How much leading is too much?

[dearslayer]

How much lead is too much lead?? I would think any leading is too much for a powder coated boolit or is some leading to be expected?? I’m pretty new to casting lead . Finally got around to shooting these powder coated .40sw 175gr cast lead boolits from my Lee TL401-175-WC mold. I did 10 rounds each of Win231 at 4.1/4.3/4.5/and 4.7grs. Boolits are sized at .401 after powder coat. All seem to shoot fine with no issues. The 4.7gr had the best group at 25yds albeit I’m not the greatest shot, especially coming off night shift and being very sleepy. I did 5 shots at a time and I admit I flinched on a few and they didn’t hit paper. I’m using the data for a 175gr Lyman#401043 from the Lyman 4th edition cast bullet manual. Suggested start load of 4.3 and Max load of 5.8. Am I getting leading due to lack of charge?? Should I try a larger load and will it have any affect on leading or not? I will try to attach photos of the leaded barrel.

[dearslayer]

Photos taken with Macro so it looks like more lead then there actually was. 296940296941296942

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[Winger Ed.]

What gun, and how much 'mileage' is on it?
Some are more prone to it than others, especially when they're new.

[megasupermagnum]

You should not get any leading if your coating is done right. It is also possible that is not lead, but PC fouling. Check out the coating sub-section, there's tons of info there on how to get well cured coating. It's all a learning curve.

[414gates]

If it all comes together right, there is no leading.

One of the things that removes PC from handgun bullets is a roll crimp.

Make sure yours is a light taper crimp, or a light pass trough a Lee factory crimp die.

[dearslayer]

What gun, and how much 'mileage' is on it?
Some are more prone to it than others, especially when they're new.

Its an older Para Ordnance 16/40. I bought it used and I have no idea how much mileage is on it.

[dearslayer]

You should not get any leading if your coating is done right. It is also possible that is not lead, but PC fouling. Check out the coating sub-section, there's tons of info there on how to get well cured coating. It's all a learning curve.

I'm using PC from a company here in Canada. I bake at 400F for 20 mins and it passes the hammer test.

[dearslayer]

If it all comes together right, there is no leading.

One of the things that removes PC from handgun bullets is a roll crimp.

Make sure yours is a light taper crimp, or a light pass trough a Lee factory crimp die.

I'm using a Lee Factory crimp and it's a very light crimp but I guess it's possible it's still too much?

[dearslayer]

You should not get any leading if your coating is done right. It is also possible that is not lead, but PC fouling. Check out the coating sub-section, there's tons of info there on how to get well cured coating. It's all a learning curve.

I've read some in that section but I'll do some more research over there. Thanks.

[slughammer]

Does it progress the more you shoot or just reach a steady state?

If you work your way up to 200-300 rounds and the fouling stays about the same, I would test for accuracy. If there is no change in accuracy, just keep shooting.

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[dearslayer]

Does it progress the more you shoot or just reach a steady state?

If you work your way up to 200-300 rounds and the fouling stays about the same, I would test for accuracy. If there is no change in accuracy, just keep shooting.

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This morning was the first 40 rounds of cast that I've ever shot from it. Up till now being new to casting I've only ever used copper plated bullets. I still have a whole bunch power coated and ready to load but I figured before I did anymore I'd ask for advise here. I cleaned the barrel tonight before I left for work and it only took a few passes with the brush to clean the lead out. Perhaps now that it's clean I should reload a couple hundred rounds at 4.7 and see how much leading there is afterwards??

[megasupermagnum]

I'm using PC from a company here in Canada. I bake at 400F for 20 mins and it passes the hammer test.

I only gave coating a few short tries. I use mostly traditional wax lube now or tumble lube, so I'm not the guy to ask specifics. I can only suggest that the hammer test is not conclusive. The other thing is make sure you are actually at 400 degrees with a thermometer. These cheap toaster ovens are rarely that accurate on temperature. Either too hot or too cold can cause issues. Another issue I run into when heat treating is that the heat is rarely evenly distributed. You could be cooking the middle ones, and not even curing the outside ones.

Start a thread in that coating sub-section, describe in extreme detail your process. Someone will help. You could keep shooting them, nothing bad will happen, but you can do better if you want.

