shotgun primers in rifle cases

[indian joe]

Dunno where this should go so trying here
I have bucket loads of shotgun primers left me by my Dad (from trap shooting days) - rifle primers are escalating in price along with everything else and I am head scratching how to utilise these and save a buck without doing me bodily harm

I could tool up to bore out the primer pockets on a batch of cases to take the shotgun primers (time consuming but not so difficult) and this seems like it works ok with brass shotgun cases reformed for things like 450/577 and even the 45/75 - blackpowder only loads of course.

Anybody got a lead on this? - done it? - any ideas why its not a smart plan ? 15,000 primers just sitting there, cost me nothing.
cheers all.
Joe

[M-Tecs]

Trade them for what you need.

[Winger Ed.]

Either get into some serious shot gun shooting, or sell/trade 'em and get what you want.

[indian joe]

Either get into some serious shot gun shooting, or sell/trade 'em and get what you want.

nobody wants em, tried that already -- shotgun reloading dont compute at the moment - trap loads are almost same price as components.
Also inherited enough 12 gauge ammo to keep me going on farm pests for years.

Not counting the work involved - are there mechanical reasons why this will not work ? is dangerous at blackpowder pressure levels?
Would be using 45/70 or 45/75 cases so should be room and strength in the solid head for the conversion yes?

Not interested in the economic side of this rather looking at any possible safety issues.
Thanks fellas.

[Half Dog]

Post your location, there are people near me who would use shotgun primers. Could possibly trade too.

[toot]

any one know how to adapt them to rifle brass?? I would like to give it a go!

[dverna]

I have read of pistol cases being altered to use 209's. Never seen anyone try rifle cases but it should be possible.

If I had something like a .45/70 they should be safe for Trapdoor level (20k psi) level loads. 209's run at 14k on some shotgun loads but I expect that is more due to barrel strength than primer safety.

Best to trade them off if you can as others have suggested.

[HWooldridge]

I suspect you would have problems - shotgun primers are designed for very low pressures as compared to brass cartridges, even when loaded with black powder. It "might work" but as everyone else has stated, I would sell/trade them to someone who wants them. Conventional rifle and pistol primers are available if you look long and hard enough.

[yetavon]

I would be interested in trading some If some old CCI #157 will work for you.

[Jedman]

Myself and a friend did a lot of “ playing around “ with 410 hulls w / 209 primers loaded to much higher pressures in several rifles. If headspace is good a 209 primer is good for at least 25 K pressures. Being the way they are constructed the center part is a separate stamping then the outer “ body “ of the primer and when they reach their limit of pressure you will see a black circle of gas leakage around the two parts. When they do let go and come apart and the center falls out when the cartridge is extracted. These were all loaded with smokeless powders but I believe if used with black powder the 209 primers would work fine.
One thing to remember is due to the length of a 209 primer if you were to drill and ream the primer pockets out of centerfire brass the front end of the 209 would be totally unsupported as most centerfire brass only has about a .200 thick solid base. You would be eliminating the smaller flash hole built into the bras case and the full pressure might expand the front face of the primer that’s unsupported and it would then be a bit harder to remove them from a fired case when you would want to reload it again.
If you tried this I would do a couple of your 45-75 cases and start your first loads quite light and see how the primers react. When I said reaming the primer pocket it is a tapered hole so you may need to make your own tool to get a good fit .
Being you have so many of the primers I would do as others suggested and find a buyer and sell them and get what you need. There has to be people that shoot trap/ skeet that need 209 primers.

Jedman

[15meter]

There are still a number of shotgun reloaders in SW Michigan/NW Ohio. Three buddies just bought a case each of 209's for ~$300 a case. A bunch more skeet shooters I know would snatch up your primers in a heart beat.

Check at the local skeet clubs. Either guys loading sub-gauge or specialty reduced 12 gauge for skeet.

I've got a!most 60 boxes of 12's on the bench that I reloaded over the last couple of days.

Almost time to move on to the 20's, 28's and 410's.

I'm in the market for a nice 16 gauge, when that follows me home, the 16 gauge MEC 650 will come off the shelf.

Have you priced 16 gauge lately? Last I saw was $20+ each for the TWO boxes on the shelf. Same kind of price for 28 and .410.

I've got large rifle that would swap nicely for 209's, safer for you and your rifle. I suspect there are skeet guys local to you that would think the same way.

[Deadeye Bly]

I once modified some Berdan primed 577 Snider cases to use 209 shotgun primers. We shot a few to make sure it would work and I did the rest. The customer said it worked for him and there was not much of another option at that time.

[Gunlaker]

I think some muzzle loaders are set up to use 209 primers. I'd investigate the bullet weight and charges those guys are using. That should give an idea of how safe this might be.

Chris.

[Baltimoreed]

I can’t imagine that they couldn’t get horse traded for cf primers. You don’t say where you’re at. After the spring thaw look for a trap or skeet club to contact. Put some 3x5 cards on local gun range bulletin boards. If you have a local gun or pawn shop inquire there. Last year I traded 3 bricks of CCI spp for lpp. Two at my bank [mgr is a reloader] and one at a gunshow. Put a couple bricks in a daypack with a sign pinned on it and walk around a big gunshow. 209s are as scarce as cf primers.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

With an adapter they can be used as musket caps.

