So what's this 45. Special?

[tayous1]

I saw an ad for them a few days ago and wanted to know if anyone has used this round also why did they come up with this round? Last is it used in 45 ACP or 45 LC?

[Char-Gar]

It is basically a 45 ACP case drawn with a 45 Colt head and rim. It was developed by the Cowboy shooters to wanted to use very light loads in the 45 Colt revolvers. Run it through a 45 ACP die and it does very well in SA revolvers with 45 ACP cylinders. It does the same thing as the 45 Auto Rim, you don't have to mill the back of the ACP cylinder for that big thick AR rim.

I load the 45 Cowboy Special for the ACP cylinder of my Italian Colt SA clone. The 45 Colt cylinder has .457 throats and the ACP cylinder has .453 throats. I load 242 grains Keith SWCs sized .452 over 4.5 grains of Bullseye. These loads shoot to the sights, are very accuracy and have plenty of thump at the target.

[tayous1]

It is basically a 45 ACP case drawn with a 45 Colt head and rim. It was developed by the Cowboy shooters to wanted to use very light loads in the 45 Colt revolvers. Run it through a 45 ACP die and it does very well in SA revolvers with 45 ACP cylinders. It does the same thing as the 45 Auto Rim, you don't have to mill the back of the ACP cylinder for that big thick AR rim.

I load the 45 Cowboy Special for the ACP cylinder of my Italian Colt SA clone. The 45 Colt cylinder has .457 throats and the ACP cylinder has .453 throats. I load 242 grains Keith SWCs sized .452 over 4.5 grains of Bullseye. These loads shoot to the sights, are very accuracy and have plenty of thump at the target.

Okay so I did read the article right about it. So my guess is that the 45 special is more accurate then a light 45 LC? Thanks for the information at first I thought it was a typo when I saw the ad to had to look it up. Then got more confused with the article I read about it.

[Castaway]

What is the advantage of it over a 45 Schofield?

[sharps4590]

Probably none, ballistically.

[tayous1]

Probably none, ballistically.

How about accuracy?

[gwpercle]

How about accuracy?

It's like shooting 38 Special in 357 Magnum chamber . The shortened 45 Colt case is easier to eject cleanly & quickly and the smaller case is better for small charges of fast powder ...
In Cowboy Competition guilt edged accuracy isn't as critical as speed .
45 Schofield accomplishes the same thing ...shorter than 45 Colt ... 45 Special , shorter than 45 Schofield . Could be a good use for old 45 Colt Cases with cracked mouth ... cut them down and wah-lah ...
45 Special !
Gary

[Ramguy]

I just started a similar thread on CB about this today! I am making them out of cut down .45 LC blank cases. The blanks have an aggressive crimp on them and it’d be pretty hard to use a once fired blank case to conventionally load a LC round. So…. I cut the crimp off and trim the cases to 45acp length and then load them in my 550 with acp dies and a 45LC shellplate. My load is pretty modest 3.5 gr Bullseye pushing a 230 cast LRN. Very pleasant in all my LC and ACP revolvers including a S&W 625 and Mod 25. I hope to list some very soon in S&S.

[Kosh75287]

I wonder how the .45 Spl. and .45 Schofield brass function through lever action and pump-action rifles.

[Castaway]

Sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

[alamogunr]

I just started a similar thread on CB about this today! I am making them out of cut down .45 LC blank cases. The blanks have an aggressive crimp on them and it’d be pretty hard to use a once fired blank case to conventionally load a LC round. So…. I cut the crimp off and trim the cases to 45acp length and then load them in my 550 with acp dies and a 45LC shellplate. My load is pretty modest 3.5 gr Bullseye pushing a 230 cast LRN. Very pleasant in all my LC and ACP revolvers including a S&W 625 and Mod 25. I hope to list some very soon in S&S.

The few blank cases I've run into had enlarged flash holes. I can't imagine that it would be a problem with the light loads listed but might be in unaltered cases.

