap to replace, but it's several years old.

All this is not good when trying to work up loads and repeat them. I'm going to dig what mechanical scales I have out and dust em off.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Slim

[Silvercreek Farmer]

It looks like you're pretty consistently at .035g or so off.... 1/3 of 1/10th of a grain. I'd roll on with any one of them as I don't load anything to that level of precision and doubt that many of us (including myself) are even capable of measuring to .035gn. I don't like or use electronic scales, but that's a personal preference. Given your calibration with check weights being that close...I can't see it being a problem, other than the aggravation that it isn't spot on. (Which, for full disclosure, would bother me...but more for OCD reasons than practical loading reasons!! :) )

The calibration weights are in grams. Works out to around .6 grains, pretty significant.

[nhyrum]

If it weighs 499.65 grams, then it weighs 499.65 grams, and there's nothing wrong with the scales, but you need a known good scale to check. Corrosion and oxidation could be what happened.

But as mentioned, make sure everything is level and clean. A phrase I learned from a jet engine mechanic is "clean enough to put in your eye" while he's not serious, just make sure everything is clean, warm and in a room with a stable temperature and no air movement. You'd be surprised how little it takes to throw off a scale as sensitive as these. But strain gauge scales do need to have the electronics and everything properly warm

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[trails4u]

The calibration weights are in grams. Works out to around .6 grains, pretty significant.

You, sir, are correct and I should have caught that before I posted!! Thank you for correcting an obvious thing I should have realized, and for doing so in a respectful manner.... I am now going to delete my earlier post as a safety measure....given that not everyone reads every thread to the end.

[ReloaderFred]

Have you gone through the calibration process with your electronic scales? Whenever mine has set unused for a while, or there is a temperature change, I go through the calibration process and get it zeroed again. Mine is a Pact Professional Scale (no longer made), but it really helps with getting accurate readings consistently.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[slim1836]

Fred, I have and that's when I found out they were off, I brought them in the house overnight and will try again tomorrow hopefully. I had a Pact several years ago, if a flea sneezed, that scale could tell.

Slim

[Froogal]

Anything electronic WILL have glitches. The glitches are built in. Mechanical scales have no electronics, therefore no glitches.

[XDROB]

How does a check weight lose or change weight? If it's kept indoors and no obvious corrosion?

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[slim1836]

I just checked my 2 battery operated scales in the house and they calibrated just fine. I did not bring the Lyman Gen6 scale in to check it but will.

Seems I, in my haste, did not calibrate the two scales properly. After reading the instructions and re-calibrating, was able to get them to pass. Looks like human error (mine) was the culprit.

I hope the Gen6 falls in line too. Thanks guys for the suggestions and help, it made me more aware of my ignorance in properly calibrating my scales.

Slim

[ReloaderFred]

I'm glad you found the problem and are able to fix it. I try to remind myself to calibrate my scale any time I've left it idle for more than a few days. It only takes a couple of minutes to do, and saves immeasurable time if I happen to drop the wrong charge in a lot of rounds and have to pull bullets. I do have a balance beam scale in reserve on the shelf for "just in case", though.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[ReloaderFred]

I just thought of something else. After calibrating my scale some time back, I wrote on the bottom of the scale pan exactly how many grains it weighs with a fine Sharpie. Mine is 121.5 grains. I also did the same with both my check weights. That way, I can use them as a quick check to see if everything is in order, or if I need to calibrate the scale again.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[tdoor4570]

I have had several electronic scales all went in the trash and went back to using my beam scales

[1hole]

I have had several electronic scales all went in the trash and went back to using my beam scales

Smart man.

Seems most folk love their digi-gadgets ... until they crap out. I used to maintain and calibrate electronic lab scales in the space program; I had good job security doing that so they are not for me.

Well, okay, I do have one reloading grade (throw-away) digital scale for weighing cases and bullets. But powder? That's not gonna happen at my house, God made balance scales for measuring gun powder!

[JWFilips]

I do a check and reset on all my electronic scales every month

[1hole]

I also did not know check weights changed over time and I have no way to check that, still good to know.
Slim

Not so much. Standard scale test weights are chunks of metal calibrated back to the National Bureau of Standards. The chunks don't flake away over time and they don't evaporate at all so they can't possibly change weight over time or temperature.