DG

[kootne]

There is a short "Dope Bag" article by Elmer Keith in an old American Rifleman magazine. He refers to Bob Ward of Missoula, Mt. doing this with cases for a 3-1/4 .450 Express that were Berdan primed and shooting them in a Churchill double rifle. His load was a 405 gr. bullet (I'm sure it was not a jacketed bullet, article is from the late '40's), and 50 gr. of 4198 powder.

[indian joe]

Post your location, there are people near me who would use shotgun primers. Could possibly trade too.

Go west young man [smilie=s:- when you cross the coast hang a 45 degree left, go 10,000miles over the water till ya see land, do a couple circles around the joint with the coathanger lookin bridge and ya land right on the waters edge - hire a car and drive west again (7 hours will do it) pull up when the country starts to look a bit like north west Texas - thats close enough to find us. :bigsmyl2:

[indian joe]

There are still a number of shotgun reloaders in SW Michigan/NW Ohio. Three buddies just bought a case each of 209's for ~$300 a case. A bunch more skeet shooters I know would snatch up your primers in a heart beat.

Check at the local skeet clubs. Either guys loading sub-gauge or specialty reduced 12 gauge for skeet.

I've got a!most 60 boxes of 12's on the bench that I reloaded over the last couple of days.

Almost time to move on to the 20's, 28's and 410's.

I'm in the market for a nice 16 gauge, when that follows me home, the 16 gauge MEC 650 will come off the shelf.

Have you priced 16 gauge lately? Last I saw was $20+ for the TWO boxes on the shelf. Same kind of price for 28 and .410.

I've got large rifle that would swap nicely for 209's, safer for you and your rifle. I suspect there are skeet guys local to you that would think the same way.

I'm downunder - it looks like money dynamics in the ammo game are different here - we get imports from eastern Europe and asia. I have a couple good contacts in the trap game and we cant find anybody interested. One or two guys reloading within a hundred miles of me and they would take them for free but dont want to pay. Still plenty ammo on the shelves here. Prices going up of course and that might get blokes back into reloading but we have a local manufacturer doing trap loads, I imagine will keep the lid on it.

[MUSTANG]

Most Shotgun Loads top out at about 12,000 to 13,000 PSI. I would think that one would want to keep Shot Gun Primer Primed rifles cases at less then 33,000 PSI Loads or less.

[indian joe]

With an adapter they can be used as musket caps.

DG

yep! working on an adapter for that but the cartridge deal would use a lot more if I can get it done

[indian joe]

Most Shotgun Loads top out at about 12,000 to 13,000 PSI. I would think that one would want to keep Shot Gun Primer Primed rifles cases at less then 33,000 PSI Loads or less.

easy ! blackpowder only for this project

[indian joe]

There are still a number of shotgun reloaders in SW Michigan/NW Ohio. Three buddies just bought a case each of 209's for ~$300 a case. A bunch more skeet shooters I know would snatch up your primers in a heart beat.

Check at the local skeet clubs. Either guys loading sub-gauge or specialty reduced 12 gauge for skeet.

I've got a!most 60 boxes of 12's on the bench that I reloaded over the last couple of days.

Almost time to move on to the 20's, 28's and 410's.

I'm in the market for a nice 16 gauge, when that follows me home, the 16 gauge MEC 650 will come off the shelf.

Have you priced 16 gauge lately? Last I saw was $20+ for the TWO boxes on the shelf. Same kind of price for 28 and .410.

I've got large rifle that would swap nicely for 209's, safer for you and your rifle. I suspect there are skeet guys local to you that would think the same way.

I did a deal for 16 gauge a while back - LGS had some - got about 2/3 of a case for 10% less per box than their cheapest 12gauge (its eastern Euro stuff but shoots ok) got a nice little Hollis sxs that I inherited. Dont shoot shotgun much, that lot will keep me going for ages.

[Winger Ed.]

209 primers loaded to much higher pressures in several rifles. If headspace is good a 209 primer is good for at least 25 K pressures.


They get on with it.
I'm not sure how they compare to large rifle or pistol primers though.

In the Service, as part of their survival gear, air crew are given 'pen flares'.
The launcher looks like a big ink pen, and they fire a red flare about the size of your thumb.
It goes up about 2-300 feet or so.

They are powered with nothing but a 209 primer.

[Baltimoreed]

Down under huh…In that case forget what I said, fire up the lathe and start building 209 primed cases. I’ll tell you what a Canadian self taught gunsmith named Dale Friesen did that i met in the summer of ‘73 on a 13,000 mile cross US and Canada trip. He had a nice Sharps carbine in maybe .50-70. In order to shoot it he turned the case heads out of bar stock brass and soldered shim brass on them to make a case. Loaded them with black powder. He said he could get 3-4 reloads before he had to rebuild them. We went prairie dog hunting one day, gave me a 50 caliber muzzle loader. He killed a few, I came close. Had a blast. One of the best days I’ve ever spent shooting.