[scattershot]

Sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
That’s pretty much my take on it, as well.

[herian67]

The 45 specials work fine in my Rossi 92.

[Char-Gar]

Sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

That is for the most part true, UNLESS you are one of those folks who want to shoot a light compressed load of black powder in a 45 Colt revolver. A "boutique" use of a cartridge case for sure, but still.....there it is.

[Larry Gibson]

The problem [it does exist]; SASS rules require a rimmed cartridge for use in SAs. 45 Colt level SASS (cowboy action) loads are very small charges of powder under light weight bullets giving 400 - 600 fps which leaves a lot of air space in the 45 Colt cartridge.

The solution; Many use 45 Schofield cases in the 45 Colt chambers. It was found the SAs with the 45 ACP cylinders with ACP cases were much more efficient and usually more accurate. However, the 45 ACP, being rimless, was not allowed. Some trimmed 45 Colt and 45 Scofield cases back to 45 ACP length and the cartridge was approved for SASS matches and became known as the 45 Cowboy Special, 45 American and a couple other names.

While I have a few 45 Cowboy cases for test purposes I just use 45 ACP in my Uberti Evil Roy with the 45 ACP cylinder. I probably shoot more ACPs in it than Colts. I don't compete so the rimless cartridge doesn't matter. I use the same bullets in my 45 ACPs as I do My 45 Colts so using a bit less powder for the same performance works for me. Also, it's easier to crank out the ACP on the SDB than 45 Colt because I FL size the Colts on a single stage with an old RCBS steel die first then finish loading on the SDB. I use the 45 Colt in the SA when I carry the '73 Uberti Winchester also.

If the problem and solution don't exist for you then nothing to be concerned about.

[Earl54]

Have a 2.5in Bond arms Rough Neck 45acp. Made a rim cut and I have a 45acp/45 cowboy chamber. I like a rim for extraction of fired cases. Load a accurate molds 45-225w cause it will make a bit of a slap when it hits. 2 shots will do at arms length, when you don't want to carry a gun.

[bigwagon]

That is for the most part true, UNLESS you are one of those folks who want to shoot a light compressed load of black powder in a 45 Colt revolver. A "boutique" use of a cartridge case for sure, but still.....there it is.

+1. IMO that why I use 45 S&W now in my antique Colt SAA and if I wanted to reduce the charge even further, 45 Special would be a good way to go. Preferable to using wads and fillers IMO to otherwise reduce the charge.

[Baltimoreed]

296851
Shorter schofield brass with 255 gr swc will run in my .45colt ‘94 Marlins and one of my uberti 1873s. Don’t know about the other as it’s getting worked on. The reason I use the shorter Schofield loads is to be able to squeeze 10 rds in the magazine in my short rifles. None of my .45colt rifles work with cowboy special loads unless I seat the bullet way out. I put this together to look like a Centennial 1876 but it’s a ‘73, with the shorter mag and the way it’s mounted it will only hold 10 short loads.

[Castaway]

Knowing little about Cowboy Action shooting, I’m surprised it’s allowed. I do know costumes have to be “authentic”, firearms must be period correct, and if they belch smoke, so much the better. It seems to me, the 45 Special goes against the spirit of the game, being designed to load black powder but with recoil reduced to the point a slicked up 73 has the recoil approaching that of a BB gun. Alas, I don’t compete in the sport, but if I did, I’d use the existing rules to be somewhat more competitive.

[Char-Gar]

I am probably delusional, but I have convinced myself that a rimed case (45 Cowboy) in my SA 45 ACP cylinders will give more positive and uniform primer ignition that an ACP case that headspaces on the front of case. I not putting any money on this theory or have any targets to prove it, but there you have it.

[Johnny_Cyclone]

If I had a dollar for every SAA style 45 ACP cylinder that was modified to take 45 Auto Rim to meet the SASS rim requirement prior to .45 Cowboy Special coming out, I'd have a new roof on my shop.