[ryanmattes]

A few passes with a brush, depending on how many a "few" is, doesn't sound like leading. It may be carbon or unburnt powder. Like someone else said, if it doesn't keep building up, but just kind of seems to be dirty when you're done, keep shooting them. If the lead builds up, you either have a curing problem, or a sizing problem.

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[Winger Ed.]

Its an older Para Ordnance 16/40. I bought it used and I have no idea how much mileage is on it.

I'd keep shoot'n.

Some left overs in the barrel is normal. Powder ash, copper jacket stains, scraped off PC, a shot always leaves something behind.
If it isn't building up and being caked on, and the next shot pushes out the left overs from the previous one ahead of itself,
then deposits its own,,,, that's OK.

[dearslayer]

A few passes with a brush, depending on how many a "few" is, doesn't sound like leading. It may be carbon or unburnt powder. Like someone else said, if it doesn't keep building up, but just kind of seems to be dirty when you're done, keep shooting them. If the lead builds up, you either have a curing problem, or a sizing problem.

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Although I'm not experienced with leading, it looks more gray like very light thin smear of lead and not just regular carbon/ powder build up. I'll do a few hundred and keep an eye and see how things perform. I would say maybe 10 passes with the brush with chore boy copper wrapped around it and dipped in Hoppes cleaned it up easily, but like I said earlier it was only 40 rounds put through it.

[dearslayer]

I'd keep shoot'n.

Some left overs in the barrel is normal. Powder ash, copper jacket stains, scraped off PC, a shot always leaves something behind.
If it isn't building up and being caked on, and the next shot pushes out the left overs from the previous one ahead of itself,
then deposits its own,,,, that OK.

That seems like a great way to put it. Thanks.

[Forrest r]

Huge difference between carbon fouling and leading. Typical leading builds up one 1 side of the lands, namely the drive side. The drive side of the lands is the side that has the torque/pressure of the rotation of the twist being applied to it. Leading starts there and if enough rounds are shot the leading will grow/fill the gaps between the lands.

This is a picture of carbon fouls, it's a 9mm bbl with 500+ rounds of 8/9bhn pc'd bullets thru it with a 25,000psi+/1100fps load.
https://i.imgur.com/7qfoUm4.jpg

Same bbl with a bright light shown down it, you can clearly see no build-up on either sides of the lands. The sides of the lands are clearly defined.
https://i.imgur.com/cat4KJD.jpg

Using hoppe's #9 and 1 tight wet patch the carbon fouling was easily removed from the bbl. Then 1 dry patch was used to finish the cleaning of the bbl. No brushes needed, heck can't even remember the last time I used a brush on either 1911 bbl's (9mm or 45acp).

IMHO:
Most issues with lead bullets in the semi-auto's are caused by the reloading dies themselves. They make cowboy action dies designed for lead bullets in revolvers. Semi-auto dies are designed for jacketed bullets. One look at the expanders will confirm this. I'm using a set of lee dies to reload the 9mm's (love their taper crimp dies!!!!). The lee factory expander next to a custom expander I made myself for the 9mm cases. Huge difference in the length of the expander button between the 2.
https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg

Lyman makes m-die expander dies for lead bullets, a m-die next to a factory lee die. As you can see the lee die's expander button is a lot shorter. You can also see a ring 1/2 way up the lee expander button that was left there from the mouths of the brass it expanded (high water mark).
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

A lyman m-die in a case. You can see that it goes deeper into the case. This expands the case further down protecting the bullets base from being deformed/swaged down. The case mouth gets a flare from the step in the top of the m-die. Doing this makes a shelf that the bullets sits on and makes sure it starts straight when seating. It also stops any scraping of the pc coating off the bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

Lastly, it's better to seat the bullet in 1 step and the crimp in another step.

I've shot a lot of pc'd bullets since I started testing back in the winter of 2013 and switched everything over in 2014. I have never gotten any leading from pc'd bullets. Even when pushing 8/9bhn bullets with 30,000psi+ loads in the magnums or 14/15bhn bullets & 50,000psi+ loads in the 308w's.

NEO makes excellent expanders that use the lee universal expander die body. You simply screw the NEO expander in and you're ready to go.