[hiram]

I was told that shotgun primers are regular primers that are pressed into the sleeve that fits the shotgun shell. Can you make a device to hold the primer and use a flat punch to push the primer out of the sleeve?

[nicholst55]

Many, many years ago in Handloader magazine, they ran an article where the author modified some .45-70 brass to use shotgun primers. I don't recall many details, but as I recall they were trying to get more complete ignition of whatever powder(s) they were using. After modifying a small lot of brass and testing them with various loads, they determined that the results didn't justify the effort involved. I don't recall if they were using black powder or smokeless. I can't recall about when this was, so I don't know if a back issue could be found or not.

[SOFMatchstaff]

I am in the process of making some Berdan 303 Brit cases accept the 209 primer. With the price of brass, I thought it might give me some casings to use with the lower pressure loads in the 1914 Enfield. They fit nice and tight and the range session tomorrow will tell the tale. Cast lead and some Trail Boss to start.

Its an easy trip thru the lathe to get the primer pocket cut and I pushed the 209 in with the tailstock. Once I test the loads and see what the case/primer looks like I'll refine the process, or drop it...

[rbuck351]

I have used 209s in 7.62x54 for cast loads and also made 410 cases from Berdan 303s modified to accept 209s. I haven't tried full smokeless loads in a converted case but I'm fairly sure they would work fine with black powder loads. When the weather gets a bit better I will be trying some jacketed loads in the 7.62x54. The 209 going through the web of the case shouldn't be flattened out by pressure as the pressure inside the primer should be the same as on the front of the primer. Also the 209s have a fairly thick cup.

209s have a berdan style primer cup with an anvil that fits in the steel outer part of the 209 before the berdan style primer cup is inserted.
I can't see how you could use them in a case with a boxer primer pocket.

[15meter]

I'm downunder - it looks like money dynamics in the ammo game are different here - we get imports from eastern Europe and asia. I have a couple good contacts in the trap game and we cant find anybody interested. One or two guys reloading within a hundred miles of me and they would take them for free but dont want to pay. Still plenty ammo on the shelves here. Prices going up of course and that might get blokes back into reloading but we have a local manufacturer doing trap loads, I imagine will keep the lid on it.

Was at one of the clubs I belong this morning, you could have sold them there in a heartbeat. Between Covid, Remington's bankruptcy, and the riots in 2020 that brought us multiple million new shooters the US shelves were stripped bare.

Remington by itself was, by several accounts that I read, selling almost 40% of the ammunition in this country pre-bankruptcy. Take 40% off the shelf of ANY item and things are going to get squirrelly. The stupidity in this country exploded during the worst of it.

Watched one guy snatching two boxes(the daily limit) of ammo off the shelf this time last year for a caliber he didn't even own while he was bellowing he was getting it because Biden was going to outlaw all ammunition sales and that was the last that we were ever going to see.

Prices went nuts, a $10 box of 22 ammo was $180 at the gun show. One guy came into the gun club with 50 year old 22 ammo wanting $100 for the, in 1970's price, $6 worth of ammo. And he bragged he wasn't ripping people off like those criminals at the gun show. Of course, his nickname is Mr. Haney,(and has been for years) after a 1960's vintage television con man.

We are starting to recover, stuff is showing back up on the shelves, 50-100% higher than before the silliness, but it is coming back and the prices are already starting to come down.

[Outpost75]

My friend in Italy modifies Berdan-primed cases for various 11mm black powder rifle rounds to use common shotshell primers loading cast bullets and either black powder or light smokeless loads. Works fine also for 10.4mm Bodeo revolver.

[indian joe]

Thanks to all who responded here - some good info has come forth - enough to make me feel comfortable about this project.

[ascast]

I would like to see someone who has done this give a step by step " how to" as I have buckets of Berdan primed brass and recently made a huge score on some shotgun primers. I'm not going to go nutz on this, just want to know in case of all out zombie issues.

tx in advance.

[dverna]

I have been holding on to Berdan .308 cases and this should make an interesting project. I have a lathe and that should make it feasible. I have 10's of thousands of 209's from when I shot a lot of trap. Will be a good way to use them up and save my LRP's

[missionary5155]

Greetings
To answer your question about BP loads. I have shot out 12 gauge Fox B 30 inch barrels with 135 grains 3f Goex in Winchester plastic and paper hulls pushing a .685 WW round ball in a plastic shotcup. Velocity was 1550 FPS.
No visible evidence that the Winchester shotgun primers suffered any "over pressure" issue. Removal of fired priers seemed normal and replacement also.
Same hulls were fired over 5x each. The plastic hulls were discarded after 7x due to BP deterioration.

[indian joe]

Greetings
To answer your question about BP loads. I have shot out 12 gauge Fox B 30 inch barrels with 135 grains 3f Goex in Winchester plastic and paper hulls pushing a .685 WW round ball in a plastic shotcup. Velocity was 1550 FPS.
No visible evidence that the Winchester shotgun primers suffered any "over pressure" issue. Removal of fired priers seemed normal and replacement also.
Same hulls were fired over 5x each. The plastic hulls were discarded after 7x due to BP deterioration.