[StrawHat]

In my S&W double action 45 ACP revolvers I use ACP cartridges in moon clips or 45 Auto Rim cartridge. In my 45 ACP single action revolvers, I use ACP cartridges or 45 Cowboy Special cartridges. (It is nice to have choices!)

For all three cartridges, I use the same reloading dies and recipes, just different shell holders.

And, I am having a cylinder cut for the 45 S&W Special cartridge for my New Century revolver.

Kevin

[ddixie884]

That is cool. Sort of a 1907 Trials gun tribute.......

[StrawHat]

That is cool. Sort of a 1907 Trials gun tribute.......

Exactly! I read about the trials and how S&W created the new cartridge and revolver for it. They had high hopes the Army and therefore the general population was going to accept them both. Unfortunately, the Army nipped that thought in the bud. The silver lining is the general population loved the New Century revolver.

There are only two of the 45 S&W Special revolvers in existence. I have a New Century 455 that was poorly converted to 45 long Colt. I also have a 38 S&W Special, N frame cylinder that will be sent off to be bore and chambered for the 45 S&W Special cartridge. Then, the fun begins working up a load.

Just to be perfectly clear. The 45 S&W Special is NOT the same as the 45 Cowboy Special. Two different cartridges.

Kevin

[ddixie884]

Yes close but no cigar..........

[Dale53]

The .45 Cowboy Special works really well in the .45 ACP cylinder of my convertible SS Ruger Bisley (.45 ACP/.45 Colt). It allows use of any bullet that has a crimp groove (better performing wide meplat bullets as a for instance). I find the .45 Cowboy Special cases very useful for particular uses.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[Mackay Sagebrush]

Sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

These are 5 shot 50 yard groups using a 200 grain SWC at 935 FPS.

https://i.imgur.com/yXKVWv0.jpg?1

With the short case, the powder sits more uniformly and the accuracy is readily apparent.



Perhaps people should get some actual experience before they cast stones...

[DougGuy]

These are 5 shot 50 yard groups using a 200 grain SWC at 935 FPS.

With the short case, the powder sits more uniformly and the accuracy is readily apparent.

I was just thinking about one of the biggest gains of the rimmed cartridge is that you can use whatever type of crimp you like. In Mackay's photos two things are apparent. 1st the groups, the excellent groups, but the part of the photo that got my attention was the bulge that shows a good deal of case neck tension which will add resistance not unlike unrolling a good roll crimp. I am sure this is a contributing factor in the group sizes.

[Baltimoreed]

C45S should be a dandy revolver round. My 625 45acp is a super shooter. They are basically the same .45 case, one with and one without a rim. I have some brass but haven’t experimented with any yet.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Hey one thing folks are over-looking, those are CUTE cartridges in Mackay’s pic.
The proportions just look right.
And getting 200 grains of boolit in the 900’s is a very useful and shootable thing for a 4” gun.

Looking at those 50 yard groups. He’s got all the parts working right.
Good looking gun too.

[bisleyfan41]

The .45 Cowboy Special works really well in the .45 ACP cylinder of my convertible SS Ruger Bisley (.45 ACP/.45 Colt). It allows use of any bullet that has a crimp groove (better performing wide meplat bullets as a for instance). I find the .45 Cowboy Special cases very useful for particular uses.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

This exactly. With the rim setting headspace in an ACP cylinder, you can roll crimp into the crimp groove of the heavier bullets intended for the 45C. Side benefit is the accuracy that Mackay illustrates.

[StrawHat]

C45S should be a dandy revolver round. My 625 45acp is a super shooter. They are basically the same .45 case, one with and one without a rim. I have some brass but haven’t experimented with any yet.