The only way I know of to get leading with pc'd bullets is the have the pc'd coating be scraped off exposing bare lead. It could be happening thru the reloading process, sharp edges at the end of the chamber in the bbl or rough spots in the bbl itself.

[Freeandcold]

What Forrest said… RCBS “cowboy” dies or Lyman “m” expander die or Lee Universal expander die with a properly sized NOE button.

[dearslayer]

Huge difference between carbon fouling and leading. Typical leading builds up one 1 side of the lands, namely the drive side. The drive side of the lands is the side that has the torque/pressure of the rotation of the twist being applied to it. Leading starts there and if enough rounds are shot the leading will grow/fill the gaps between the lands.

This is a picture of carbon fouls, it's a 9mm bbl with 500+ rounds of 8/9bhn pc'd bullets thru it with a 25,000psi+/1100fps load.
https://i.imgur.com/7qfoUm4.jpg

Same bbl with a bright light shown down it, you can clearly see no build-up on either sides of the lands. The sides of the lands are clearly defined.
https://i.imgur.com/cat4KJD.jpg

Using hoppe's #9 and 1 tight wet patch the carbon fouling was easily removed from the bbl. Then 1 dry patch was used to finish the cleaning of the bbl. No brushes needed, heck can't even remember the last time I used a brush on either 1911 bbl's (9mm or 45acp).

IMHO:
Most issues with lead bullets in the semi-auto's are caused by the reloading dies themselves. They make cowboy action dies designed for lead bullets in revolvers. Semi-auto dies are designed for jacketed bullets. One look at the expanders will confirm this. I'm using a set of lee dies to reload the 9mm's (love their taper crimp dies!!!!). The lee factory expander next to a custom expander I made myself for the 9mm cases. Huge difference in the length of the expander button between the 2.
https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg

Lyman makes m-die expander dies for lead bullets, a m-die next to a factory lee die. As you can see the lee die's expander button is a lot shorter. You can also see a ring 1/2 way up the lee expander button that was left there from the mouths of the brass it expanded (high water mark).
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

A lyman m-die in a case. You can see that it goes deeper into the case. This expands the case further down protecting the bullets base from being deformed/swaged down. The case mouth gets a flare from the step in the top of the m-die. Doing this makes a shelf that the bullets sits on and makes sure it starts straight when seating. It also stops any scraping of the pc coating off the bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

Lastly, it's better to seat the bullet in 1 step and the crimp in another step.

I've shot a lot of pc'd bullets since I started testing back in the winter of 2013 and switched everything over in 2014. I have never gotten any leading from pc'd bullets. Even when pushing 8/9bhn bullets with 30,000psi+ loads in the magnums or 14/15bhn bullets & 50,000psi+ loads in the 308w's.

NEO makes excellent expanders that use the lee universal expander die body. You simply screw the NEO expander in and you're ready to go.

The only way I know of to get leading with pc'd bullets is the have the pc'd coating be scraped off exposing bare lead. It could be happening thru the reloading process, sharp edges at the end of the chamber in the bbl or rough spots in the bbl itself.

Very interesting info. So I have the Lee carbide 4 Die sets for my 3 calibers ...9mm....40sw...and .45acp. If I order the Lee universal expander die and the NEO expander ( did you mean NOE??) would it have to replace the current Lee powder through expander die I'm currently using in my Lee Classice 4 turret press? Isn't the powder through die the one with the expander inside that expands the case mouth? Does NOE have a powder through expander plug?

[Cosmic_Charlie]

There is a sticky about getting ready to shoot cast through a 9mm pistol. Much of that should transfer to yours. If your boolits are properly sized make sure you are not taper crimping them too much. Taper crimp just enough so they chamber nicely and then check to make sure they will not push into the case.

[ryanmattes]

Very interesting info. So I have the Lee carbide 4 Die sets for my 3 calibers ...9mm....40sw...and .45acp. If I order the Lee universal expander die and the NEO expander ( did you mean NOE??) would it have to replace the current Lee powder through expander die I'm currently using in my Lee Classice 4 turret press? Isn't the powder through die the one with the expander inside that expands the case mouth? Does NOE have a powder through expander plug?Yes, you would replace the powder-through die with the M-die. That's what I do for loading cast, I just buy an M-die for the caliber and add it to the set. You want to keep the through die for loading jacketed, it works great for those.