I do like the way you do stuff! :grin:

[missionary5155]

This was a 12 gauge project of 30 years ago. Wanted a "double big stick". So our 12 gauge Fox B was elected. Started with the idea to get to 1550
FPS as this was going to be all I would need for any 48 state critter that lived. Range was set at 50 yards. The .685 RB seemed to shoot respectively out of the standard Winchester red wad without having to do any special work
Latter the Goex 3F idea popped up. 3F was the choice as I knew from previous 2F BP loads in that Fox B there was not enough room in the hull.
But 3F Goex burned very clean and chewed up plastic cases less.
But never had any primer hole issues.

[indian joe]

This was a 12 gauge project of 30 years ago. Wanted a "double big stick". So our 12 gauge Fox B was elected. Started with the idea to get to 1550
FPS as this was going to be all I would need for any 48 state critter that lived. Range was set at 50 yards. The .685 RB seemed to shoot respectively out of the standard Winchester red wad without having to do any special work
Latter the Goex 3F idea popped up. 3F was the choice as I knew from previous 2F BP loads in that Fox B there was not enough room in the hull.
But 3F Goex burned very clean and chewed up plastic cases less.
But never had any primer hole issues.

way back in the day there was a one legged gunsmith in our town - guys would go around after work and hang out telling stories well into the night - under his workbench was kinda crowded we found a model 92 action there one time and a wore out barrel from a 73 (I still have that old girl a 5 digit serial no - rebarreled and set up nice) anyway one trip we found a clapped out belgian sxs 12 g - the owner had stumbled ion the swamp pulled the trigger on a mud clogged barrel - how much Jim? --five quid - (ten bucks proly enough for what it was at the time too) anyway with the choke gone we figured might as well lop it to minimum legal (16" plus a quarter inch for cops with short tape measure) - I cut about an inch and a half off the butt to get some proportion in it and shortened the forend - didnt look too bad but was a bit rattly.
Mate went to a farm auction and came home with an ancient 16 gauge ball mold, we had read stuff about muzzle loaders and watched daniel boon on the tv, made some ball that I stuffed down a 12 gauge case inside the plastic wad - to take up the windage we used a 303 military cleaning patch and because we watched Daniel Boon we soaked the patch in axle grease - the load went together nice - fired the first one off a log with a string on the trigger. things progressed ok and we found a martini backsight that got screwed to the rib and fitted a new front sight to the lopped barrel
I was amazed at the outcome - seriously that thing with us idiots behind it would shoot each barrel into a group right around four inches at 50 yards and with a bit of fooling around with the load we got it to overlap the two barrels - one a tad higher than the other but a two barrel group six inches around. We killed a few pigs with it and none of em argued about it. We used the high velocity smokeless load for ounce and a quarter field loads - so that ball was proly scooting along pretty nice. Had a lot of fun with that old clunker but ditched it when registrations came in.

[missionary5155]

Young minds and free time have produced all sorts of firearm marvels. That is a fine example of putting an otherwise castoff old relic back into use.
It is that basic attitude of "giving it a try" that gets instilled while some are young that blossoms into a creative mind that moves the heart to keep on "giving it try".
I do enjoy being about those who can see there is a way even if it is not easy.

[toot]

they are called inline's!

[DaveM]

Obligatory disclaimer: We don’t guarantee that these will be safe in your rifle or with your components. Do this at your own risk.

My friend has recently delved into shooting his M-1891/59 Mosin-Nagant and No.4 Mk.I Lee-Enfield with mousefart loads. These are even less powerful than Ed Harris’s “The Load” of 13 grains of Red Dot under a 150 - 180 grain bullet. He is loading a 115 or 125 grain cast bullet on top of 5.0 grains of Bullseye. (His first try in 7.62R used 6 grains of Bullseye but accuracy was horrible. Backing off to 5 grains shrank the groups.)

He has a good stock of No.209 shotshell primers but not a lot of large rifle primers. He also has a lathe in his basement workshop, as you can see in the picture. It’s an older Jet unit with a 7” swing (not sure how long it is). Yesterday he took some Berdan primed .303 cases that he’d stashed away and drilled out the primer pockets so they will accept No.209 primers.

He used three drill bits to modify each case:

"Center drill to keep main drill from following the firing pin dent, letter C for the main body, 21/64 to countersink the flange on the battery cup. Be careful! My Fiocchi primers are .002" larger than my Cheddite, and I understand the Cheddites are larger than most Yankee brands."

[salpal48]

As stated above when there is No other Option You can Use them . This is mainly with Obsolete Cases. 43 spanish, 11mm Mauser as such or other Berdan style cases. Now with the influx Of New and obsolete cases , it may or may not pay amore. I am still shooting 43 Spanish with the cases I did this to Many. years ago. Now I have been using Track Of the Wolf Cases

[toot]

I would be afraid of the higher pressures blowing the shotgun primers and releasing hot gases into the face.