Baltimoreed,

I just got around to re-reading this thread. I believe you may have confused a thing or two. Yes, the 45 Cowboy Special and the 45 ACP share basic dimensions. They also share those same dimensions with the 45 Auto Rim. Where they differ is in the rim. The ACP, is rimless. The Cowboy Special and the Auto Rim both have rims but they vary in thickness.

Your S&W Model 625 is set up for the 45 ACP cartridge and moon clips. The dimension from the muzzle end of the moon clip to the rear of the case head is duplicated by the dimension of the rim on the 45 AR.

The 45 Cowboy Special is for use in ACP cylinders that do not require moon clips for extraction.

Kevin

[rockrat]

My S&W 25-2 has tight headspace I suspect. The 45AR cases drag on the recoil shield, but I can use the 45 special cases and everything works just fine.

[knifemaker]

Char-Gar said:
I am probably delusional, but I have convinced myself that a rimed case (45 Cowboy) in my SA 45 ACP cylinders will give more positive and uniform primer ignition that an ACP case that headspaces on the front of case. I not putting any money on this theory or have any targets to prove it, but there you have it.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
You are correct. I cut down 45 scholfield cases to 45 acp length and use them in my Ruger Vaquero in 45acp caliber.301060

[Catshooter]

My S&W 25-2 has tight headspace I suspect. The 45AR cases drag on the recoil shield, but I can use the 45 special cases and everything works just fine.

If decent AR cases drag the recoil shield, and everything is clean with nothing under the extractor star, then yes, sounds like headspace.

Forty Five Specials have the same rim diameter as the .45 Colt, so what, .035 or .040 less than an Auto Rim case. Not a good idea to fire those in an Auto Rim chamber. All pistol cases slam into the chamber face/recoil shield during ignition but that's really giving them a running start.

Your gun, you do you. Just for info.

[Walks]

I load .45ACP & .45AR for S&W 1917's and Ruger Blackhawks.
.45Colt & .45S&W Schofield for Colts, Vaqueros/Blackhawks and Ubertis.
I just don't see the purpose to .45special. So you can load the cases by mating up a .45Colt shell holder and .45ACP dies.
For featherweight black powder loads, maybe....
I can only see this being useful to the few remaining Cowboy Shooters.
Unless you just want something else to "play" with.

[StrawHat]

My S&W 25-2 has tight headspace I suspect. The 45AR cases drag on the recoil shield, but I can use the 45 special cases and everything works just fine.




If decent AR cases drag the recoil shield, and everything is clean with nothing under the extractor star, then yes, sounds like headspace.

Forty Five Specials have the same rim diameter as the .45 Colt, so what, .035 or .040 less than an Auto Rim case. Not a good idea to fire those in an Auto Rim chamber. All pistol cases slam into the chamber face/recoil shield during ignition but that's really giving them a running start.

Your gun, you do you. Just for info.

Cat shooter,

The diameter of the rim has nothing to do with headspace. The 45 AR has a rim that is about .090”. The 45 Colt, and 45 Cowboy Special, rim is about .060”.

I suspect there is some dirt or powder under the extractor on the S&W Model 25-2. Either that or the poster is loading the Cowboy Special to a different length. If he is loading the cartridges to headspace on the mouth of the cartridge case, they should both work.

Kevin

[gunther]

Strawhat: Where did you find the info on the 1907 trials? Ought to be a good read. Thanks.

[Froogal]

Sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

Exactly!! If you don't like the recoil of a .45 Colt, then get something smaller.

[Soundguy]

So is 45 special a rimmed or a rimless cartridge, and what cylinder does it fit? one for 45 colt.. where it headspaces the rim.. or 45 acp and headspaces on the case mouth. So far I have read contradictory information on this.

[Dale53]

Actually,
In some circumstances, both.

1-use Cowboy Special cases for their original intention, a short case for light loads (both Black Powder and Smokeless in the revolvers chambered in .45 Colt.