(Dimension standards for testing micrometers and calipers do change physical size - slightly - with temperature changes but that's so tiny it's of no concern to us.)

[1hole]

I do a check and reset on all my electronic scales every month

I suggest you do all of that at the beginning of each loading session.

[slim1836]

Well, I knew bashing of E scales was gonna come out sometime. I generally check my E scales against a balance beam scale on occasion and if all pans out use the E scales. I'm ok with that, each to their own. I caught my mistake and corrected it which was the reason for my OP.

I just find using the balance scales to be rather slow and tedious and I'm mostly a paper plinker. I'm not as knowledgeable on fine tuning a load as a lot of the members here, nor do I aspire to be. I just have fun casting and shooting. I just have to please myself with the results.

I applaud those who get MOA with cast boolits and if I'm in the kill zone at 100 yards I'm a happy camper.

Now I need to re-weigh my cast boolits from my last session, I bet they are off a tad.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, it's appreciated.

Slim

[gwpercle]

You could always go Low- Tech .
My RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale never fails ... but who wants to use something so Low Tech as a beam scale ...
This is 2022 and that will never do ...long live the micro-chip ! Old school be Hanged !!!
Gary

[trails4u]

Slim, I don't want to hijack your thread, but would like to say kudos to everyone who's posted here. I made a pretty terrible, egregious mistake in a post I made, and was politely corrected, with no bashing, flaming, nor being called an idiot. (Which I may have deserved!). I can't imagine the flaming I would have taken on a few other sites, but not here... Thanks to you all for keeping it professional and useful!

[slim1836]

Slim, I don't want to hijack your thread, but would like to say kudos to everyone who's posted here. I made a pretty terrible, egregious mistake in a post I made, and was politely corrected, with no bashing, flaming, nor being called an idiot. (Which I may have deserved!). I can't imagine the flaming I would have taken on a few other sites, but not here... Thanks to you all for keeping it professional and useful!

AMEN, Same goes with me as I was the one wrong with calibrating my scales. It was a rookie mistake and I thought I was above that level after all these years. How embarrassing but brings one back to reality.

The members one here are next to none.

Slim

[BK7saum]

In reality if that is linear dispersion, you are looking at a 0.54 grain error on a 771.6 grain charge so any normal charge would be off less than 0.1 grains. I would consider that close enough for govt work.

However, i run a higher end electronic balance and while not calibrated routinely, i check the pan weight (117.9645 grains or something written on side when new) and also check weight of a known 50grain bullet. If both of those check out, i just go with it. If either are off, i will recalibrate. i am just verifying the scale is correct in the range I am using it.

If the OPs check weight has always been off, but consistent over time, then i wouldnt worry about it as long as consistent..

[1hole]

Well, I knew bashing of E scales was gonna come out sometime.

Slim, don't misunderstand me. I don't "bash" E scales, per se, because they do have some good points but I also recognise their weaknesses.

Think about this; no one makes a digital reloading scale that's worth repairing! When a Chinese scale craps out under warranty and gets returned to the "maker" who simply tosses it out and sends back a new one. Like Chinese bedside radios from Walmart, those scales are so cheaply made it would make no sense for them to maintain a scale repair/calibration shop with all of the needed test equipments and competent technicians to do the work.


I just find using the balance scales to be rather slow and tedious ....
Slim

Well, digitals do display some numbers immediately. But, every one I've tried requires 2-4 seconds to actually settle; every magnetic damped balance beam I've tried will settle just as quickly.

When trickling up critical charges, balances will immediately and smoothly track the powder but I'm yet to see a digital do that.

Placing a digital flat on the bench works well but setting a balance flat on the bench does not; that's much too low. I suggest you get/make a sturdy wooden box you can place on your bench as a miniature "workbench" to support your balance AND trickler closer to eye level so you can more easily see them; THAT will make them much easier/faster to use!

[Sam Sackett]

I’m with Gary. I’m still using an RCBS 502 from back in the 1970’s. It’s never let me down and locks into center within seconds. Pointer follows me up smoothly when I’m trickling. When done with a reloading session, it goes right back into its original box. It just sits there on the shelf waiting until I need it again. Never saw a need to go to something that needed batteries.