[omgb]

Shot guns operate at a max of 11,000 psi. Your rifles are working at 18,000 to 22,000 psi. Using a shotgun primer is courting a nasty blowout.

[dverna]

Shot guns operate at a max of 11,000 psi. Your rifles are working at 18,000 to 22,000 psi. Using a shotgun primer is courting a nasty blowout.

12 ga 3 1/2” shells are rated at 14,000 psi. Proof loads are IIRC 20,000 psi.

He may be ok at 18-22,000 psi.

[omgb]

Unnecessarily dicey in my book. The guy seems like a newby and thus may not be able to recognize a danger threshold. Besides, after you alter the case head to take the 209 primer, there is no way except for destructive testing to prove the modified cases safe. Much better to for get that whole scenario rather than risk injury and a stain on our sport.


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[indian joe]

Unnecessarily dicey in my book. The guy seems like a newby and thus may not be able to recognize a danger threshold. Besides, after you alter the case head to take the 209 primer, there is no way except for destructive testing to prove the modified cases safe. Much better to for get that whole scenario rather than risk injury and a stain on our sport.


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depends on your definition of a newby - 73 yrs old, still got all me fingers and toes, and been shooting blackpowder in old guns since I was 15, competent amateur gunsmith on ML and Winchester lever gunz. Yeah I spose still a newby - I put the question out to save some legwork as I thought some of the fellers here whose opinions I take notice of might chime in. They have, which is much appreciated.

[M-Tecs]

Some actual testing here. The tests were for gun strength but does seem the primers were surviving the testing.

The Winchester "Violent Proof" (VP) load was reported to be 7 1/2 (long) tons or about 24,000 psi by using Burrard's conversion. Proof loads do not rupture primers.


https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/important-information-about-shotshell-pressures.html

Now back to the worry that excessive pressures are going to cause shotgun barrels to blow up. While this can happen, it is rare. I once embarked under contract to Remington on a destructive testing regimen to determine how much pressure had to be developed in a Remington Model 870 12-gauge barrels chambered for 3-inch shells before they would explode.

SAAMI tells us that whether using 2¾-inch or 3-inch 12-gauge loads, the maximum allowable pressure level of such shells is 11,500 psi. In this gauge and shell lengths, by the way, SAAMI provides for a mean average of 19,800 psi proof loads for proofing such barrels. So, I started by firing loads which developed 20,000 psi in the test Remington 870 barrels. Nothing happened. I increased the pressure level to 25,000 psi; nothing happened. I continued increasing the pressure by 5,000 psi. Nothing happened even when the pressure level of the destructive testing load reached 50,000 psi! Finally, when I got to 55,000 psi I could get Remington 870 barrels chambered for 3-inch 12-gauge shells to blow up. And they would blow up spectacularly, banana-peeling into multiple segments forward of the chamber. Up until 55,000 psi the barrels wouldn’t even bulge. So we can conclude, at least, that’s how smart Remington is in building super-strong shotgun barrels to withstand excessive pressure levels.

[omgb]

Please accept my apologies, I had some crazy idea you were a kid. My error. I still think it's dicey, but you are a grown up and certainly as qualified as I am. So, again, I apologize. No slight intended.

[rbuck351]

I don't think the primer is the reason shotgun ammo is kept to the low pressure levels they use. The hull of a shot shell is not as strong as the brass cases of a rifle round. They use to be paper and the plastic hulls are probably stronger than paper but still not at the level of brass. The shogun primer appears to be stronger than a rifle primer. The outer case of a shotgun primer is steel which is stronger than brass.

[Glwenzl]

I have milled out a 223 and 221 FB cases to fit a 209 shot shell primer to a snug fit but could easily knock out the primer with a small brass rod. This set up was so I could shoot 17 and 22 caliber pellets from my centerfire (no powder, just the 209 blast). It was a fun little project that made for a nice quiet back yard critter get’r. But reloading it was more work than I cared for.

[indian joe]

Please accept my apologies, I had some crazy idea you were a kid. My error. I still think it's dicey, but you are a grown up and certainly as qualified as I am. So, again, I apologize. No slight intended.

No problem - I would like to still be a kid (well not really - 40 would be good though :D) - I am pretty darn careful with any experimental stuff - have never blown anything up by accident.

[rbuck351]

I have tested cast boolit loads using brass with 209s fitted without problems. Today I decided to test jacketed bullets with higher pressure loads. I used a 7mm Mauser with a case converted to 209 primers. The two loads I tried were a 160gr bullet with 43gs and 48grs of H4831 and Winchester 209 primers. Neither of the loads showed any signs of the primer having any problems. Pressure on the 48gr load should be around 45,000 CUP. I don't think you would reach anywhere near that kind of pressure using black powder.