2-Use in Single Action revolver cylinders chambered for .45 Colt AND .45 ACP. The Reason to use in the .45 ACP cylinder is if you want to use a bullet that requires a crimp groove. I prefer the CS case in my 45 ACP cylinder in my convertible Ruger Bisley when using the Lyman 452424 Keith 250 gr bullet.

3-Never use the CS case in a double action .45 ACP revolver (if you need a rimmed case in a double action .45 ACP, you will need an .45 Auto Rim case for proper headspace.

4-Special Circumstances:
Taurus built a .45 ACP revolver that did not have sufficient headspace to allow use of the Auto Rim cases. It utilized an extremely thin spring steel moonclip that fit nothing else. They actually were a nice, lightweight, 4” barreled Trail or Carry gun, but were quite specialized and were counter to everything you see above. HOwever, it just so happened that the .45 CS headspaced perfectly in my Taurus and allowed me to use it like the original 1917 revolvers used the .45 Auto Rim cases.

FWIW
Dale53

[Soundguy]

I just don't see how you can use a rimmed 45colt style case in a cylinder made to headspace 45acp on the mouth. Seems like there will be excessive headspace between the cylinder face and recoil shield unless it's made for a moon clip..in which case..thete is no need for 45acp case mouth headspace?

And as for reduced loads..why not keep full case capacity...it lowers the pressure.

[15meter]

I wonder how the .45 Spl. and .45 Schofield brass function through lever action and pump-action rifles.

Waaay late to the thread, I've never shot the cowboy special brass in anything but when I started shooting cowboy about 15 years ago my first rifle was a Winchester 94 AE Trapper in 45 Colt. Unfortunately the magazine only held 9 rounds. I had to load the tenth on the line or take a penalty for a missed target.

Figured out that 10 Schofield's would fit in the magazine, they fed just fine.

Eventually picked up a Uberti 73 rifle in 45 Colt, that solved the short magazine problem.

YMMV

[StrawHat]

…
3-Never use the CS case in a double action .45 ACP revolver (if you need a rimmed case in a double action .45 ACP, you will need an .45 Auto Rim case for proper headspace…

FWIW
Dale53…

Dale,

I rarely disagree with what you post but I don’t think you are seeing the picture. The length of the ACP, the AR and the CS are identical. If you can shoot ACP rounds in a double action revolver (Model 1917, Model 25-2, Model 22-4, etc) without using moonclips, why could the same length case be used regardless of rim, as long as it headspaces on the case mouth?

Kevin

[StrawHat]

I just don't see how you can use a rimmed 45colt style case in a cylinder made to headspace 45acp on the mouth. Seems like there will be excessive headspace between the cylinder face and recoil shield unless it's made for a moon clip..in which case..thete is no need for 45acp case mouth headspace?

And as for reduced loads..why not keep full case capacity...it lowers the pressure.


Again, headspace on the case mouth.

The 45 Cowboy Special was designed to provide enough smoke to qualify for a black powder round. A full case of black powder and a 200 grain bullet is a decent cartridge.

Kevin

[Soundguy]

How does it both headspace on a case mouth in a cyl made for acp AND have space for a RIM in that same cyl between the cyl and the recoil shield. If there is that much space...a regular acp round will float back and forth...alot!

[Baltimoreed]

Baltimoreed,

I just got around to re-reading this thread. I believe you may have confused a thing or two. Yes, the 45 Cowboy Special and the 45 ACP share basic dimensions. They also share those same dimensions with the 45 Auto Rim. Where they differ is in the rim. The ACP, is rimless. The Cowboy Special and the Auto Rim both have rims but they vary in thickness.

Your S&W Model 625 is set up for the 45 ACP cartridge and moon clips. The dimension from the muzzle end of the moon clip to the rear of the case head is duplicated by the dimension of the rim on the 45 AR.

The 45 Cowboy Special is for use in ACP cylinders that do not require moon clips for extraction.