Sam Sackett

[slim1836]

1hole,

My use of the word 'bashing' was probably too harsh for the application in which it was used. My intentions were not trying to incite and were meant to be reflected in good taste only. Probably should have put that in purple font.

I've gotten too used to the E scales and only have the Lee introductory beam scale and a R.F. Wells beam scale. I should make more use of them.

Slim

[dale2242]

I started a thread asking about E scales.
At least 50% of the replies were telling me to use my balance beam scales.
These type of answers were of no use to me what so ever.
Some feel the need to add their opinion even though it doesn't add anything of value to the thread.

[Land Owner]

^^^ that's called "Thread Drift" and it happens to nearly every thread ^^^

I keep my e-scale plugged in. It has been on, and off only a few times, over a decade+ of use. It is a robust PACT and reads "fine", to within 0.2 gr. of both an RCBS (Ohas) 5-0-5 and 10-10 beams. I keep a set of GRAM check weights (available in GRAINS) for comparing these three from time to time. I have seen no drift or error producing result.

https://i.postimg.cc/FRd1jmzz/check_weights.jpg

Like Slim, if I'm MOA (or less), and in the kill zone at 200 yards, I am good to go. It is a given that reloading for hunting is far more forgiving than competitive shooting. Consistency is King.

A scale that is routinely and regularly "off" by 0.5 grains (say) that throws charges which put the bullet on target, is a reliable scale in my book. I also am not trying to shave the whiskers on a gnat at 100 yards...ymmv.

[Rapier]

Electronics are great until they are not so great. I spend the time, to save time. I use a triple beam Ohaus. Turn the ceiling fans off. I no not use electronic scales or powder dispensers.
I am a surveyor, chief surveyor, everything in my world is electronic, I do not trust electronics one mill or if you wish .001 grains. Verify, verify, verify. Very hard to break a new person from wanting to just trust.
Glad you caught the errors.

[Land Owner]

^^^ As professionals/perfectionists - CE, PE (ret.) here - we make it tough on ourselves in a hobby pursuit ^^^

I make hunting rounds one-at-a-time, powder measuring each on a BEAM SCALE. I use the E-scale for "gross measurements" such as separating cases by weight, determining how many as-cast boolits are in a pound of alloy, checking "quality" and segregating as-cast boolits by weight (which does vary over time), and "other" quick turnaround weighings of a non-critical nature. The E-scale is SO FAST for some things. Critical work is done the SLOW WAY.

[1hole]

1hole,

My use of the word 'bashing' was probably too harsh for the application in which it was used.

No sweat, it was harmless. No harm = no foul. :)


I've gotten too used to the E scales and only have the Lee introductory beam scale and a R.F. Wells beam scale. I should make more use of them.

Slim

Lee's little Safety Scale is actually as good as any so far as sensitivity and accuracy goes ... and it's very light. In fact, it's so light and touchy that many of us find it a real PITA to use and noobs sure don't need that. (I think it's best use is for checking the accuracy of other scales!)

Wells once made quite good reloading beam scales EXCEPT (as I well as I can remember) they had no magnetic damping. I'd rather use a digital than a beam scale without mag damping because they are slowwww to settle! (And, IMHO, messy old oil damped beam scales just plain suck.)

One of the rarely mentioned problems with sensitive little electronic scales is their sensitivity to power line changes in both the voltage AND sine wave distortion. Thankfully, power quality is rarely a serious problem in private homes so IF your home's electrical input is clean and stable, your touchy little powder scale will usually be pretty stable too. But, that's a big IF because the quality of your incoming power can change considerably by the hour - or minute!

[ReloaderFred]

I started a thread asking about E scales.
At least 50% of the replies were telling me to use my balance beam scales.
These type of answers were of no use to me what so ever.
Some feel the need to add their opinion even though it doesn't add anything of value to the thread.

You have my sympathy, dale2242. I've never understood why total strangers, using an alias, would have the effrontery to tell me what to use in MY shop. Over the past 59 years of reloading, and over 35 different calibers, I've pretty much determined what works for me in MY shop. I would never have the temerity to tell someone else what they should practice in THEIR shop. I may suggest another method, but I would never tell anyone they had to do something my way, or use [U]the[U] piece of equipment that I use.