[indian joe]

I have tested cast boolit loads using brass with 209s fitted without problems. Today I decided to test jacketed bullets with higher pressure loads. I used a 7mm Mauser with a case converted to 209 primers. The two loads I tried were a 160gr bullet with 43gs and 48grs of H4831 and Winchester 209 primers. Neither of the loads showed any signs of the primer having any problems. Pressure on the 48gr load should be around 45,000 CUP. I don't think you would reach anywhere near that kind of pressure using black powder.

thanks for that

[Squid Boy]

I am a little late to this party but just joined and this is my first post. I came into a lot of old Kynock 577-450 brass with Berdan primers and they are almost impossible to find so i modified the cases to take a 209 primer. Here is a shot of a sectioned case.
297600

I modified a countersink I found at Lowes to do the job in one pass. The drill cuts a .237" hole that makes for a press fit on a 209 and the countersink is ground to .330" to clear the rim of the primer. I just go straight through the spent primer and use a dial indicator to set the depth for the primer. Here is what the tool looks like:
297601
It works surprisingly well and I did at least a hundred like this. The 209 isn't well suited to higher pressures and will leak if you get too high. I use these mainly for smokeless to black type of loads for target shooting and haven't had any troubles. They push out just fine. Here is a shot of the lathe set-up.
297602
I can't say that it will work in your situation but it got that old brass working again. They definitely will light off the powder as the SD's on these are all very low and accuracy is at least as good as with standard primers. Good luck, Squid Boy

[dverna]

I am a little late to this party but just joined and this is my first post. I came into a lot of old Kynock 577-450 brass with Berdan primers and they are almost impossible to find so i modified the cases to take a 209 primer. Here is a shot of a sectioned case.
297600

I modified a countersink I found at Lowes to do the job in one pass. The drill cuts a .237" hole that makes for a press fit on a 209 and the countersink is ground to .330" to clear the rim of the primer. I just go straight through the spent primer and use a dial indicator to set the depth for the primer. Here is what the tool looks like:
297601
It works surprisingly well and I did at least a hundred like this. The 209 isn't well suited to higher pressures and will leak if you get too high. I use these mainly for smokeless to black type of loads for target shooting and haven't had any troubles. They push out just fine. Here is a shot of the lathe set-up.
297602
I can't say that it will work in your situation but it got that old brass working again. They definitely will light off the powder as the SD's on these are all very low and accuracy is at least as good as with standard primers. Good luck, Squid Boy

Excellent first post and welcome!

[Squid Boy]

Don, thanks for the kind words. I think I am going to like it here. Squid Boy

[omgb]

Yup, you piqued my interest. Looks like I underestimated the hull strength and the ability of the cup to hold back the gasses. I stand both corrected and educated[emoji108][emoji16]


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[omgb]

Squid Boy, are you a navy vet?


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[TNsailorman]

welcome to the forum SquidBoy. I'm impressed with your project. I am curious about how long it takes to complete one case. james

[ascast]

Squid Boy nice pics and welcome I am curious-in the pic of the section round, it appaers to be a Bertram case was that just easier to section?

[indian joe]

I am a little late to this party but just joined and this is my first post. I came into a lot of old Kynock 577-450 brass with Berdan primers and they are almost impossible to find so i modified the cases to take a 209 primer. Here is a shot of a sectioned case.
297600

I modified a countersink I found at Lowes to do the job in one pass. The drill cuts a .237" hole that makes for a press fit on a 209 and the countersink is ground to .330" to clear the rim of the primer. I just go straight through the spent primer and use a dial indicator to set the depth for the primer. Here is what the tool looks like:
297601
It works surprisingly well and I did at least a hundred like this. The 209 isn't well suited to higher pressures and will leak if you get too high. I use these mainly for smokeless to black type of loads for target shooting and haven't had any troubles. They push out just fine. Here is a shot of the lathe set-up.
297602
I can't say that it will work in your situation but it got that old brass working again. They definitely will light off the powder as the SD's on these are all very low and accuracy is at least as good as with standard primers. Good luck, Squid Boy

excellent info thank you !

[Squid Boy]

Gentlemen, I hope I can answer all your questions. I am an Army vet and got the name while working on a tuna boat long ago. It seems to have stuck with me. Yes, that V sectioned case is a Bertram. I think it had a split neck and so I used it to start so i wouldn't ruin a good one. I cut out the split for the picture. Once you get set-up it is easy to do a case every minute or so. Drilling through is the easiest part and once you "touchdown" with the recess cutter, you can just use the dial indicator to make the cut. I forget what I depth I used now but primers have different shapes and will need slightly different depths. What I found was that the 209's will leak around the center cap and the cup if pressures get too high. I know this was mentioned earlier in this thread. I haven't tried a whole lot of different primers in these as I have cut back on all my shooting to some extent with the shortages. They are certainly safe in BP and smokeless if you are careful. Thanks again for the welcome. Best Squid Boy

[ulav8r]

Based or Rbuck351's and Squid Boy's experiences, there should be little problem. There have been a couple of warnings about pressure leaks between the primer and outer sleeve. I think that would be more apt to be a problem if headspace were a little loose and much higher pressures than Indian Joe was planning on.