However, I don't use the powder-through feature of the Lee die anyway. And I seat and crimp in separate operations, rather than doing a taper crimp while seating. As the taper is applied while seating, it can cause the coating to scrape off the bullet, which can cause leading.

I use Lee factory crimp dies, and if the carbide ring is too tight, I'll open them up a thousandth or so with 600 grit, polish with 1000 (or higher) grit, and then buff them.

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[dearslayer]

Yes, you would replace the powder-through die with the M-die. That's what I do for loading cast, I just buy an M-die for the caliber and add it to the set. You want to keep the through die for loading jacketed, it works great for those.

However, I don't use the powder-through feature of the Lee die anyway. And I seat and crimp in separate operations, rather than doing a taper crimp while seating. As the taper is applied while seating, it can cause the coating to scrape off the bullet, which can cause leading.

I use Lee factory crimp dies, and if the carbide ring is too tight, I'll open them up a thousandth or so with 600 grit, polish with 1000 (or higher) grit, and then buff them.

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So I'd have to eliminate the powder drop altogether from the turret and replace it with the M die? Stupid question but does that mean I'd have to charge the case separately away from the press? Would that not defeat the idea of a progressive press? Maybe I'm not understanding correctly.

[Winger Ed.]

So I'd have to eliminate the powder drop altogether from the turret and replace it with the M die?

If you've got a four station press, and come up short one hole for what ya want to do:
You can use a Lee dipper powder scoop, and drop the charge through their expander at the top of the stroke.
(A five hole progressive would let you have a powder drop and a separate expander.)

But.... life is a series of compromises.:bigsmyl2:

[slughammer]

.......I cleaned the barrel tonight before I left for work and it only took a few passes with the brush to clean the lead out. Perhaps now that it's clean I should reload a couple hundred rounds at 4.7 and see how much leading there is afterwards??

Just load (100) more (progressivly) and go shoot them.

I wouldn't jump to 2-300 until I confirmed 100 was good.

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[Silvercreek Farmer]

I'm using a Lee Factory crimp and it's a very light crimp but I guess it's possible it's still too much?

Is the carbide ring in the bottom of the crimp die contacting the case at all? If so, it is sizing down your boolit which is not good for leading or accuracy.

You can apply a crimp with Lee pistol seating dies (but not the current rifle seating dies) and skip the carbide ring. The dies for autoloaders apply a taper crimp and those for revolvers apply a roll crimp. But, some people don’t like doing this in one step as the boolit is still moving towards its final seating depth when the crimp is applied which can allow the casemouth shave lead or powdercoating messing up your boolit and possibly headspacing. The solution is to seat all your boolits with the die backed to where it applies no crimp, then back out the seater and adjust the die for the proper crimp and run your rounds through again.

All that said, if you are happy with the accuracy and the fouling never progresses past what you have shown, I would just keep rocking on. In either case, just crimp enough to get the round to past the plunk test in your barrel. Also double check to make sure you can’t push the boolit deeper in the case with hard finger pressure. Boolit setback (when a boolit can be pushed deeper in the case when cycled) is a bad thing and could lead to rapid disassembly.

[dearslayer]

Is the carbide ring in the bottom of the crimp die contacting the case at all? If so, it is sizing down your boolit which is not good for leading or accuracy.

You can apply a crimp with Lee pistol seating dies (but not the current rifle seating dies) and skip the carbide ring. The dies for autoloaders apply a taper crimp and those for revolvers apply a roll crimp. But, some people don’t like doing this in one step as the boolit is still moving towards its final seating depth when the crimp is applied which can allow the casemouth shave lead or powdercoating messing up your boolit and possibly headspacing. The solution is to seat all your boolits with the die backed to where it applies no crimp, then back out the seater and adjust the die for the proper crimp and run your rounds through again.

All that said, if you are happy with the accuracy and the fouling never progresses past what you have shown, I would just keep rocking on. In either case, just crimp enough to get the round to past the plunk test in your barrel. Also double check to make sure you can’t push the boolit deeper in the case with hard finger pressure. Boolit setback (when a boolit can be pushed deeper in the case when cycled) is a bad thing and could lead to rapid disassembly.