I guess you could call that a rant, but it's more of an irritation to me associated with the use of the internet. Back when I started this obsession with reloading in 1963, there was no internet (thankfully, in some cases). I learned from books, shooting magazines, experience, curiosity and there was a shop near me that specialized in reloading, and you could rent a spot at one of his reloading benches by the hour, if you wished. You could also take in your empty coffee can and buy powder from him by the pound, half pound, or whatever you could afford. The owner was a fountain of knowledge when it came to reloading, but his best asset was that he would explain the whys and wherefores of what he'd found that worked for him.

These days everyone with a keyboard can be an "expert". Some really are, but some really aren't. The quagmire we find ourselves in with the internet is determining who the experts really are, but keeping in mind that even the experts can make mistakes....

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: This post really is a thread drift, so I apologize to those who may be offended.

[BC17A]

For peace of mind I verify the charge I'm going to use with known weights. I made a set by cutting small sections from brass, then sanding each one a little at a time until they reached the desired weight using a beam scale. Now, at the beginning of each load session, I cal my digital scale then verify the charge I'm going to use, or as close as I can get with the weights I made. Typically they read right on or within 2 hundredths on my E-scale. When I handload individual rounds I'll also verify again periodically.

https://i.postimg.cc/cH9DppNY/cal.jpg (https://postimages.org/) https://i.postimg.cc/CKdJjv8x/cal2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Jaaymar]

For speed & accuracy in mass measurement what if:
We used a 0.1 grain or better balance.
Made or purchased check weights:
(4) 0.1 grain, (2) 0.2 grain, (1) 0.5 grain, (4) 1.0 grain, (2) 20.0 grain, (1) 5.0 grain, (4) 10.0 grain, (1) 50.0 grain, etc.
Two powder pans modified to be identical in mass.
Place the exact grain in check weights we are trying to measure in one pan on one side of the balance.
Place the other pan on the other side…

Then grab our set of lee scoops and have at measuring our charges:kidding:

[slim1836]

One of the possible issues that I had thought of was the recent wiring I did when I ran underground electricity to the shed, previous power was supplied by an extension cord ran on the ground. I know nada about electricity but had help from one who did. I did use 10 gauge wire in case I needed 220 but doubt I'll ever use it out here.

Secondly, my ignorance in checking properly led me to the belief that the weights showing to be off. Sometimes you just have to sit back and ask, "what is going on here". Once I found the errors of my ways everything fell in place, of course that was after posting here and sleeping on it. It all ended well.

That said, I've gotten the beam scales out and am going to play with them again. They were all I had starting out and perhaps I need to get used to them again. They will be a part of my reloading again. Time will tell how much but I'm going to work on it.

Slim

[dverna]

Like another poster suggested, I keep it simple. I put a .224 bullet on the scale, if the scale gives me a reading within .1 gr it is close enough.

I have three beam scales and one electric scale. I hardly use them. The bulk of what I shoot is loaded on progressives and I check powder drops with every new primer tube or two. Nothing I shoot is affected by a .2 variation in powder charge. But we all have different needs.

[uscra112]

I bash electronic scales because....well.....they're so gosh-darned bashable! Extremely temperature sensitive, affected by florescent lights and cellphones, sunspots, tides, you name it.

[59sharps]

I was actually able to get parts from Pact. they wouldn't do the work but would send them.

[NSB]

How does a check weight lose or change weight? If it's kept indoors and no obvious corrosion?

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They don’t. I supervised two metrology labs for the auto industry and we used the same calibrated weights for years and they got daily use. We had to send them out twice a year to another lab to have them checked…..they don’t change. If they get dropped onto concrete or are exposed to some type of chemical, etc that could react with them they were sent out also. They were kept in a secure locker and had traceability. These types of weights are made of material that is very resistant to rust, corrosion, and wear. Electronic scales are sensitive to anything electrical. LED lights can effect them.

[Bmi48219]

Anything electronic WILL have glitches. The glitches are built in. Mechanical scales have no electronics, therefore no glitches.

Unless a small spider is building a web on the back of your beam. I was checking every fifth charge out of my 55. Consistently within less than a 1/10 grain. Then the scale read .3 light, dumped the charge, next charge was light again. Next was close then a couple heavies. I was baffled until I saw a couple of his legs come over the top of the beam. I evicted the spider then zeroed the scale and re-weighed the last five loads I had dropped before things went squirrelly just to be sure.