[Travisbishop]

This is one of those "Just because you can, don't mean you should" moments. It's been proven time and time again, anybody can modify most anything to do anything. But, you start screwing around with case heads on that level, you're asking for trouble. It's things like this that gave birth to SAMMI. Those cartridge case dimensions are not a suggestion. They exist for a reason. That reason being the containment of huge amounts of pressure being excerted onto really soft metal. All I see in the future of that is a flash cooked face when that gas starts jetting out of the bolt. Then the invention of new and exciting ways to extract case bodies from chambers after the heads start popping loose because of weakened case webs from all that drilling and material removal.

[M-Tecs]

It's things like this that gave birth to SAMMI. Those cartridge case dimensions are not a suggestion.

Actually SAAMI is nothing more than voluntary recommendations. Since it's founding in 1926 SAAMI has set voluntary standards for firearm chamber, throat and bore and groove dimensions. Same for ammunition manufactures. This allows for safe interchangeability for commercial ammunition/firearm manufactures.

Lots of the older more obsolete cartridges still in use and chambered today never received a SAAMI standard. New cartridges are commonly introduced well before the SAAMI standard is established.

SAAMI pressure standards are based around the weakest commonly available firearm. Good examples are the 45 Colt at 14,000 PSI and the 45/70 at 28,000 PSI. Tons of 45 Colt and 45/70 factory ammo that is over SAAMI specs are produced for firearms that are much stronger than the original 1873 Colt or Trapdoor Springfields.

[indian joe]

This is one of those "Just because you can, don't mean you should" moments. It's been proven time and time again, anybody can modify most anything to do anything. But, you start screwing around with case heads on that level, you're asking for trouble. It's things like this that gave birth to SAMMI. Those cartridge case dimensions are not a suggestion. They exist for a reason. That reason being the containment of huge amounts of pressure being excerted onto really soft metal. All I see in the future of that is a flash cooked face when that gas starts jetting out of the bolt. Then the invention of new and exciting ways to extract case bodies from chambers after the heads start popping loose because of weakened case webs from all that drilling and material removal.

was gonna answer this - waste of time I think - did ya read the question - nope! - blackpowder loads was specified

[rbuck351]

Today I was removing and resizing shotgun primer cups to use as muzzle loader caps. I was using a magnet to remove the steel outer cases from a box of the cups. I found that about half of the cups stuck to the magnet. Not sure what brand uses the steel primer cups as I was using several different brands of primers. I think a steel cup and steel outer shell should handle any normal rifle pressure, probably even higher than a brass primer. So far my testing has only been to around 45,000cup, but I will be testing further when I figure out whinch primers have steel cups.

[indian joe]

Today I was removing and resizing shotgun primer cups to use as muzzle loader caps. I was using a magnet to remove the steel outer cases from a box of the cups. I found that about half of the cups stuck to the magnet. Not sure what brand uses the steel primer cups as I was using several different brands of primers. I think a steel cup and steel outer shell should handle any normal rifle pressure, probably even higher than a brass primer. So far my testing has only been to around 45,000cup, but I will be testing further when I figure out whinch primers have steel cups.

not sure I understood this ------so you are pulling the primer cup from the outer case using a magnet????? ----this is live shotgun primers ? or fired ones???

[15meter]

Dunno where this should go so trying here
I have bucket loads of shotgun primers left me by my Dad (from trap shooting days) - rifle primers are escalating in price along with everything else and I am head scratching how to utilise these and save a buck without doing me bodily harm

I could tool up to bore out the primer pockets on a batch of cases to take the shotgun primers (time consuming but not so difficult) and this seems like it works ok with brass shotgun cases reformed for things like 450/577 and even the 45/75 - blackpowder only loads of course.

Anybody got a lead on this? - done it? - any ideas why its not a smart plan ? 15,000 primers just sitting there, cost me nothing.
cheers all.
Joe

Did you ever get around to this? Curious if it worked for you.

[john.k]

Separating the cups and anvils ......once upon a time ,like the 1960s,shotgun primers as bought were just the charged cups......the outer part was called a "tubular anvil" and had to be saved from the spent shell,or you could buy tubular anvils separately .....(This may not apply in the US,what we had here was Eley ammunition ,made by ICI)

[indian joe]

Separating the cups and anvils ......once upon a time ,like the 1960s,shotgun primers as bought were just the charged cups......the outer part was called a "tubular anvil" and had to be saved from the spent shell,or you could buy tubular anvils separately .....(This may not apply in the US,what we had here was Eley ammunition ,made by ICI)

am familiar with Eley ammo - spent half my shooting life fighting a flinch acquired as a kid shooting ounce and a quarter ICIL SPECIAL's (chasing roos out of the crop with a mad uncle - I bet we ruined more crop in the chase than they would have ate)

[wrcook45-70]

Way back in the day..... i had a Martini-Henry, long before IMA had them. I finally found some brass, and it was Berdan primed. I drilled out he primer pockets to the dimension of the shotgun primer, and loaded them with black. I fired quite a few, and reloaded them numerous times without any ill effects. I think my chargewas about 60 grains and wadded on top.