Thanks so much for the advice. When I get a minute I'll load a bunch more to try and go from there.

[popper]

Just clean the barrel and if you see silver, that is leading. Minor speckles aren't a problem. You should get lots of powder and PC residue.

[Sam Sackett]

When I load cast in 9mm, I switch out the 9mm powder thru bushing to a 38 S&W bushing. It’s a tad bigger diameter and I believe it may be longer. No other change was needed. The 38 S&W bushing is available at Titan Reloading for a couple dollars. Might be worth a try..

Sam Sackett

[whisler]

+1 /\. That's the way I do it

[dearslayer]

I'll remember that bushing for 9mm but what about the .40sw that we are discussing??

[dearslayer]

Well I put 100 rounds through the .40 this morning. Accuracy was actually pretty good and did not degrade at the end of the 100 rounds. Attaching some photos that show the barrel immediately afterwards. I haven't even had time myself for close inspection so just wanted to get an opinion if this would warrant being considered heavy leading or not. When I get a minute hopefully this evening I'll run a patch/brush through to see what it looks like up close and personal. 297288297289297290297291297292297293297294297295

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[dearslayer]

Just took the barrel out for closer inspection from the chamber side of things as well as the muzzle. Hope this helps with diagnosis of leading. Haven't cleaned it yet because I wanted some opinions. 297297297298297299297300297301297302

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[megasupermagnum]

Is there any way if you can tell if it is lead or coating? The pictures don't help a ton, but that barrel sure looks dirty. There should be zero leading if your coating is good. It might be coating fouling, but that looks excessive. Powder has nothing to do with it, neither does alloy. Either your bullets are undersized, or your coating is poor.

[slughammer]

Looks like powder and PC fouling in the chamber and the start of the barrel.

Leading would be in the grooves between the lands. I don't see any in the pictures.

I'd just use some solvent and a brush and see how easy it cleans up.

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[Dusty Bannister]

I do not see a significant lead star on the muzzle. I see carbon deposits. Dry brush the barrel over a piece of white paper and see what comes out as dust or particles.

Accuracy did not seem to degrade in 100 rounds. By PM I sent two images of what to look for in front of the chamber. What do you see?

If you see no flecks of lead on the paper, try an acetone patch to see if that removes PC residue. If you find nothing but carbon, then try a wet patch of Hoppe's and wait an hour and see if you have green residue on the patch. In other photos, the barrel seems a bit rough, but with no history on the gun, who knows for sure what kind of care it had with the previous owner.

Does a wear pattern on the slide, sides of the barrel where it would rub on the slide when going into battery, around the barrel in the area of the barrel bushing. If little wear, perhaps the previous owner thought he had issues and sent the pistol on down the road to let someone else deal with it.

[dearslayer]

Using a dry brush I see only very little fine lead dust?? I assume that's what it is. Very little though.

[dearslayer]

This is magnified. 297303297304

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[dearslayer]

I don't really see any abnormal wear on the barrel that you suggest but then again I'm not sure what I'd be looking for exactly. 297306297307297308297309

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[dearslayer]

Looks like powder and PC fouling in the chamber and the start of the barrel.

Leading would be in the grooves between the lands. I don't see any in the pictures.

I'd just use some solvent and a brush and see how easy it cleans up.

Sent from my SM-G970U using TapatalkI'll clean it up tomorrow to see how easily it comes up. Have to run out the door for work unfortunately.

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[dearslayer]

Well I came home this morning and put some hoppes in the barrel and let it soak. After a couple of hours I put a little more in and ran the copper brush through about 20 times. Then ran a dry patch through. A little more hoppes and another 10 to 15 swipes with the brush and everything came up pretty clean. I think I'm going to call it good enough.
I don't have any acetone to test the flakes that came out on the white paper towel. I'll pick some up on my way to work tonight so that I can check it in the morning just for giggles.
Also when I ran the first patch through there was no green fouling on the patch.297345297346297347297348

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[megasupermagnum]

If that powder is all that came out, I'm going to say it is nothing but carbon and coating fouling. One way I like to do it is to push a good tight dry patch through before anything else. Not so tight it gets stuck, but very snug. If you have lead in the barrel, it will show up on a tight dry patch, and it will sparkle in the light. Normally it will be more chunks than powder though.