Kevin
I reread this and got interested again so I got up and checked a c45s load in my 625 and as the case headspaces on the case mouth my c45s case also seats on the case mouth which puts it closer to my 625’s firing pin. Tomorrow I will check by trying to fire some and take some pix.

[Ziptar]

.45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length. It head spaces on the .45 ACP cylinder. Think of it as a .45 Auto Rim with a thinner rim.

The thinner rim is an advantage and actually solves a problem. The .45 Auto Rim can't be used. In .45 ACP Blackhawks and .45 Colt / .45 ACP Redhawk, S&W Governor and etc. The .45 Special can be used in them and eliminates the need for moon clips.

[Dale53]

Dale,

I rarely disagree with what you post but I don’t think you are seeing the picture. The length of the ACP, the AR and the CS are identical. If you can shoot ACP rounds in a double action revolver (Model 1917, Model 25-2, Model 22-4, etc) without using moonclips, why could the same length case be used regardless of rim, as long as it headspaces on the case mouth?

Kevin

Kevin;
We need a further clarification, here. You are correct that the .45 Cowboy Special brass headspaces on the case mouth and will work in the 1917 revolvers (and allow ejection) AS LONG AS YOU USE A TAPER CRIMP ON LOADED AMMUNITION. If, on the other hand, you wish to use heavier bullets with a crimp groove, and use a roll crimp, THEN the .45 Cowboy Special case should NOT be used in the 1917 double action revolvers (the roll crimp, while advisable with full charge heavier bullets, will interfere with proper headspace in the 1917 revolvers (in effect the roll crimp will allow the loaded round to seat further into the revolver cylinder than advisable. In effect, the rear of the case head would be further from the recoil shield than advisable.

I hope that clarifies the confusion.

FWIW
Dale53

[Piedmont]

I just don't see how you can use a rimmed 45colt style case in a cylinder made to headspace 45acp on the mouth. Seems like there will be excessive headspace between the cylinder face and recoil shield unless it's made for a moon clip..in which case..thete is no need for 45acp case mouth headspace?

And as for reduced loads..why not keep full case capacity...it lowers the pressure.

Let me try to answer these. The auto rim has a rim around .090" as I remember. A normal rimmed case is about .060". So if you use an ACP length .060" rimmed case you now get to roll crimp (so the headspacing mouth isn't a consideration) and the rim serves for headspacing. It works fine for a single action set up with the .060" gap. The S&W revolvers are set up for .090" between the breach face and the rear of the cylinder. A Blackhawk or other SA is set for .060" in the same area.
As for why use the short case? You are right about the pressure but if you aren't pushing loads the smaller cases burn smaller charges much more consistently shot-to-shot so tend to be accurate.
Moon clips won't work in single actions because even if you cut them to work (allow additional thickness), you would have to take out the cylinder from the gun every time you wanted to reload.

[StrawHat]

Kevin;
We need a further clarification, here. You are correct that the .45 Cowboy Special brass headspaces on the case mouth and will work in the 1917 revolvers (and allow ejection) AS LONG AS YOU USE A TAPER CRIMP ON LOADED AMMUNITION. If, on the other hand, you wish to use heavier bullets with a crimp groove, and use a roll crimp, THEN the .45 Cowboy Special case should NOT be used in the 1917 double action revolvers (the roll crimp, while advisable with full charge heavier bullets, will interfere with proper headspace in the 1917 revolvers (in effect the roll crimp will allow the loaded round to seat further into the revolver cylinder than advisable. In effect, the rear of the case head would be further from the recoil shield than advisable.

I hope that clarifies the confusion.

FWIW
Dale53

Dale,

I understand what you are saying. I have loaded 454424 and 452423 in ACP cases with a taper crimp. Never had any bullet creep with reasonable loads. I don’t hotrod my Model 1917s but my Model 22-4 has seen a few loads in the 45 Super range. Neck tension is a big asset in loading the ACP cartridge.

Kevin