[augercreek]

I have milled out a 223 and 221 FB cases to fit a 209 shot shell primer to a snug fit but could easily knock out the primer with a small brass rod. This set up was so I could shoot 17 and 22 caliber pellets from my centerfire (no powder, just the 209 blast). It was a fun little project that made for a nice quiet back yard critter get’r. But reloading it was more work than I cared for.

I have done this very thing with 30-30 cases and use wax bullets no powder. Shoot quite well in the basement no noise to speak of.

[BLAHUT]

50 CAL. INLINE 209 PRIMER 30 GR BLACKHORN 209 500 GR BULLET PURE LEAD 5 SHOTS ONE RAGED HOLE AT 100 YDs

[barnetmill]

Many years ago I used shotgun bedan primers to load .254 inch 7.62x54 russian cases. I was using cast bullets. The problem was that the military strength firing pin of the mosin carbine that I had was punching a hole clean through the that very thin shotgun primer. It did not create and serious problems, but that particular carbine that had and SA mark on it from the factory had a bad barrel and one it heated that groups veered off to the left many inches at 50 yards. got rid of that rifle. I am not sure if that is an issue with 209 primers and a super strong firing pin.

[John F.]

Years ago, I read an extensive thread (possibly here?) on converting 8x56R Berdan primed brass for 209 primers, back when the M95 Straight-pull
Mannlicher rifles were not common and the original Austrian ammo had not flooded the country. There were no boxer primed cases available as I recall.
The writer reported very good results with cast bullets up to about 1600 fps using smokeless powder. Apparently he continued this practice for quite a while without any problems.
FWIW,
John

[M-Tecs]

The primer is not the weakest link in the shotgun pressure issues.

https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/important-information-about-shotshell-pressures.html

SAAMI tells us that whether using 2¾-inch or 3-inch 12-gauge loads, the maximum allowable pressure level of such shells is 11,500 psi. In this gauge and shell lengths, by the way, SAAMI provides for a mean average of 19,800 psi proof loads for proofing such barrels. So, I started by firing loads which developed 20,000 psi in the test Remington 870 barrels. Nothing happened. I increased the pressure level to 25,000 psi; nothing happened. I continued increasing the pressure by 5,000 psi. Nothing happened even when the pressure level of the destructive testing load reached 50,000 psi! Finally, when I got to 55,000 psi I could get Remington 870 barrels chambered for 3-inch 12-gauge shells to blow up. And they would blow up spectacularly, banana-peeling into multiple segments forward of the chamber. Up until 55,000 psi the barrels wouldn’t even bulge. So we can conclude, at least, that’s how smart Remington is in building super-strong shotgun barrels to withstand excessive pressure levels.

[barnetmill]

Actually SAAMI is nothing more than voluntary recommendations. Since it's founding in 1926 SAAMI has set voluntary standards for firearm chamber, throat and bore and groove dimensions. Same for ammunition manufactures. This allows for safe interchangeability for commercial ammunition/firearm manufactures.

Lots of the older more obsolete cartridges still in use and chambered today never received a SAAMI standard. New cartridges are commonly introduced well before the SAAMI standard is established.

SAAMI pressure standards are based around the weakest commonly available firearm. Good examples are the 45 Colt at 14,000 PSI and the 45/70 at 28,000 PSI. Tons of 45 Colt and 45/70 factory ammo that is over SAAMI specs are produced for firearms that are much stronger than the original 1873 Colt or Trapdoor Springfields.
I do know that trade associations that set standards have been adopted by osha to regulate industries. In the USA we do not have a government proofing house and Saami specs are all there is and as stated I do not believe have force of law. But in a civil tort case I am guessing if some ammo manufacturer exceeds the loading resulting in injury, they better be able to defend it in court.

[indian joe]

FWIW
The rifle I proposed doing this with is a brand new 1886 winchester with BLACKPOWDER loads ---the safety margin on that outfit is gi normous
next would be a model 92 in 38/40, again blackpowder in a strong action

[M-Tecs]

I do know that trade associations that set standards have been adopted by osha to regulate industries. In the USA we do not have a government proofing house and Saami specs are all there is and as stated I do not believe have force of law. But in a civil tort case I am guessing if some ammo manufacturer exceeds the loading resulting in injury, they better be able to defend it in court.

Buffalo Bore, Garrett and others specialize in and load many over SAAMI loads.

One example here http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570420tech.html

Garrett's 45-70 +P Hammerhead Ammo

420-gr SuperHardCast gas-checked Hammerhead at 1850-fps*

THIS AMMO IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN THE FOLLOWING MODERN FIREARMS: MARLIN, HENRY, SHILOH SHARPS, PEDERSOLI SHARPS, ENCORE, NEF, H&R, BROWNING, RUGER, AND WINCHESTER RIFLES. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THIS AMMO BE FIRED IN ANY TRAPDOOR SPRINGFIELDS OR ANY OTHER FIREARMS NOT LISTED HERE!

Energy: 3200 ft/lbs: Taylor Knockout Value: 51; Meplat: .330”;
Chamber Pressure: 35,000-cup; Brinnell Hardness: 25;
Trajectory: +3” @ 100-yds, ZERO @ 160-YDS, -10” @ 225-YDS